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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, December 31, 2007

2008 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end next Sunday (8 PM EST). Results will be posted at the same time.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.+
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Brady Anderson*, Harold Baines, Rod Beck*, Bert Blyleven, Dave Concepcion**, Andre Dawson, Shawon Dunston*, Chuck Finley*, Travis Fryman*, Rich Gossage, Tommy John, David Justice*, Chuck Knoblauch*, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Rob Nen*, Dave Parker, Tim Raines*, Jim Rice, Jose Rijo.*, Lee Smith, Todd Stottlemyre* and Alan Trammell.

+ Write-ins are allowed, but wont be included with the official tally.

* 1st-year candidates.

** Last year of eligibility.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 31, 2007 at 12:20 AM | 201 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 31, 2007 at 12:36 AM (#2657038)
In alphabetical order:

1) Bert Blyleven-SP: No, he's not an inner-circle pitcher, but eminently qualified based on career and the peak wasn't bad either. Very close to being the best AL pitcher in 1973.

2) Goose Gossage-RP: The greatest combined peak and career fireman of his time. The second greatest relief pitcher when he retired. Best relief pitcher for 1975. Best AL relief pitcher for 1978 and 1981.

3) Mark McGwire-1B: Great hitter and did enough in his relatively short career. However, I understand those who question his candidacy based on steroids. Best ML first baseman for 1998. Best AL first baseman for 1987, 1988, 1996.

4) Tim Raines-LF: Like Blyleven, not an elite great player in the Ruth-Williams-Mays mode, but clearly did enough for enshrinement. Comparable to Tony Gwynn in overall value. Best ML left fielder for 1986 and 1987 (I like Guerrero in '85, but that's arguable and Raines did have a monster season). Close to being the best NL left fielder in the NL in 1983. Close to being the best ML center fielder in 1984.

5) Lee Smith-RP: I don't really care about the saves record, but I do think he's still worthy of the HOF (HoM analysis convinced me that my 2007 HOF ballot should have had him on it) . Hard career to analyze since he straddles the Gossage and Eckersley eras.

6) Alan Trammell-SS: I think Ozzie Smith was worthy and Alan was better. That' enough for me. Best ML shortstop for 1987 and 1990. Best AL shortstop for 1988.
   2. The District Attorney Posted: December 31, 2007 at 12:51 AM (#2657047)
1. Bert Blyleven
2. Tim Raines (Senior!)
3. Alan Trammell
4. Rich "Goose" Gossage
5. Dale Murphy
6. Andre Dawson
7. Dave Concepcion
8. Lee Smith

See discussion thread for justifications, except I took off John, I didn't convince myself writing it...
   3. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: December 31, 2007 at 12:57 AM (#2657049)
anybody can vote?
   4. kwarren Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:01 AM (#2657051)
Raines
Blyleven
McGwire

in that order

VERY CLOSE

Trammell
Dawson
   5. Repoz Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:08 AM (#2657055)
Blyleven
Gossage
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   6. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:10 AM (#2657057)
Gossage
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   7. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:15 AM (#2657059)
Raines
Trammell
Blyleven
Gossage

I'm keeping McGwire on hold until I'm comfortable about ignoring PEDs during the PED era.
   8. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:20 AM (#2657060)
anybody can vote?


Yep. Come one and come all!
   9. Wes Parkers Mood (Mike Green) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:22 AM (#2657061)
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell

I'll get Gossage next year. McGwire was, in my opinion, once PEDs are accounted for, a slightly lesser player than Fred McGriff. I'd think hard about him in 2011 or so.
   10. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:26 AM (#2657064)
Raines
Gossage
Blyleven
Trammell
McGwire

All above are in the HOM, and should be in the HOF.

Also voting for:
Concepcion: Phenomenal defensive shortstop and provided more than an acceptable level of offense at the position.
Mattingly: Tremendous peak, was a well-rounded hitter and fantastic gloveman.
Murphy: Monster peak, and an excellent all-around player.

