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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, July 29, 2007

2002 Results: Two Shortstops (Trammell and Smith) and One Pitcher (Stieb) Are Now Hall of Meriters!

In his first year of eligibility, Tiger All-Star Alan Trammell scored an impressive 86% of all possible points for induction into the Hall of Merit.

Close behind him was fielding legend Ozzie Smith with a very strong 85% of all possible points in also his ballot debut.

Last but not least was Blue Jay great Dave Stieb as he became our third inductee this “year.” In his fifth year of eligibility, he received 27% of all possible points.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Pete Browning (almost looks like a sure bet in 2003!), Roger Bresnahan, Charley Jones, Bob Johnson, Andre Dawson (fine debut!), Cannonball Dick Redding and Tony Perez (back in the top-ten!).

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Alan Trammell           1011   48  18 14  4  2  1  4     1  2  2               
 2  n/e  Ozzie Smith              999   48  18 14  3  1  2  3  2  2  2              1   
 3    5  Dave Stieb               314   24   1     3     3  1  1  2  3  1  1  4  2     2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4    4  Pete Browning            300   19      2  4  2  1  1  1  3  1  1  1  1        1
 5    8  Roger Bresnahan          271   19      1  2  2  1  2  3  2  1  1  1     2  1   
 6    6  Charley Jones            270   18   4        1  2  2  1  1  1  2  1  1  1  1   
 7    9  Bob Johnson              250   19            2  4  3  2     2  1  2  2        1
 8  n/e  Andre Dawson             235   18         1  2  1  4  2  1     1  2  1  1  2   
 9    7  Cannonball Dick Redding  232   14   1  2  2  2  1     2        1  2  1         
10   14  Tony Perez               230   17   1     2  4  1     1     1     1  1  1  1  3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   10  Hugh Duffy               222   17   1        3  2  1  2     1     1  3  2  1   
12   12  Kirby Puckett            214   16      1     1  5  2     1        3     1  1  1
13   17  Tommy Leach              211   15         1  2  3  1  1  2  1  2  1     1      
14   11  Bucky Walters            210   15            3  3  3  2  1     1           2   
15   13  Gavvy Cravath            206   18      2     1        1  1  2  2  2  1  2  1  3
16   15  Alejandro Oms            186   15   1     1  2        1     1  2  2  2  1     2
17   16  George Van Haltren       181   12   1  1  1  1  1     1  2  1  1     1     1   
18   21  Graig Nettles            161   15         1           1  1  3  2  1  1  2  1  2
19   19  Luis Tiant               155   13         1  1  1     1  2  2        1  1  1  2
20   18  John McGraw              149    8         5  1     1                       1   
21   25T Mickey Welch             145   10      1  1  2     1  1        2     1        1
22   25T Lou Brock                144   10      2  1        1     1  1  1     2     1   
23   24  Bus Clarkson             144    9      1  2     2        1  1  1     1         
24   23  Reggie Smith             140   12                  1  3  3        2  1  1  1   
25   28  Burleigh Grimes          134   12         1  1     1  2        1     1     2  3
26   33  Norm Cash                130   11         1     1  1  1  1  1        1  2  1  1
27   31T Rusty Staub              129   11               1  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1   
28   20  Tommy Bridges            129    9            2  2  1  2     1           1      
29   36  Vic Willis               124    9      1  1     1  1        1  1     1  2      
30   29  Orlando Cepeda           122   11            1  1     2  1  1           2  2  1
31   22  Dizzy Dean               111    7      2  1     1              1        2      
32   27  Phil Rizzuto             110    9                  2  3        1  1  1  1      
33   34  Larry Doyle              106    8         1  3           1              1     2
34   31T Ken Singleton            103   10         1           1     1        3  1  2  1
35   30  Dave Concepción           97    8            1  1  1     1  1     1     1     1
36   35  Dale Murphy               91    9                  1  1        2  1     2  2   
37   37  Bobby Bonds               89    9                  3                 2     2  2
38   39  Bob Elliott               87    9                        2  1     2  1     2  1
39   44T Tommy John                87    6         1     1  1  1           2            
40   38  Ben Taylor                80    7         1              1     1  1  1  1  1   
41   41  Dave Bancroft             80    6         1        1     1  1     1     1      
42   40  Pie Traynor               78    7         1              1  2              1  2
43   46  Carl Mays                 76    7               2        1     1        1     2
44   43  Wally Schang              71    6      1        1              1        1  1  1
45   42  Elston Howard             67    6            1        1        1  1  1        1
46   44T Chuck Klein               64    5      1     1                    1        2   
47   47T Vern Stephens             62    5            1              2  1  1            
48   59  Frank Tanana              59    4      1           2                          1
49   49  Don Mattingly             54    5   1                             1        2  1
50   50  Sal Bando                 49    5                           1  1  1  1     1   
51T  47T Bill Monroe               46    4                  1     1     1           1   
51T  51  Lance Parrish             46    4                        1  1  1  1            
53   54  Frank Chance              45    4            1              1     1           1
54T  52  Addie Joss                45    3   1                       1        1         
54T  68  Rick Reuschel             45    3         1                 1  1               
56   55  Wilbur Cooper             43    3      1                 1                 1   
57T  58  Buddy Bell                42    4                        1  1        1  1      
57T  57  Lefty Gomez               42    4                     1  1              1  1   
59   61  Ernie Lombardi            41    3         1                 1              1   
60   60  Tony Oliva                40    2   1           1                              
61   62T Thurman Munson            36    3                     1        2               
62T  65T Tony Mullane              33    3                        2                 1   
62T  65T Urban Shocker             33    3                  1        1                 1
64   62T Don Newcombe              32    3                     1           1     1      
65   53  Ed Williamson             32    2         1                       1            
66   64  Sam Rice                  31    3                     1           1        1   
67   56  George J. Burns           30    3                              1  1  1         
68   69  Rabbit Maranville         28    3                        1           1        1
69   82  Ron Cey                   24    3                              1           1  1
70T  86  Jim Kaat                  24    2                        1     1               
70T  70  Jimmy Ryan                24    2                           2                  
72   73T Jack Quinn                23    2            1                                1
73   76  Ed Cicotte                23    1      1                                       
74   75  Jack Clark                22    2               1                             1
75   84T Bill Mazeroski            22    1         1                                    
76   73T Bruce Sutter              21    2                              1  1            
77T  77  Frank Howard              20    2                              1     1         
77T  67  Johnny Pesky              20    2                              1     1         
79   84T Dizzy Trout               19    2                        1                    1
80   92T Fred Dunlap               17    2                                    1  1      
81   83  Brian Downing             17    1            1                                 
82T  71T Jim Rice                  16    2                                    1     1   
82T  78  Dave Parker               16    2                                       2      
82T  79  Al Rosen                  16    2                                 1           1
82T  71T Bobby Veach               16    2                                       2      
86   80  Luis Aparicio             16    1               1                              
87   87T Sam Leever                13    1                        1                     
88   87T Hack Wilson               11    1                              1               
89T  90T Fielder Jones             10    1                                 1            
89T  90T Leroy Matlock             10    1                                 1            
89T  92T Jack Morris               10    1                                 1            
92T  94T Jim Fregosi                9    1                                    1         
92T  87T Tony Lazzeri               9    1                                    1         
94T n/e  Charlie Hough              8    1                                       1      
94T  94T George Kell                8    1                                       1      
94T  96T Mickey Vernon              8    1                                       1      
97T n/e  Dutch Leonard              7    1                                          1   
97T  96T Bill Madlock               7    1                                          1   
99T  99T Dick Lundy                 6    1                                             1
99T  99T Al Oliver                  6    1                                             1
99T n/e  Gene Tenace                6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Levi Meyerle(96T), Carlos Morán(81), Mike Tiernan(99T).
Ballots Cast: 49

Thanks to OCF and Ron Wargo for their help making sure that the tally is correct.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 29, 2007 at 04:27 PM | 120 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:02 AM (#2462356)
Congrats to Alan, Ozzie and Dave!

