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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, August 19, 2007

2003 Results: Murray! Sandberg! Jones! Hall of Meriters!

In his first year of eligibility, legendary RBI man Eddie Murray captured the top spot this election for the Hall of Merit with a spectacular 97% of all possible points.

Cub superstar Ryne Sandberg, another newbie, nabbed the second spot with an almost equally impressive 90% of all possible points.

Last but not least, 19th century batsman Charley Jones narrowly beat out longtime candidates Pete Browning and Roger Bresnahan (one of these two will almost certainly be elected in 2004) with an underwhelming 24.92% of the points (breaking Jake Beckley’s 1998 record by eight-hundredths of a point). A candidate in our very first election, his 106th try did the trick.

A record 108 candidates received a vote this election, eclipsing the previous record of 103.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Andre Dawson, Kirby Puckett (first time in the top-ten!), Bob JohnsonTony Perez and Cannonball Dick Redding.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Eddie Murray            1240   53  37 13  1  1        1                        
 2  n/e  Ryne Sandberg           1149   53  12 27  5  3  1  2     1  1           1      
 3    6  Charley Jones            317   22      3  1  1  2  3  2  1  3  1  1  2  2      
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4    4  Pete Browning            307   20   1  1  4  1  1  2  2     2  2  2  1        1
 5    5  Roger Bresnahan          301   21   1     3  1  3  1  2  3     2  1  1  2  1   
 6    8  Andre Dawson             274   21         2  2  2  1  3  2     3  1  1  2  1  1
 7   12  Kirby Puckett            253   18      1  1  3  2  3  2           2  2     2   
 8    7  Bob Johnson              252   19            2  4  3  2     3  1  1  2        1
 9   10  Tony Perez               244   19      1  2  4     1  1     1     1  1  1  5  1
10    9  Cannonball Dick Redding  228   14      1  4  2     2  1        1  1  2         
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   14  Bucky Walters            218   17         1  1  3  1  3     2  1     2  1  1  1
12   11  Hugh Duffy               216   17      1  1  1  1  1  2  2  1     1  3     2  1
13   16  Alejandro Oms            215   17         2  3     1  1     2  1  2  1  1  1  2
14   15  Gavvy Cravath            212   19         2  1           2  2  1  4     3  2  2
15   13  Tommy Leach              207   16            1  3  2  1  2  3  1  1  1        1
16   24  Reggie Smith             179   15         1     1     3  2        5  1  1     1
17   17  George Van Haltren       178   13         2  2     1  1  3     1        1  1  1
18   19  Luis Tiant               177   15         2     1     1  2  2     1  1  1  2  2
19   18  Graig Nettles            174   15            1  1  2  1  2     3        4     1
20   20  John McGraw              166   10   1     2  2  1  1  1  1                    1
21   32  Phil Rizzuto             159   13               1  3  2  1  2     1  1     2   
22   31  Dizzy Dean               154   10         3  2  1  1                 1  1     1
23   23  Bus Clarkson             148   10      1  1  1  1     2     1  1  1  1         
24   28  Tommy Bridges            143   10            1  5     1     2           1      
25   22  Lou Brock                134   10      1     2           2  2     2        1   
26   34  Ken Singleton            132   12            1  2  1        1     1  1  3  1  1
27   35  Dave Concepción          131   10            2  1     2  2     1  1           1
28   25  Burleigh Grimes          129   12         1  1        2  1           1  1  2  3
29   27  Rusty Staub              128   11               1  1  1  1  1  2  2     2      
30   21  Mickey Welch             127    9         1  2        1  2     2     1         
31   30  Orlando Cepeda           121   11               1  1  3     1           2  2  1
32   26  Norm Cash                119   10            1     1  1  3           2  2      
33   29  Vic Willis               113    9         1     1  2           2     1  1     1
34   33  Larry Doyle              111    8         2     1  1     1           1  1     1
35   37  Bobby Bonds              110   11                  3           1     1  3  3   
36   36  Dale Murphy              109   10                  1  1        5     2     1   
37   45  Elston Howard             95    9               2           1  1  1  1  1  1  1
38   38  Bob Elliott               90    9                  1     1  1  1  1     2  1  1
39   40  Ben Taylor                88    7         1           1  1  1     1  1  1      
40   43  Carl Mays                 82    8               2        1     1           2  2
41T  41  Dave Bancroft             78    6         1        1     1  1     1           1
41T  39  Tommy John                78    6            1  1        2        1  1         
43   51T Bill Monroe               70    6                  1     2     1  1     1      
44T  46  Chuck Klein               62    5         1     1                 1        2   
44T  44  Wally Schang              62    5      1                 1     1        1  1   
46T  54T Rick Reuschel             61    5         1                 1  1  1           1
46T  47  Vern Stephens             61    5               1           2  1  1            
48   48  Frank Tanana              61    4      1        1  1                       1   
49  n/e  Lee Smith                 60    4            2     1           1               
50   49  Don Mattingly             59    5   1                 1                 1  1  1
51   54T Addie Joss                58    4      1           1        1           1      
52T  50  Sal Bando                 55    5                        1  2  1           1   
52T  61  Thurman Munson            55    5                  1           2  1     1      
54T  57T Buddy Bell                54    5               1     1              2        1
54T  42  Pie Traynor               54    5            1           1  1                 2
56   65  Ed Williamson             53    4            1     1           1  1            
57   64  Don Newcombe              50    5                        1  1  1        1     1
58   53  Frank Chance              44    4               1           1     1           1
59   62T Urban Shocker             41    4                     1        1  1           1
60T  67  George J. Burns           39    4                              1  1  2         
60T  57T Lefty Gomez               39    4                     1        1        1     1
62   56  Wilbur Cooper             37    3            1           1                 1   
63   60  Tony Oliva                37    2         1        1                           
64T  73  Ed Cicotte                36    3         1                             1     1
64T  59  Ernie Lombardi            36    3            1              1              1   
64T  51T Lance Parrish             36    3                        1  1  1               
67T  62T Tony Mullane              33    3                        2                 1   
67T  70T Jimmy Ryan                33    3                           2        1         
69   82T Al Rosen                  30    3                  1                 1        1
70   68  Rabbit Maranville         29    3                     1              1        1
71   75  Bill Mazeroski            28    2         1                                   1
72   74  Jack Clark                27    3                  1                          2
73   77T Frank Howard              26    3                                 1  1     1   
74   69  Ron Cey                   25    3                              1           2   
75T  70T Jim Kaat                  24    2                           2                  
75T  89T Leroy Matlock             24    2                     1           1            
77   72  Jack Quinn                23    2            1                                1
78  n/e  Luke Easter               22    1         1                                    
79   82T Bobby Veach               21    3                                       1  1  1
80   76  Bruce Sutter              20    2                                 2            
81T  80  Fred Dunlap               19    2                                 1  1         
81T  66  Sam Rice                  19    2                           1              1   
83   77T Johnny Pesky              18    2                              1           1   
84T  82T Jim Rice                  16    2                                    1     1   
84T  82T Dave Parker               16    2                                       2      
86T  86  Luis Aparicio             16    1               1                              
86T  81  Brian Downing             16    1               1                              
88   79  Dizzy Trout               13    1                        1                     
89  n/e  Carlos Morán              12    1                           1                  
90T  89T Fielder Jones             11    1                              1               
90T  87  Sam Leever                11    1                              1               
92T  88  Hack Wilson               10    1                                 1            
92T  92T Tony Lazzeri              10    1                                 1            
94T n/e  Wally Berger               9    1                                    1         
94T n/e  Tommy Bond                 9    1                                    1         
94T n/e  Brett Butler               9    1                                    1         
94T n/e  Bert Campaneris            9    1                                    1         
94T  92T Jim Fregosi                9    1                                    1         
94T  89T Jack Morris                9    1                                    1         
100  94T Mickey Vernon              8    1                                       1      
101T  94T Charlie Hough              7    1                                          1   
101T  94T George Kell                7    1                                          1   
101T  99T Dick Lundy                 7    1                                          1   
104T  97T Dutch Leonard              6    1                                             1
104T  97T Bill Madlock               6    1                                             1
104T n/e  Dan Quisenberry            6    1                                             1
104T  99T Gene Tenace                6    1                                             1
104T n/e  Tim Wallach                6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Al Oliver(99T).
Ballots Cast: 53