The above 8 gentlemen all fit in the Hall of Fame given the level of play acheived by those presently enshrined, therefore all 8 get my vote.
   11. Fridas Boss Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:29 AM (#2657067)
Bert Blyleven
Rich Gossage
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   12. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:34 AM (#2657070)
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
   13. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:36 AM (#2657071)
Raines
Blyleven
Trammel
McGwire
Dawson
   14. Guapo Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:44 AM (#2657076)
VOTING FOR:

1. Bert Blyleven- Count me as one of those people who saw Blyleven as a borderline candidate for many years, but is now thoroughly sold on his candidacy. He had two separate stretches during the mid-70s and mid-80s as one of the best pitchers in baseball. Really, no one else with similar credentials has been excluded from the HOF.

2. Lee Smith- Ironically, it seems like the save record hurt his candidacy with some, since it was perceived that he took advantage of favorable usage patterns that allowed him to rack up a lot of saves. But he was truly an elite closer and turned in some fantastic seasons under less than ideal conditions (Wrigley Field in the mid 80s) and also had some solid years for Boston and St. Louis as well. I find it difficult to evaluate closers, but I think Smith is a step above his comparable peers.

3. Tim Raines- a wonderful player, easy to root for and probably the best player in the NL during the mid 80s.

4. Mark McGwire- pass.

5. Dale Murphy- I always find it strange that Murphy isn't in. Back in the 1980s when he was at his peak there seemed to be no debate that he was a future Hall of Famer.

6. Dave Parker- The best player in the NL during the late 70s, then had a nice mini renaissance as an elder statesman for Cincy and Oakland.
   15. Baldrick Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:44 AM (#2657078)
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
   16. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:49 AM (#2657081)
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
McGwire
Gossage
Dawson
Murphy
Smith
Parker
John
   17. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:51 AM (#2657082)
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
Gossage
Dawson
   18. AROM Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:53 AM (#2657083)
I thought the thread earlier in the week was for our votes, but mine are:

Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
Gossage
McGwire
Dawson
   19. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 01:58 AM (#2657085)
Bert Blyleven
Rich Gossage
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
   20. Mark Donelson Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:00 AM (#2657086)
I'm voting for the five I supported/support for the HOM:

Blyleven
Raines
McGwire
Gossage
Trammell

Plus three more I would not like to see removed from the ballot (I wouldn't vote for these guys if not for the 5 percent rule, though):

Dawson
Murphy
Parker
   21. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:27 AM (#2657091)
In alphabetical order:

Blyleven - not a slam dunk, but a solid borderline candidate, even for a relatively small Hall
Gossage - the last reliver I'll likely vote for until Rivera, and an easy choice
Raines - the best of the entire lot
Trammell - easy choice as well, especially considering his position
   22. Roy Hobbs of WIFFLE Ball Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:28 AM (#2657092)
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Andre Dawson
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
   23. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:34 AM (#2657095)
Raines
Gossage

-- MWE
   24. Tiboreau Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:42 AM (#2657099)
Tim "Rock" Raines
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
Rich "Goose" Gossage
   25. Oklahawg Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:59 AM (#2657107)
I have always held that the HOF is for players who defined their position during their era. Each candidate should also have a "career year" that stands as an icon across the generations, especially those who are first-ballot entries.

George Brett and Mike Schmidt are obvious examples of two players sharing that honor for one period. Each had a great 1980 season.

Its why McGwire gets in on my ballot. Even with the PED debate he was the prototypical power hitter of the 90s. Best every year? Certainly not. He had a couple of stellar seasons, though, and the aggregate numbers are impressive, even if you discount, say, 586 HR down to 500 HR.

My next candidate would have to be a reliever, but who is a clearer image of their era's reliever, Gossage or Smith? Smith was more dominant more years, so he gets my nod. Still might wait a year, though.

Parker, Rice and Dawson are all three good OF, and Parker and Dawson have the added advantage of being stellar defensively. The problem for me with each of these is that they were not the MVP of their team (in my opinion) during that team's best season(s). I'll pass on all three.

