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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, December 21, 2008

2009 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end next Sunday (8 PM EST). Results will be posted at the same time.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.+
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

The eligible candidates are: Harold Baines, Jay Bell*, Bert Blyleven, David Cone*, Andre Dawson, Ron Gant*, Mark Grace*, Rickey Henderson*, Tommy John**, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Jesse Orosco*, Dave Parker, Dan Plesac*, Tim Raines, Jim Rice**, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Greg Vaughn*, Mo Vaughn* and Matt Williams*.

+ Write-ins are allowed, but won’t be included with the official tally.

* 1st-year candidates.

** Last year of eligibility.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2008 at 02:18 PM | 133 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#3035163)
Here's my official ballot (in alphabetical order):

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   2. sunnyday2 Posted: December 21, 2008 at 03:31 PM (#3035173)
It's really great to be voting again!

1. Rickey

2. Raines
3. McGwire
4. Blyleven

5. Trammell
6. Mattingly

7. Murphy
8. Dawson
9. Rice
10. Parker

I would ALWAYS vote for 10 on this ballot because there are always at least 10 who are as good as approx. 2/3 of the existing HoF. IOW even Rice and Parker would be better than about 1/3 of the corner OF. The double standard that post-expansion players are held to is a blot on the HoF. As much as I like Joe Gordon, the idea that he would go in--representing a generation that is already grossly over-represented--and not a single post-expansion player has been voted in (by the Veterans Committee) in, what, 50 years? It is just freakin' outrageous is what it is.
   3. John DiFool2 Posted: December 21, 2008 at 03:40 PM (#3035177)
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
Lee Smith
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2008 at 03:54 PM (#3035182)
alphabetically:
Bert Blyleven
Ricky Henderson
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   5. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 21, 2008 at 04:09 PM (#3035195)
Well. not too many post-expansion players were eligible for VC consideration in 1965... it's really more like 20-25 years. Not that that's any better.

Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Lee Smith

Smith is the only one I'm not sure on... glancing over his record compared to the other Hall relievers, he wouldn't be an unreasonable pick. I suppose it depends on whether you consider relievers separately from other pitchers.
   6. Fridas Boss Posted: December 21, 2008 at 04:13 PM (#3035197)
My ballot:

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

I love this BTF tradition, thanks for running it.
   7. Mr. Robinson Cancel's Quango Posted: December 21, 2008 at 04:18 PM (#3035198)
Blyleven
Henderson
John
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   8. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 21, 2008 at 04:21 PM (#3035201)
Blyleven
Dawson
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   9. The District Attorney Posted: December 21, 2008 at 04:22 PM (#3035202)
1. Rickey Henderson
2. Tim Raines
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Andre Dawson
6. Dale Murphy
7. Lee Smith
8. Tommy John
   10. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 21, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#3035208)
Henderson
Raines
McGwire
Blyleven
Trammell
   11. OCF Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:01 PM (#3035216)
In alphabetical order:

Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell

There are several others whom I would vote for if they hadn't fallen to the 5% rule.
   12. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:15 PM (#3035219)
This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.


With that in mind,

1. Henderson
(gap)
2. Raines
(gap)
3. Blyleven
4. Trammell

and a write-in for Whitaker and Grich. Both would be in the grouping with Blyleven and Trammell.
   13. Blackadder Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#3035223)
I didn't manage to get my act together to put together a HOM ballot, but since this is only the HOF and ballot standards are much lower I'll vote here :-)

Rickey Henderson
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire

David Cone and Andre Dawson are close, but I'm not voting for them.
   14. CrosbyBird Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:32 PM (#3035229)
My ballot.

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   15. karlmagnus Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:38 PM (#3035231)
Copying from discussion -- SO idle!

Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Tommy John
Alan Trammell
David Cone

several others not on the list that I'd want, starting with Parisian Bob Caruthers, and only two of these -- Rickey and Blyleven --do I think it an outrage if they don't make it. Couldn't see a 10th I wanted.
   16. JJ1986 Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:40 PM (#3035233)
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

and a write-in vote for Lou Whitaker.
   17. Mike Webber Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:49 PM (#3035235)
1. Bert Blyleven
2. David Cone*
3. Andre Dawson
4. Rickey Henderson*
5. Tommy John**
6. Mark McGwire
7. Jack Morris
8. Tim Raines
9. Alan Trammell
10. Dave Parker

I'm a big hall guy - I figure that gives us a better chance to clear out the backlog in the HOM :)
   18. plink Posted: December 21, 2008 at 05:58 PM (#3035241)
As usual,

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

And a couple sad shakes of the head in honor of all of the 2B/SS/3B who deserve more recognition.

Really want to vote for Rice (favorite player as a kid), but it's just not there.
   19. RJ in TO Posted: December 21, 2008 at 06:18 PM (#3035256)
Alphabetically:

Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Rickey! Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   20. Daunte Vicknabbit! Posted: December 21, 2008 at 06:45 PM (#3035273)
No particular order:

Tim Raines
Ricky Henderson
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
   21. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 21, 2008 at 06:47 PM (#3035275)
Henderson
Raines
Lee Smith

No change from prelim, no reason to change.

-- MWE
   22. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2008 at 06:48 PM (#3035276)
I love this BTF tradition, thanks for running it.


My pleasure!
   23. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2008 at 06:55 PM (#3035283)
The double standard that post-expansion players are held to is a blot on the HoF.


They might have to wait longer than they should, but we eventually will get our share. You can bank on it. That doesn't mean that they will pick all of the right ones, of course.
   24. bjhanke Posted: December 21, 2008 at 07:09 PM (#3035298)
Well, whaddaya know. It looks like I'll be close to the consensus this time. In order, my ballot is:

Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

- Brock
   25. Guts Posted: December 21, 2008 at 07:14 PM (#3035303)
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   26. Cacciaguida Posted: December 21, 2008 at 07:19 PM (#3035309)
Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#3035318)
Ironic that the "6th" name in Post 24 is the only one who is NOT in the Hall of Merit.
:)
   28. CCornell Posted: December 21, 2008 at 07:49 PM (#3035325)
No brainers:
1. Blyleven
2. Henderson
3. McGwire
4. Raines
5. Trammell

Plus votes for:
6. Cone
7. Dawson
8. Mattingly
9. Murphy
   29. rawagman Posted: December 21, 2008 at 08:10 PM (#3035333)
I am a big hall guy - more inclusion, more validation of the memories of fans and more validation for the game of baseball as being more than just a game.
In no scientific order:
1) Rickey Henderson
2) Tim Raines
3) Bert Blyleven
4) Alan Trammell
5) Mark McGwire
6) Dale Murphy
7) Jim Rice
8) David Cone
9) Andre Dawson
10) Lee Smith

I wasn't going to vote for Smith, but then revisited my rankings for the HOM project and noted that Smith was above where I ranked both Bruce Sutter (by a little) and Rollie Fingers (by a lot). If he is better than half of the relievers already in the Hall, then he should be in - if the Hall has relievers, then Lee Smith is in the top 6 of eligible relievers (I rank them - Wilhelm, Gossage, Quisenberry, L. Smith, Sutter, Fingers).
   30. DCW3 Posted: December 21, 2008 at 08:15 PM (#3035336)
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   31. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2008 at 08:25 PM (#3035344)
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   32. Jeff K. Posted: December 21, 2008 at 08:54 PM (#3035353)
Blyleven
Henderson
Raines
McGwire


----------- Voting line, below just miss----
Trammell
Cone
Dawson
John
----------- Not on the line, not that far off ----
Murphy
Mattingly
Parker
Rice
Baines
----------- Not particularly close ---------
Morris
Grace
Williams
Lee Smith
Orosco
Vaughn^2
----------- Not a chance in hell, in no order ----
Bell
Gant
   33. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 21, 2008 at 09:03 PM (#3035354)
I haven't heard many people make the case for David Cone in the Hall of Fame, but he seems to be seriously considered here. Therefore I will leave him off for now, and wait for the justification from those outraged that he wasn't included, just like real sportswriters do.