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 19, 2007 at 04:16 PM | 75 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:04 AM (#2493004)
Congrats to Eddie, Ryne and Charley!

Happy to see Jones go in after all of these years, especially since I like him better than Browning.

Dan Greenia, please do us a favor: go all out for Roger Bresnahan! :-) He's close enough that a positive review of his accomplishments might push him over the top.

HOF-not-HOM through 2003

Meaning
all of the members of the HOF-not-HOM as of 2003not 2007.

1  Aparicio
Luis
2. Bancroft
Dave
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Brock
Lou
7  Cepeda
Orlando
8  Chance
Frank
9  Chesbro
Jack
10 Combs
Earle
11 Cuyler
Kiki
12 Dandridge
Ray
13 Day
Leon
14 Dean
Dizzy
15 Duffy
Hugh
16 Evers
Johnny
17 Ferrell
Rick
18 Gomez
Lefty
19 Grimes
Burleigh
20 Hafey
Chick
21 Haines
Jesse
22 Hooper
Harry
23 Hoyt
Waite
24 Hunter
Catfish
25 Jackson
Travis
26 Johnson
Judy
27 Joss
Addie
28 Kell
George
29 Kelly
George
30 Klein
Chuck
31 Lazzeri
Tony
32 Lindstrom
Freddie
33 Lombardi
Ernie
34 Manush
Heinie
35 Maranville
Rabbit
36 Marquard
Rube
37 Mazeroski
Bill
38 McCarthy
Tommy
39 McGraw
John 
40 Pennock
Herb
41 Perez
Tony
42 Puckett
Kirby  
43 Rice
Sam
44 Rizzuto
Phil
45 Schalk
Ray
46 Schoendienst
Red
47 Smith
Hilton
48 Tinker
Joe
49 Traynor
Pie
50 Waner
Lloyd
51 Welch
Mickey
52 Willis
Vic
53 Wilson
Hack
54 Youngs
Ross

HOM
-not-HOF

Meaning
all of the members of the HOM-not-HOF as of 2003not 2007.

1  Allen
Dick 
2  Barnes
Ross
3  Beckwith
John
4  Bennett
Charlie
5  Blyleven
Bert
6  Boyer
Ken
7  Brown
Ray
8  Brown
Willard
9  Caruthers
Bob
10 Childs
Cupid
11 Dahlen
Bill
12 Evans
Darrell
13 Evans
Dwight
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Freehan
Bill
16 Glasscock
Jack
17 Gordon
Joe
18 Gore
George
19 Gossage
Rich
20 Grant
Frank
21 Grich
Bobby
22 Groh
Heinie
23 Hack
Stan
24 Hernandez
Keith
25 Hill
Pete
26 Hines
Paul
27 Jackson
Joe*
28 JohnsonHome Run
29 Jones
Charley   
30 Keller
Charlie
31 Mackey
Biz
32 Magee
Sherry
33 McVey
Cal
34 Méndez
José
35 Minoso
Minnie
36 Moore
Dobie
37 Pearce
Dickey
38 Pierce
Billy
39 Pike
Lip
40 Randolph
Willie
41 Richardson
Hardy
42 Rose
Pete*
43 SandbergRyne
44 Santo
Ron
45 Santop
Louis
46 Sheckard
Jimmy
47 Simmons
Ted
48 Start
Joe
49 Stieb
Dave
50 Stovey
Harry
51 Suttles
Mule
52 Sutton
Ezra
53 Torre
Joe
54 Trammell
Alan
55 Trouppe
Quincy
56 Torriente
Cristobal
57 Whitaker
Lou
58 White
Deacon
59 Wilson
Jud
59 Wynn
Jimmy

*  not eligible for the HOF 
   2. OCF Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:06 AM (#2493007)
With two "frontloggers," consensus scores weren't terribly low, even if we did shatter the record for candidates. Highest possible consensus score +6, average -5.7.