So, for me, its McGwire only, and I'll hold my ballot until the last day as I think about Smith.
   26. Honkie Kong Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:06 AM (#2657110)
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Dale Murphy
Richard "Goose" Gossage
Tim Raines
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:12 AM (#2657113)
Tim Raines
Goose Gossage
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
   28. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:15 AM (#2657116)
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

Same list I voted for over at Posnanski's site. Apparently, alliteration aids ascension of athletes.
   29. John DiFool2 Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:36 AM (#2657124)
Goose
Raines
Smitty
Bert
Trammell
Big Mac
   30. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2657127)
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
Gossage
McGwire
   31. CraigK Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:50 AM (#2657130)
Harold Baines,
Bert Blyleven,
Andre Dawson,
Rich Gossage,
Tommy John,
Mark McGwire,
Tim Raines*,
Alan Trammell.
   32. jamcadbury Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:03 AM (#2657133)
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
   33. BDC Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:05 AM (#2657134)
Blyleven
Raines
   34. Rob_Wood Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:32 AM (#2657141)
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   35. baudib Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:36 AM (#2657143)
1. Tim Raines
Devastating player at his peak; arguably the best player in the NL in the mid-80s. He and Rickey were contemporaries and the two were essentially even until Rickey pulled ahead in the 1990s (for instance, Bill James rated Raines as a better player than Rickey in the 1988 Abstract.

I was doing the Keltner on Raines in my head a few minutes ago and it seems clear to me that he passes the hurdles pretty easily.

Of course, this is all based on my determination that Raines is one of the 50 best baseball players in history.

2. Goose Gossage
Absolutely devastating peak as high-leverage fireman. Probably the perfect sabermetric closer; problem is, it's unlikely very many relievers in history could have done what Gossage did for as many years as he did.

3. Bert Blyleven
I'm not really excited about it but he belongs.
   36. baudib Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:53 AM (#2657146)
I should clarify that I have Raines as one of the 50 best MLB players currently eligible for the Hall of Fame. Adding Negro Leaguers and active players to the mix pushes him down.
   37. JJ1986 Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:55 AM (#2657148)
In alphabetical order,

Rik Aalbert "Bert" Blyleven
Richard "Goose" Gossage
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim "Rock" Raines
Alan Trammell
   38. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:59 AM (#2657149)
Blyleven
Gossage
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   39. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:03 AM (#2657150)
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Goose Gossage
Dale Murphy
Bert Blyleven
   40. DCW3 Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:22 AM (#2657156)
Blyleven
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   41. DCW3 Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:34 AM (#2657157)
3) Mark McGwire-1B: Great hitter and did enough in his relatively short career. However, I understand those who question his candidacy based on steroids. Best ML first baseman for 1998. Best AL first baseman for 1987, 1988, 1996.

Wait a minute here. Obviously, it doesn't matter to the ballot, but I'm just curious: how does McGwire rank as the top AL 1B in 1988? Offensively, he's probably behind McGriff, Brett, Hrbek, Murray and Davis, and only a little ahead of Mattingly. Was McGwire's defense really that good?
   42. TheBoneMan Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:42 AM (#2657159)
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   43. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:51 AM (#2657163)
And Andre Dawson. The discussion thread convinced me.
   44. knucklehead7 Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:57 AM (#2657168)
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   45. Red Menace Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:01 AM (#2657170)
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   46. Guts Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:06 AM (#2657172)
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
   47. Guts Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:07 AM (#2657174)
Whoops, also Goose Gossage
   48. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:24 AM (#2657178)
Wait a minute here. Obviously, it doesn't matter to the ballot, but I'm just curious: how does McGwire rank as the top AL 1B in 1988? Offensively, he's probably behind McGriff, Brett, Hrbek, Murray and Davis, and only a little ahead of Mattingly. Was McGwire's defense really that good?


Defense? No. Hitting with RISP? Yes.
   49. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:29 AM (#2657181)
McGwire
Raines
Blyleven
Gossage
Trammell

I can't support Dawson, Murphy, Parker, or Rice because I see them all as fairly similar candidates -- all borderline at best -- and I don't want the Hall to be that big. And if you let some of these guys in, then how do you justify keeping guys like Dwight Evans, Jack Clark, and Fred Lynn out?
   50. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:38 AM (#2657186)
3. Gambling Rent Posted: December 30, 2007 at 06:57 PM (#2657049)
anybody can vote?


