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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, December 04, 2007

2008 Results: Raines, Lundy and Saberhagen Send Off the Hall of Merit’s Old Election Schedule!

In his first year of eligibility, leadoff superstar Tim Raines collected a hefty 98% of all possible points for induction into the Hall of Merit.

Legendary NeL shortstop Dick Lundy won election after 65 previous attempts with 32% of all possible points, a big increase since he was in 16th place in the last election.

Last but not least, ace pitcher Bret Saberhagen earned 29% of all possible points in his 4th year of eligibility.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Reggie Smith, Bucky Walters, Tommy Leach, John McGraw (big jump!), Cannonball Dick Redding, Kirby Puckett and Bob Johnson.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Tim Raines              1172   50  46  2        1                             1
 2   16  Dick Lundy               389   25      5  2  1  2  5  2  2        2  2     2   
 3    4  Bret Saberhagen          344   24      1  3  6  3  1     1  2     1  1  1  2  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4    5  Reggie Smith             319   23      1  4  3  1  1     3  1  2     1  3  2  1
 5    7  Bucky Walters            287   21      2  3  2  1  1  1  1  1  2  1     1  1  4
 6    8  Tommy Leach              275   20      3  2  2     2     2  1     1     3  2  2
 7   15  John McGraw              273   17      2  4  1  3     1  1  1     2  1        1
 8    6  Cannonball Dick Redding  272   18   1  4  2  1  1  1     1           2     3  2
 9   10  Kirby Puckett            260   19   1  2  1  1  3  1  1  1        1     4  1  2
10    9  Bob Johnson              249   19      1  1  2  1  1  2  4     1     3  1  1  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   11  Gavvy Cravath            226   18   1  1           2  4        3  3  1     3   
12   13  Luis Tiant               223   18      2           1  2  2  4  1  1  2     3   
13   14  Phil Rizzuto             221   18            3  2  2  1     3  1  1  1  1  2  1
14   17  Hugh Duffy               219   15      2  1  2  2     1  1  2  2              2
15   20  David Cone               208   17      1        1     6  1  1  2  1  1     1  2
16   21  Ken Singleton            198   15         4        2     1        2  3     2  1
17   12  Tony Perez               182   11      3  1  1  1  1     1     1  1  1         
18   19  Bus Clarkson             177   13      2        2     2  2  1  1        2     1
19   39  Dizzy Dean               172   11         3  2     2     1  1        1  1      
20   31  Vic Willis               169   10      2  2        4           1        1      
21   22  Tommy Bridges            161   10      1  4           1  1           1  1     1
22   23  Dave Concepción          157   13         1     2  1  1     1  1  2  1  1  2   
23   28  Don Newcombe             150   14            2              3  1  2  2  3  1   
24   24  Burleigh Grimes          150   12         1     2  1     2  1     2  1  1     1
25   18  George Van Haltren       147    9      1  1     1  4  1     1                  
26   33  Lou Brock                142   10      1  1  1  1        1  1  2     1  1      
27   27  Mickey Welch             141   10         1  2  2        2  1           1  1   
28   32  Dale Murphy              135   12            2        1  2  2     1     1  1  2
29   29  Rick Reuschel            132    9      1  2  1  1                 1  1     1  1
30   25  Albert Belle             125   11            1     1  2        3  1  1     1  1
31   35  Elston Howard            118   12               1        1  1  2  1  2  1  1  2
32   37  Norm Cash                118   10            1     1     1  4        1  2      
33   38  Bobby Bonds              111    9         1     1  2        1     1     1  1  1
34   36  Bob Elliott              110   10                     3  2  1           2  2   
35   30  Tommy John               109    7         1  1  1     3     1                  
36   34  Larry Doyle               99    7            3     1  1           1  1         
37   26  Rusty Staub               90    8               1     1  1  1  1     1  1  1   
38   42  Lee Smith                 86    6      1  1     1        1                    2
39   43  Carl Mays                 84    6            1  1  2           1  1            
40   49  Ed Williamson             80    6      1     1        1  1                 1  1
41   40  Wally Schang              80    5      1     1     1  1        1               
42   44  Pie Traynor               79    8                  1  1        2     1     1  2
43   47  Ben Taylor                79    7            1  1           2     1           2
44   41  Bill Monroe               73    5      1     1  1              1              1
45   51  Vern Stephens             67    5            1     1  1        1  1            
46   58  Johnny Pesky              63    7                        1     1     2  1  1  1
47   45  Bert Campaneris           62    5                  1  1  1  1           1      
48   48  Dave Bancroft             60    5               2                 2     1      
49   46  Orlando Cepeda            57    5               1     1        1        2      
50   56T Ernie Lombardi            55    4         1              1        2            
51   50  Sal Bando                 53    4                  1  2           1            
52   72T Urban Shocker             52    5                           2  2              1
53T  52  Chuck Klein               50    4         1                    1     1  1      
53T  59  Leroy Matlock             50    4                  1  2                    1   
55   74  Fred Dunlap               48    4      1                             2     1   
56T  70  Ed Cicotte                48    3      1              1        1               
56T  61  Wilbur Cooper             48    3      1        1                    1         
58   76T Lefty Gomez               46    5                  1                 2     1  1
59   54  Lance Parrish             46    4               1                 3            
60   55  Frank Tanana              46    3      1        1                          1   
61   71  Al Rosen                  45    4                        1  1  1     1         
62   60  Bruce Sutter              44    4                  1        1     1        1   
63   78T George J. Burns           40    4                        1        2        1   
64   56T Tony Mullane              40    3                  1     1  1                  
65   66  Jimmy Ryan                38    3            1                 1  1            
66   72T Frank Chance              37    3                     1     1  1               
67   53  Addie Joss                37    2   1                    1                     
68T  62  Thurman Munson            36    3               1              1     1         
68T  65  Jack Quinn                36    3            1                 1        1      
70   63T Buddy Bell                35    2         1              1                     
71   75  Jim Kaat                  34    3                           1  2               
72   67T Dwight Gooden             29    3                                 2  1         
73T  80  Jim Rice                  27    3                           1           1  1   
73T  67T Rabbit Maranville         27    3                                 1  1  1      
75   82T Luis Aparicio             27    2               1              1               
76T n/e  Luke Easter               23    1      1                                       
76T  82T Tony Oliva                23    1      1                                       
78   69  Sam Rice                  22    3                                    1     1  1
79   78T Dave Parker               22    2                              2               
80  101  Bobby Veach               21    2                           1        1         
81   81  Frank Howard              19    2                              1        1      
82   85  Jim McCormick             18    2                                 1     1      
83  n/e  Chuck Finley              17    1            1                                 
84   82T Brian Downing             16    1               1                              
85   86  Jose Canseco              15    1                  1                           
86T  97T Tony Lazzeri              14    2                                       1     1
86T  63T Don Mattingly             14    2                                       1     1
88   87  Jack Clark                14    1                     1                        
89T  88T Sam Leever                13    1                        1                     
89T  90T Carlos Morán              13    1                        1                     
91   90T Dizzy Trout               12    1                           1                  
92T  93T Fielder Jones             10    1                                 1            
92T n/e  Gene Tenace               10    1                                 1            
94T 101  Elmer Smith                9    1                                    1         
94T  97T Jack Morris                9    1                                    1         
96T  93T Tommy Bond                 8    1                                       1      
96T n/e  Jack Fournier              8    1                                       1      
96T  93T Virgil Trucks              8    1                                       1      
99T 101  Charlie Hough              7    1                                          1   
99T n/e  Mickey Vernon              7    1                                          1   
101T n/e  Ron Cey                    6    1                                             1
101T  97T Dom DiMaggio               6    1                                             1
101T 101  Jim Fregosi                6    1                                             1
101T n/e  Orel Hershiser             6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Harold Baines(76T), Tony Fernandez(90T), Hack Wilson(88T), George Kell(97T), 
Bill Madlock(101), Al Oliver(106), Paul O'Neill(93T).
Ballots Cast: 50

Thanks to OCF and Ron for helping me out with the tally today. Thanks to Patrick W for lending a helping hand today, too.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 04, 2007 at 02:34 AM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:05 AM (#2633155)
The news is great. But the table looks like @$$.
   2. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:05 AM (#2633157)
McGraw didn't have such a big jump, it's just that some of his supporters didn't vote in 2007.
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:07 AM (#2633159)
Congrats to Tim, Dick and Bret!

Plaques will up sometime this week.

To everyone:

Though I understand the urge to make a valedictory speech or even a requiem for the end of our normal election schedule, I'd rather not. I expect to see everyone of you at our next election next year around this time, not to mention our annual mock HOF election coming up in a few weeks. Plus, we should be busy with other projects. It will be different, but exciting, too.