Esteban Rivera: +2
Sean Gilman: +1
ronw: -1
Howie Menckel: -1
TomH: -2
mulder&scully;: -2
John Murphy: -2
Thane of Bagarth: -2
Mike Webber: -2
Al Peterson: -2
Chris Fluit: -2
...
Kenn: -5
Brent: -5 (median)
KJOK: -5
...
Chris Cobb: -6
OCF: -6
...
Ken Fischer: -8
jimd: -8
rawagman: -8
Joe Dimino: -10
Tiboreau: -10
Patrick W: -10
rico vanian: -10
daryn: -12
EricC: -13
Adam Schafer: -14
karlmagnus: -16
yest: -17
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:23 AM (#2493018)
I'm a little surprised that Lee Smitth didn't do better. Not that I thought he would be close to making it this election, but I figured he would get a little more support.
   4. Rick A. Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:26 AM (#2493023)
WOO HOO on Jones getting in!!

11 15 Gavvy Cravath 221
John, I have Cravath with 212 rather than 221. There seems to be am extra 12th place vote.
I've looked, but I can't seem to find it.
   5. Chris Cobb Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:27 AM (#2493025)
Random observations:

Wow! There seems to be no predicting who will get the third spot these days. Jones is a sound choice, but who saw it coming?

Pete Browning versus Roger Bresnahan next year will be interesting.

Pretty unlikely, I suppose, that either Dennis Martinez or Joe Carter will slide in as Shiny New Toy.

I'm a tiny bit surprised that Fernando Valenzuela didn't get any votes. But though we harbor voters of many stripes, we have no one beating the drum for 1980s pitchers as a neglected group.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:31 AM (#2493026)
John, I have Cravath with 212 rather than 221. There seems to be am extra 12th place vote.
I've looked, but I can't seem to find it.


No, you're right, Rick. I had corrected it a while back on my spreadsheet, but I forgot to change the thread. Thanks!
   7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:37 AM (#2493029)
Pretty unlikely, I suppose, that either Dennis Martinez or Joe Carter will slide in as Shiny New Toy.


Carter would easily become the worst player in the HoM, bar none.
   8. Juan V Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:41 AM (#2493067)
Nice to see another backlogger on my ballot elected. Now, fellas, look at Cravath :-)

Funny, I was assuming that Browning would be elected, and I was thinking "How long until Charley Jones breaks his Most Years in Ballot record?"
   9. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:53 AM (#2493081)
Wow, unless OCF has forgotten me, I'm awfully close to the median for the first time in about 700 elections.
   10. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:14 AM (#2493103)
Wow, Charley Jones - that's awesome - I had him way up there for awhile, it's good to see him get in even though he's since faded from my ballot (though I do have him in the 20s).

I'm dreading a Pete Browning election. I really hope that doesn't happen.
   11. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:16 AM (#2493104)
Also happy to Andre Dawson inch up a little further. I think he can pass the two in front of him. I vote him ahead of them at least, so that's who I'm pulling for next time :-)

Also nice to see Rizzuto move up - I guess his passing triggered some people looking over his resume a little closer, I know I did. The more I look, the more I like what I see there.
   12. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:40 AM (#2493112)
At 157, Jones is the oldest living member of the HOM.
   13. The District Attorney Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:08 AM (#2493121)
At 157, Jones is the oldest living member of the HOM.
Blacklisting keeps the humors balanced, and protects against swine flu.
   14. sunnyday2 Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:21 AM (#2493133)
So Charley Jones got 10 more points than Pete Browning--2 more ballots. I guess it's those 2 extra ballots that makes him not a gigantic embarrassing mistake.
   15. ronw Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:55 AM (#2493172)
I guess Jones's election is fitting. One April 14, 2003, one Charley Jones will receive 11 votes and 96 points in a new experiment called the "Hall of Merit."

Yes, now that the 2003 election is over, we've caught up to the actual beginning of the project. We're going to need Stephen Hawking to decipher our circular logic when posting about the "pretend" year.

Wow, we've been at this over four real years!?!
   16. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 10:49 AM (#2493211)
Wow, we've been at this over four real years!?!


It sure doesn't seem like it, that's for sure.

I guess it's those 2 extra ballots that makes him not a gigantic embarrassing mistake.


Heh.

I'm dreading a Pete Browning election. I really hope that doesn't happen.


It's inevitable. He's also not Hack Wilson, as you allude to on your ballot.

Also happy to Andre Dawson inch up a little further. I think he can pass the two in front of him.


I wouldn't bet money on it, Joe, but it's possible.
   17. Howie Menckel Posted: August 21, 2007 at 10:59 AM (#2493213)
Extrapolated credit for Jones' missing years after blacklisting following a massive salary cat fight.
Worth more than Browning's actually - you know, playing baseball - in a couple of weak AA years?

Yikes. Not exactly up there with racism or world-war absences.

Well, let's just send Browning and Bresnahan in under the wire, and call it a day I suppose.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: August 21, 2007 at 11:51 AM (#2493227)
all-time 'votes points' thru 2003 - those still eligible in 2004 election are in CAPS. electees are not in caps.

2004 is the year! Both GVH and Duffy will pass Beckley for the top 2 spots on the all-time votes pts list. Duffy trails by 38 pts - and incredibly, that is EXACTLY his 'victory margin' over GVH in the 2003 voting. A round of Duff brews for everyone!.....Welch has climbed to No. 2 on the pitching charts, passing Waddell but still a couple of 'years' away from Griffith.... CJones' election deprives him of a place in the all-time top 10...


TOP 50, ALL-TIME
Beckley.... 25856
VAN HALTREN 25769.5
DUFFY...... 25731.5
BROWNING... 23814.5
Childs..... 18484
Griffith... 17924
WELCH...... 17613
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976
REDDING.... 16256

CJones..... 15875
BRESNAHAN.. 14589
TLEACH..... 13966
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
Mendez..... 12555
RYAN....... 12451.5
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005

Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
CRAVATH.....10290
Beckwith.... 9896
WALTERS......9752
HStovey......9576
DOYLE....... 9097
Mackey.......8930

GRIMES.......8556
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BJOHNSON.....7771
Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587

Trouppe......7494
OMS..........7487
BMONROE......7260
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
MCGRAW.......6753
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
Sheckard.....6377
SCHANG.......6306

Others in active top 40
Williamson 6099, Willis 5058, Dean 4688, Joss 4395, Elliott 4366, BTaylor 3833, Bridges 3818, FChance 3493, CMays 3178, McCormick 3148x, Traynor 3128, SRice 3061, NCash 2958, Cicotte 2949, Cepeda 2935, Rizzuto 2834, TPerez 2747, Tiernan 2692X, FJones 2554, Brock 2355, Veach 2259, Klein 2203
(just missed GJBurns 2154, Mullane 2077, Stephens 2072, Tiant 2018, EHoward 2005, Dunlap 1928, Lombardi 1897)



(RSmith, Nettles, Clarkson, Singleton, Concepcion or Bonds sneaking in here at the bottom?)
   19. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 12:34 PM (#2493249)
Extrapolated credit for Jones' missing years after blacklisting following a massive salary cat fight.