Everyone except Rob Neyer and Keith Law. (laughs manically).
   51. Brent Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:54 AM (#2657187)
In rank order of preference:

1. Blyleven
2. Raines
3. McGwire
4. Gossage
5. Trammell
6. Mattingly
   52. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: December 31, 2007 at 07:41 AM (#2657194)
Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, and Alan Trammell.
   53. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 31, 2007 at 08:27 AM (#2657204)
Voting For:

McGwire
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
Gossage
   54. Ron Johnson Posted: December 31, 2007 at 09:11 AM (#2657210)
In rank order of preference:

1. Raines
2. McGwire
3. Blyleven
4. Trammell
6. Gossage

(The number's intentional -- I see Gossage as marginal. The others aren't)
   55. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 31, 2007 at 10:10 AM (#2657216)
My votes go to:

Bert Blyleven
Rich Gossage
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   56. SWW Posted: December 31, 2007 at 11:29 AM (#2657221)
Candidates listed in alphabetical order. Which will artificially inflate Bert's vote total when it gets calculated HOM-style, but that's life.

<u>2008 Ballot</u>
Rik Aalbert Blyleven – “The Dutch Master”
In the words of Rob Neyer a couple years ago, “Blyleven's qualifications are so obvious, so compelling that reasonable citizens of the reality-based community have lined up behind him everywhere.” And more are joining in. Even Tracy Ringolsby.
Andre Nolan Dawson – “Hawk”
Yeah, yeah, the OBP is awful. But the career numbers he put up when he was getting on base are noting to sniff at. Plus, he's part of my covert campaign to pack the Hall with Expos.
Richard Michael Gossage – “Goose”
Think he'll get it this year? I do, and about time. I remember him as the Mariano Rivera of his day, and I think the stats bear it out.
Mark David McGwire - "Big Mac"
Voted for him last year. Gonna vote for him again. The numbers are there. I'm not thrilled about it, but they're a lot clearer than trying to find a confession or a formal accusation or something besides Congressional testimony to judge him on.
Timothy Raines - "Rock"
Howdy, newcomer. I don't think he's going to end up close to Dawson in the official balloting, and that's kind of weird. A standout leadoff hitter. Vive les Expos.
Alan Stuart Trammell
I renew my contention that, if he and Lou Whitaker had retired the same year, they would both be a lot closer to induction. Cause that's the voters for ya.

I'm really close on Dale Murphy, but I just couldn't pull the trigger. I'd definitely go with him before I'd select Jim Rice.
   57. Beauregard Posted: December 31, 2007 at 11:43 AM (#2657223)
(1) Bert Blyleven
(2) Dave Concepcion
(3) Mark McGwire
(4) Tim Raines
(5) Alan Trammell

In a perfect world votes:

(6) Dick Allen
(7) Jimmy Wynn
   58. King Anaconda Posted: December 31, 2007 at 12:42 PM (#2657226)
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   59. karlmagnus Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:16 PM (#2657238)
McGwire
Blyleven
Gossage
Raines
Trammell
Rice

if the voting system wasn't so restricted, Parisian Bob Caruthers and several others would rank ahead of all of them.
   60. buddaley Posted: December 31, 2007 at 02:24 PM (#2657242)
Blyleven
Raines
McGwire
Gossage

Even granting equally fine defense but at a more crucial position, I fail to see how a few more years of mediocre to poor offense qualifies Murphy for the Hall of Fame rather than Mattingly. Career wise, Mattingly's line is .307/.358/.471 with an OPS+ of 127. Murphy's is .265/.346/.469 with an OPS+ of 121. Each had 6 outstanding years, one or two more decent years and a few mediocre to poor years, with Murphy extending his decline longer. I don't think Mattingly is close to being a HOFer. I can't see why Murphy is any more deserving. I will grant that those numbers for CF are more impressive than those for 1B, and that except for BA Murphy is superior, but the difference is not like comparing Jimmy Wynn to Mark Grace. Mattingly was a legitimate power hitting first baseman at his peak. But like Murphy it was a short peak, and disqualifies him-and Murphy-from consideration.
   61. Delorians Posted: December 31, 2007 at 03:53 PM (#2657260)
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Lee Smith
Jack Morris