If Max had been able to get his ballot in on time, Browning would have won. But no big deal, since Pete has an excellent shot in '03.

HOF-not-HOM through 2002

Meaning
all of the members of the HOF-not-HOM as of 2002not 2007.

1  Aparicio
Luis
2. Bancroft
Dave
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Brock
Lou
7  Cepeda
Orlando
8  Chance
Frank
9  Chesbro
Jack
10 Combs
Earle
11 Cuyler
Kiki
12 Dandridge
Ray
13 Day
Leon
14 Dean
Dizzy
15 Duffy
Hugh
16 Evers
Johnny
17 Ferrell
Rick
18 Gomez
Lefty
19 Grimes
Burleigh
20 Hafey
Chick
21 Haines
Jesse
22 Hooper
Harry
23 Hoyt
Waite
24 Hunter
Catfish
25 Jackson
Travis
26 Johnson
Judy
27 Joss
Addie
28 Kell
George
29 Kelly
George
30 Klein
Chuck
31 Lazzeri
Tony
32 Lindstrom
Freddie
33 Lombardi
Ernie
34 Manush
Heinie
35 Maranville
Rabbit
36 Marquard
Rube
37 Mazeroski
Bill
38 McCarthy
Tommy
39 McGraw
John 
40 Pennock
Herb
41 Perez
Tony
42 Puckett
Kirby  
43 Rice
Sam
44 Rizzuto
Phil
45 Schalk
Ray
46 Schoendienst
Red
47 Smith
Hilton
48 Tinker
Joe
49 Traynor
Pie
50 Waner
Lloyd
51 Welch
Mickey
52 Willis
Vic
53 Wilson
Hack
54 Youngs
Ross

HOM
-not-HOF

Meaning
all of the members of the HOM-not-HOF as of 2002not 2007.

1  Allen
Dick 
2  Barnes
Ross
3  Beckwith
John
4  Bennett
Charlie
5  Blyleven
Bert
6  Boyer
Ken
7  Brown
Ray
8  Brown
Willard
9  Carter
Gary
10 Caruthers
Bob
11 Childs
Cupid
12 Dahlen
Bill
13 Evans
Darrell
14 Evans
Dwight
15 Ferrell
Wes
16 Freehan
Bill
17 Glasscock
Jack
18 Gordon
Joe
19 Gore
George
20 Gossage
Rich
21 Grant
Frank
22 Grich
Bobby
23 Groh
Heinie
24 Hack
Stan
25 Hernandez
Keith
26 Hill
Pete
27 Hines
Paul
28 Jackson
Joe*
29 JohnsonHome Run
30 Keller
Charlie
31 Mackey
Biz
32 Magee
Sherry
33 McVey
Cal
34 Méndez
José
35 Minoso
Minnie
36 Moore
Dobie
37 Pearce
Dickey
38 Pierce
Billy
39 Pike
Lip
40 Randolph
Willie
41 Richardson
Hardy
42 Rose
Pete*
43 SantoRon
44 Santop
Louis
45 Sheckard
Jimmy
46 Simmons
Ted
47 Start
Joe
48 Stieb
Dave
49 Stovey
Harry
50 Suttles
Mule
51 Sutton
Ezra
52 Torre
Joe
53 Trammell
Alan
54 Trouppe
Quincy
55 Torriente
Cristobal
56 Whitaker
Lou
57 White
Deacon
58 Wilson
Jud
59 Wynn
Jimmy

*  not eligible for the HOF 
   2. OCF Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:04 AM (#2462358)
Consensus scores:

Highest possible: +5
Average: -8.7

These days, that's just a middling year. We elected two "frontloggers" and one backlogger. The fewer frontloggers, the worse the consensus scores.

Esteban Rivera: 0 (more precisely, +.27)
Howie Menckel: 0 (-.28)
Sean Gilman: 0
Mark Shirk: -1
Got Melky: -2
John Murphy: -2
Tom H: -3
Chris Fluit: -3
ronw: -3
...
OCF: -5 (in my 99th year as a voter)
...
Al Peterson: -8 (-7.53, median)
Chris Cobb: -8 (in his 100th year)
...
Adam Schafer: -13
mulder & scully: -13
Mark Donelson: -14
Tom D: -14
Rusty Priske: -14
rico vanian: -15
Rick A: -1
Eric Chalek: -18
EricC: -19
yest: -31 (-30.65)
karlmagnus: -31 (-30.68)
   3. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:07 AM (#2462361)
Wow. Leapfrogging to victory. And Tralee also knock-knock-knockin on the HOM's door.

Browning's third-place finish in 2003 isn't quite guaranteed as yet. The two guys behind him are coming up pretty fast...Max P's missed ballot or otherwise.
   4. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:07 AM (#2462362)
I'll ask. What makes Stieb so much better than Walters? They were nearly equal in my system, with Stieb having the slightest advantage. What are you guys seeing in Steib that Walters doesn't have?
   5. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:10 AM (#2462366)
Browning's third-place finish in 2003 isn't quite guaranteed as yet. The two guys behind him are coming up pretty fast...Max P's missed ballot or otherwise.


Since those two are Bresnahan and Jones, that would be perfectly fine with me. :-)
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:15 AM (#2462370)
Fair question.

ERA+ over 100, 1 IP per G
BWalters 168 52 46 40 27 23 07
DavStieb 171 45 43 38 35 30 24 17 13 11

BWalters top 10 in IP: 1 1 1 4 6 6 8 8
DavStieb top 10 in IP: 1 1 2 3 5

For me, it was years 7-8-9

Also, some defensive issues that helped Walters and hurt Stieb - more than usual, iirc, don't have my stuff on that handy at the moment...

Wow, I hit the Trammell-Smith-Stieb exacta by a nose!
decent payout, with OSmith the morning line favorite.

Wait I had Browning 4th, too!
Is there a horse racing name for that?
   7. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:17 AM (#2462373)
I think everyone got snookered by Stieb's high UER total in 1985. If I had known he was close, I would have mentioned it.
   8. Juan V Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:18 AM (#2462374)
Speaking of UER, that's a big point against Walters.

And I do consider them in my pitching system, by the way.
   9. Chris Cobb Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:19 AM (#2462376)
I'll ask. What makes Stieb so much better than Walters? They were nearly equal in my system, with Stieb having the slightest advantage. What are you guys seeing in Steib that Walters doesn't have?

For me it was value outside peak. Walters was a top-notch pitcher for about five years, but other than that he was pretty much average aside from his superior offense. Stieb was quite a bit above average even outside his peak.

I'm very surprised that Browning wasn't elected: his lead over Stieb in 2002 was substantial by our current standards. But year-to-year changes in who votes can't be predicted.
   10. OCF Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:19 AM (#2462377)
Not me, since I use RA instead of ERA anyway.

Howie hit the Trammell-Smith-Stieb exacta. I was the only other one with those three in elect-me positions: I had it Smith-Trammell-Stieb. But then after that, I didn't have any of Browning, Bresnahan, Jones, Johnson, Dawson, or Redding on my ballot.
   11. AJMcCringleberry Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:22 AM (#2462382)
Is there a horse racing name for that?

I think that's a Superfecta.
   12. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:23 AM (#2462384)
For me, what sticks out for Stieb over Walters is the ERA+, 122 to 115. Then when you consider that Walters pitched through the war, against the weaker competition, I feel pretty comfortable having Stieb ahead. But it's not that huge a gap - I had Stieb 12th and Walters 31st. (14-point margin, this one's not my fault.)
   13. yest Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:27 AM (#2462393)
yest: -31 (-30.65)
karlmagnus: -31 (-30.68)


I'm not sure which shocks me more this or Stieb getting in after his coming in 15th in his first election and thinking he was just a shiny new toy and would fade far into the backlog
   14. Esteban Rivera Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:30 AM (#2462401)
I'll ask. What makes Stieb so much better than Walters? They were nearly equal in my system, with Stieb having the slightest advantage. What are you guys seeing in Steib that Walters doesn't have?