I believe a court did rule in Jones' favor.
   20. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 21, 2007 at 12:35 PM (#2493250)
I believe a court did rule in Jones' favor.

Which may or may not have been a biased court. But that's water under the bridge now.
   21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 12:39 PM (#2493251)
Which may or may not have been a biased court.


This is true, 'zop.
   22. ronw Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:00 PM (#2493367)
More lists through 2007:

HOM not HOF (49)

Allen, Dick
Barnes, Ross
Beckwith, John
Bennett, Charlie
Blyleven, Bert
Boyer, Ken
Caruthers, Bob
Childs, Cupid
Dahlen, Bill
Evans, Darrell
Evans, Dwight
Ferrell, Wes
Freehan, Bill
Glasscock, Jack
Gordon, Joe
Gore, George
Gossage, Rich
Grich, Bobby
Groh, Heinie
Hack, Stan
Hernandez, Keith
Hines, Paul
Jackson, Joe
Johnson, Grant
Jones, Charley
Keller, Charlie
Magee, Sherry
McVey, Cal
Minoso, Minnie
Moore, Dobie
Pearce, Dickey
Pierce, Billy
Pike, Lip
Randolph, Willie
Richardson, Hardy
Rose, Pete
Santo, Ron
Sheckard, Jimmy
Simmons, Ted
Start, Joe
Stovey, Harry
Sutton, Ezra
Torre, Joe
Trammell, Alan
Trouppe, Quincy
Stieb, Dave
White, Deacon
Whitaker, Lou
Wynn, Jimmy

HOF not HOM (63) - The gap is closing, of course. Only 5 guys who haven't had a chance to be elected. Besides those HOFers, Bresnahan, Puckett, Perez, and maybe Duffy have a chance to receive dual status.

Aparicio, Luis
Bancroft, Dave
Bender, Chief
Boggs, Wade - eligible 2005
Bottomley, Jim
Bresnahan, Roger
Brock, Lou
Cepeda, Orlando
Chance, Frank
Chesbro, Jack
Combs, Earle
Cooper, Andy
Cuyler, Kiki
Dandridge, Ray
Day, Leon
Dean, Dizzy
Duffy, Hugh
Eckersley, Dennis - eligible 2004
Evers, Johnny
Ferrell, Rick
Gomez, Lefty
Grimes, Burleigh
Gwynn, Tony - eligible 2007
Hafey, Chick
Haines, Jesse
Hooper, Harry
Hoyt, Waite
Hunter, Catfish
Jackson, Travis
Johnson, Judy
Joss, Addie
Kell, George
Kelly, George
Klein, Chuck
Lazzeri, Tony
Lindstrom, Freddy
Lombardi, Ernie
Manush, Heinie
Maranville, Rabbit
Marquard, Rube
Mazeroski, Bill
McCarthy, Tommy
McGraw, John
Molitor, Paul - eligible 2004
Pennock, Herb
Perez, Tony
Puckett, Kirby
Rice, Sam
Ripken, Cal - eligible 2007
Rizzuto, Phil
Schalk, Ray
Schoendienst, Red
Smith, Hilton
Sutter, Bruce
Taylor, Ben
Tinker, Joe
Traynor, Pie
Waner, Lloyd
Welch, Mickey
White, Sol
Willis, Vic
Wilson, Hack
Youngs, Ross
   23. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:00 PM (#2493368)
Wow. After all the heat I got for putting Browning #1, I actually cost Pete his spot this year. Jones made his way back onto my ballot at #10 this "year", which got enough enough points to pass Pete overall.
   24. Paul Wendt Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:05 PM (#2493371)
17. Howie Menckel Posted: August 21, 2007 at 06:59 AM (#2493213)
Extrapolated credit for Jones' missing years after blacklisting following a massive salary cat fight.
Worth more than Browning's actually - you know, playing baseball - in a couple of weak AA years?


I didn't provide any new, traditional performance data for Jones, only playing data. As a few voter comments support,
I suspect that some people only recently noticed that he was foremost a National Leaguer and that he was a full-time player for six years before the blacklisting.
And that he was rather a prime than a peak candidate here. Marc always recognized him as a prime candidate and dropped him from 6 to off-ballot in a move to be more of a peak voter again, but plural other voters probably went the other way after newly recognizing him.

(Jones and Browning garnered 4 and 6 "elect me" votes, same as last year, and Jones lost a few points there. The number of all voters was up four, Jones voters up four, Browning voters up one.)
   25. OCF Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:09 PM (#2493372)
On the ballot thread, Tom H asked about voters with candidates on their ballots outside of the top 40 or top 50. I've decided to take him up on this comment.

The first item was finding appropriate breakpoints. I've settled on two: outside the top 36 and outside the top 61.

Breaking after the top 36 is breaking between Dale Murphy and Elston Howard. Murphy got 109 points; Howard got 95. Most of those in the top 36 received votes from 10 or more voters; none of those outside the top 36 received votes from as many as 10 voters.

Breaking after the top 61 is breaking between Burns and Cooper. Everyone from Burns on up received votes from 4 or more voters; everyone from Cooper on down received votes from 3 or fewer voters.

Here are the voters sorted by number of votes outside the top 36. The number in brackets after each voter's screen name is the number of "elect me" votes outside the top 36. The average voter voted for 4 candidates outside the top 36.