Same list I had in the prelim. My vote for Morris is not because of the big game reputation or the fact that he had the most wins in the 80s, but because, even if you extend beyond round numbers ('78-'92), he is likely the best career pitcher of a generation (from Blyleven to Clemens) and I think that is worth a vote.
   62. Wockenfuss Conspiracy! Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:17 PM (#2657273)
Raines
Blyleven
McGwire
Trammell
Gossage
Murphy
   63. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:28 PM (#2657287)
Hey I get to vote!

Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   64. Mbvlckd Posted: December 31, 2007 at 04:56 PM (#2657318)
Easy picks: Blyleven, Raines, Trammell.

Tough pick, but in: McGwire

Tough not-quites: Rice, Murphy, Dawson

Agnostic: Gossage.

Blyleven, Raines and Trammell are not inner-circle Hall of Famers, but they all easily meet established Cooperstown standards.

I'm not a self-righteous prig about steroids, but they ARE a distraction at the least. That said, McGwire's a Hall of Famer even letting some air out of his stats.

Rice, Murphy, and Dawson all have solid cases, but ultimately fall short by virtue of a powerful negative I can't get beyond: for Rice, his short peak and underwhelming second act; for Murphy, his sudden decline from superstar to replacement level, with no league-average stops along the way; for Dawson, his .323 career OBP.

Tack on Andre's decline phase to Dale's prime and you've got an easy Hall of Famer.

I'm extremely skeptical that a relief pitcher's value is understood well enough to go ahead and induct a Goose Gossage (or a Fingers ir a Sutter, for that matter). Goose had a fine career, but until we can accurately quantify how much difference he really made, I'm going to pass on him.

So my ballot is Blyleven, Raines, Trammell, and McGwire.
   65. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:13 PM (#2657338)
I'm an internet writer. Does that bar me from voting?

Here's my ballot:

Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines

Close, but no cigar for Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Rich Gossage
   66. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:17 PM (#2657342)
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Goose Gossage
Burt Blyleven
Dale Murphy
   67. Outdoor Miner Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:20 PM (#2657345)
Blyleven
Gossage
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   68. sunnyday2 Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:24 PM (#2657352)
My philosophy:

1. Cooperstown is a BIG hall. My personal HoF would be a small hall. But this isn't a vote for my personal HoF, it's a vote (albeit virtual) for Cooperstown which, did I mention, is a BIG hall.

2. So, take Cooperstown, delete the obvious mistakes (Lloyd Waner, Jesse Haines et al), and find the baseline above which the Coop has elected more or less everybody, or rather, more or less everybody through about the 1960s.

3. Support everybody who is above the baseline (did I mention, minus obvious mistakes) that Cooperstown has established over 70 years.

4. The BBWAA and VC have raised the standards high high high above that baseline in recent years with the result that only about half of the players above the historical baseline are getting in. Ironically the standard is about where I would have it for my personal small hall, but it is patently unfair to modern players to pretend that this is the "real" standard for Cooperstown. It's not.

5. So, vote for 10, This year the best 10 are:

Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Alan Trammell

Also above the historical baseline but not top 10 this year: Tommy John, Jack Morris, Dave Parker, Lee Smith.

Of course, there are players in the 5-20 year range who dropped off the HoF ballot via the 5 percent rule who are vastly better than John, Morris, Parker and Smith, as well as some of the top 10. I mean, Grich, Will Clark, you know who they are.