With that said, I think it's appropriate to thank a few people. Number one on that list has to be Joe Dimino, who awakened my semi-dormant love of baseball back in 2002 with his marvelous idea and for being a good guy. I also thank him for allowing me an important role in the process. It might have been taxing at times, but I don't regret the journey.

Thanks also go to Jim Furtado and Dan Szymborski for allowing us to house the HoM and for their help throughout the years.

My job would have been that much more difficult without the help of Ryan Wagman and yest on the plaques, OCF's and Ron Wargo's tallies, David Foss's cap standings, Dan Greenia's necrologies and Evan Reich's ingenious tally spreadsheet.

Here are some other people, current and long gone, who have made the Hall of Merit what it is today. Each have played no small role in shaping our institution. I probably missed a few and I apologize for that, because they also deserve recognition. In alphabetical order:

Adam Schaefer
AJM
Al Peterson
Andrew M
andrew siegel
Ardo
Bleacher
Brad G.
Brad Harris
Brent
Brian Hodes
Buddha
Carl Goetz
Casey Elston
caspian88
Chocaholic
Chris Cobb
Chris Fluit
Chris Jaffe/Dag Nabbit
Cliff Blau
Clint
ColinM
Craig Burley
Craig K
dan b
Dan Moore
Dan Passner
Dan Rosenheck
Daryn
Dave Roberts :-)
David C. Jones
Dean Carrano
Devin McCullen
Dick Thompson :-)
DL from MN
Don F
Dr. Feelgood
Ed/The Good Samaritan
Eric Chalek
Eric Enders
EricC
Esteban Rivera
favre
fra paolo
Gadfly
Gary Ashwill
got melky?
Guapo
Harold Thurmer :-)
Howie Menckel
James Newburg
Jason Koral
Jeff McFarland
jhwinfrey
Jim Sp
jimd
John C
jonesy
JP Caillault
Juan V
Justin B
karlmagnus
Kelly/mulder and scully
Ken Fischer
Kenn
KJOK
kwarren
Lennox HC
Marc/sunnyday2
Mark Donelson
Mark McKinniss/Dolf Lucky
Mark Shirk
Matt/PhillyBooster
MattB
Max Parkinson
mbdlmbdl/Martin
Michael Bass
MichaelD
Mike Emeigh
Mike Webber
NeverJustaGame
Patrick W
Paul Wendt
Phillip
rdfc
redsox 1912
Rick A.
Rick G
rico varian
RMc
Rob Wood
robc
Robert Dudek
Rusty Priske
Satchel
Sean Gilman
Sean M
Seaver1969
Shawn Weaver
Silver King
Stephen
Steve Cameron
SWW
Tanketra
Thane of Bagarath
thebigeasy
Tiboreau
Toby
Tom D
Tom Hanrahan
Trevor P
Vaux
Wallbanger
Yardape
Zapatero
zop
?ïß?rêŵ /The Ersline Thomason of UBW

I have either corresponded with many of them or have met them in person. I thank them for their service, their friendship and for their kind words about my function here.

Lurkers such as David Johnson, jingoist, Andy, Jon Daly and countless others should also be recognized for their encouragement and for adding tidbits and anecdotes to the discussion.

See you guys in a few weeks!
   4. Chris Cobb Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:16 AM (#2633172)
Well, another surprising twist in a late election!

I had started off this cycle saying that I hoped Rick Reuschel would pull a Nettles. Instead, it was Dick Lundy!

I think we did right to put it an "arm" and a "glove" instead of a second bat after Raines, but I feel like we could have used more deliberation this time. Fortunately and unfortunately, we'll have (if not all the time in the world) a lot more time to get ready for the 2009 election.
   5. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:22 AM (#2633178)
And a huge thank you to John Murphy, the glue of the HOM. Without (Not) Grandma there is no HOM, as we all know.

John, your job has at times seemed thankless, but each and every voter thanks you for your absolutely gigantic contribution. If there's a metaHOM, you are a first-ballot, unanimous inductee.

Thank you for everything!
   6. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:28 AM (#2633185)
As perhaps Lundy's most vocal supporter, I'd like to extend a heartfelt thanks to my perennial foil sunnyday2, whose post #140 on the Shortstops thread got the ball rolling for Lundy *just* in time to give the electorate enough time to review his case, as well as to Dr. Chaleeko of course for providing the revised MLE's that confirmed his reputation. Great work, guys.
   7. jimd Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:29 AM (#2633186)
The news is great. But the table looks like @$$.

Yeah.

It looks like what happens when you try to post a table,
but forget (or mess up) all the pre tags.
   8. Paul Wendt Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:33 AM (#2633190)
jtm still at bat :-)

This non-voter thanks you too. Great job well done.

Next time we meet at a SABR convention, or maybe it will be a Jerry Malloy, the first beer is on me.
And the opening theme is the Hall of Merit.
   9. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:34 AM (#2633192)
Man, look at Lundy. Three elections ago, he got ONE vote, for tenth place. He was elected comfortably in this one, 45 points above the #3 finisher and 70 points above the rest of the backlog. That is really remarkable, and is a testament to the diligence, responsiveness, and flexibility of the electorate. There's a Dick pun to be made here, but I can't quite figure it out.
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:39 AM (#2633197)
"Final" unofficial results, well for a year at least.


all-time 'votes points' thru 2008 - those still eligible in 2009 election are in CAPS. electees are not in caps.
It took 'til the last election, but congrats to ol' Ed Williamson for finally overtaking Jimmy Sheckard for the 50th and final slot!

in a way, these are most-oft debated candidates

TOP 10, ALL-TIME
DUFFY...... 26833.5
VAN HALTREN 26653.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
Childs..... 18484
WELCH...... 18328
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
REDDING.... 17538
Jennings... 16976

CJones..... 15875
TLEACH..... 15141
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12612.5
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
Roush...... 12005

Bennett.... 11503
CRAVATH.....11444
WALTERS.....11064
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
DOYLE....... 9671
HStovey......9576
GRIMES.......9269

BJOHNSON.....9085
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
MCGRAW.......7848
Kiner........7746

Suttles......7690
BMONROE......7617
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6721
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424
WILLIAMSON...6421

Others in active top 50
Willis 5746, Dean 5474, Elliott 4898, Joss 4620, Bridges 4586, BTaylor 4264, Rizzuto 3876, TPerez 3867, FChance 3670, CMays 3581, Traynor 3526, NCash 3502, Cepeda 3405, McCormick 3194, SRice 3185, Cicotte 3127, ReSmith 3105, Tiant 3048, Brock 2974, Tiernan 2692X, EHoward 2616, FJones 2606, Klein 2494, Singleton 2463, Stephens 2379, Veach 2367, BoBonds 2362, GJBurns 2338, Mullane 2261, Staub 2248, Lombardi 2129, BClarkson 2127, Dunlap 2084, Bancroft 1959, Poles 1842X
   11. Paul Wendt Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:39 AM (#2633198)
Years ago I thought there might be a lot of movement in the election results in the last few rounds of tri-weeklies, because some people would see that as a finish line and undertake unusually extensive. Someone might zoom from, say, 80th to 20th, or 20th to 8th. Electors, you outdid yourselves.
   12. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:44 AM (#2633203)
Well, my optimum "arm" and "glove" would have been different, but I'm also happy with these choices.

A ton of thanks to John for all the hard work, and putting up with 52 squabbling kids, especially those of us who put off getting our homework done until the last minute. :)

And thanks to Joe for coming up with the idea in the first place.

Same time next year!
   13. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:47 AM (#2633205)
Gah. I was in the wrong thread. Short version - not mu ideal picks, but I'm reasonably happy with them. Thank you John, thank you Joe, thanks to everybody else.

Same time next year!
   14. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:48 AM (#2633206)
I swear I refreshed before I did version 2
   15. rawagman Posted: December 04, 2007 at 05:00 AM (#2633221)
job would have been that much more difficult without the help of Ryan Wagman and yest on the plaques

Any time. If any of you ever get up to Toronto, it would be a pleasure to meet up for a beer or a game, as the season allows. Of those of you who live in Toronto (Max, Daryn, etc...) the invitation is open to you as well. All the best and job well done.
   16. Paul Wendt Posted: December 04, 2007 at 05:01 AM (#2633222)
It took 'til the last election, but congrats to ol' Ed Williamson for finally overtaking Jimmy Sheckard for the 50th and final slot!

Slow and steady finishes 50th?
Everyone who beat him in 1898 is in, so he led the "final backlog" that year.
As Reggie Smith leads in 2008.
And xxx knows how many between.
   17. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 05:27 AM (#2633235)
Hey, I was actually thinking about going up to Toronto next month to watch Rutgers play in the International Bowl. If people would be around (it'd be January 4-5), that would be an excellent bonus.