My intention was to be biased toward underrepresented teams and underrepresented positions, but there wasn't really a chance to do that anyway. And in fact if I were to fill out the entire 10 names, it would be all the big-hitting positions with no 2B, SS, 3B or C. (unless voting for Jay Bell or Matt Williams seemed like an option)

Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Parker
Raines
Smith, Lee
Trammell
   34. Don Malcolm Posted: December 21, 2008 at 09:19 PM (#3035358)
Aw, let's just dip the whole foot into the water, as opposed to merely the big toe:

Bert Blyleven
Overlooked and overhyped at the same time, but fits in an "inclusive HoF."

Rickey Henderson
If we had tiers, he'd be in the Inner Circle.

Tommy John
Gotta elect him to ensure the efficacy of the "if x then y" argument for Jamie Moyer [insert "joke warning" here]...and besides, y'all should take pity on these guys in their last year of eligibility, given that the VC is, at least for the foreseeable future, the administrative equivalent of the Black Hole of Calcutta. That may be what y'all want to have happen to Jim Rice, but not to Tommy here.

More importantly, however: why isn't Frank Jobe in the HoF??

Mark McGwire
Innocent until proven guilty, even if he acts guilty.

Jesse Orosco
Purely sentimental silliness. If you haven't got one vote of this type on your ballot, you're taking it too seriously...

Tim Raines
Wouldn't it be great if Rickey and Rock were on the dias together this year? Kind of like Santo and Allen, only not quite so controversial...

Jim Rice
Purely tactical. Almost no one concurs with me, but Rice in the HoF has tipping point possibilities. It shows the inherent cultural negativism in the community that this tipping point is seen as inevitably electing worse players rather than creating an opportunity to champion better-but-overlooked players. A careful examination of the HoF voting pattern shows that such a fear is mostly unfounded.

Lee Smith
Mike E. is right on point here.

Alan Trammell
This is irrelevant to the balloting, but one wonders what Trammell's numbers might've looked like had he been moved off SS the way Robin Yount was. SS is the least forgiving position in terms of early/late offensive performance--there are, what, maybe three "late bloomers" at the position in baseball history (Wagner, Cronin, Joost--and Cronin is more of a recovery from a mid-career slump). Up to 29, Trammell is right there with Yount as a hitter (a little more OBP, a little less SLG).

Yount moves to the OF at 29, and wins an MVP award in '89 that's arguably less MVP-worthy than Trammell's performance in '87 (#2 in the balloting that year), and goes on to collect 3000+ hits (and thus becomes a first-ballot HoFer). Trammell misses playing time in his thirties for reasons directly attributable to remaining at SS.
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 21, 2008 at 09:26 PM (#3035359)
Anyone can vote, right?

Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
John
Trammel
   36. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 21, 2008 at 10:37 PM (#3035388)
Rickey
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
McGwire
Cone
Murphy
Smith
Dawson
Parker

I'd vote for John too.
   37. Repoz Posted: December 21, 2008 at 10:43 PM (#3035392)
Henderson
Blyleven
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   38. CraigK Posted: December 21, 2008 at 10:48 PM (#3035393)
Disclaimer: I'm for a big hall. a VERY big hall.

Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   39. LargeBill Posted: December 21, 2008 at 11:24 PM (#3035410)
1. Henderson



2. Blyleven
3. Raines
4. Smith

5. Trammell
6. Murphy


Write-in: Whitaker, Belle
   40. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: December 21, 2008 at 11:27 PM (#3035413)
Can I vote in this even if I've never posted in the HOM, despite reading all the threads over the years?
1. Henderson
2. McGwire
3. Raines
4. Blyleven
5. Trammell
   41. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2008 at 11:33 PM (#3035418)
Can I vote in this even if I've never posted in the HOM, despite reading all the threads over the years?


