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Sunday, January 04, 2009

2009 Veterans Committee Ballot - Pre-WWII Players

The election will end on Jan. 11 at 8 PM Eastern. The post-WWII player ballot will be posted that day and end the following Sunday

Eligible candidates: Bill Dahlen, Wes Ferrell, Joe Gordon, Sherry Magee, Carl Mays, Allie Reynolds, Vern Stephens, Mickey Vernon, Bucky Walters and Deacon White.

Rules:

9. Voting: The Committee shall consider all eligible candidates and voting shall be based upon the individual’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as four (4) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted (Editor’s note: though if you want to post them, I’m not going to stop you from doing that).

10. Number to be Elected: All candidates receiving votes on at least 75% of ballots cast on will earn election.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 04, 2009 at 07:40 PM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 04, 2009 at 07:49 PM (#3043012)
In alphabetical order:

Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Bucky Walters
Deacon White
   2. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: January 04, 2009 at 07:54 PM (#3043017)
Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Deacon White
   3. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2009 at 08:00 PM (#3043022)
Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Deacon White
   4. Juan V Posted: January 04, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3043036)
Gonna do this one early. In alphabetical order:

Dahlen
Gordon
Magee
White


#5 would be Ferrell, who is right on my PHOM borderline.
   5. rawagman Posted: January 04, 2009 at 08:30 PM (#3043044)
No change from my prelim:
Bill Dahlen
Sherry Magee
Vern Stephens
Deacon White

Again, without the 4-man limit, I would also support Joe Gordon, and strongly consider both Wes Ferrell and Bucky Walters
   6. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 04, 2009 at 08:38 PM (#3043046)
No change from mine, either:

Magee
White

-- MWE
   7. Tiboreau Posted: January 04, 2009 at 10:25 PM (#3043092)
Bill Dahlen
Deacon White
   8. Adam Schafer Posted: January 04, 2009 at 10:47 PM (#3043102)
I'd vote for more than 4 if permitted. This is tough for me, but the 4 I will go with, in no particular order:
Dahlen
Stephens
White
Walters

I would've also voted for Gordon, Ferrell and Magee
   9. karlmagnus Posted: January 05, 2009 at 12:19 AM (#3043151)
Dahlen
Magee
Stephens
White

Would also vote for Mays and (just) Gordon if 4 wasn't the limit. Stephens is above Mays and would be above Gordon on my 2010 HOM ballot. Magee/Mays is very close.
   10. DL from MN Posted: January 05, 2009 at 01:04 AM (#3043174)
Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Deacon White

would vote for Walters
   11. Nolan Giesbrecht Posted: January 05, 2009 at 01:24 AM (#3043183)
Dahlen
Gordon
Stephens
White

I'd also vote for Magee if allowed. I was torn between Magee and Gordon as my fourth vote; it was basically a coin flip between those two.
   12. CCornell Posted: January 05, 2009 at 03:14 AM (#3043208)
Dahlen
Gordon
Magee
White
   13. HGM Posted: January 05, 2009 at 08:26 AM (#3043320)
Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Deacon White
   14. Newtype Posted: January 05, 2009 at 10:13 AM (#3043331)
Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Carl Mays
Deacon White
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: January 05, 2009 at 03:20 PM (#3043376)
Bill Dahlen
Deacon White
Sherry Magee
Joe Gordon
   16. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 05, 2009 at 03:38 PM (#3043392)
Dahlen
White

and um...

Magee
Walters

I'd vote for Ferrell too.
   17. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: January 05, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3043395)
Dahlen
White
Magee
Ferrell
   18. sunnyday2 Posted: January 05, 2009 at 04:24 PM (#3043431)
I have 8 of the veterans in my PHoM. Unfortunately there are 5 on one ballot and 3 on the other, so I have to actually think. Ouch.

Dahlen
White
Magee

Walters or Gordon, Gordon or Walters?

OK, Gordon
   19. Mike Webber Posted: January 05, 2009 at 05:20 PM (#3043477)
MOO! MOO!
Yep, I'm part of the herd.

Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Deacon White

MOO.
   20. Tony Ling Posted: January 05, 2009 at 06:16 PM (#3043517)
Dahlen
Gordon
Stephens
Mays
   21. DanG Posted: January 05, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3043672)
My four picks agree with the results of The Ultimate Quest for Candidates:

Bill Dahlen
Deacon White
Sherry Magee
Joe Gordon
   22. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 05, 2009 at 09:42 PM (#3043758)
1 name only:

Deacon White
   23. Rusty Priske Posted: January 05, 2009 at 10:16 PM (#3043795)
Dahlen
Magee
White
   24. jimd Posted: January 05, 2009 at 10:50 PM (#3043840)
Old-Timers Committee:
White
Dahlen
Ferrell
Gordon
   25. Sean Gilman Posted: January 05, 2009 at 11:31 PM (#3043880)
White
Dahlen
Magee
Ferrell
   26. ronw Posted: January 06, 2009 at 12:45 AM (#3043975)
White
Dahlen
Magee
Gordon

In that order. Also, if I could just vote in or out, Ferrell makes it too.
   27. Chris Cobb Posted: January 06, 2009 at 05:23 AM (#3044169)
In rank order:

Dahlen
White
Ferrell
Magee

Would also vote for Gordon, Stephens, and Walters if allowed. Gordon is rightly in the HoM, and Stephens and Walters are just short of the HoM, which makes them amply qualified for Cooperstown. But rules are rules . . .
   28. bjhanke Posted: January 06, 2009 at 12:39 PM (#3044274)
In order:

Deacon White (as a third baseman, but still vastly overqualified for the HoF)
Bill Dahlen (huge career, great glove, enough bat)
Sherry Magee (hot stick, hot glove)
Vern Stephens

I have Stephens over Gordon for two reasons:

1) Although Gordon deserves 2 years' credit for WWII, he didn't hit well (his power dropped off) in 42, 43, and 46, which implies, although it certainly does not prove, that Gordon had trouble with the balata ball and would not have hit well in 44 or 45, either.

2) Stephens' OPS+ is misleading because he played in a ballpark, at least for the Browns, which favored lefty hitters. It was a neutral ballpark for righties, as best I can tell, and Stephens was a righty. Even BB-Ref doesn't have lefty/righty ballpark splits, so the OPS+ includes factoring in a hitters' park that simply wasn't there for Junior.

- Brock Hanke
   29. Al Peterson Posted: January 06, 2009 at 04:53 PM (#3044399)
Alphabetically

Dahlen
Ferrell
Magee
White

Gordon and Walters would be on if expanded ballot available. Ferrell, Gordon and Walters were all very close with the AL hurler getting the nod.
   30. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 06, 2009 at 10:32 PM (#3044850)
White
Dahlen
Magee
Gordon
   31. Bleed the Freak Posted: January 07, 2009 at 12:58 PM (#3045204)
Bill Dahlen
Wes Ferrell
Sherry Magee
Deacon White

Joe Gordon is also worthy of induction.

Vern Stephens and Bucky Walters are deserving of close scrutiny, but they fall just shy in my system.
   32. MBL Posted: January 08, 2009 at 03:54 AM (#3046013)
Bill Dahlen
Joe Gordon
Vern Stephens
Deacon White
   33. bjhanke Posted: January 08, 2009 at 11:32 AM (#3046178)
Well, the subject of Deacon White came back into play here, and I owed some people an essay. Back when the HoM was ranking it's members by position (I call this "the positionals"), I promised the people there a long essay on 19th century catcher workloads, with an examination of Deacon White. I ran out of time to reconstruct the chart that I needed to do the essay, but I've done it now, and the Deacon is back in play. So I put the essay up on the Discussion thread for this HoF voting, rather than this ballot one. If you remember that Deacon White flap, or if you're interested in why someone might consider him to be a third baseman instead of a catcher, go check it out. Fair warning. It's long enough that I had to split it into two posts, because this list has a length limit on posts.