And it seems like every year around this time the NY-area contingent makes noises about meeting up, but nothing ever comes of it (and I'm as guilty as anybody on that score).
   18. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: December 04, 2007 at 06:09 AM (#2633257)
Marvin Miller, snubbed again.
   19. sunnyday2 Posted: December 04, 2007 at 06:29 AM (#2633290)
Thx, DanR. Lundy had been hovering around #25 off my ballot for many many years. That was all just part of my stubborn contrariness. The knock on Lundy was that he didn't take enough BB, and I always felt that BB are over-rated.

I don't know if I was ever anybody's best friend, really. I supported some of the more fiercely debated 19C guys--Caruthers, Pearce, Pike, Jennings. And there was Dobie Moore. Ask anybody who their best friends were and they probably wouldn't think of me, and perhaps rightfully so. karl and John were huge supporters of some of the 19C guys in particular.

Some guys I'm proud of having supported, however--because they weren't obvious to a lot of voters, they weren't easy--would include (all #s of years are consecutively, I supported many of these guys in other non-consecutive elections as well):

Hughie Jennings--I voted for Hughie 53 years in a row until he was finall elected in 1960
Pete Browning--49 years in a row until elected in 2005
Rube Waddell--49 years through his election in 1986
Tommy Bond--48 years from 1927-1974 and 11 years in a row previous to that, and he was back on again the last decade or so
Addie Joss--45 years; well, okay, I'm not so proud of his; I loved his ERA+ but eventually decided ERA+ is over-rated
George Sisler--44 years through his election in 1979
Dobie Moore--44 years through his election in 1991
Ed Williamson--39 years in a row through 1951, and later another 15 years, and then another 16 years right up to 2008
Mendez--34 years through 1985, but I'll be damned if I can think of his first name any more: Sergio? And his HoM cap says Brasil 66, right?
Larry Doyle--34 right up through 2008
Charley Jones--30 years from 1913-42, and another 16 years leading up to his election

In the 20s (20-29 consecutive years on my ballot)--Bennett 23, Sam Thompson 28, harry Wright 21, Parce 25, Childs 20, Kiner 27, Roush 23 (earlier I had him for 12 consecutive years as well).

10-19 years--McVey 17, Pike 19 and then another 16, Start 13, Jim McCormick 12 (seriously under-rated), Caruthers 15, Suttles 11, W. Brown 19, Joe Gordon 11, Minoso 10, Fox 15, Keller 12, Fingers 10, Newcombe 12, Rizutto 13.

So those were the guys I supported who weren't easy or obvious. I would say my favorite players on this list at least would be Dobie Moore and Ed Williamson. I don't think Dobie would have gotten elected if it hadn't been for me, but who knows. Williamson might have done better if I'd kept my mouth shut ;-)

Goiing into this I never would have imagined voting for Pike, Start, Bennett, Pearce, Keller, Newcombe, Rizzuto. Thanks to those of you who insisted that we needed to learn about those players.
   20. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 04, 2007 at 06:41 AM (#2633308)
John pretty much summed it all up in post #3, there isn't much for me to add, I concur with all he said.

And of course I'd like to thank John once again for all of his hard work. My time to contribute has fluctuated wildly since the first days back in 2001. I'm on my 3rd job since then, I've moved 3 times, bought a house, sold it and then jumped halfway across the country. The Hall of Merit did not miss a beat through all of that, and John Murphy is the main reason why.

The rest of you guys are the other reasons why we didn't miss a beat. Wow, that's a lot of names on John's list! 117 to be exact. I thank each and every one of you for making this such a fun and educational project. I've made a lot of friends through this, and if any of you are ever passing through Champaign, IL, let me know and I'll buy you a beer.

This whole project started because I wasn't sure if my favorite player growing up, Andre Dawson should be in the Hall of Fame. I didn't want to be a homer (pun intended) and just blindly advocate him, I wanted to know whether or not he really belonged after taking out the mistakes was he still good enough?

According to this group he was good enough.

But who would have thunk that one of my other favorite players (there were four), Willie Randolph was also qualified? And he went in before Dawson to boot.

As John said, I expect each of you back for the 2009 election. If you could maintain 25 ballots a year for four years, you can do one ballot a year the rest of the way. That's nothing!

I'd like to start with ranking the HoM not HoF players after the holidays, and I think real life has settled down enough that I can step back into running things day to day and give John a break, as there will be much less to do with that than what we've been doing.

I really haven't thought about how we'll rank them - the "Survivor Island" method has something to be said for it, but I'd like to be finished in time for the 2009 election. Maybe start with ranking them by era? Who knows, lots of ideas. I'll start a thread to discuss them, I don't think this is the best place for that.

Also, I'd like to focus on the "Santo" letters. Would anyone be interested in helping? Need to track down addresses for one, I don't have good sources for things like ex-baseball star addresses :-)

Thanks again everyone - this has been a great ride, and I'm beyond thrilled with the end result.
   21. OCF Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:16 AM (#2633426)
I started voting in 1904. For each year, at what ballot position did I have the elected candidates? Here's the list:

"Elect me" positions:
Glasscock (1904), Radbourn (1905), Hamilton (1907), Delahanty (1909), Nichols (1911), Burkett (1912), Dahlen (1915), Davis (1915), Stovey (1916), Young (1917), Clarke (1917), Kelley (1919), Keeler (1919), Walsh (1920), Bennett (1921), Lajoie (1922), Mathewson (1922), Wagner (1923), Crawford (1923), Plank (1923), G. Johnson (1925), Magee (1926), J. Jackson (1927), Baker (1928), Sheckard (1930), Santop (1932), W. Johnson (1933), Wheat (1933), Cobb (1934), E. Collins (1935), Alexander (1936), J. Williams (1936), Torriente (1937), Heilmann (1937), Coveleski (1938), Faber (1939), Rogan (1940), Ruth (1941), Hornsby (1941), Vance (1942), Charleston (1943), Cochrane (1943), Gehrig (1944), Goslin (1945), Stearnes (1946), Simmons (1946), Grove (1947), Hartnett (1947), Gehringer (1948), J. Wilson (1948), Hubbell (1949), Waner (1950), Dihigo (1950), Foxx (1951), Cronin (1951), J. Gibson (1952), Ott (1952), Greenberg (1953), Dickey (1953), Vaughan (1954), Wells (1954), Leonard (1955), R. Brown (1955), Appling (1956), DiMaggio (1957), Beckwith (1957), Hack (1958), Paige (1959), Mize (1959), Newhouser (1960), J. Robinson (1962), Feller (1962), Campanella (1963), Reese (1964), Doby (1965), Slaughter (1965), Williams (1966), Ruffing (1966), Medwick (1967), Musial (1969), Berra (1969), Snider (1970), Spahn (1971), Roberts (1972), Ford (1973), Mantle (1974), Mathews (1974), Banks (1977), Clemente (1978), Mays (1979), Kaline (1980), Santo (1980), B. Gibson (1981), Killebrew (1981), Aaron (1982), F. Robinson (1982), B. Williams (1983), Allen (1983), Torre (1984), Mendez (1985), McCovey (1986), Pierce (1987), Stargell (1988), Bench (1989), Yastrzemski (1989), Perry (1989), Morgan (1990), Palmer (1990), Jenkins (1990), Carew (1991), Seaver (1992), Carlton (1993), R. Jackson (1993), Niekro (1994), T. Simmons (1994), D. Sutton (1994), Schmidt (1995), Trouppe (1995), Hernandez (1996), J. Wynn (1996), Blyleven (1998), G. Carter (1998), Brett (1999), Yount (1999), Fisk (1999), Ryan (2000), Gossage (2000), Whitaker (2001), Winfield (2001), Smith (2002), Trammell (2002), Stieb (2002), Murray (2003), Sandberg (2003), Molitor (2004), Boggs (2005), W. Clark (2006), Ripken (2007), Gwynn (2007), McGwire (2007), Raines (2008)

#2 (in an elect-1 year): E. Sutton (1908), Galvin (1910), McPhee (1913), Flick (1918)
#3: Wallace (1929), Speaker (1934), Lloyd (1935), Rixie (1968), Bunning (1977), Wilhelm (1977), Grich (1992)
#4: Start (1912), Groh (1938), Frisch (1944), Marichal (1980), Freehan (1985), Rose (1993), Da. Evans (1995), Saberhagen (2008)
#5: Rusie (1904), Lyons (1949), Boudreau (1958)
#6: Richardson (1905), Spalding (1906), 3F Brown (1925), Terry (1942), Wynn (1970)
#7: Grant (1926), McGinnity (1928), Drysdale (1975), B. Robinson (1984), Dw. Evans (1997)
#8: Carey (1939), W. Foster (1945), W. Ferrell (1964)
#9: Averill (1961), Kiner (1987)
#10: McVey (1914), J. Collins (1921), Suttles (1956), Randolph (2001)
#11: Koufax (1972), Mackey (1974), Sewell (1985), Boyer (1991)
#12: Minoso (1987), Eckersley (2004)
#13:
#14: Ashburn (1968), Fingers (2000)
#15: R. Foster (1932), Irvin (1963)

Off-ballot positions:

#17: B. Herman (1958), W. Brown (1976)
#19: Thompson (1929), Bell (1973)
#20: Beckley (1998), Nettles (2006)
#21: Caruthers (1930), Gordon (1976)
#24: Pearce (1931)
#25: Sisler (1979)
#26: Childs (1989
#28: Doerr (1972)
#30: Oms (2006)

Not listed: Pike (1940), Jennings (1960), Griffith (1971), Waddell (1986), Keller (1996), Fox (1997), Roush (1997), Jones (2003), Bresnahan (2004), Browning (2005), Dawson (2006), Lundy (2007).