As long as you follow the rules above (which you have, BTW), anybody can vote here.
   42. Tiboreau Posted: December 21, 2008 at 11:40 PM (#3035422)
Rickey Henderson
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
   43. Dykstra's Chew Posted: December 21, 2008 at 11:52 PM (#3035426)
Small Hall Guy Ballot

Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
   44. Jeff K. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:00 AM (#3035427)
Hmm, looks like at the start, the biggest debate is Smith.

Post 1, he's in. Post 2 lists 10 guys and he's not one. 3 in, 4 out, 5 in, 6 out. 7-11 out, except 9. Pretty much significantly more out than in the rest of the way, except Emeigh has only 3 guys (the smallest ballot in the thread) and has him. Of people I know as HOM voters, Murphy, TDA, Howie, Emeigh, and we'll throw in Malcolm are pro, sunnyday2, Dan R, OCF, Crosby, Webber, DCW3, and Howie are anti.
   45. Jeff K. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:00 AM (#3035429)
Howie: the poster so nice I named him twice.
   46. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:17 AM (#3035438)
Rickey Henderson
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
David Cone
Tommy John
Lee Smith
   47. OCF Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:18 AM (#3035440)
Jeff K :

TDA, Emeigh, Malcolm, Crosby, and DCW3 are not HoM voters. But karlmagnus, bjhanke, rawagman, and Tiboreau are.
   48. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:18 AM (#3035441)
Emeigh and Malcolm are not HoM voters unless they do it under aliaii(?)
   49. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:20 AM (#3035443)
Mike Emeigh - Lee Smith over Alan Trammell? Really?

I'm curious as to your explanation there. Do you think Frankie Frisch isn't Hall of Fame worthy, for example?
   50. Jeff K. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:23 AM (#3035447)
TDA isn't a HOM voter? I could have sworn. And I noted Malcolm. Oh, and it's AJM who is a voter, not DCW.
   51. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:26 AM (#3035448)
I guarantee, GUARANTEE, that if you polled 1000 Cubs fans outside Wrigley Field any day of the season half would not even remember the guy and the other half would curse his name or roll their eyes.

And that's a Hall of Famer?

I could hammer the numbers but why bother? He fails the most basic test.

Nobody remembers the SOB.
   52. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:30 AM (#3035450)
He fails the most basic test.

You misspelled 'stupid'.
   53. Phil Plantier's Famous Toilet Seat Stance Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:32 AM (#3035454)
If I had a ballot I'd always vote for 10...

1.Rickey Henderson
2.Bert Blyleven
3.Tim Raines
4.Dale Murphy
5.Mark McGwire
6.Alan Trammell
7.Andre Dawson
8.Dave Parker
9.Don Mattingly
10.David Cone
   54. Jeff K. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:36 AM (#3035456)
I don't see Smith as a HOFer, myself (see my ballot), but I'm very curious as to Mike's reasoning.
   55. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:40 AM (#3035460)
Jeff:

Voting for Smith and not Trammell is by far the weirdest stance Mike has taken on this site.

It's akin to hyping Chuck Mangione while dismissing Herbie Nichols.
   56. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:47 AM (#3035465)
* Rickey Henderson
* Tim Raines
* Alan Trammell
* Mark McGwire
* Bert Blyleven
* Tommy John
   57. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 22, 2008 at 12:55 AM (#3035469)
I think if Smith had started his career in 1970 (not as many career saves, but would probably have been competitive with Gossage in that department with many more innings under his belt than he actually had) or 1990 (more saves and a lower ERA+), he would be in. Being a reliever during a transitional period for the position didn't help him, IMO.
   58. Posada Posse Posted: December 22, 2008 at 01:40 AM (#3035483)
1. Bert Blyleven
2. Rickey Henderson
3. Tommy John
4. Tim Raines
5. Alan Trammell
   59. Srul Itza At Home Posted: December 22, 2008 at 01:48 AM (#3035484)
1. Rickey Henderson
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Tim Raines
4. Mark McGwire
5. Tommy John
6. Alan Trammel
7. Andre Dawson
   60. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 22, 2008 at 01:53 AM (#3035486)
Thanks for the opportunity for non-HoM voters to participate. My ballot:

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   61. The District Attorney Posted: December 22, 2008 at 01:57 AM (#3035489)
Jeff, I have like two votes 150 "years" ago under a different username. I am a wannabe HOM voter, not a real one ;)

There is no doubt that Blyleven did win fewer games and lose more than you would expect given his run support and the quality of his pitching. I believe Mike essentially feels that this is disqualifying.
   62. The District Attorney Posted: December 22, 2008 at 01:59 AM (#3035490)
Oh, we're critiquing his failure to vote for Trammell? My bad. That explanation, I haven't heard yet ;)
   63. Don Malcolm Posted: December 22, 2008 at 02:22 AM (#3035500)
It's akin to hyping Chuck Mangione while dismissing Herbie Nichols.


And that's got to be the weirdest analogy made here in a long, long time, Harvey. I mean, we get the idea that you think Chuck and Lee are hacks, but Trammell and Herbie Nichols? Trammell wasn't obscure and overlooked during his career, though it's true he was never seen as an "artist" on the level of Ozzie in terms of defense. Geez, maybe Phineas Newborn, Jr., y'know, someone who was at least well-known but not at the level of Monk or Powell (Bud, not Boog).

Let's not forget that Fingers and Gossage have ERA+ values below Smith. Sutter is only a bit higher. They have more IP/G, but in this age of the one-inning closer it's easy to forget that <u>more than 300</u> of Smith's appearances were greater than an inning in length.

What's funniest, though, is the info about Mangione and baseball that you'll find at Wikipedia (apologies in advance if the link is f'd up). Check it out. And Joe D. will be stoked to know which team is Chuck's favorite...

<a >Chuck Mangione at wikipedia</ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Mangione</a>
   64. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 02:51 AM (#3035512)
From wikipedia

On July 4, 1983 Chuck Mangione was in attendance as the New York Yankees played the Boston Red Sox at Yankee Stadium. On this date Dave Righetti pitched a no-hitter for the Yankees. After playing the national anthem on the flughelhorn, Mangione, a Yankees fan, joined Phil Rizzuto and Bill White in the broadcast booth. Mangione gave his thoughts on the Yankee players and played a few bars of Feels So Good.


Good stuff Don! I remember that game like it was yesterday. I was 10 years old and at Grandma's for the 4th of July with all the cousins, aunts and uncles, etc.. Great memories!
   65. Mark Donelson Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:03 AM (#3035522)
Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   66. Chris Cobb Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:11 AM (#3035529)
There is no doubt that Blyleven did win fewer games and lose more than you would expect given his run support and the quality of his pitching. I believe Mike essentially feels that this is disqualifying.

That's what I understand as well. It's worth remembering that Walter Johnson was similarly crummy in this regard. It's a shame they let guys like him, who don't really know how to win, into the Hall of Fame.
   67. JPWF13 Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:37 AM (#3035536)
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Tommy John
   68. CrosbyBird Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:52 AM (#3035549)
I really wanted to get involved with the HOM project, but the size is so far removed from my ideal HOF and my knowledge of a good deal of the older eligible players (for example, Negro Leaguers) is so limited that I felt I'd never add much to the discussion. That's why I usually just read HOM threads.