Remember, keeping worthy players out of the HoF is every bit is much of a dereliction of duty on the part of the BBWAA, VC, Cooperstown, MLB et al as the Frankie Frisch selections are.
   69. Stinky Pile of Neifi Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:29 PM (#2657357)
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
   70. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:36 PM (#2657362)
My votes alphabetically:

Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion**
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines*
Alan Trammell

write-ins:

Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich
   71. Mister High Standards Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:40 PM (#2657366)
Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage, Dale Murphy, Tim Raines*, Alan Trammell.
   72. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 31, 2007 at 05:46 PM (#2657374)
write-ins:

Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich


Add those to my ballot, too, even though I know they won't be counted. They're both HoF-worthy and should be in there with Trammell.
   73. JMPH Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:06 PM (#2657387)
1) Mark McGwire
2) Tim Raines
3) Bert Blyleven
   74. Posada Posse Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:16 PM (#2657395)
Bert Blyleven
Rich Gossage
Tommy John
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   75. If you have a bad sandwich, it's Tim Hamulack Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:19 PM (#2657399)
Raines
Blyleven
Gossage
Murphy
   76. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:30 PM (#2657407)
1. McGwire
2. Gossage
3. Raines
4. Trammell
5. Blyleven
6. Dawson
Write-ins
7. Whitaker
8. Will Clark
9. Bobby Grich
10. Ron Santo
   77. ckash Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:45 PM (#2657426)
1. Blyleven
2. Gossage
3. Raines
4. Trammel
5. Concepcion
   78. Anthony Giacalone Posted: December 31, 2007 at 06:50 PM (#2657429)
I'm a big Hall guy.

Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Rich Gossage
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

I'm a little surprised by the complete lack of love for Tommy John. John gets weighed down because he pitched until he was 46. If he had retired at 39, he would have been 237-173 with an ERA+ of around 119 (totals very similar to Blyleven's and he has twice as many AS games as BB and better CYA totals than BB).

And Lee Smith too. I know that many remember him as an "over-rated" closer in the early-1990s but if he isn't a HOF closer then we really shouldn't have but one or two in the Hall at all.

Murphy gets in, while Rice doesn't, because of position scarcity. If Murphy was playing in any NL park other than Fulton County or Wrigley, he wouldn't even be considered. His home/road splits are extreme (.250/.324/.440 in 4500 road PAs). Wow. I better submit this before I change my mind of Murphy.
   79. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: December 31, 2007 at 07:11 PM (#2657458)
John gets weighed down because he pitched until he was 46. If he had retired at 39, he would have been 237-173 with an ERA+ of around 119 (totals very similar to Blyleven's and he has twice as many AS games as BB and better CYA totals than BB).

It's actually 118 (thank you, Play Index for making that easy to figure).

Frankly, his numbers wouldn't have been that similar. 237-171 as you say, but Blyleven was at 287-250. John had 3709 IP at that point. Blyleven had 4970.

Also, given that you mention ERA+, John had better defenses behind him.

I voted for John also, but there's a bigger gap than you're letting on.
   80. Howie Menckel Posted: December 31, 2007 at 07:19 PM (#2657465)
John has a 110 ERA+ in 4710 IP vs Blyleven's 118 in 4970. That's a significant difference.

If you scale back John thru age 39, he loses 1000 IP. Now he's similar to Blyleven in ERA+, but he's 1250 IP short of Bert.

John's only IP top 10s in a season are 2-5-8-10.
His ERA+ top 10s are 3-3-6-7-8 - and 3 times below 200 IP when he did it.

Blyleven's IP top 10s are 1-1-4-4-4-5-7-7-7-9-10. No comparison.
Blyleven's ERA+ top 10s are 1-2-2-2-4-5-5-6-8-9-10-10. No comparison.
   81. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 31, 2007 at 07:22 PM (#2657468)
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepción
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   82. rawagman Posted: December 31, 2007 at 07:23 PM (#2657469)
Copied verbatim from the ballot discussion:
A little blurb on my methodolgy - if I voted for them in the Hall of Merit, I think they belong in the Hall of Fame as well. I also beleive in a big hall, so I reserve the right to vote for guys for whom I have not elected to my Personal Hall of Merit as the HOM allows only so many players into the highest level of honour, whereas I would open the doors to a marginally higher number.
Without further ado:
1) Tim Raines
2) Bert Blyleven
3) Rich Gossage
4) Mark McGwire
5) Alan Trammell
6) Dale Murphy
7) Andre Dawson
8) Jim Rice
9) Don Mattingly

There is no set order among those players, but the last 3 are guys who only received marginal support from me in the HOM who only fit into a larger hall of fame.
   83. Ziggy Posted: December 31, 2007 at 07:38 PM (#2657483)
1. Raines
2. Blyleven
3. Trammell
4. McGwire
   84. Anthony Giacalone Posted: December 31, 2007 at 08:01 PM (#2657499)
It's actually 118 (thank you, Play Index for making that easy to figure).