Waddell did appear on my ballots for 27 years, from 1916 through 1942, peaking at #4 in 1929; however, he had slipped to about #31 or so by the year of his election. Griffith appeared on my ballot from 1924 through 1926, as high as #5. Fox never appeared on my ballot, but he debuted at #17 for me before sliding downward. Roush appeared on my ballot for 11 years, from 1937 through 1947, as high as #8. Jones never appeared on my ballot. Bresnahan appeared on my ballot from 1921 through 1940, getting as high as #4. Browning appeared on my ballot from 1904 though 1916, getting as high as #5. The others never appeared in my top 30.

Everyone that I've ever put into an "elect me" position has eventually been elected, with four exceptions: George Van Haltren, Larry Doyle, Tommy Bridges, and Luis Tiant. And it was only once each with Bridges and Tiant.
   22. OCF Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:17 AM (#2633427)
For 2008, the highest possible consensus score was +1 and the average was -13.0. This time, I'll give you all 50 individual consensus scores.

Devin McCullen: -7
Rusty Priske: -8
Howie Menckel: -8
Jim Sp: -8
DL from MN: -9

Chris Fluit: -9
Mike Webber: -9
Andrew M: -9
Al Peterson: -9
Dan R: -10

favre: -10
zop: -10
andrew siegel: -10
TomH: -10
Sean Gilman: -10

jimd: -10
Kenn: -10
ronw: -11
mulder & scully: -11
Got Melky: -12

rawagman: -12
sunnyday2: -12
dan b: -12
Max Parkinson: -12
Mark Donelson: -12

-- 2008 median --

Joe Dimino: -12
Juan V: -12
John Murphy: -12
Rick A: -13
Rob Wood: -13

Brent: -13
AJM: -13
Eric Chalek: -14
Don F: -14
Chris Cobb: -14

KJOK: -14
OCF: -14
David Foss: -14
Tiboreau: -14
Esteban Rivera: -15

Ken Fischer: -15
SWW: -16
DanG: -16
Tom D: -18
Daryn: -19

rico vanian: -20
Patrick W: -21
EricC: -23
karlmagnus: -27
Adam Schafer: -30
   23. OCF Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:18 AM (#2633428)
88 years of consensus scores: the yearly averages. I probably should make a plot of this, but it's easier to post tables rather than graphics here.

1921 4.8
1922 
+14.9
1923 
+15.8
1924 
+13.2
1925 
5.3
1926 
0.9
1927 
3.3
1928 
4.0
1929 
0.5
1930 
0.4

1931 
3.4
1932 
1.1
1933 
5.2
1934 
+21.9
1935 
+15.8
1936 
+15.3
1937 
4.9
1938 
4.5
1939 
8.5
1940 
7.0

1941 
5.2
1942 
9.0
1943 
9.8
1944 
9.2
1945 
2.7
1946 
6.9
1947 
8.9
1948 
5.5
1949 
1.8
1950 
8.4

1951 
6.5
1952 
+11.6
1953 
8.1
1954 
3.7
1955 
3.9
1956 
0.2
1957 
1.2
1958 
-10.3
1959 
1.0
1960 
9.9

1961 
-13.8
1962 
1.9
1963 
4.6
1964 
-12.2
1965 
-10.9
1966 
6.4
1967 
-15.0
1968 
-15.4
1969 
1.9
1970 
7.6

1971 
7.8
1972 
6.7
1973 
-10.2
1974 
1.8
1975 
-13.2
1976 
-14.5
1977 
7.3
1978 
3.8
1979 
7.3
1980 
0.5

1981 
1.1
1982 
3.1
1983 
5.5
1984 
-10.4
1985 
-15.0
1986 
7.9
1987 
-16.3
1988 
-11.9
1989 
+10.4
1990 
4.3

1991 
9.4
1992 
3.2
1993 
+11.4
1994 
2.9
1995 
9.6
1996 
-19.0
1997 
-20.4
1998 
4.4
1999 
9.6
2000 
7.7

2001 
8.2
2002 
8.7
2003 
5.7
2004 
8.8
2005 
-13.1
2006 
-18.0
2007 
2.9
2008 
-13.0 
   24. sunnyday2 Posted: December 04, 2007 at 02:16 PM (#2633516)
I was a little more eclectic than Howie. My "elect-me" votes who never got elected include:

Harry Wright (as high as #2), Tommy Bond (2), Ed Williamson (2), Elston Howard (3), Kirby Puckett (1), Don Mattingly (3), Dizzy Dean (1).
   25. Kenn Posted: December 04, 2007 at 02:38 PM (#2633522)
Fun results. I also I want to throw out a thanks to Joe and John and all the rest who made this possible. It's been a great project, and I look forward to the next one.
   26. Dolf Lucky Posted: December 04, 2007 at 02:53 PM (#2633532)
Congrats, gang. I was always a bit sorry that I couldn't stick around long enough to vote on the players that I had actually seen play, but the project was always in capable hands.

P.S. Ernie Lombardi got the shaft.
   27. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:12 PM (#2633664)
I killed some time last week finding this stuff out. Here's the highest ranked eligible players who were not chosen for the Hall of Merit in a bunch of statistical categories, for both career and single-season (where that would be interesting). The rankings are among all players, however. (All courtesy of baseball-reference, natch.)

BA: Lefty O'Doul, .349 (4th)/Hugh Duffy, 1894 .440 (1st)
OBP: John McGraw, .466 (3rd)/John McGraw, 1899, .548 (4th)
SLG: Hack Wilson, .549 (32nd)/Hack Wilson, 1930, .723 (22nd)
OPS: Lefty O'Doul, .945 (27th)/Hugh Duffy, 1894, 1.196 (22nd)
Games: Rusty Staub, 2951 (12th)
AB: Lou Brock, 10332 (18th)
PA: Rabbit Maranville, 11256 (27th)
Runs: Jimmy Ryan, 1642 (32nd)/Tom Brown, 1891, 177 (2nd)
Hits: Lou Brock, 3023 (23rd)/Lefty O'Doul, 1929, 254 (3rd)
TB: Harold Baines, 4604 (32nd)/Chuck Klein, 1930, 445 (4th)
2B: Al Oliver, 529 (30th)/Earl Webb, 1931, 67 (1st)
3B: Sam Rice, 184 (14th)/Chief Wilson, 1932, 36 (1st)
HR: Jose Canseco, 462 (31st)/Roger Maris, 1961, 61 (7th)
RBI: Tony Perez, 1652 (24th)/Hack Wilson, 1930, 191 (7th)
BB: Eddie Yost, 1614 (10th)/Eddie Yost, 1956, 151 (9th)
Strikeouts: Jose Canseco, 1942 (5th)
Stolen Bases: Lou Brock, 938 (2nd)/Hugh Nicol, 1887, 138 (1st)
Singles: Sam Rice, 2271 (14th)/Lloyd Waner, 1927, 198 (4th)
OPS+: Dave Orr, 161 (14th)/Fred Dunlap, 1884, 258 (4th)
Runs Created: Harold Baines, 1606 (57th)/Chuck Klein, 1930, 193 (12th)
Adj. Batting Runs: Bob Johnson, 392 (71st)/Norm Cash, 1961, 85 (35th)
Batting Wins: Jack Clark, 39 (72nd)/Fred Dunlap, 1884, 8.5 (23rd)
XBH: Tony Perez, 963 (35th)/Chuck Klein, 1930, 107 (3rd)
Times On Base: Rusty Staub, 4050 (37th)/Lefty O'Doul, 1929, 334 (16th)
Off. Win%: Dave Orr, .764 (18th)/Fred Dunlap, 1884, .919 (5th)
HBP: Tommy Tucker, 272 (3rd)
Sac. Hits: Jake Daubert, 392 (2nd)
Sac. Flies: Rusty Staub, 119 (8th)
IBB: Rusty Staub, 193 (13th)/Kevin Mitchell, 1989, 32 (16th)
GIDP: Jim Rice, 315 (6th)
Caught Stealing: Lou Brock, 307 (2nd)
Power/Speed Number: Bobby Bonds, 386.01 (4th)/Eric Davis, 1987, 42.53 (3rd)
AB/K: Lloyd Waner, 44.92 (2nd)
AB/HR: Dave Kingman, 15.1 (14th)
Outs: Luis Aparicio, 8110 (11th)
   28. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:31 PM (#2633700)
Now the pitching stuff. For some of them I'll give the overall leader and the post-1900 leader, which usually means Tommy John. And I'll skip a lot of the single-season because they're not that interesting. And a lot of the answers are Jack Chesbro, 1904.