I was thrilled to get the opportunity to vote under HOF rules, where I feel at least marginally competent to discuss all of the eligible candidates.
   69. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 22, 2008 at 04:21 AM (#3035567)
As far as pitching to the score goes... Mike, how do you feel about pitching WPA? Fangraphs gives Lee Smith 23.97 WPA for his career, and Blyleven 22.34 for the years it covers for him (1974 and following); going to Sagarin's WPA database for the preceding seasons (which may have incomplete data) gives him a career total of 32.75. Even if he did lose value by pitching badly to the score (which I don't disagree with), he's still further above average in terms of WPA than Smith was, and the average baseline generally favors the closer.
   70. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 05:17 AM (#3035616)
That is a great DB Eric. I had no idea it existed.
   71. HGM Posted: December 22, 2008 at 05:40 AM (#3035630)
My votes:

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   72. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 05:54 AM (#3035639)
WPA for 1974 to the present is available at fangraphs.com
   73. eric Posted: December 22, 2008 at 07:05 AM (#3035660)
In order of how they came into my head:

Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines


I'm a small-hall guy.
   74. Rusty Priske Posted: December 22, 2008 at 02:30 PM (#3035713)
I may be the only vote for Grace.

Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Mark Grace
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   75. Lassus Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:07 PM (#3035725)
1. Henderson
2. Blyleven
3. Raines
4. Dawson
5. Lee Smith
6. McGwire
7. Parker
8. Trammell
9. Murphy
10. Orosco
   76. Lassus Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:11 PM (#3035731)
Whoops - I apologize, I need to correct that vote, John. I didn't understand the "only guys you want in the Hall" part.

My new and amended ballot:

1. Henderson
2. Blyleven
3. Raines
4. Dawson
5. Lee Smith
6. McGwire
   77. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2008 at 03:57 PM (#3035764)
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
David Cone
Lee Smith
Tommy John
   78. Evan Posted: December 22, 2008 at 04:43 PM (#3035801)
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Andre Dawson
   79. Wes Parkers Mood (Mike Green) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 05:12 PM (#3035834)
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Tommy John
   80. ronw Posted: December 22, 2008 at 07:05 PM (#3035920)
Alphabetically:

Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   81. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 22, 2008 at 07:10 PM (#3035926)
Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

Write In's:
Darrell Evans
Rick Reuschel
Lou Whitaker
   82. Steve M. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 07:42 PM (#3035961)
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines

Small-hall guy.
   83. Sean Gilman Posted: December 22, 2008 at 10:22 PM (#3036151)
Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   84. Paul M Hates Krispy Kreme Posted: December 22, 2008 at 10:39 PM (#3036167)
Blyleven
Cone
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   85. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 10:42 PM (#3036170)
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   86. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 10:47 PM (#3036174)
McGwire
Henderson
Blyleven
Tim Raines
Trammell
   87. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: December 22, 2008 at 10:49 PM (#3036179)
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

Shocking, I know...
   88. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:00 PM (#3036187)
Henderson
Raines
Lee Smith

No change from prelim, no reason to change.

-- MWE


Mike, I see your ballot is Blyleven-free. Below I've snipped an exchange we had in a recent Blyleven thread regarding blown leads (link below; it's not embedding properly). You never answered the question I posed, and so I'll pull an Andy and ask it again, since I'm genuinely curious as to your answer:

Mike:
Blyleven is in the 65-75 range, in a bunch with, among others, Hunter, Glavine, Kaat, Gaylord Perry, and Jim Bunning. Roberts, Niekro and Bunning (marginally; they're essentially tied) are the only actual HOF pitchers worse than Blyleven (well, Eckersley too, but he's not in there for being a starter); Morris and Smoltz are the only potential candidates worse than Blyleven.


Ray:
Ok, how many of Glavine, Gaylord Perry, Roberts, Niekro, Bunning, and Smoltz have you argued are not "HOF worthy" on this basis? Or, to put it in the same way you characterized Blyleven in post #32, how many of these pitchers have you argued "go from the realm of 'no doubt' to the realm of 'borderline, probably out' due to their performance in this area?


http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/the_baseball_analysts_lederer_another_addition_to_the_bert_blyleven_series/
   89. Steve Treder Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:07 PM (#3036192)
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   90. Jeff K. Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:30 PM (#3036214)
In order of how they came into my head:

Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines


I'm a small-hall guy.