Frankly, his numbers wouldn't have been that similar. 237-171 as you say, but Blyleven was at 287-250. John had 3709 IP at that point. Blyleven had 4970.

Also, given that you mention ERA+, John had better defenses behind him.

I voted for John also, but there's a bigger gap than you're letting on.


Yeah. True, Chris. Also, John's support in CYA comes from his playing on better teams that Blyleven. And Blyleven's ERA+ would have been more than 119 if he had stopped a little earlier too. Someone who is a math guy might be able to better answer whether 66 games over .500 in 408 decisions is better than 37 games over through 537 dedcisions. I can't do that; it makes my head hurt.

I wasn't saying that John was as good as Blyleven, but just that John was good and I'm afraid that his support is lower than it should be because we most people remember him as either being 1) Frank Jobe's Frankenstein or 2) that sucky old pitcher in the 1980s. He was much better than that and I don't like to penalize guys for playing longer than they should.
   85. Francisco Posted: December 31, 2007 at 08:24 PM (#2657513)
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
McGwire
Gossage
Concepcion
   86. Jim Sp Posted: December 31, 2007 at 08:30 PM (#2657521)
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   87. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: December 31, 2007 at 08:45 PM (#2657536)
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy - this is a 'keep on the ballot' kind of vote, not that I think he merits enshrinement. Though I wish he did.
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   88. Chris Fluit Posted: December 31, 2007 at 08:52 PM (#2657545)
1. Bert Blyleven
2. Dave Concepcion
3. Andre Dawson
4. Rich Gossage
5. Mark McGwire
6. Jack Morris
7. Tim Raines
8. Jim Rice
9. Lee Smith
10. Alan Trammell
   89. user Posted: December 31, 2007 at 10:05 PM (#2657630)
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepción
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

with trammell, raines and blyleven being no-brainers. Personally I'd vote for Mcgwire certainly think it's reasonable to leave him off. Gossage, concepcion and Dawson are just the right side of the borderline - in part for the reasons sunnydat alludes to in his post (even correcting for the HOF having elected the wrong guys at the bottom it's till a big Hall).
   90. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: December 31, 2007 at 10:36 PM (#2657662)
My ballot (in no particular order):

Tim Raines
Naysayers have claimed that he had "5 or so good years" and "17 years of mediocrity". In truth, he was near dominant from 1981-1994, above average from 1994-1998 and a decent role player in 1999 and 2001-2002. Seeing him come back to the Expos in 2001 was an amazing highlight for a fan of a dying franchise.

Bert Blyleven
No-brainer.

mark Mcgwire
I think the fact that his whole era is now being viewed with suspicion has lowered the righteous indignation level for many sportswriters. Hard to believe he was the "starting" 1B on the MLB/Mastercard All-Century team. How the mighty have fallen.

Goose Gossage

Alan Trammell

Andre Dawson-

Write Ins
Ron Santo
Dick Allen
   91. Kenn Posted: December 31, 2007 at 11:34 PM (#2657694)
Based on my past HOM votes

Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Rich Gossage
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

John is the hardest to leave off, Concepcion and Murphy the sketchiest placed on.
   92. EricC Posted: December 31, 2007 at 11:48 PM (#2657700)
If I voted strictly "by the system", Finley would be in and Gossage out. Given Gossage's unique career, and that my system "punishes" him for his medicore starting season in 1976, I'll bow to popular consensus.

I'm a big-hall advocate, so I'm submitting a 10-player ballot. If write-ins were allowed without restriction, I'd write in about 42 additional players throughout baseball history as worthy of a vote for induction.

+ indicates that the player is worthy of a small (half size) hall.