ERA: Addie Joss, 1.89 (2nd)/Dutch Leonard, 1914, 0.96 (2nd)
Wins: Mickey Welch, 307 (20th), Tommy John, 288 (25th)
W/L%: Spud Chandler, .717 (2nd)
WHIP: Addie Joss, .968 (1st)
H/9IP: Sid Fernandez, 6.85 (3rd)/Luis Tiant, 1968, 5.13 (2nd)
BB/9IP: Candy Cummings, .49 (2nd), Deacon Phillippe, 1.25 (16th)
K/9IP: Sam McDowell, 8.86 (8th)/Dwight Gooden, 1984, 11.39 (12th)
Games: Kent Tekulve, 1050 (7th)/Mike Marhsall, 1974, 106 (1st)
Saves: Lee Smith, 478 (2nd)/Bobby Thigpen, 1990, 57 (1st)
Innings: Bobby Mathews, 4956 (14th), Tommy John, 4710 (20th)
Strikeouts: Mickey Lolich, 2832 (18th)/(Post-1900) Sam McDowell, 1965, 325 (36th)
Games Started: Tommy John, 700 (8th)
Complete Games: Bobby Mathews & Mickey Welch, 525 (6th), Vic Willis, 388 (19th)
Shutouts: Vic Willis, 50 (19th)
HR Allowed: Frank Tanana, 448 (15th)
BB Allowed: Bobo Newsom, 1732 (6th)
Hits Allowed: Bobby Mathews, 5591 (3rd), Tommy John, 4783 (10th)
SO/Walk Ratio: Tommy Bond, 4.44 (1st)/Jim Whitney, 1884, 10.0 (2nd)
(I didn't give a post-1900 because the #1 single season is Bret Saberhagen, 1994, 11.0)
Losses: Jack Powell, 254 (8th)
Earned Runs Allowed: Gus Weyhing, 1867 (6th), Tommy John, 1749 (14th)
Wild Pitches: Mickey Welch, 274 (2nd), Jack Morris, 206 (8th)
Hit Batsmen: Chick Fraser, 177 (5th)
Batters Faced: Tommy John, 19692 (15th)
Games Finished: Lee Smith, 802 (1st)/Mike Marshall, 1979, 84 (1st)
Adjusted ERA+: Dan Quisenberry & Joe Wood, 146 (4th)/Dutch Leonard, 1914, 279 (3rd)
   29. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:44 PM (#2633725)
And some oddball stuff.

Years on All-Star Roster: Luis Aparicio, Steve Garvey, George Kell, Kirby Puckett, Red Scheodienst (10)
MVP Award Shares: Dave Parker, 3.19 (28th)
Cy Award Shares: Catfish Hunter, 2.02 (12th)

HOF Monitor: Chuck Klein, 193 (43rd)
Pitchers: Mickey Welch, 141 (21st)
Post-1900: Lee Smith, 73 (52nd)

HOF Standards: Hugh Duffy, 54 (52nd)
Pitchers: Mickey Welch, 58 (19th)
Post-1900: Chief Bender, 51 (37th)

Black Ink: Chuck Klein, 60 (16th)
Pitching: Bucky Walters, 48 (26th)

Gray Ink: Orlando Cepeda, 196 (42nd)
Pitching: Bobby Mathews, 274 (14th)
Post-1900: Burleigh Grimes, 213 (32nd)

And these are guesses, assuming that nobody who's not in my database would be ahead of them, but that may not be true, especially for WARP

Win Shares: Tony Mullane, 399
Non-Pitcher: Rusty Staub, 358

WARP1: Rabbit Maranville, 133.5
Pitcher: Frank Tanana, 112.5

WARP3: Frank Tanana, 111.3
Non-Pitcher: Dave Concepcion, 109.7
   30. ronw Posted: December 04, 2007 at 04:49 PM (#2633744)
And a lot of the answers are Jack Chesbro, 1904.

Hall of Famer Happy Jack Chesbro says for the last time:

I heard my name. Did I win?
   31. Paul Wendt Posted: December 04, 2007 at 05:08 PM (#2633786)
OCF wrote (Marc, not Howie but OCF)
Everyone that I've ever put into an "elect me" position has eventually been elected, with four exceptions: George Van Haltren, Larry Doyle, Tommy Bridges, and Luis Tiant. And it was only once each with Bridges and Tiant.

Imagine that someone voted for Charley Jones, Pete Browning, and Dick Lundy throughout. That someone would be widely scorned, would have a short list of electmes, and would now feel I don't know what.

In the list of overall consensus measures by election (#88), visit 1934 and look backward. See the Greenia trough?
(Probably that someone was expelled in 1934.)

--
Speaking of the d, he wrote in the Ballot thread yesterday:
97. DanG Posted: December 03, 2007 at 11:59 AM (#2632248)
My “system”? Totally revamped for this year, something I've considered doing for some time. When separating the mass below Raines, the prime query is, Which omissions will most strain the HoM’s credibility among Joe Fan? The corollary is then, Whose inclusion would be most confounding to Joe Fan? Merit is defined less by statistical analysis and more by a consensus of recognized opinions.

I think Dizzy Dean wins the corollary.
   32. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 05:35 PM (#2633829)
I think the omissions that will leap out at people are Dean, Brock and Puckett. I think Dizzy belongs in the Hall of Fame because he does occupy a big space in the history of the game (granted, due to his self-promoting abilities) even if he comes up a little bit short on the Merit. Brock has the 3,000 hits and stolen base records, and you have to explain to people why those aren't as valuable as they look. Puckett was very likeable, won 2 World Series that nobody expected, had some very good years, and got in on the first ballot. Everyone just seemed to assume he's a Hall of Famer.
   33. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 06:57 PM (#2634025)
One more bit of fun. The last version of my PHoM-not-HoM and HoM-not-PHoM lineups. Hey, the HoM's finally have a third baseman!

PHoM-not-HoM
1. Phil Rizzuto, SS
2. Bus Clarkson, 3B
3. Norm Cash, 1B
4. Gavvy Cravath, DH
5. Reggie Smith, RF
6. Bob Johnson, LF
7. George Van Haltren, CF
8. Elston Howard, C
9. Bill Monroe, 2B

SP: Dick Redding
RP: Luis Tiant

UT: Tommy Leach
PH: Bobby Bonds

HoM-not-PHoM
1. Richie Ashburn, CF
2. George Sisler, 1B
3. Charley Jones, LF
4. Sam Thompson, DH
5. Hughie Jennings, SS
6. Andre Dawson, RF
7. Graig Nettles, 3B
8. Roger Bresnahan, C
9. Nellie Fox, 2B

SP: Rube Foster
RP: Rollie Fingers

UT: Pete Browning?
PH: Ralph Kiner

I went with Thompson over Kiner to get another lefty bat in there. The HoMers would probably do a lot of work in spring training to find the best defensive outfield.
   34. sunnyday2 Posted: December 04, 2007 at 07:41 PM (#2634115)
Sorry Devin, I think the HoMers beat the PHoMers. Big edge at SS and then a few smaller advantages.
   35. Lemon Curry? Posted: December 04, 2007 at 07:43 PM (#2634121)
Well, gentlemen: it's been one hell of a ride. I have never voted myself, but I've been lurking in the corridors of the Hall of Merit since the "year" 1901, and I have learned a lot about the ballplayers of the past just by reading your discussions. Three cheers for the HoM and its voters.

My occational contribution to this project has been the list of HOMers sorted by the percentage of available points in their year of election. And now that we've caught up with the present time, maybe it's time to bring this list back to life? For the record, this list is not intended as any attempt to rank the HoMers; it merely shows each HoMer's electoral support in his year of election. So take it for what it's worth.

Players in bold were elected in their first year of eligibility.


THE BEST, JERRY! THE BEST!