----
Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tim Raines

Small-hall guy.


--------

It seems to me (and I'm not arguing against your ballots, just using examples) that this is a byproduct of the saturation of Blyleven. Does a true small-hall voter choose Blyleven in a vacuum? I think he's a HOFer, I do *not* think he's a small-hall HOFer. I think this is where the "overrated while underrated" comes in. I'm not a small-hall guy, I think it's pretty much fine the way it is, if we could ditch the lowest 10% and either replace or just leave them out. Either way would be a-okay.
   91. Delorians Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:32 PM (#3036216)
Voting for 10 because the real hall has been too restrictive of late compared to past standards:

Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
McGwire
Trammell
Murphy
Dawson
Rice
L Smith
John
   92. DCA Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:33 PM (#3036217)
The eligible candidates are:

Bert Blyleven
David Cone
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

I'd vote for Parker and Rice too if the ballot held 12.
   93. DCA Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:34 PM (#3036218)
um, I should have deleted that first line from where I cut and paste from the intro. not that you couldn't figure it out.
   94. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2008 at 11:45 PM (#3036224)
I'd say Blyleven, Henderson and Raines fit into a hall with half the inductees as the current HoF. Trammell would be borderline and McGwire wouldn't meet that standard. They all easily meet the "10% smaller" standard with Cone and Smith as borderline.
   95. Jeff K. Posted: December 23, 2008 at 12:36 AM (#3036267)
I did a lot of research on Cone during the massive Mussina thread from a few weeks ago, and I think the best you can say is he's borderline for the HOF now. He's not borderline for the 90% Hall, he's in if you do 100% but replace the worst 10% in the HOF now.
   96. dan b Posted: December 23, 2008 at 04:22 AM (#3036433)
Blyleven
Cone
Henderson
Mattingly
McGwire
Murphy
Parker
Raines
Trammell
   97. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 23, 2008 at 05:28 AM (#3036466)
Blyleven
Henderson
McGwire
Raines
Trammell


I thought really hard about David Cone. He was a favorite of mine when he was with the Mets. I'm really surprised that he isn't closer to 3000 strikeouts. But he simply doesn't have the career value to complement a peak that was very good, but not exceptional among HOFers. If it were not for the 1994-5 strike, he possibly would have two additional 20 win seasons (although he'd still be short, IMHO). But ultimately I cannot reconcile that Kevin Brown is a fringe candidate, yet clearly superior to Cone in both peak and career value.

Matt Williams was another guy that I enjoyed watching, but I can't justify his inclusion. He's closer than a lot of people realize (given his stellar defense in the first half of his career), but he just didn't have the durability to amass enough career value.

Parker, Murphy, Smith, Rice... I'm bored talking about these guys. They all have decent cases, but all fall short IMHO.
   98. Newtype Posted: December 23, 2008 at 05:31 AM (#3036469)
Bert Blyleven
David Cone*
Rickey Henderson*
Tommy John
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker*
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

Last out: Andre Dawson
Dropped off list: Harold Baines
* - New To my list

Question: Could a player who was removed earlier for being on less than 5% of ballots, but is still otherwise eligible (not on the banned list, and retired for less than 20 years), get on the next ballot if 5% of the writers wrote their names in on this years ballot?
   99. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 23, 2008 at 06:10 AM (#3036488)
Blyleven
Cone
Dawson
Henderson
John
McGwire
Murphy
Parker
Raines
Trammell

I'm voting for a full ten because the Hall should reflect the increasing number of players in MLB, which it doesn't seem to be doing. If I could pull names off the ineligible list I'd add those first, dropping Cone, Dawson, John, Murphy and Parker.
   100. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 23, 2008 at 06:16 AM (#3036490)
Blyleven, Dawson, Henderson, McGwire, Raines, Trammell
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