Baines
Blyleven+
Concepcion
Dawson
Gossage
John
McGwire+
Parker
Raines+
Trammell+
   93. HGM Posted: January 01, 2008 at 12:15 AM (#2657714)
Blyleven
Gossage
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Smith
   94. Andrew M Posted: January 01, 2008 at 12:23 AM (#2657717)
I'm with Sunny on this one. I'm not a big hall guy, but Cooperstown is already a big hall. None of the guys I'm voting for would be close to the worst player there.

Blyleven
Concepcion
Dawson
Gossage
John
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Smith
Trammell
   95. rdfc Posted: January 01, 2008 at 01:25 AM (#2657734)
Yes, without a doubt

1. Tim Raines - The second greatest leadoff hitter of all time. Perhaps the best player in baseball in the mid-eighties

2. Bert Blyleven - This is getting silly. Blyleven is better than at least a third of the pitchers already in the Hall. Had not only a great career, but his peak in the early seventies was also something special

3. Goose Gossage - The third greatest relief pitcher of all time, after Hoyt Wilhelm and Mariano Rivera



Yes, after some thought

4. Alan Trammell - A closer call , but his long, excellent career gets him on my ballot

5. Lee Smith - a very close call, which has nothing to do with the fact that he was once the all-time saves leader, but instead his long run of success with many teams including a few that had a great hitters park as their home park

6. Mark McGwire - A really close call. A one-dimensional player, but what a dimension. Since he is such a close call, the steroid issue is relevant, however. I'll flip a coin on him, and it comes up positive this year.


No, after thinking.

1 Andrew Dawson - The closest call on this side. Dawson was a spectacular player with the Expos. Unfortunately, he was injured and by the time he got famous with the Cubs he was a one-dimensional player

2. Jim Rice - A great hitter, but not for very long. His peak was short, and his career was short, so he falls short

3. Dave Concepcion - A fine player for a very long time time at a key position, and more worthy of this honor than Tony Perez, but I just don't see him as having quite enough value.


The answer has always been No

1. Dale Murphy - A Hall of Fame quality peak, but the rest of his career had all the value of a Tombstone pizza

2 - Dave Parker - A fine slugger, but his drug habit put a big hole in the middle of his career

3- Tommy John - Pitched for a long time for some very good teams, but was never really a great pitcher. Belongs in the Medical Patients' Hall of Fame.

4 - Don Mattingly - Though a bit overrated, his peak was excellent. But he just wasn't very productive once his back problems set in, and he learned patience at the plate too late in his career


Newbies who deserved a quick look and a quick No

1 - Jose Rijo - Great pitcher at his peak, but he didn't pitch anywhere near enough innings

2 - David Justice - Career fell off a cliff after 1997


Absolutely and unconditionally No

1- Jack Morris - His 3.90 ERA is almost half a run higher than that of any pitcher in the Hall. Yes, he had 1 phenomenal World Series, but his 3.80 career ERA in the postseason shows that he was no great shakes in October anything. He was not the best pitcher of the 1980s - Dave Stieb was - and being the best of a poor group of pitchers isn't much of a reason to support anyone anyway.
   96. EddieA Posted: January 01, 2008 at 02:02 AM (#2657742)
Blyleven
McGwire
Raines
L. Smith
Trammell
   97. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:21 AM (#2657761)
1. Bert Blyleven
2. Tim Raines
3. Goose Gossage
   98. depletion Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:44 AM (#2657769)
Bert Blyleven
Tommy John
Alan Trammell
   99. kwarren Posted: January 01, 2008 at 05:49 AM (#2657793)

My next candidate would have to be a reliever


Really ? Why ?
   100. kwarren Posted: January 01, 2008 at 05:56 AM (#2657795)
Wait a minute here. Obviously, it doesn't matter to the ballot, but I'm just curious: how does McGwire rank as the top AL 1B in 1988? Offensively, he's probably behind McGriff, Brett, Hrbek, Murray and Davis, and only a little ahead of Mattingly. Was McGwire's defense really that good?

Defense? No. Hitting with RISP? Yes.


This has now become a skill? It's about as repeatable from year to year as hitting HR(s) off the fair pole.
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