Some possibilities:

1) Walters gets dinged for the defenses and war. Stieb did not get help from his team (as the story goes).

2) Stieb was seen by the voters, Walters was not.

3) Stieb is an uber-stat poster child, Walters is not, thus the "need" to go for Stieb.

4) There is no way there is no pitcher from the 80's decade that is worthy, so the uber-stats say Stieb is the best of the lot, we'll vote for him. (Granted, this is held against Concepcion, Traynor, Hodges, among others, but it helps Stieb. Why? Beats me.)

In the end enough voters liked him to get him over the hump (although to echo comments made about another candidate, less than a third of the electorate endoresed him. I doubt we'll get the clothes ripping, gnashing of teeth over Stieb that the other guy has been getting, however.) My personal taste for pitchers is more career than Stieb gave. Too many pitchers have similar careers to Stieb (the infamous Burnout City, population aplenty). The great ones last longer at that level or give you something useful besides that level for that length of time. Stieb reminds me of Eddie Rommel.

However, congrats to Dave Stieb. Lucky you pitched in the 80's. ;)

Oh, and sunnyday, if you're reading this, please come back. The HOM electorate is poorer for not having you active.
   15. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:31 AM (#2462404)
Useless trivia department(because I finally got around to posting an updated At-Bats file to the Yahoo group). Dave Stieb had as many At-Bats in his 1998 comeback as he did in the rest of his career - 1.
   16. Chris Fluit Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2462421)
Stieb getting in is a pleasant surprise.
   17. Howie Menckel Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:11 AM (#2462462)
unofficial all-time 'votes points' thru 2002 - those still eligible in 2003 election are in CAPS. electees are not in caps.

If GVH gets another 181 and Duffy gets another 222 in 2003, it would be 25856-25772-25737. Both might pass Beckley in 2004, but who's ahead - and then who wins at the 2007 wire? Browning gaining more than any of them, but too far back to matter... Welch still chasing Griffith and Waddell in the all-time pitching battle... Cravath the 25th member of the 10,000-vote pt club, Walters will be 26th and last... "Top 40" fans can enjoy their newest hit, Bob Johnson, who figures to climb the charts nicely in coming weeks.

TOP 50, ALL-TIME
Beckley.... 25856
VAN HALTREN 25591.5
DUFFY...... 25515.5
BROWNING... 23507.5
Childs..... 18484
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
WELCH...... 17486
Jennings... 16976
REDDING.... 16028

CJONES..... 15558
BRESNAHAN.. 14288
Sisler..... 13892
TLEACH..... 13759
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
Mendez..... 12555
RYAN....... 12418.5
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005

Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
CRAVATH.....10078
Beckwith.... 9896
HStovey......9576
WALTERS......9534
DOYLE....... 8986
Mackey.......8930

GRIMES.......8427
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
BJOHNSON.....7519

Trouppe......7494
OMS..........7272
WFerrell.....7259
BMONROE......7190
CBell........6968
MCGRAW.......6587
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
Sheckard.....6377
SCHANG.......6244

Others in active top 50
Williamson 6046, Willis 4945, Dean 4534, Joss 4337, Elliott 4276, BTaylor 3745, Bridges 3685, FChance 3449, McCormick 3148x, CMays 3096, Traynor 3074, SRice 3042, Cicotte 2913, NCash 2839, Cepeda 2814, Tiernan 2692X, Rizzuto 2675, FJones 2543, TPerez 2503, Veach 2238, Brock 2221, Klein 2141, GJBurns 2115, Mullane 2044, Stephens 2011, EHoward 1910, Dunlap 1909, Lombardi 1861, Poles 1842x, Tiant 1841, Hooper 1792x, MGriffin 1726.5x
   18. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:34 AM (#2462498)
Who left Ozzie off?
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:36 AM (#2462504)
I guess the better question is who left Alan off, or did we already know that?
;
   20. yest Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:37 AM (#2462510)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Willie McCovey, Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Catfish Hunter, Ray Dandridge
1988
Willie Stargell
1989
Johnny Bench, Carl Yastrzemski, Red Schoendienst
1990
Jim Palmer , Joe Morgan
1991
Rod Carew, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri
1992
Tom Seaver, Rollie Fingers<,b>, <b>Hal Newhouser
1993
Reggie Jackson
1994
Steve Carlton, Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Mike Schmidt, Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Phil Niekro, Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
Don Sutton, George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Robin Yount, Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Carlton Fisk, Tony Perez, Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Dave Winfield, Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2002
Ozzie Smith
2003
Gary Carter
2006
Bruce Sutter, Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   21. Chris Cobb Posted: July 31, 2007 at 04:35 AM (#2462572)
Who left Ozzie off?

I guess the better question is who left Alan off, or did we already know that?


Well, karlmagnus and yest had to do something equal and opposite to achieve such low but equal consensus scores, didn't they?
   22. Howie Menckel Posted: July 31, 2007 at 04:47 AM (#2462581)
How do I hit the "superfecta" and STILL not win a consensus title?
lol

and what are those all-time standings, anyway.

I think I floundered in the 1950s like the Yankees did from the mid-1960s-1970s, but overall we've been a consistent franchise I think.
:)
   23. OCF Posted: July 31, 2007 at 05:42 AM (#2462603)
All-time standings? I can do this in several ways.

First, my data only go back to 1921. What I've done is subtract the mean consensus score for each year from the individual score. For this post, I've sorted by the average of that - not including in the average any years in which the voter in question didn't participate. (And yes, Dan R, the standard deviation varies from year to year and I haven't adjusted for that.) Here are 51 voters: the 49 who voted in 2002 plus Brent and Max P.

Howie Menckel: 6.9
Chris Cobb: 5.0
Got Melky: 4.9
Mark Shirk: 4.6
Tom H: 4.6
Andrew M: 4.1
andrew siegel: 4.1
favre: 3.7
Devin McCullen: 3.6
DanG: 3.5
OCF: 3.0

2.0 to 2.9: Esteban Rivera, Chris Fluit, Juan V, Don F, Rusty Priske, Rob Wood, dan b, Ken Fischer

1.0 to 1.9: AJM, SWW, Sean Gilman, David Foss, Adam Schafer, Al Peterson

0.0 to 0.9: ronw, Daryn, DL from MN, Tom D, Thane of Bagarth

-1.0 to -0.1: Brent, Mike Webber, Dan R, Joe Dimino

-2.0 to -1.1: 'zop, Max Parkinson, Patrick W, Rick A, fra paolo, Eric Chalek

-3.0 to -2.1: rawagman, Jim Sp

jimd: -3.2
Mark Donelson: -3.6
mulder & scully: -4.0
John Murphy: -4.1 (but he's averaging +4.3 over the last 5 years)
EricC: -6.4
KJOK: -6.8
rico vanian: -6.9
karlmagnus: -9.6

Howie never floundered. He hasn't had a single year below average. The only other person that might be true of is Tom H.
   24. OCF Posted: July 31, 2007 at 05:44 AM (#2462607)
Where's the edit button? Ack!
...
John Murphy: -4.1 (but he's averaging +4.3 over the last 5 years)
EricC: -6.4
KJOK: -6.8
rico vanian: -6.9
karlmagnus: -9.6
yest: -11.6 (yest is averaging -16.9 over the last 5 years)
   25. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 05:59 AM (#2462615)
i'm a fan of watching the HoM just to see how low yest and KM can get their consensus scores. what makes it even better is that they both have well defined systems and a method of balloting that eventually leads to their scores getting ridiculously low given their deep backlogs. love it.
   26. Howie Menckel Posted: July 31, 2007 at 11:48 AM (#2462673)
Yeah, Cobb and I were probably neck and neck coming around the far turn, and he turned into one of those horses that looks like he's standing still as they hit the stretch. Now GotMelky heads the field nipping at his heels, as the jockey applies the whip on a wheezing Cobb.