9: karlmagnus [2], yest [1]

8: EricC [1], Patrick W [1]

7: Rico Vanian [1], sunnyday2, Adam Schafer

6: Tiboreau [1], Jpe Dimino [1], jimd, Jim Sp

5: fra paolo [1], Daryn, David Foss, Eric Chalek, KJOK, Don F

4: rawagman [1], Tom D [1], Chris Cobb [1], Juan V, Kenn, AJM, Got Melky, dan b, Brent, Max Parkinson, Ken Fischer, Andrew M, andrew siegel

3: DanG, Rob Wood, DL from MN, Mark Donelson, Howie Menckel, SWW, 'zop, Dan R, mulder & scully, John Murphy, ronw, Mike Webber, TomH

2: Chris Fluit, Al Peterson, OCF, Rick A, Esteban Rivera, Thane of Bagarth

1: favre

0: Rusty Priske, Sean Gilman

Now here is the same thing repeated for votes outside the top 61. The average voter voted for about 1.6 candidates outside the top 61.

5: yest, EricC, jimd

4: karlmagnus [1], Tiboreau [1], Patrick W

3: fra paolo [1], Rico Vanian, Daryn, David Foss, Eric Chalek, KJOK, Juan V

2: sunnyday2, Adam Schafer, Joe Dimino, Don F, Kenn, AJM, DanG

1: Tom D [1], Jim Sp, rawagman, Chris Cobb, Got Melky, dan b, Brent, Max Parkinson, Ken Fischer, Rob Wood, DL from MN, Mark Donelson, Howie Menkel, SWW, 'zop, Dan R, mulder & scully, Chris Fluit, Al Peterson, favre

0: Andrew M, andrew siegel, John Murphy, ronw, Mike Webber, TomH, OCF, Rick A, Esteban Rivera, Thane of Bagarth, Rusty Priske, Sean Gilman

Interesting to see my own placement well toward the bottom of these lists: only 2 non top-36, no non top-61. But my consensus score was slightly below average. Why? Because I didn't vote for any of the candidates who wound up #3 through #10. You, see, I'm at heart a high-consensus guy, and I don't vote for strange candidates, but I disagree with the plurality of you about who has risen to the top of the backlog.
   26. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:20 PM (#2493380)
It's inevitable. He's also not Hack Wilson, as you allude to on your ballot.


Right, I'd probably vote for Hack Wilson before Browning . . . he was a better defender, which says a lot . . .
   27. sunnyday2 Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:37 PM (#2493392)
1. Can't get anything past Paul!

2. Thrilled to see that I am back outside the mainstream again though I am sorry to abandon some PHoMers who recently have dropped down below the top 25ish: Cepeda, F. Howard, R. Smith.

3. Top of the backlog by position.

C--Bresnahan, E. Howard, Munson. The right 3 guys, wrong order ;-)
2B/old-time 3B--Leach, McGraw, Traynor. I guess we've elected all the modern 2Bs.
SS--Rizzuto, Bancroft, Stephens. Depending on where you have Clarkson.
Gloves--Bresnahan, Leach, McGraw. My, what a nostalgic bunch we are.

1B--Perez, Cepeda, Cash. Over Mattingly? You're kidding, right?
LF--Browning, Johnson, Brock. At least that's where I have Pete; he was a "hitter."
RF--Cravath, Singleton, Bonds.
Bats--Browning, Johnson, Perez.

3B/old-time 2B--Nettles, Doyle, Elliott. Apparently we're still short of 3B.
CF--Dawson, Puckett, Duffy, Oms, GVH, R. Smith. Still a heck of a glut.
Hybrids--Dawson, Puckett, Duffy. Still a heck of a glut.

SP--Redding, Walters, Tiant, Dean, Bridges, Grimes, Welch, John, Reuschel, Tanana, Joss.
RP--L. Smith
Arms--Redding, Walters, Tiant.

Total backlog--Browning, Bresnahan, Dawson, Puckett, B. Johnson. Only the top 3 are on 20 ballots. Not a single IF in the top 12 (Leach is #13; Nettles is the top full-time IF at #17. Or since he [Nettles] is a hybrid in my system, then McGraw at #18.)
   28. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:43 PM (#2493451)
Hey, OCF, I know my ballot barely made it under the wire, but it did count! :-)

For the record, I get a 2 and a 0 on your lists.

And since you're here, I'm going to guess on my consensus score as a -3.
   29. OCF Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:49 PM (#2493463)
Oops! Sorry, Devin. It looks like I made a bad selection in copying my spreadsheet and missed the last column - yours. Yes, 2 and 0 and no "elect me" candidates outside the top 36. And your consensus score was -4.
   30. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:10 PM (#2493492)
Right, I'd probably vote for Hack Wilson before Browning . . . he was a better defender, which says a lot . . .


I think the only way that you could view it that way, Joe, is if you discount Browning's IF years and the much higher attrition rate for players during Pete's era compared to Hack's.

At any rate, I want the Duke of Tralee to sneak in next election, anyway.
   31. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:12 PM (#2493496)
OCF, whenever you have the time, could you compile the career consensus scores for HoM voters? I would greatly appreciate it.
   32. OCF Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:41 PM (#2493530)
See posts 23-24 in the 2002 results thread.
   33. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 05:53 PM (#2493551)
See posts 23-24 in the 2002 results thread.


Heh. I even responded to it, OCF. :-) I totally forgot about it. Sorry about that.
   34. Chris Fluit Posted: August 21, 2007 at 07:07 PM (#2493640)
2B/old-time 3B--Leach, McGraw, Traynor. I guess we've elected all the modern 2Bs.

Carew, Grich, Randolph, Whitaker, yup, looks like we've gotten them all. Only 5 2B received votes in the 2002 election- Doyle, Monroe, Mazeroski, Dunlap and Lazzeri- and only 1 of them played after WWII (Mazeroski). I'd take Schoendiest over some of the guys who are getting votes, but Red still doesn't get all that close to my ballot.

SS--Rizzuto, Bancroft, Stephens. Depending on where you have Clarkson.

There are a lot of shortstops to choose from. Also, you're missing Concepcion, who finished between Rizzuto and Bancroft. Looking further down the list, Maranville, Pesky, Aparicio, Fregosi and Lundy pick up minimal support, as well.

1B--Perez, Cepeda, Cash. Over Mattingly? You're kidding, right?