100.0 - Cy Young (1917)
100.0 - Honus Wagner (1923)
100.0 - Walter Johnson (1933)
100.0 - Babe Ruth (1941)
100.0 - Lou Gehrig (1944)
100.0 - Lefty Grove (1947)
100.0 - Joe DiMaggio (1957)
100.0 - Ted Williams (1966)
100.0 - Stan Musial (1969)
100.0 - Mickey Mantle (1974)
100.0 - Willie Mays (1979)
100.0 - Hank Aaron (1982)
100.0 - Mike Schmidt (1995)
100.0 - Wade Boggs (2005)

MASTERS OF THEIR DOMAIN

99.8 - Sam Crawford (1924)
99.8 - Cal Ripken (2007)
99.7 - Dan Brouthers (1902)
99.5 - Jimmie Foxx (1951)
99.5 - Warren Spahn (1971)
99.4 - Pete Alexander (1936)
99.4 - Josh Gibson (1952)
99.4 - Joe Morgan (1990)
99.4 - Tom Seaver (1992)
99.3 - Ty Cobb (1934)
99.2 - Oscar Charleston (1943)
99.2 - Rod Carew (1991)
99.2 - George Brett (1999)
98.9 - Kid Nichols (1911)
98.8 - Nap Lajoie (1922)
98.7 - Bob Gibson (1981)
98.5 - Phil Niekro (1994)
98.4 - Ed Delahanty (1909)
98.4 - Arky Vaughan (1954)
98.3 - Roy Campanella (1963)
98.3 - Johnny Bench (1989)
97.9 - Charlie Gehringer (1948)
97.9 - Bob Feller (1962)
97.8 - Eddie Collins (1935)
97.7 - Tim Raines (2008)
97.5 - Eddie Murray (2003)
97.2 - Gary Carter (1998)
96.9 - Turkey Stearnes (1946)
96.6 - Satchel Paige (1959)
96.5 - Christy Mathewson (1922)
96.3 - Willie McCovey (1986)
96.3 - Nolan Ryan (2000)
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby (1941)
95.8 - Frank Robinson (1982)
95.7 - George Davis (1915)
95.7 - Carl Hubbell (1949)
95.4 - Eddie Mathews (1974)
95.3 - Paul Waner (1950)
95.3 - Mel Ott (1952)
95.1 - Carl Yastrzemski (1989)

GIDDYUP!

94.9 - Jesse Burkett (1912)
94.8 - Smokey Joe Williams (1936)
94.8 - Johnny Mize (1959)
94.7 - Robin Roberts (1972)
94.7 - Ernie Banks (1977)
94.7 - Tony Gwynn (2007)
94.6 - Duke Snider (1970)
94.5 - Yogi Berra (1969)
94.4 - Deacon White (1898)
94.4 - Dave Winfield (2001)
94.4 - Paul Molitor (2004)
94.0 - Paul Hines (1898)
94.0 - Jim O'Rourke (1899)
94.0 - Jackie Robinson (1962)
93.7 - Al Simmons (1946)
93.4 - Bert Blyleven (1998)
93.2 - Roger Connor (1903)
93.1 - Roberto Clemente (1978)
92.3 - Pete Rose (1993)
92.1 - Gabby Hartnett (1947)
92.0 - Louis Santop (1932)
91.9 - Pop Lloyd (1935)
91.9 - Al Kaline (1980)
91.9 - Steve Carlton (1993)
91.7 - Luke Appling (1956)
91.5 - Bill Dickey (1953)
90.7 - Robin Yount (1999)
90.6 - Harry Heilmann (1937)
90.5 - Carlton Fisk (1999)
90.3 - Buck Leonard (1955)
90.3 - Ryne Sandberg (2003)
90.0 - John Clarkson (1900)
89.7 - Reggie Jackson (1993)
89.5 - Jim Palmer (1990)
89.1 - Billy Hamilton (1907)
89.1 - Hank Greenberg (1953)
88.9 - Bill Dahlen (1915)
88.3 - Mickey Cochrane (1943)
88.2 - Cristobal Torriente (1937)
87.7 - Ron Santo (1980)
87.7 - Harmon Killebrew (1981)
87.2 - Joe Cronin (1951)
86.7 - Frankie Frisch (1944)
86.2 - Gaylord Perry* (1989)
86.0 - Alan Trammell (2002)
85.9 - Mark McGwire* (2007)
85.2 - Cap Anson* (1903)
85.2 - Fred Clarke (1917)

* Six voters boycotted Anson; two voters boycotted Perry and McGwire.

OF COURSE, IT'S A SLIDING SCALE...

84.9 - Ozzie Smith (2002)
84.3 - Willie Stargell (1988)
84.0 - King Kelly (1899)
83.5 - Ray Brown (1955)
83.0 - Fergie Jenkins (1990)
82.9 - Martin Dihigo (1950)
82.6 - Frank Baker (1928)
82.4 - Jack Glasscock (1904)
82.2 - Eddie Plank (1924)
82.0 - Tris Speaker (1934)
81.5 - Goose Goslin (1945)
81.5 - Ted Simmons (1994)
79.9 - Bullet Rogan (1940)
79.5 - George Gore (1898)
79.1 - Whitey Ford (1973)
78.6 - Hal Newhouser (1960)
78.4 - Willie Wells (1954)
78.2 - Tim Keefe (1901)
77.5 - Lou Whitaker (2001)
77.0 - Dennis Eckersley (2004)
76.9 - Zack Wheat (1933)
76.6 - Jud Wilson (1948)
76.2 - George Wright (1901)
75.5 - Will Clark (2006)
75.6 - Ezra Sutton (1908)
75.5 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1978)
74.7 - Buck Ewing (1902)
74.7 - Rich Gossage (2000)
74.5 - Bid McPhee (1913)
74.4 - Ed Walsh (1920)
74.4 - Joe Jackson (1927)
73.9 - Pud Galvin (1910)
73.5 - John Ward (1900)
73.5 - Cal McVey (1914)
73.4 - Al Spalding (1906)
73.3 - Willie Keeler (1919)
72.5 - Joe Start (1912)
71.7 - Charley Radbourn (1905)
71.3 - Pee Wee Reese (1964)
70.7 - Jimmy Collins (1921)

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT I THINK I SEE... A HoMER

69.8 - Amos Rusie (1904)
69.2 - Elmer Flick (1918)
68.9 - Dick Allen (1983)
68.4 - Ross Barnes (1898)
68.3 - Juan Marichal (1980)
68.1 - Joe Kelley (1919)
68.0 - Brooks Robinson (1984)
67.3 - Mule Suttles (1956)
67.1 - Hardy Richardson (1905)
67.1 - Grant Johnson (1925)
66.8 - Mordecai Brown (1925)
66.8 - Ted Lyons (1949)
65.8 - Billy Williams (1983)
65.2 - Bobby Grich (1992)
65.0 - Bill Foster (1945)
64.9 - Heinie Groh (1938)
63.2 - Harry Stovey (1916)
62.4 - Stan Coveleski (1938)
62.1 - Larry Doby (1965)
61.6 - Jimmy Sheckard (1930)
61.3 - Frank Grant (1926)
61.3 - Monte Irvin (1963)
61.0 - Bobby Wallace (1929)
60.9 - Charlie Bennett (1921)
60.9 - Enos Slaughter (1965)
60.7 - Joe McGinnity (1928)
60.2 - Sherry Magee (1926)
60.0 - Pete Hill (1927)
59.9 - Billy Herman (1958)
59.9 - Joe Torre (1984)
58.0 - John Beckwith (1957)
56.6 - Bob Caruthers (1930)
56.5 - Dazzy Vance (1942)
54.9 - Don Drysdale (1975)
54.6 - Sam Thompson (1929)
54.3 - Sandy Koufax (1972)
53.0 - Dickey Pearce (1931)

I'M KEITH HERNANDEZ!

49.8 - Keith Hernandez (1996)

IS IT POSSIBLE I'M NOT AS ATTRACTIVE AS I THINK I AM?