I hope you guys like it, - Brock Hanke
   34. JPWF13 Posted: January 08, 2009 at 08:05 PM (#3046692)
Bill Dahlen
Sherry Magee
Deacon White
Joe Gordon
   35. OCF Posted: January 11, 2009 at 06:24 PM (#3048872)
Deacon White
Bill Dahlen
Sherry Magee
Wes Ferrell

Explanations from my own voting history:

White: Elected before I started participating. But I see the 1898 results - that ballot had 15 or 16 HoMers on it and a couple of others who still draw some support, and White was the #1 vote getter there.

Dahlen: I had him #1 on my 1915 ballot, even ahead of George Davis.

Magee: I had him #2 on my 1925 ballot, behind Grant Johnson but four places ahead of Mordecai Brown. Brown's election carried Magee over to the 1926 ballot, where I had him #1, ahead of a quite a few HoFers: Brown (implied), McGinnity, Wallace, Sheckard, Waddell.

Ferrell: The key here is where I had him between 1956 and 1964. In those years, I had Ferrell on my ballot in positions ranging from 7 to 10 (#8 in the year of his election); in those same years, I had Joe Gordon off my official ballot but listed in my comments in positions ranging from 19 to 23. I had Red Ruffing one or two places ahead of Ferrell.

My problem is that I now think I was overrating Ferrell by overrating his offense. I was using a baseline that was more Lefty Gomez than it was an average-hitting pitcher. And I was overrating Ruffing for the same reason. I was seriously tempted here to cut my ballot off at three, not voting for either Ferrell or Gordon. After all, there are several HoM-not-HoF players not even on this ballot whom I'd take over Ferrell in a flash. But I decided to relent and fill out the ballot.

Here are the comments from my own 1960 ballot:

7. Wes Ferrell (11, 9, 10, 8, 8) Nice early peak, flamed out young as pitcher, stopped hitting as well. The fact that he pitched in the highest average run environment of any ballot-worthy 20th century pitcher puts his 2600 IP in perspective, since high-scoring innings are more stressful.

20. Joe Gordon (-, 19, 21, 20, 20) Not much to choose from between him and Herman.
   36. Rob_Wood Posted: January 11, 2009 at 07:39 PM (#3048908)
Deacon White
Bill Dahlen
   37. Paul Wendt Posted: January 12, 2009 at 12:22 AM (#3049023)
(Brock, I merely glanced at your essay on catchers. I didn't read for comprehension that would enable any statistical reply, although I agree with jimd about the danger of extrapolation, of course. The essay doesn't bear directly on Full Seasons equivalent games as I understand it, nor do related statistical themes bear much, as far as I know. Over there with jimd and others I have posted a couple paragraph that provide more explanation of my Full Seasons. That is no registered trademark, and it is already some distance out of hand, but I haven't moved my own position yet.)

Over there I did not post any discussion of the pre-1943 ballot, yet here is a complete ballot.

Deacon White. They should have elected him before the Centennial and dedication, the famous events of summer 1939. Baseball and Cooperstown could well have included White and Wright in some Centennial and Hall and Museum planning and promoting --health permitting, which means not much work and only at early stages. They are two who should have been invited far in advance to participate in the centennial events both in their home regions and at Cooperstown.
(Wright died before the centennial events, White soon after. I will have more to say on this someday but now is not the time or the place.)

Bill Dahlen

Sherry Magee

Joe Gordon. This may be the last vote I will ever cast for Joe Flash Gordon!
   38. Paul Wendt Posted: January 12, 2009 at 01:04 AM (#3049044)
"Everyone" knows this by now but here is a reminder.

Gordon, Mays, and Ferrell were on all three ballots of about 25 players that living Hall of Fame members and honorees considered in 2003/2005/2007. Among the old-timers Gordon led Reynolds-Mays-Ferrell in 2003 and led Mays-Ferrell in 2005. Mickey Vernon led Gordon-Ferrell-Mays in 2007. The numbers of votes for Gordon, Mays, and Ferrell declined monotonically from 19-16-12 to 10-6-7; in Gordon's case from about 23% to 12%.

Walters, Stephens, and Dahlen were among 200 players stage one nominees in all three cycles. Sherry Magee made the first screen in 2007 and Deacon White never made it.
   39. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 12, 2009 at 01:59 AM (#3049068)
The election is now over. Results will be posted at 10.

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