:)
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: July 31, 2007 at 12:13 PM (#2462679)
yest's list, with only HOFers whom we haven't voted into the HOM (deleting managers Mack, Huggins, Stengel, McKechnie, BHarris, Durocher and pioneers/etc Comiskey, Cummings, HWright, Hanlon but leaving true hybrids like McGraw and WRobinson and ALopez and SWhite).

At least one "mistake" every year from 1967-87, except for 1981, when he we decided their choice of Rube Foster was ok.
It's as if from 1974-87, Hall voters had finally gotten out of the habit of inducting multiple mistakes in the same year. You almost picture an "elect-1" secret vote of clearly unqualified guys.
:)


1937
John McGraw

1945
Roger Bresnahan, Hugh Duffy, Wilbert Robinson

1946
Frank Chance, Jack Chesbro, Johnny Evers, Tommy McCarthy, Joe Tinker

1948
Herb Pennock, Pie Traynor

1953
Dizzy Dean, Chief Bender

1954
Rabbit Maranville

1955
Ray Schalk

1963
Sam Rice

1964
Burleigh Grimes, Heinie Manush

1967
Lloyd Waner

1968
Kiki Cuyler

1969
Waite Hoyt

1970
Earle Combs, Jesse Haines

1971
Dave Bancroft, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Rube Marquard

1972
Lefty Gomez, Ross Youngs, Josh Gibson

1973
George Kelly, Mickey Welch

1974
Jim Bottomley

1975
Judy Johnson

1976
Freddy Lindstrom

1977
Al Lopez

1978
Addie Joss

1979
Hack Wilson

1980
Chuck Klein

1982
Travis Jackson

1983
George Kell

1984
Rick Ferrell

1985
Lou Brock

1986
Ernie Lombardi

1987
Ray Dandridge

1989
Red Schoendienst

1991
Tony Lazzeri

1994
Phil Rizzuto

1995
Leon Day, Vic Willis

1999
Orlando Cepeda

2000
Tony Perez

2001
Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski, Hilton Smith

2006
Bruce Sutter, Andy Cooper, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   28. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 31, 2007 at 01:15 PM (#2462721)
Wow,

My all-time consensus score is really close to the average...despite my suddenly morphing into Mr. not-quite Karlyest in the last two decades. I've got work to do to at least catch Murphy by 2007!!!!
   29. Chris Fluit Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:41 PM (#2462866)
Howie, I'm pretty sure we inducted Josh Gibson. ;)
   30. ronw Posted: July 31, 2007 at 04:35 PM (#2462931)
It's list time!

HOMers not HOFers (48)

Allen, Dick
Barnes, Ross
Beckwith, John
Bennett, Charlie
Blyleven, Bert
Boyer, Ken
Caruthers, Bob
Childs, Cupid
Dahlen, Bill
Evans, Darrell
Evans, Dwight
Ferrell, Wes
Freehan, Bill
Glasscock, Jack
Gordon, Joe
Gore, George
Gossage, Rich
Grich, Bobby
Groh, Heinie
Hack, Stan
Hernandez, Keith
Hines, Paul
Jackson, Joe
Johnson, Grant
Keller, Charlie
Magee, Sherry
McVey, Cal
Minoso, Minnie
Moore, Dobie
Pearce, Dickey
Pierce, Billy
Pike, Lip
Randolph, Willie
Richardson, Hardy
Rose, Pete
Santo, Ron
Sheckard, Jimmy
Simmons, Ted
Start, Joe
Stovey, Harry
Sutton, Ezra
Torre, Joe
Trammell, Alan
Trouppe, Quincy
Stieb, Dave
White, Deacon
Whitaker, Lou
Wynn, Jimmy

HOFers not HOMers (65) This is through 2007.

Aparicio, Luis
Bancroft, Dave
Bender, Chief
Boggs, Wade - HOM eligible 2005
Bottomley, Jim
Bresnahan, Roger
Brock, Lou
Cepeda, Orlando
Chance, Frank
Chesbro, Jack
Combs, Earle
Cooper, Andy
Cuyler, Kiki
Dandridge, Ray
Day, Leon
Dean, Dizzy
Duffy, Hugh
Eckersley, Dennis - HOM eligible 2004
Evers, Johnny
Ferrell, Rick
Gomez, Lefty
Grimes, Burleigh
Gwynn, Tony - HOM eligible 2007
Hafey, Chick
Haines, Jesse
Hooper, Harry
Hoyt, Waite
Hunter, Catfish
Jackson, Travis
Johnson, Judy
Joss, Addie
Kell, George
Kelly, George
Klein, Chuck
Lazzeri, Tony
Lindstrom, Freddy
Lombardi, Ernie
Manush, Heinie
Maranville, Rabbit
Marquard, Rube
Mazeroski, Bill
McCarthy, Tommy
McGraw, John
Molitor, Paul - HOM eligible 2004
Murray, Eddie - HOM eligible 2003
Pennock, Herb
Perez, Tony
Puckett, Kirby
Rice, Sam
Ripken, Cal - HOM eligible 2007
Rizzuto, Phil
Sandberg, Ryne - HOM eligible 2003
Schalk, Ray
Schoendienst, Red
Smith, Hilton
Sutter, Bruce
Taylor, Ben
Tinker, Joe
Traynor, Pie
Waner, Lloyd
Welch, Mickey
White, Sol
Willis, Vic
Wilson, Hack
Youngs, Ross

The only upcoming eligible with some possible issues for HOM election is Dennis Eckersley, but I think he will be in. Murray/Sandberg in 2003, Molitor in 2004, Boggs in 2005 and Ripken/Gwynn in 2007 are locks to be first-ballot.

Of the other HOFers, Bresnahan, Perez, Duffy, Puckett, McGraw, Welch, Brock, Grimes, Willis, Cepeda, Dean, and Rizzuto each received at least 100 points in the last election.

We have a total of 18 spots left (3 per year from 2003-2008).

It looks like the remaining elections will be:

2003 - Murray, Sandberg, backlog
2004 - Molitor, Eckersley, backlog
2005 - Boggs, backlog, backlog
2006 - Will Clark, backlog, backlog
2007 - Ripken, Gwynn, McGwire
2008 - Raines, backlog, backlog

McGwire will have some protests, and I could be overestimating support for Will Clark, but I think each of them makes it sometime before we go to yearly voting. That leaves only 8 spots for the backlog.

The current backlog probably consists of just 12 individuals(everyone who received 200-300 points in the last election):

OF Pete Browning, C Roger Bresnahan, OF Charley Jones, OF Bob Johnson, OF Andre Dawson, P Dick Redding, 1B-3B Tony Perez, OF Hugh Duffy, OF Kirby Puckett, 3B-OF Tommy Leach, P Bucky Walters, and OF Gavy Cravath

Per Howie's list in the "Eligibles" thread, the following 15 individuals could become backloggers:

2003 - OF Brett Butler, RP Lee Smith
2004 - P Dennis Martinez, OF Joe Carter
2005 - UT Tony Phillips, P Bret Saberhagen
2006 - OF Albert Belle, P Orel Hershiser, P Dwight Gooden
2007 - OF-DH Harold Baines, SS Tony Fernandez, OF Paul O'Neill, P David Cone
2008 - P Chuck Finley, P Chuck Knoblauch

Of course, some of these guys will have more support than others, but none looks like they will clearly break free of the backlog.