49.1 - Early Wynn (1970)
49.0 - Don Sutton (1994)
48.6 - Rube Foster (1932)
48.6 - Stan Hack (1958)
48.5 - Lou Boudreau (1958)
47.0 - José Méndez (1985)
46.3 - Red Faber (1939)
45.6 - Max Carey (1939)
44.9 - Bill Terry (1942)
44.7 - Joe Medwick (1967)
43.6 - Darrell Evans (1995)
43.0 - Bill Freehan (1985)
42.6 - Dwight Evans (1997)
41.8 - Joe Gordon (1976)
41.5 - Bob Lemon (1967)
41.3 - Wes Ferrell (1964)
40.5 - Lip Pike (1940)
40.4 - Earl Averill (1961)
39.4 - Ralph Kiner (1987)
39.1 - Billy Pierce (1987)
38.8 - Red Ruffing (1966)
38.7 - Eppa Rixey (1968)
38.2 - George Sisler (1979)
38.1 - Richie Ashburn (1968)
38.1 - Rube Waddell (1986)
37.9 - Willard Brown (1976)
37.7 - Hughie Jennings (1960)
37.7 - Jim Bunning (1977)
36.8 - Cool Papa Bell (1973)
36.2 - Quincy Trouppe (1995)
35.5 - Cupid Childs (1988)
35.4 - Biz Mackey (1975)
35.1 - Ken Boyer (1991)
34.8 - Joe Sewell (1985)
34.7 - Minnie Minoso (1987)
34.2 - Charlie Keller (1996)
32.8 - Clark Griffith (1971)
32.8 - Bobby Doerr (1972)
32.4 - Dick Lundy (2008)
31.7 - Jimmy Wynn (1996)
30.3 - Nellie Fox (1997)

NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT

29.9 - Dobie Moore (1991)
29.1 - Edd Roush (1997)
29.0 - Roger Bresnahan (2004)
28.7 - Bret Saberhagen (2008)
28.2 - Willie Randolph (2001)
28.1 - Pete Browning (2005)
26.7 - Dave Stieb (2002)
26.2 - Rollie Fingers (2000)
25.3 - Alejandro Oms (2006)
25.2 - Andre Dawson (2005)
25.1 - Graig Nettles (2006)
25.0 - Jake Beckley (1998)
24.9 - Charley Jones (2003)
   36. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 04, 2007 at 07:57 PM (#2634147)
Sorry Devin, I think the HoMers beat the PHoMers. Big edge at SS and then a few smaller advantages.

Well, if you guys agreed with me, they wouldn't be PHoMers, would they? :)

Anyway, I just found it interesting how closely matched they were in terms of positions (although you can see an obvious difference in the types of outfielders I prefer). No wonder I had the high consensus score.
   37. sunnyday2 Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:03 PM (#2634162)
Great work, Lemon.

Hard to believe there are 13 players below Nellie Fox! Hard to believe there are only 14 below Jimmy Wynn and Dick Lundy.

95+--I am flabbergasted that Phil Niekro and Nolan Ryan are way up there in that group, though that could be a function of a weak cohort.

90+--Dave Winfield beats Clemente, Jackie, Kaline and about 10 other guys whose jockstraps he couldn't carry. Again, a function of a weak cohort?

70+--12 of the first 18 players at the bottom of the list are 19C. Concidence?

50+--Sandy Koufax at 54ish? You guys are crazy.

30+--Was everybody aware that Darrell and Dwight are two different guys?

<30--not a good group, but somebody hadda be on the bottom. Actually the top 3 are good picks, and the pitchers, but the rest of the position players not so much.

Fun list.

We could just dispense with the ranking and just rank them according to this.:

Deacon White
Paul Hines
Pete Rose
Billl Dahlen
Ron Santo
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
George Gore
Lou Whitaker
Will Clark
Ezra Sutton
Joe Jackson
Goose Gossage
Cal McVey
Joe Start

This probably over-states the 19C guys who ran against a weak backlog and probably ran 10-20 points higher, a la your average relief pitcher. If you wanna correct for that then maybe Dick Allen, HR Johnson and Bobby Grich move up.
   38. sunnyday2 Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:10 PM (#2634178)
Well, if you guys agreed with me, they wouldn't be PHoMers, would they? :)


That is true.

Here's mine. Rip away.

1. Johnny Pesky, SS
2. Kirby Puckett, CF
3. Al Rosen, DH
4. Orlando Cepeda, 1B
5. Gavy Cravath, RF
6. Frank Howard, LF
7. Larry Doyle, 2B
8. Elston Howard, C
9. Ed Williamson, 3B

Dizzy Dean, SP
Don Newcombe, P

Tommy Leach, UT
Reggie Smith, PH
   39. DanG Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:21 PM (#2634200)
Non-HOFers in BOLD

100.0 - Cy Young (1917)
100.0 - Honus Wagner (1923)
100.0 - Walter Johnson (1933)
100.0 - Babe Ruth (1941)
100.0 - Lou Gehrig (1944)
100.0 - Lefty Grove (1947)
100.0 - Joe DiMaggio (1957)
100.0 - Ted Williams (1966)
100.0 - Stan Musial (1969)
100.0 - Mickey Mantle (1974)
100.0 - Willie Mays (1979)
100.0 - Hank Aaron (1982)
100.0 - Mike Schmidt (1995)
100.0 - Wade Boggs (2005)
99.8 - Sam Crawford (1924)
99.8 - Cal Ripken (2007)
99.7 - Dan Brouthers (1902)
99.5 - Jimmie Foxx (1951)
99.5 - Warren Spahn (1971)
99.4 - Pete Alexander (1936)
99.4 - Josh Gibson (1952)
99.4 - Joe Morgan (1990)
99.4 - Tom Seaver (1992)
99.3 - Ty Cobb (1934)
99.2 - Oscar Charleston (1943)
99.2 - Rod Carew (1991)
99.2 - George Brett (1999)
98.9 - Kid Nichols (1911)
98.8 - Nap Lajoie (1922)
98.7 - Bob Gibson (1981)
98.5 - Phil Niekro (1994)
98.4 - Ed Delahanty (1909)
98.4 - Arky Vaughan (1954)
98.3 - Roy Campanella (1963)
98.3 - Johnny Bench (1989)
97.9 - Charlie Gehringer (1948)
97.9 - Bob Feller (1962)
97.8 - Eddie Collins (1935)
97.7 - Tim Raines (2008)
97.5 - Eddie Murray (2003)
97.2 - Gary Carter (1998)
96.9 - Turkey Stearnes (1946)
96.6 - Satchel Paige (1959)
96.5 - Christy Mathewson (1922)
96.3 - Willie McCovey (1986)
96.3 - Nolan Ryan (2000)
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby (1941)
95.8 - Frank Robinson (1982)
95.7 - George Davis (1915)
95.7 - Carl Hubbell (1949)
95.4 - Eddie Mathews (1974)
95.3 - Paul Waner (1950)
95.3 - Mel Ott (1952)
95.1 - Carl Yastrzemski (1989)
94.9 - Jesse Burkett (1912)
94.8 - Smokey Joe Williams (1936)
94.8 - Johnny Mize (1959)
94.7 - Robin Roberts (1972)
94.7 - Ernie Banks (1977)
94.7 - Tony Gwynn (2007)
94.6 - Duke Snider (1970)
94.5 - Yogi Berra (1969)
94.4 - Deacon White (1898)
94.4 - Dave Winfield (2001)
94.4 - Paul Molitor (2004)
94.0 - Paul Hines (1898)
94.0 - Jim O'Rourke (1899)
94.0 - Jackie Robinson (1962)
93.7 - Al Simmons (1946)
93.4 - Bert Blyleven (1998)
93.2 - Roger Connor (1903)
93.1 - Roberto Clemente (1978)
92.3 - Pete Rose (1993)
92.1 - Gabby Hartnett (1947)
92.0 - Louis Santop (1932)
91.9 - Pop Lloyd (1935)
91.9 - Al Kaline (1980)
91.9 - Steve Carlton (1993)
91.7 - Luke Appling (1956)
91.5 - Bill Dickey (1953)
90.7 - Robin Yount (1999)
90.6 - Harry Heilmann (1937)
90.5 - Carlton Fisk (1999)
90.3 - Buck Leonard (1955)
90.3 - Ryne Sandberg (2003)
90.0 - John Clarkson (1900)
89.7 - Reggie Jackson (1993)
89.5 - Jim Palmer (1990)
89.1 - Billy Hamilton (1907)
89.1 - Hank Greenberg (1953)
88.9 - Bill Dahlen (1915)
88.3 - Mickey Cochrane (1943)
88.2 - Cristobal Torriente (1937)
87.7 - Ron Santo (1980)
87.7 - Harmon Killebrew (1981)
87.2 - Joe Cronin (1951)
86.7 - Frankie Frisch (1944)
86.2 - Gaylord Perry* (1989)
86.0 - Alan Trammell (2002)
85.9 - Mark McGwire* (2007)
85.2 - Cap Anson* (1903)
85.2 - Fred Clarke (1917)
84.9 - Ozzie Smith (2002)
84.3 - Willie Stargell (1988)
84.0 - King Kelly (1899)
83.5 - Ray Brown (1955)
83.0 - Fergie Jenkins (1990)
82.9 - Martin Dihigo (1950)
82.6 - Frank Baker (1928)
82.4 - Jack Glasscock (1904)
82.2 - Eddie Plank (1924)
82.0 - Tris Speaker (1934)
81.5 - Goose Goslin (1945)
81.5 - Ted Simmons (1994)
79.9 - Bullet Rogan (1940)
79.5 - George Gore (1898)
79.1 - Whitey Ford (1973)
78.6 - Hal Newhouser (1960)
78.4 - Willie Wells (1954)
78.2 - Tim Keefe (1901)
77.5 - Lou Whitaker (2001)
77.0 - Dennis Eckersley (2004)
76.9 - Zack Wheat (1933)
76.6 - Jud Wilson (1948)
76.2 - George Wright (1901)
75.5 - Will Clark (2006)
75.6 - Ezra Sutton (1908)
75.5 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1978)
74.7 - Buck Ewing (1902)
74.7 - Rich Gossage (2000)
74.5 - Bid McPhee (1913)
74.4 - Ed Walsh (1920)
74.4 - Joe Jackson (1927)
73.9 - Pud Galvin (1910)
73.5 - John Ward (1900)
73.5 - Cal McVey (1914)
73.4 - Al Spalding (1906)
73.3 - Willie Keeler (1919)
72.5 - Joe Start (1912)
71.7 - Charley Radbourn (1905)
71.3 - Pee Wee Reese (1964)
70.7 - Jimmy Collins (1921)
69.8 - Amos Rusie (1904)
69.2 - Elmer Flick (1918)
68.9 - Dick Allen (1983)
68.4 - Ross Barnes (1898)