Not in the least. Ben Taylor is ahead of Mattingly, too.

3B/old-time 2B--Nettles, Doyle, Elliott. Apparently we're still short of 3B.

Yeah, there's a real glut of 3B to choose from. Disregarding your old-time/new-time split, 14 3B received votes in the last election and 5 finished in the top 50. They are: Leach, Nettles, McGraw, Clarkson, Elliott, Traynor, Bando/ Bell, Williamson, Cey, Rosen, Kell, Madlock and Wallach.

SP--Redding, Walters, Tiant, Dean, Bridges, Grimes, Welch, John, Reuschel, Tanana, Joss.
RP--L. Smith
Arms--Redding, Walters, Tiant.


I still think we're underrating backlog pitchers as a group. Sure, all of these guys have flaws. But then, so do all of the backlog batters. So why are we more willing to elect flawed batters than flawed pitchers? We haven't elected a real backlog pitcher since Billy Pierce in 1987. Since then, we've elected 10 backlog position players (Childs, Boyer, Moore, Trouppe, Keller, Wynn, Fox, Roush, Beckley and Jones- and yes, I'm ignoring Fingers, Randolph and Stieb as new backloggers who were on the ballot for 10 years or less). It's possible that we'll elect 7 more position players before electing a backlog pitcher (we're in position to elect at least 6). Already 10, and likely as many as 16 position players elected from the backlog between pitchers? It looks to me like we aren't being fair to all positions.

Total backlog--Browning, Bresnahan, Dawson, Puckett, B. Johnson. Only the top 3 are on 20 ballots. Not a single IF in the top 12 (Leach is #13; Nettles is the top full-time IF at #17. Or since he [Nettles] is a hybrid in my system, then McGraw at #18.)

We're also electing 1B/OF more quickly than C/IF at this point, but I think that has a lot to do with the number of backlog gloves that we elected in the '90s. From '91 to '97, we elected 5 gloves out of 8 players: Childs, Moore, Boyer, Trouppe and Roush. It stood to reason that we'd have a bit of a glove gap after that. However, we've now made up for it, electing 5 "bats" out of the last 6 backlog spots: Keller, Wynn, Roush, Beckley and Jones.
   35. sunnyday2 Posted: August 21, 2007 at 07:36 PM (#2493682)
Chris,

Yes, I think Schoendienst is underrated. If there are 3 backlog 2Bs since 1920 worthy of consideration, he would be one of them. But I also agree that he would still barely be top 100.

>o, you're missing Concepcion, who finished between Rizzuto and Bancroft.

Oops that was not intentionally meant to annoy anybody, though I don't personally prefer him. Yep, lots to choose fromand that may be what keeps any of them from making a move. Ditto 3B. Williamson is of course my choice. Now and again I think we are missing on Pie Traynor because, while we talk the talk about the defensive spectrum, we don't walk the walk. Basically Pie Traynor is Lou Whitaker.

>So why are we more willing to elect flawed batters than flawed pitchers?

Same reason, can't agree which one(s). Hitters is the only "position" where we seem to be able to agree and that certainly works to the advantage of the Brownings, Joneses, Johnsons, et al.

>We're also electing 1B/OF more quickly than C/IF at this point,

Exactly. Just goes to show you that after 30 years of sabermetrics, hitting is still the only thing we really think we understand.
   36. DL from MN Posted: August 21, 2007 at 07:57 PM (#2493719)
> I guess we've elected all the modern 2Bs.

No kidding. Del Pratt is the next best in my spreadsheet.
   37. jingoist Posted: August 21, 2007 at 11:06 PM (#2493897)
Sooooooo; 24.9% is the latest "in-out" line.
I guess somebody always has to be the last guy.

And being 250th all-time ain't all that bad, is it.

I can't think of a single thing I'm capable of doing that I'd rank myself at 250th greatest all-time in the history of doing something.

Surely there are more that 250 people greater at taking out the trash without ######## about it than me; I know for sure there are 250,000 better golfers than me.

I guess I have one thing to be happy about: as of this writing my wife hasn't found 250 guys she'd rather be married to than me.

Good luck guys; keep up the good work as we begin to cycle down to one election per year
   38. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 21, 2007 at 11:28 PM (#2493948)
Yes, I think the reason Nellie Fox (inexcusably!) got in is that he had no positional competition at 2B, while the various shortstops who were similar as hitters and way superior as fielders after accounting for position (Rizzuto, Bancroft, Concepcion, even Campaneris) divide support amongst themselves. I am still bitter.
   39. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 22, 2007 at 12:10 AM (#2494048)
Yes, I think the reason Nellie Fox (inexcusably!) got in is that he had no positional competition at 2B.

Well, some voters like Larry Doyle....
   40. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 22, 2007 at 12:13 AM (#2494054)
No "glove" positional competition, then. And even Doyle's supporters recognize that 2B in 1910 was *not* the same as 2B from 1920-80.
   41. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 22, 2007 at 12:23 AM (#2494083)
true, Dan, I forgot that a moment. In which case, well, some voters like Tommy Leach.
   42. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 22, 2007 at 12:29 AM (#2494096)
Yes, I think the reason Nellie Fox (inexcusably!) got in is that he had no positional competition at 2B, while the various shortstops who were similar as hitters and way superior as fielders after accounting for position (Rizzuto, Bancroft, Concepcion, even Campaneris) divide support amongst themselves.


I don't understand positional competition outside of era. If I have 5 shortstops from different eras as the best candidates for my ballot, then they will be at the top of my ballot.
   43. sunnyday2 Posted: August 22, 2007 at 12:49 AM (#2494163)
I assume "bitter" was in jest. Anybody who is bitter is in the wrong website.
   44. Rick A. Posted: August 22, 2007 at 01:10 AM (#2494228)
Hey, I just realized that Charley Jones is still alive!

Should we send him a Santo letter or do you think it would be too much for his 157 year old heart? ;)
   45. Rick A. Posted: August 22, 2007 at 01:12 AM (#2494240)
Sorry, didn't see #12. Man, even my jokes are stale.
   46. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2007 at 01:23 AM (#2494279)
Sorry, didn't see #12. Man, even my jokes are stale.