Check your ballots, we don't have many left. It is very likely that only 8 of these guys will join the Hall of Merit by January 2008. Anyone whose name doesn't appear above is also very likely a lost cause (yes, I'm talking to you, George Van Haltren, Sal Bando, Lou Brock, Ben Taylor, Bill Monroe, and Luis Tiant from my ballot). It is unconstitutional to abandon lost causes, but everyone should make sure their ballots accurately reflect their current thinking.
   31. McLovin Posted: July 31, 2007 at 04:43 PM (#2462942)
i'm a fan of watching the HoM just to see how low yest and KM can get their consensus scores. what makes it even better is that they both have well defined systems

What is yest's well-defined system? Ranking players by 3B put-outs? great
   32. Chris Fluit Posted: July 31, 2007 at 05:25 PM (#2462996)
I have 5 of the current backlog players on my ballot. However, I'm more likely to add players you mentioned as lost causes like Bill Monroe to my ballot than the other players high in the backlog. Of the new backlog, I could see myself voting for Saberhagan, but he might be the only one.
   33. DL from MN Posted: July 31, 2007 at 05:54 PM (#2463031)
I'm voting for Saberhagen, Lee Smith if we get down far enough and David Cone is 3rd but probably won't make my PHOM. I'd be SHOCKED if Joe Carter got a vote from someone who uses metrics.

Backloggers in my PHOM - Bresnahan, Bob Johnson, Dick Redding, Tony Perez, Tommy Leach, Gavy Cravath.
   34. jimd Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:07 PM (#2463048)
I'm very surprised that Browning wasn't elected: his lead over Stieb in 2002 was substantial by our current standards. But year-to-year changes in who votes can't be predicted.

Browning had a 45 point lead after last year. A strong Browning supporter failed to vote. A strong Stieb supporter came back after a one-year absence. 46 point shift right there involving two votes-to-elect, so they're about even. Another Stieb supporter missed, but Stieb also picked up three new ballot mentions, more than compensating. The rest was ballot tweaking.
   35. Mike Green Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:09 PM (#2463053)
There does seem to be an overall preference for peak/prime over career- Groh/Nettles and Stieb/John would be examples. What happened with Lefty Gomez, who seems to me to have a pretty impressive peak/prime?
   36. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:27 PM (#2463105)
John Murphy: -4.1 (but he's averaging +4.3 over the last 5 years)


That should improve evem more so after '03. Unfortunately, it can only go up so much after 105 ballots.

It is unconstitutional to abandon lost causes, but everyone should make sure their ballots accurately reflect their current thinking.


Seconded.
   37. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:49 PM (#2463151)
Gomez's peak/prime comes back to earth after you let out some air for having the Yankee D behind him, and not having to face the Yankee O. He's pretty much exactly Ron Guidry, once you adjust for the above and era.
   38. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:52 PM (#2463160)
Gomez's peak/prime comes back to earth after you let out some air for having the Yankee D behind him, and not having to face the Yankee O. He's pretty much exactly Ron Guidry, once you adjust for the above and era.

Ooooh. Strongly disagree, Joe. Would love to see the case for this (it must have been made before my HoM "time").

Hopefully we can continue this in the ballot thread; I'm one of Lefty's biggest "friends" and would love to see him get more attention.
   39. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 07:28 PM (#2463267)
I've made it multiple times . . . if I get a minute tonight when I get home, I'll give the full break down.

Once you adjust his innings for the league averages of his time, his defense behind him, etc., a lot of air comes out of a very short career - even when factoring in 'big season' credit.

Personally I like Dean better, with his even shorter career. But neither have enough for me.
   40. sunnyday2 Posted: July 31, 2007 at 07:49 PM (#2463334)
First, thanks very much to Esteban. You should know that you are part of a select, elite group. Of approximately two, I'd say. Thanks also to Doc for a nice email.

Second, you should all know I was hiking in the Swiss Alps for a couple weeks. Hike, eat ice cream and chocolate and drink beer. Hike, eat ice cream and chocolate and drink beer. Hike, eat ice cream and chocolate and drink beer. Hike, eat ice cream and chocolate and drink beer. And I came home five pounds lighter than I left. Is that a great country or what?

You know what they call Swiss cheese over there? Cheese.

So, how many of you know who Rick Steves is? I'm guess you Mariner fans--er, that is to say, you Mariner fan--knows who he is, the others maybe not. Anyway, my wife and I are sitting on the veranda of our B&B;, Esther's Guesthouse, in Gimmelwald, Switzerland, when who should pop around the corner for a look-see but Rick Steves. It turns out that he researches his books himself, personally, every year and he was there to see Esther's new addition which, unbeknownst to us, our apartment and porch were a part of. Would he mind signing our book?, I said. My pen is at the ready, he said. And the photo op was capitalized upon.

The next day we were hiking up above the neighborhing town of Murren and ran into a large group who turned out to be with a Rick Steves Tour. Little did I know that in addition to books and TV shows his company also runs packaged tours. And little did they know--even the tour guide--that Rick was in the neighborhood. A few hours later, our hike completed, we were enjoying a little lunch at the Stagerstubli (recommended by Rick Steves) when we saw Rick coming up the street, ducking into various establishments. And coming the other way, their hike now also completed, was the tour group. It was like watching a train wreck. And sure enough, when the two collided, the tour group mobbed the poor sonofabitch.

A week later we were on our way home, changing planes in Amsterdam, waiting in one of these massive security lines, when who should sidle up behind us but Garrison Keiller and some of his family members. My wife knows his sister from work and they got to talking. Well, who do you think was a participant in the Garrison Keillor/Prairie Home Companion tour of Norway. Go on, guess. Mrs. Rick (Anne) Steves. It turns out that she refuses to travel with Rick anymore because he's always getting mobbed by his fans and admirers.

I said hello to Gary--that's what his family calls him, Gary--and I'm sure it really, really made his day.

So anyway, that's my brush with fame.

But more to the point, remember the Swiss Alps diet. Hike, ice cream, chocolate, beer and did I forget to mention cheese. Lose 5 pounds in 2 weeks. It worked for me!
   41. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 08:51 PM (#2463444)
First, thanks very much to Esteban. You should know that you are part of a select, elite group. Of approximately two, I'd say. Thanks also to Doc for a nice email.


I guess all of my e-mails were deleted...

Welcome back, Marc.
   42. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 12:40 AM (#2463900)
and not having to face the Yankee O.

Isn't this effect incorporated into the PPF (which is used in ERA+)? Yankee BPF/PPF splits were indeed large during the Gomez era.
   43. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 12:53 AM (#2463939)
You know what they call Swiss cheese over there? Cheese.

Ha ha! :-)

Posting a joke like that to a group like this is going to bring out the curiosity in someone... so I'll bite. Evidently, what americans refer to as Swiss Cheese is called "Emmental". Its only "Swiss Cheese" in the US, Canada & Australia -- not in the UK apparently. "Emmental" is also what the Emme river valley is called. There are other cheeses from switzerland like Gruyere and Appenzeller.
   44. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 01, 2007 at 12:58 AM (#2463961)
Posting a joke like that to a group like this is going to bring out the curiosity in someone... so I'll bite. Evidently, what americans refer to as Swiss Cheese is called "Emmental". Its only "Swiss Cheese" in the US, Canada & Australia -- not in the UK apparently. "Emmental" is also what the Emme river valley is called. There are other cheeses from switzerland like Gruyere and Appenzeller.

And Emmental and Gruyere are really quite similar; Emmental is much milder, but they're both tangy semi-soft cheeses. And then you have Comte, which is basically French Gruyere. And the Basques have their own suite of similar cheese, both Spanish and French...
   45. Rick A. Posted: August 01, 2007 at 01:43 AM (#2464136)
rico vanian: -15
Rick A: -1
Eric Chalek: -18


I assume that I'm somewhere between -15 and -18


Sunny,
Nice to see you back again. Now Ed Williamson can continue his climb to the HOM. ;-)
   46. Howie Menckel Posted: August 01, 2007 at 01:54 AM (#2464202)
Awesome story, sunnyday, and welcome back...