68.3 - Juan Marichal (1980)
68.1 - Joe Kelley (1919)
68.0 - Brooks Robinson (1984)
67.3 - Mule Suttles (1956)
67.1 - Hardy Richardson (1905)
67.1 - Grant Johnson (1925)

66.8 - Mordecai Brown (1925)
66.8 - Ted Lyons (1949)
65.8 - Billy Williams (1983)
65.2 - Bobby Grich (1992)
65.0 - Bill Foster (1945)
64.9 - Heinie Groh (1938)
63.2 - Harry Stovey (1916)

62.4 - Stan Coveleski (1938)
62.1 - Larry Doby (1965)
61.6 - Jimmy Sheckard (1930)
61.3 - Frank Grant (1926)
61.3 - Monte Irvin (1963)
61.0 - Bobby Wallace (1929)
60.9 - Charlie Bennett (1921)
60.9 - Enos Slaughter (1965)
60.7 - Joe McGinnity (1928)
60.2 - Sherry Magee (1926)
60.0 - Pete Hill (1927)
59.9 - Billy Herman (1958)
59.9 - Joe Torre (1984)
58.0 - John Beckwith (1957)
56.6 - Bob Caruthers (1930)

56.5 - Dazzy Vance (1942)
54.9 - Don Drysdale (1975)
54.6 - Sam Thompson (1929)
54.3 - Sandy Koufax (1972)
53.0 - Dickey Pearce (1931)
49.8 - Keith Hernandez (1996)
49.1 - Early Wynn (1970)
49.0 - Don Sutton (1994)
48.6 - Rube Foster (1932)
48.6 - Stan Hack (1958)
48.5 - Lou Boudreau (1958)
47.0 - José Méndez (1985)
46.3 - Red Faber (1939)
45.6 - Max Carey (1939)
44.9 - Bill Terry (1942)
44.7 - Joe Medwick (1967)
43.6 - Darrell Evans (1995)
43.0 - Bill Freehan (1985)
42.6 - Dwight Evans (1997)
41.8 - Joe Gordon (1976)

41.5 - Bob Lemon (1967)
41.3 - Wes Ferrell (1964)
40.5 - Lip Pike (1940)

40.4 - Earl Averill (1961)
39.4 - Ralph Kiner (1987)
39.1 - Billy Pierce (1987)
38.8 - Red Ruffing (1966)
38.7 - Eppa Rixey (1968)
38.2 - George Sisler (1979)
38.1 - Richie Ashburn (1968)
38.1 - Rube Waddell (1986)
37.9 - Willard Brown (1976)
37.7 - Hughie Jennings (1960)
37.7 - Jim Bunning (1977)
36.8 - Cool Papa Bell (1973)
36.2 - Quincy Trouppe (1995)
35.5 - Cupid Childs (1988)

35.4 - Biz Mackey (1975)
35.1 - Ken Boyer (1991)
34.8 - Joe Sewell (1985)
34.7 - Minnie Minoso (1987)
34.2 - Charlie Keller (1996)

32.8 - Clark Griffith (1971)
32.8 - Bobby Doerr (1972)
32.4 - Dick Lundy (2008)
31.7 - Jimmy Wynn (1996)

30.3 - Nellie Fox (1997)
29.9 - Dobie Moore (1991)
29.1 - Edd Roush (1997)
29.0 - Roger Bresnahan (2004)
28.7 - Bret Saberhagen (2008)
28.2 - Willie Randolph (2001)
28.1 - Pete Browning (2005)
26.7 - Dave Stieb (2002)

26.2 - Rollie Fingers (2000)
25.3 - Alejandro Oms (2006)
25.2 - Andre Dawson (2005)
25.1 - Graig Nettles (2006)

25.0 - Jake Beckley (1998)
24.9 - Charley Jones (2003)
   40. Mike Green Posted: December 04, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2634249)
Congratulations to the participants. Unlike the Hall of Fame, the Hall of Merit has no egregious omissions. From the 20th century, Dahlen, Santo, Blyleven, Grich, and Whitaker are all there, and that is what counts. One can argue the relative merits of Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy and Reggie Smith, for instance, until one is blue in the face, but ultimately it is the decisions on the players the next rung up (and the next rung down) that are more telling.
   41. Chris Fluit Posted: December 05, 2007 at 12:20 AM (#2634562)
thought #1: I'm disappointed (though no longer surprised at this point) that Dick Redding didn't get in, a player that's been at the top or near the top of my ballot since I started voting (apparently) 36 elections ago

thought #2: offsetting that, I'm ecstatic that a different Dick was elected instead. I'm going to wear my Baltimore Black Sox jersey in celebration (and yes, I know that Dick Lundy's cap should be for the Atlantic City Bacharach Giants, but he was also a part of Baltimore's Million Dollar Infield and I don't have a Bacharach jersey).

thought #3: I'm also happy that Saberhagen made it in. That means I had all three inductees on my ballot.
   42. Sean Gilman Posted: December 05, 2007 at 07:13 AM (#2635096)
Shouldn't we have a discussion thread for the 2009 election? We only have 51 weeks left.

Or do we? When is our next election?
   43. DanG Posted: December 05, 2007 at 03:04 PM (#2635254)
When is our next election?

See the thread "Once We Catch-Up", post #156 for the latest plan. Read the next 25 posts or so for debate of adding a runoff election.
   44. DanG Posted: December 05, 2007 at 03:46 PM (#2635310)
Shouldn't we have a discussion thread for the 2009 election?

Yes, we should. Has John gone on sabbatical or is he still at the wheel of this machine?
   45. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 05, 2007 at 04:27 PM (#2635382)
I was thinking we could hold off on that one for a bit, no?
   46. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 05, 2007 at 04:28 PM (#2635385)
If we feel it's a good idea though, I can post it, if someone passes me the information they would normally pass John.
   47. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 05, 2007 at 04:28 PM (#2635386)
Should say everyone, not someone.
   48. DanG Posted: December 05, 2007 at 05:05 PM (#2635433)
The new eligibles list for 2009 is in that thread. Individual players deserving threads would be Henderson, Mark Grace, Jay Bell, Matt Williams and maybe Galarraga, Appier, Orosco and Sasaki; I could see holding off on these. But a general 2009 thread would be good to get going. Necrology has one guy so far, I think.
   49. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 05, 2007 at 05:22 PM (#2635461)
I'll hold off the individual threads for now (they'll just clutter up the main things we are discussing).

I'll post a 2009 discussion thread later today.
   50. sunnyday2 Posted: October 24, 2008 at 06:44 PM (#2994106)
bump
   51. OCF Posted: October 24, 2008 at 07:00 PM (#2994122)
Individual players deserving threads would be Henderson, Mark Grace, Jay Bell, Matt Williams and maybe Galarraga, Appier, Orosco and Sasaki; I could see holding off on these.

I'll hold off the individual threads for now (they'll just clutter up the main things we are discussing).

They wouldn't be clutter any more. The time has come. There definitely should be an Appier thread; I'd say no need for Sasaki (he has < 700 IP when you add NPB to MLB.)
   52. Juan V Posted: October 24, 2008 at 07:14 PM (#2994129)
So, thread-worthy players: Rickey, Appier, Grace... perhaps Jay Bell?
   53. sunnyday2 Posted: November 24, 2008 at 09:43 PM (#3015067)
bump
   54. Howie Menckel Posted: November 25, 2008 at 01:55 AM (#3015229)
A fun read a year later

captures the project nicely, in every way

:)

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