In all seriousness, if anyone knows anything about what happened to Charley, let Paul Wendt know. His generic name has led him to be one of the few "lost players" in MLB history... well star caliber players anyways. Who else is lost? Anyone notable?
   47. Adam Schafer Posted: August 22, 2007 at 02:18 AM (#2494508)
I have been doing a lot of personal genealogy and a search for our Charley Jones on Ancestry.com states that he died Jan. 1. 1900 although his place of death is unknown. It lists him as a baseball player, correct date of birth and all other pertinent information. I don't know if that is his true date of death, or if they just gave him the 1st day of the century...FWIW, I've never seen them just give someone a date of death if unknown.
   48. Paul Wendt Posted: August 22, 2007 at 05:40 AM (#2494747)
For the SABR Biographical Research Cmte,
Charley Jones is number three on the Most Wanted list behind Hugh One-Arm Daily and Harry Decker.

See the Charley Jones thread (#54) for more information on those players and that project.
   49. sunnyday2 Posted: August 22, 2007 at 12:19 PM (#2494810)
Just for fun I worked up a list of HoMers (position players) who never had a 30 WS season. Once their best season is adjusted to 162 games, the only players left on the list are:

Jack Beckley actual 23, adjusted 24.0
Doerr 27, 28.4
McPhee 27, 28.2
Wallace 26, 29.7
Stovey 28, 29.8

The catch is that McPhee and Stovey probably had other, shorter seasons that would have adjusted to 30, leaving only Beckley, Doerr and Wallace, among position players.

As a peak voter, I would have to say that these are our biggest mistakes.

At a glance there are probably about 12 pitchers who don't make it.
   50. Chris Fluit Posted: August 22, 2007 at 03:49 PM (#2494999)
A peak voter insisting that Beckley is one of our biggest mistakes. Who would have guessed it?
   51. sunnyday2 Posted: August 22, 2007 at 03:51 PM (#2495002)
;-)

Well Doerr is a bit of a surprise. I had forgotten about his lack of peak.
   52. Rick A. Posted: August 25, 2007 at 02:34 AM (#2499061)
(RSmith, Nettles, Clarkson, Singleton, Concepcion or Bonds sneaking in here at the bottom?)


Here are the next 10 as well as those mentioned above.

Poles..........1842
Bonds..........1803
Hooper.........1792
Griffin........1726.5
R. Smith.......1720
Staub..........1665
Bancroft.......1608
Lundy..........1554
Singleton......1539
Nettles........1465

Clarkson.......1251
Concepcion.....939
   53. Brent Posted: August 25, 2007 at 04:40 AM (#2499178)
Poles... I must have been one of his last supporters and I think I last voted for him about 50 years ago. Yet he was a popular candidate for a while; I think in his first few years of eligibility he must have made it into the top 20.
   54. sunnyday2 Posted: August 25, 2007 at 12:44 PM (#2499246)
The idea that Poles would have more points than Lundy is a bit shocking.
   55. Brent Posted: August 25, 2007 at 03:05 PM (#2499291)
Some of the early votes for Negro league candidates were heavily influenced by Bill James, who had a comment that Poles may have belonged on the list of the top 100 players. By the time Lundy became eligible, voting was influenced more by the MLEs. He didn't look too good in the earlier versions, though they've since been revised up. I now see Lundy (#27) ahead of Poles (#47), though both were very good players who don't quite make my ballot.
   56. sunnyday2 Posted: August 25, 2007 at 05:36 PM (#2499387)
I have Lundy at #35 while Poles has long since dropped out of consideration. Well, that's not quite true. Just before I cut my consideration set from 150+ to 50+, I had Poles at #122. But there are just too many CF candidates who appear to be better. Lundy is probably about #7-8 among the SS, while Poles is probably about #15ish among the CF glut.
   57. Bleed the Freak Posted: August 25, 2007 at 05:46 PM (#2499390)
53. Brent Posted: August 25, 2007 at 12:40 AM (#2499178)

Poles... I must have been one of his last supporters and I think I last voted for him about 50 years ago. Yet he was a popular candidate for a while; I think in his first few years of eligibility he must have made it into the top 20.


Spotswood Poles finished 17th in 1931 and 19th in 1932.

Dick Lundy topped out at 19th in 1946.
   58. sunnyday2 Posted: August 25, 2007 at 06:15 PM (#2499407)
Obviouly the competition in 1946 was a far cry from what it was in 1931 and 1932. Just ask Dickey Pearce and Lip Pike.
   59. yest Posted: August 26, 2007 at 08:41 PM (#2500195)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
non HoMers who have non playing credit to add (or is) to their hall of fame case
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , <u>Connie Mack </u>,<u>John McGraw</u>, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , <u>Charlie Comiskey</u> , <u>Candy Cummings</u> , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , <u>Wilbert Robinson </u>
1946
Jesse Burkett , <u>Frank Chance</u> , Jack Chesbro , <u>Johnny Evers</u> , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , <u>Joe Tinker</u> , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , <u>Harry Wright </u>
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , <u>Bill McKechnie</u> , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , <u>Miller Huggins</u> , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , <u>Casey Stengel </u>
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski, Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , <u>Bucky Harris</u> , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , <u>Al Lopez</u> , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, <u>Rick Ferrell</u> , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Willie McCovey, Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Catfish Hunter, Ray Dandridge
1988
Willie Stargell
1989
Johnny Bench, Carl Yastrzemski, <u>Red Schoendienst</u>
1990
Jim Palmer , Joe Morgan
1991
Rod Carew, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri
1992
Tom Seaver, Rollie Fingers, Hal Newhouser
1993
Reggie Jackson
1994
Steve Carlton, <u>Leo Durocher</u> , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Mike Schmidt, Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , <u>Ned Hanlon </u>
1997
Phil Niekro, Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
Don Sutton, George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Robin Yount, Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Carlton Fisk, Tony Perez, Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Dave Winfield, Kirby Puckett, Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2002
Ozzie Smith
2003
Eddie Murray, Gary Carter
2005
Ryne Sandberg
2006
Bruce Sutter, Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, <u>Sol White</u>
   60. Paul Wendt Posted: August 29, 2007 at 06:23 PM (#2503629)
non HoMers who have non playing credit to add (or is) to their hall of fame case

Evidently that is the explanation of <u>underline</u>.
Tinker and Evers are underlined for the poem, I suppose.
McCarthy should probably be underlined for his supposed innovations, maybe Bresnahan too.
Some of those not underlined did serve as field managers but there is a judgment here that that service did not contribute to their Hall of Fame membership. I agree.
   61. sunnyday2 Posted: August 29, 2007 at 07:30 PM (#2503680)
Yeah, Tinker and Evers??? What about Rick Ferrell? He may have managed (or not, I don't know) but if he did it couldn't have been much of a factor. I s'pose I could look it up, but....