:)
   47. Mongo Posted: August 01, 2007 at 02:50 AM (#2464512)
"Emmental" is also what the Emme river valley is called.

For those who don't know, 'tal' or 'thal' is German for Valley -- hence the fossil hominid whose remains were first discovered in the Neander valley is known as 'Neandertal (or Neanderthal) man'.

Similarly, the valley of St. Joachim, or Joachimsthal, was the site of a silver coin called the joachimsthaler (or joachimstaler), shortened to thaler or taler, which lent its name to the dollar.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled baseball-related discussion.
   48. Howie Menckel Posted: August 01, 2007 at 03:37 AM (#2464803)
Mongo,
We've departed from the "regularly scheduled baseball-related discussion" so often, for so long, that it's too late to save us.

:)
   49. OCF Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:30 AM (#2465209)
Rick A: -16. Sorry about the typo.
   50. sunnyday2 Posted: August 01, 2007 at 11:01 AM (#2465341)
Then there's this. The mountains are called the Alps and we tend to think the two terms are synonymous. Au contraire. An alp is actually a meadow that Swiss farmers drive their cows into in the summer...then they drive them back down to lower ground in the winter. So the little farming villages we hiked through have names like Schiltalp and Wengernalp and like that. So anyway the big mountains of western Europe are named after the meadows that are found below their big peaks. Now you know.
   51. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:17 PM (#2465599)
So now that Trammell and Whitaker are in, who are our other DP combinations?

Boudreau/Gordon for 1947-48 and half of 1949-50 (Boudreau was only a half-time SS those years).

Molitor will go in, he teamed w/Yount from 1978-80.

Any others?
   52. ronw Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:34 PM (#2465631)
I can think of a few regulars:

Grant Johnson - Pop Lloyd

Frank Grant - Grant Johnson (perhaps on Page Fence for a time, but they may not have played together)

Cupid Childs - Bobby Wallace (1899 Perfectos, the Spiders stubbornly kept Ed McKean at short and had Wallace at third! after he converted from pitching)

Billy Herman - Pee Wee Reese
Jackie Robinson - Pee Wee Reese

Also, here are a couple of ones you wouldn't expect:

Nellie Fox - Luke Appling - 1950 (Appling was finishing up, and Fox was starting with the Sox. Admit it, you thought I was going to type Aparicio.)

Also, a quick scan of Baseball-reference showed that on the 1893 Giants, George Davis played 1 game at SS. His only potential double-play partners would have been HOMer John Ward (134 games) or Willie Keeler! (2 games).

I'm sure there are many others.
   53. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:38 PM (#2465642)
Nellie Fox - Luke Appling - 1950 (Appling was finishing up, and Fox was starting with the Sox. Admit it, you thought I was going to type Aparicio.)


At least Aparicling. ;-)
   54. Chris Cobb Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:54 PM (#2465660)
I'm sure there are many others.

George Wright/Ross Barnes is one that springs immediately to my mind.
   55. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 07:33 PM (#2465851)
Pearce/Pike for the Atlantics in 1869-70.

Childs/Wallace in 1899.

Its getting harder to find more.
   56. dan b Posted: August 01, 2007 at 08:09 PM (#2465890)
Our DP combination is an improvement on the HOF's Tinker-Evers. Somebody should write a poem.
   57. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 08:45 PM (#2465934)
Found a big one: Cronin/Doerr 1938-41

Also, Sutton/Wright in 1877
   58. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 08:48 PM (#2465940)
Somebody should write a poem

As far as the poem goes, adding a 1B to the mix makes things tougher.

Pearce/Pike/Start
Wright/Barnes/O'Rourke
Wright/Barnes/McVey

... not sure how many DP's they were turning with no gloves. :-)

Cronin/Doerr/Foxx
Trammell/Whitaker/Evans
   59. jimd Posted: August 01, 2007 at 08:51 PM (#2465944)
These are the saddest of possible words
Wright throws to Barnes to O'Rourke.
...

I was good at spelling, poetry not so much ;-)
   60. jimd Posted: August 01, 2007 at 08:55 PM (#2465948)
Wright participated in 23 in 60 games in 1874. Compare to Tinker at around 50 per season during the Cubs run. Wright's teams allowed (a lot) more baserunners though.
   61. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 09:08 PM (#2465965)
I suppose I could have looked up the DP numbers and seen they weren't anywhere near as rare as I had imagined. :-) Barnes was a SS in Rockford, so he was likely fairly good with the leather.

Even Pike has 18 career DP's at 2B in limited post-1870 playing time there... and he was lefthanded! :-) The gloveless, left-handed pivot would have been a fun sight to see. Too bad it was over 100 years before sportscenter.
   62. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 01, 2007 at 09:27 PM (#2465980)
BOSTON'S SAD LEXICON

These are the saddest of all baseball's lads,
"Cronin to Doerr to Foxx."
Decent with gloves, fearsome with bats,
Cronin to Doerr to Foxx.
Never faced the likes of Dizzy or Hubbell,
Trailed the Yanks by ten or by double --
Disappointing teams DiMag laid to rubble:
"Cronin to Doerr to Foxx."
   63. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 01, 2007 at 09:29 PM (#2465983)
What about O'Brien to Ryan to Goldberg?
   64. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 01, 2007 at 09:42 PM (#2465995)
BASEBALL'S OBSCURE LEXICON

These are the strangest of all baseball's words
"O'Brien to Ryan to Goldberg."
Irish and Hebrews flocking like birds
O'Brien to Ryan to Goldberg.
Names on a page or a flat panel screen
Known only to Wendt or maybe jimd--
Lads mostly lost to the game's history:
O'Brien to Ryan to Goldberg.
   65. Chris Cobb Posted: August 01, 2007 at 10:24 PM (#2466044)
The gloveless, left-handed pivot would have been a fun sight to see.

Indeed. One wonders if these double plays were of the 6-4-3 sort or 4-6-3 sorts to which we are now accustomed, or if they tended to be just 6-3 or 4-3 or even unassisted dps.
   66. yest Posted: August 01, 2007 at 10:25 PM (#2466047)
Barnes was a SS in Rockford, so he was likely fairly good with the leather.

if only he used one

What about O'Brien to Ryan to Goldberg?

this sure beats keanu reeves
   67. sunnyday2 Posted: August 02, 2007 at 12:23 AM (#2466303)
Or if they were 7-4 and 8-4 and 9-4 DPs.
   68. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:03 AM (#2466495)
this sure beats keanu reeves

There once was a star named Keanu
Whose acting was sure hard to follow
Oppostie Bullock or Danner
His woodenest of manners
Rendered his performance less deep than shallow.
   69. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:19 PM (#2467255)
Eric:

Nice. :-)

this sure beats keanu reeves


Beating Keanu Reeves doesn't sound like a bad idea, yest.
   70. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:32 PM (#2467277)
A double-play crafted like Gainsborough's art:
"Pearce, to Pike, to Start."
Bare-handed fielders on pebbly fields:
"Pearce, to Pike, to Start."
Turning the pivot with flair and a woosh,
And one of the players I'm praising is Jewish-
Think of the fingers those double-plays smooshed!
"Pearce, to Pike, to Start."
   71. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:45 PM (#2467301)
Nice tribute to three guys that I supported for the HoM, 'zop. :-)
   72. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 02, 2007 at 02:03 PM (#2467329)
Jack Glasscock is clearly a name one would want to use in just such a rhyme scheme.

Glasscock to Basset to Schomberg
Glasscock to Bassett to Esterbrook
Glasscock to Richardson to Connor
Glasscock to Bierbauer to Beckley
Glasscock to O'Brien to Spies
Glasscock to Crooks to Cartwright

Yuck.