And how about Ben Taylor?
   62. yest Posted: August 29, 2007 at 10:38 PM (#2503852)
Tinker and Evers are underlined for the poem, I suppose.

I included Tinker because of his winning the FL pennant

I included Evers because his plaque mentions "served as a player, coach, and manager in big leauges and as a scout from 1902 through 1934 so I figured the HoF might have had some reason that's not eligable here that helped induct him

Rick Ferrall from wiki
After retiring, Ferrell served as a Senators coach, followed by over 30 years in the Detroit Tigers organization as a coach, scout, general manager, and, at over 80 years of age, executive consultant. Selected by the Veterans Committee, he was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1984.
I've seen many people try to say this helped his case

I forgot about Bresnahan, Sutter and Taylor

McCarthy should probably be underlined for his supposed innovations
for what traping fly balls?
   63. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 29, 2007 at 11:33 PM (#2503918)
I've seen many people try to say this helped his case


I think Chris Jaffe knows one of them.

:-D
   64. DanG Posted: August 30, 2007 at 01:05 PM (#2504523)
McCarthy should probably be underlined for his supposed innovations


From BB Library:

"McCarthy's statistics are unimpressive for a Hall of Famer, but his creative innovations left an indelible mark on the game. He hit .300 only four times in 13 seasons and had a lifetime fielding percentage of .897, and was at his best from 1892 to 1895 when he and Hugh Duffy were "the Heavenly Twins" in the Boston outfield. McCarthy had played for manager Frank Selee's Oshkosh champions in the North Western League in 1887, and after four years in the American Association was reunited with Selee in Boston. Selee encouraged innovative baseball, and McCarthy is credited with perfecting, if not inventing, the hit-and-run; runner-to-batter signals; and an outfield trap, designed to freeze forced baserunners, where if the runner stayed on base McCarthy would trap the ball and get at least a forceout and possibly a double play. After retiring as a player, McCarthy scouted, coached several colleges, and ran a bowling alley and saloon with Duffy. The Veterans Committee elected him to the Hall of Fame in 1946."
   65. sunnyday2 Posted: August 30, 2007 at 06:09 PM (#2504843)
I'd be pretty sure it was the BA and saloon that did it.
   66. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 30, 2007 at 07:01 PM (#2504983)
if all i had to do to get in the hall was run a saloon, i'd go out and get a small-business loan.
   67. DanG Posted: August 30, 2007 at 07:31 PM (#2505129)
Them BB Writers sho'nuff drinks a bit. (Or so I'm told.)
   68. Chris Cobb Posted: August 30, 2007 at 07:31 PM (#2505132)
I'd be pretty sure it was the BA and saloon that did it.

Where does McCarthy stand among the all-time BA (Bowling Alley) leaders among eligible players? Does anyone know what the BA ownership record for ballplayers is?
   69. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 30, 2007 at 08:59 PM (#2505474)
IIRC, Mugsy and Unckie Wilby owned a duckpin* alley/saloon in Baltimore. Indeed, I think I remember Burt Solomon writing that it made very good money and that the two were sore that the syndicate scheme brought them away from Balto and their prized establishment. Both men are in the Hall of Fame. But I cannot rest my case with that....

Mitch Williams ran a bowling alley after his career.

Can you imagine Mitch Williams bowling? He'd have to rent three lanes at once since he wouldn't hardly know where the ball was headed.

*Working from a several year old memory of Solomon's "Where They Ain't," but I think that he may have mentioned something about them inventing duck pins or popularizing them at least. But I don't quite remember how that worked, which is why I'm putting it in an annoying footnote=like item. Anyone else remember?
   70. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 30, 2007 at 09:01 PM (#2505478)
Oh, and John Burkett was a champion bowler, I think PBA. No idea whether he sported his own alley, though.
   71. Rob_Wood Posted: August 31, 2007 at 12:01 AM (#2505638)
Yikes, when I was a lad I used to bowl at Gabby Hartnett's bowling alley in suburban Chicago.
   72. Paul Wendt Posted: August 31, 2007 at 04:52 PM (#2506120)
69. Eric Chalek (Dr. Chaleeko) Posted: August 30, 2007 at 04:59 PM (#2505474)
IIRC, Mugsy and Unckie Wilby owned a duckpin* alley/saloon in Baltimore. Indeed, I think I remember Burt Solomon writing that it made very good money and that the two were sore that the syndicate scheme brought them away from Balto and their prized establishment.

IIRC, billiards and betting were important sports at the joint. It and they remained popular in Baltimore in 1899. Brooklyn didn't really take them away as St Louis did in 1900. At least in the public eye, their Baltimore business was a big part of the holdout and of the earlier effort, at least by McGraw, to get the major American Association underway with their club in Baltimore.

--
Beginning about when he moved to the Saint Louis Browns (1902), Charlie Hemphill lived in Youngstown OH between seasons. During a couple of winters it was noted that he worked at, then managed, a bowling alley. He also married during one of those offseasons. Maybe he married the daughter of a bowling magnate. (Manager Jimmy McAleer lived in Youngstown but that seems to be a coincidence.)
   73. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 31, 2007 at 05:04 PM (#2506130)
Slightly off topic, but one of the coolest things that I ever found in the census was that my gg-grandfather Michael Murphy was a billards instructor at the turn-of-the-last century. He was in his seventies at the time, too. Would have loved to have played a game with him, but he decided to pass away almost 60 years before I was born.
   74. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 31, 2007 at 09:09 PM (#2506562)
Michael Murphy

So you're people were Latvian, John?
   75. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 31, 2007 at 10:33 PM (#2506620)
So you're people were Latvian, John?


I'm not following you, Eric.

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