Some other fun candidates:
-Howser to Lumpe to Throneberry (that's for Murphy)
-Kessinger to Grabarkewitz to Thronton
-Stallcup to Bloodworth to Kluzewski
-Hulswitt to Huggins to Hoblitzell
   73. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: August 02, 2007 at 02:25 PM (#2467342)
It wasn't a double play, but I'm going with it anyway:

Jeter to Knoblauch to Olbermann
   74. sunnyday2 Posted: August 03, 2007 at 04:25 PM (#2469131)
Apropos of the discussion of Pete Browning raging elsewhere, let's not forget that Roger Bresnahan, Charley Jones, Bob Johnson and Andre Dawson are also in the mix. Dunno about Redding, Duffy, Puckett, Leach, Cravath, Perez and Walters.

And so:

Bresnahan's case depends in part on the lack of a HoM catcher from his era and probably on a "catcher" bonus, but there were several years there that he didn't play catcher.

Jones probably needs blacklist credit. Does he deserve it?

Johnson is about the 75th best hitter (okay, I exaggerate) of his time. I mean, aren't there enough of his kind?

Dawson didn't deserve that MVP award.

Redding's case seems to rest on a couple great years.

Duffy's case seems to rest on one great year.

Puckett--well, no negatives that I can think of ;-) OK, he groped women in public places.

Leach didn't hit a whole lot, though frankly that's a fairly weak argument against. I'm not sure he isn't the best backlogger out there if your concern is finding somebody without a really devastating weakness.

Somebody who saw Cravath play, which none of us ever did, thought he wasn't that good.

Perez was carried along by some pretty good teammates and never had the really big peak.

Walters' case seems to rest on a few good years. His shoulders do not exactly rival Chicago's.

Now I don't subscribe to all of these. Really a lot of these are cliches. But let's not hype up Pete Browning's negatives without a nod toward the fact that the backlog is what we thought it was. A bunch of guys with warts.
   75. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 03, 2007 at 04:33 PM (#2469138)
Puckett has no negatives that you can think of? What about the fact that his hitting is far below the established HoM level for CF, there is no quantitative evidence that he was a well above average fielder once he really started hitting, and his career was cut short?
   76. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: August 03, 2007 at 04:38 PM (#2469145)
Puckett has no negatives that you can think of? What about the fact that his hitting is far below the established HoM level for CF, there is no quantitative evidence that he was a well above average fielder once he really started hitting, and his career was cut short?


Other than that, he's a fine candidate.

(He is not on my ballot, and not likely to ever get there)
   77. Esteban Rivera Posted: August 03, 2007 at 04:47 PM (#2469156)
Dawson didn't deserve that MVP award.


True. But that is not his fault and should not be held against him. Against the voters however...

Nice to see you around, sunnyday2.
   78. OCF Posted: August 03, 2007 at 04:48 PM (#2469157)
Dawson didn't deserve that MVP award.

Interestingly, Dawson's 1988 was better than his 1987, not that it mattered.

I don't have Dawson in my top 30. You have two ways to consider his defense: either he was an excellent defensive RF, or he was a CF who played only a minority of his career at that position. That leaves him hanging somewhere in between RF and CF. The friendliest you can be to him is to consider him a CF, and even then, when I compare him to other CF, his offense falls short.

The problem with being a low-OBP slugger is that you take opportunities away from your teammates. Anyone batting behind such a hitter will get a low number of RBI chances. Of course the ugliest thing in the world would be to stack several low-OBP power hitters together in a lineup - look at some of those 1980's Cleveland teams, with Carter/Hall/Snyder, to get the idea.
   79. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2007 at 04:58 PM (#2469166)
Bresnahan's case depends in part on the lack of a HoM catcher from his era and probably on a "catcher" bonus, but there were several years there that he didn't play catcher.


...and he was a star in those years. Those years are a big plus for him.
   80. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 03, 2007 at 05:03 PM (#2469171)
Looking at Sunny's list, I'm partial here to Tralee. He's one of the few there that makes it over my in/out line. I used to vote for him often, and I've not done so in a while, but I would endorse him if he gets in.

That said, I vote for Parrish and have him ahead in my rankings.
   81. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 03, 2007 at 05:06 PM (#2469177)
I actually think stacking low-OBP power hitters 6-7-8 in an NL lineup makes sense, since walks before the pitcher are often wasted.
   82. sunnyday2 Posted: August 03, 2007 at 05:20 PM (#2469197)
I didn't say that Puckett has no negatives that I can think of

I said that Puckett has no negatives that I can think of ;-)

Or to put it another way, I'll just leave them to others to expound upon. Not that they haven't already. I'm just trying to level the playing field a little bit.

My comment re. the Hawkster is obviously tongue in cheek as well.

My comment re. Tommy Leach, OTOH, is totally serious. What is the rap against Tommy? Compared, let's say, to Bresnahan?
   83. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 03, 2007 at 05:46 PM (#2469222)
He's not a bad candidate, but Bresnahan was by far the best catcher in MLB over about a 30 year stretch--replacement level for C was rock bottom in those days. I mean, Bill Bergen had a job. Leach didn't face nearly as many obstacles to his production as Bresnahan did.
   84. Daryn Posted: August 03, 2007 at 05:58 PM (#2469239)
The friendliest you can be to him is to consider him a CF, and even then, when I compare him to other CF, his offense falls short.

I find this shocking. If Dawson played centrefield his entire career (say, averagely) I don't see how his hitting is not good enough to make the top 15 of all-time, which is easily on the right side of the in/out line. As a careerist, I have him higher than that offensively, but I do consider him to be a CF/RF hybrid which knocks him down to mid-ballot.
   85. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: August 03, 2007 at 06:10 PM (#2469261)
The reason I don't find Dawson ballot-worthy is simple. He made too many outs. I can't get around this fact no matter how hard I try.
   86. sunnyday2 Posted: August 03, 2007 at 06:46 PM (#2469342)
I understand OBA, I really do. But I think walks are overrated. You don't win many games by coaxing 4 walks, or even 1 walk with the bases loaded. Mostly you win because somebody swung the bat. Working the count, runners on base, RISP, all of that helps the guy who swings the bat. But still it takes some skill to swing the bat and drive in those runs. Some of the guys who do that make some outs (think Justin Morneau, Twins fans). But I'm willing to cut some slack to that guy on OBA. And sure some guys do both, but how many Ted Williamses and Mickey Mantles and Barry Bondses are there, really.

Or to put it another way, if Tim Raines is on second and the Hawk takes a BB...or if Joe Mauer is on second and Morneau takes the BB...well, then the guy you're relying on to swing the bat is not as good at doing that as Hawk or Morneau is. So I think their job is somewhat defined as hitting the ball and not leaving it to the next guy to do it. And people who do that job well have a lot of value. It just doesn't show up as OBA.

And PS. I saw somewhere that Doc rates Spot Poles more highly than Kirby Puckett. This is not a mainstream view.
   87. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2007 at 06:50 PM (#2469354)
I understand OBA, I really do. But I think walks are overrated.


Since the SLG component of OPS doesn't weight walks (as it does with singles), I don't really see walks as being overrated.
   88. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: August 03, 2007 at 06:55 PM (#2469373)
Marc,

I understand your opinions on a lot of things, but please, please don't tell me you think a walk is more overrated than a "productive out". I can't fathom how this is possible.
   89. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 03, 2007 at 06:59 PM (#2469388)
My someday retrosheet wishlist....

I really want to know the impact of baserunning in the deadball era. I have a sneaking suspicion that with great knowledge of baserunning (i.e. eqBR or Dan Fox's work), we might have a little different picture of, say, Max Carey. I suspect I'll probably like him a little better than now. Tommy Leach may be another such player, a guy whose profile might rise a bit when his baserunning is more credibly established (if it ever is). Or maybe he was awful and my profile of him will be lessened a bit.

Anyway, just daydreaming, but there's a few other players whose baserunning I'm very curious to know about:
-Rich Ashburn (same reasons as Carey and Leach)
-Nellie Fox (ditto)
-Edd Roush (ditto ditto)
-Joe DiMaggio (just curious, he's always thought of as being very graceful, I wonder if that translates into baserunning)
-Jackie Robinson (he did everything else so well...)
-Dick Allen (Craig Wright's article on him repeatedly quotes contemporaries who cite Allen's excellent baserunning, and the little eqBR we have shows it too.)
-Ty Cobb (do razor-sharp spikes = amazing baserunning?)
-Sam Crawford and Tris Speaker (their power is expressed through a ton of triples and doubles, but I'm curious if some of those hits are leg-oriented, and this data might help establish that.)
-Geo J. Burns (awful SB%, so would be interesting to compare to baserunning ability.)
-Harry Heilmann (one word: "slug.")
   90. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 03, 2007 at 07:01 PM (#2469396)
And PS. I saw somewhere that Doc rates Spot Poles more highly than Kirby Puckett. This is not a mainstream view.

Nope. Not the case. Puck's ahead in my rankings. Poles being tied with Roy Thomas about 10 spots behind Kirby.
   91. AROM Posted: August 03, 2007 at 07:09 PM (#2469406)
And sure some guys do both, but how many Ted Williamses and Mickey Mantles and Barry Bondses are there, really.

Very few, that's why they are the elites. But there are plenty of Matt Stairs/Tim Salmon/Pat Burrell/Luis Gonzalez/etc. out there. In general the players who hit the most home runs are the same players who put up the high on base percentages. The Joe Carter/Andre Dawson/Garret Anderson types are much more rare, and because they don't also set the table, less valuable than most sluggers with comparable power numbers.
   92. Esteban Rivera Posted: August 03, 2007 at 07:11 PM (#2469411)
I understand OBA, I really do. But I think walks are overrated.


I'd agree. Not overrated in their statistical value in terms of offensive formulas and stats (more valuable than productive outs, for instance) but more in the subjective esteem they are held. In a sense, walks have become the RBI's of the stathead world.
   93. DavidFoss Posted: August 03, 2007 at 07:14 PM (#2469424)
So I think their job is somewhat defined as hitting the ball and not leaving it to the next guy to do it. And people who do that job well have a lot of value. It just doesn't show up as OBA.

Making an out often takes the next guy completely out of play. It may not be the stuff of movie scripts, but "keeping the inning alive" has a large amount of value. How long a rally extends plays a huge role in how many runs are scored.

John's right. BB's are in OBP while 1B's are in both OBP and SLG. Linear weights give BB's a lower number than a 1B. No one is claiming a walk is just as good as a hit. Its not. And extra-base hits are worth a lot more than a walk. Outs stink though.

... and there is nothing wrong with Justin Morneau's OBP. :-)
   94. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: August 03, 2007 at 07:20 PM (#2469436)
Making an out often takes the next guy completely out of play. It may not be the stuff of movie scripts, but "keeping the inning alive" has a large amount of value. How long a rally extends plays a huge role in how many runs are scored.

John's right. BB's are in OBP while 1B's are in both OBP and SLG. Linear weights give BB's a lower number than a 1B. No one is claiming a walk is just as good as a hit. Its not. And extra-base hits are worth a lot more than a walk. Outs stink though.


Much more eloquent than I put it. thank you.
   95. Paul Wendt Posted: August 08, 2007 at 05:44 PM (#2476980)
You'll find no reference to baseball-reference here.
This is from memory and I'll leave it to one of our Torontonians to sort out.

Of course the ugliest thing in the world would be to stack several low-OBP power hitters together in a lineup

How about the left side of the Blue Jays?
George Bell, Lloyd Moseby, Kelly Gruber, Tony Fernandez.
Or should that be
Joe Carter, Devon White, Kelly Gruber?

They all sometimes batted remarkably early in the lineup.
   96. Mike Green Posted: August 08, 2007 at 05:57 PM (#2477006)
It wasn't that bad in Toronto. The Indians regularly batted Cory Snyder and Joe Carter back-to-back and sometimes threw in Mel Hall in his low OBP days. Brook Jacoby went .300/.387/.541 in 620 PAs in 1987, but scored 73 runs and drove in 69, thanks in large part to these fine fellows.
   97. Paul Wendt Posted: August 08, 2007 at 06:19 PM (#2477031)
Eric Chalek:
I really want to know the impact of baserunning in the deadball era. I have a sneaking suspicion that with great knowledge of baserunning (i.e. eqBR or Dan Fox's work), we might have a little different picture of, say, Max Carey. I suspect I'll probably like him a little better than now.

I've mentioned this before, and I admit that I have never taken the next step myself.
Tom Ruane with Ted Turocy completed NL 1911 for the retrosheet box scores project. That is, they have coded and published
- a Retro-box score for every game
- all of the play-by-play accounts currently available (2005?).

NL 1911 is not representative of Max Carey's career (his rookie year) or the deadball era (a big year for batting and baserunning) but I am sure that it is instructive. Retrosheet index of years - note "1911" bold

Check out some teams and players: Pittsburgh and Max Carey, New York and Fred Snodgrass. This format is important, although details may be tweaked. About 75 years of major league history, thru WWII, will never be available except with some blank cells in the daily record and some mix of blank and "i" for incomplete in the season totals. I am sure that it is instructive. . . .
Fred Snodgrass, 51 steals, 40i caught. If I understand and count correctly, that "i" caught stealing is derived from play-by-play for 90% of the games, 15 of 151 missing.
   98. sunnyday2 Posted: August 08, 2007 at 06:39 PM (#2477055)
>please don't tell me you think a walk is more overrated than a "productive out".

No idea. Just like whether Jim Rice is more over-rated or Luis Aparicio is more over-rated. I can decide which is more valuable but to figure out how over-rated they are, I 'd have to have some measure of ratedness. But I guess if you held a gun to my head (Sebastien Telfair is available) and made me choose I'd take a walk over a "productive out."

>Making an out often takes the next guy completely out of play. It may not be the stuff of movie scripts, but "keeping the inning alive" has a large amount of value.

It's not an all or nothing deal. Justin Morneau doesn't always make an out. But more than, say, Joe Mauer, he takes upon himself the risk of making an out. Sometimes he gets a BB, a single, a double, a triple. Well, maybe not so much a triple. Sometimes he makes an out (about 4-5-6 more than Joe Mauer in fact per 100 PA, in which period he probably also gets 4-5-6 more XBH, that's a trade-off I'm willing to consider). He's not up there trying to make an out. But he's more likely to swing the bat, like a Roberto Clemente, say, and less likely to watch 2 strikes go by before he does. I think the Twins like it that he does that. He complements the guys (or, in keeping with the example from the MN Twins, the guy) with the bigger OBA and they complement him.

>I'd agree. Not overrated in their statistical value in terms of offensive formulas and stats (more valuable than productive outs, for instance) but more in the subjective esteem they are held. In a sense, walks have become the RBI's of the stathead world.

Exactly, thanks, to E for clarifying and expanding what I am saying. I mean, if you rate guys on OPS or OPS+, fine. But how often do we hear people say that somebody's OPS is more OBA than SLG and so therefore it's better than it appears. The subjective thing.

So in summary: Some people subjectively give that boost to the OBA/BB compenent of OPS. I subjectively give a little boost to the guys who hit more XBH and who compile more RBI. There I said it, there's nothing wrong with RBI. And again, sure, there are the guys who do it all. God bless them, every one. But again, if my choice were a lineup full of Joe Mauers, I'd want one Justin Morneau in there.
   99. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 08, 2007 at 08:06 PM (#2477152)
Agreed sunny - there is nothing wrong with RBI.

As long as you account for RBI opportunities . . .
   100. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 08, 2007 at 08:31 PM (#2477180)
sunnyday, well, I think that's because 1.7*OBP + SLG correlates to run scoring better than raw OBP + SLG does.
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