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Monday, December 21, 2009

2010 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end Jan 4 (8 PM EDT). Results will be posted at the same time.

Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.+
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

The eligible candidates are: Roberto Alomar*, Kevin Appier*, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Ellis Burks*, Andre Dawson, Andres Galarraga*, Pat Hentgen*, Mike Jackson*, Eric Karros*, Ray Lankford*, Barry Larkin*, Edgar Martinez*, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Fred McGriff*, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Shane Reynolds*, David Segui*, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Robin Ventura*, and Todd Zeile*.

* 1st-year candidates

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2009 at 09:48 PM | 256 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 1 of 3 pages  1 2 3 > 
   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2009 at 09:55 PM (#3418901)
In alphabetical order:

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   2. SoSH U at work Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:00 PM (#3418906)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   3. RJ in TO Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:05 PM (#3418916)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   4. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:09 PM (#3418922)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   5. WillYoung Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:28 PM (#3418943)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   6. Enten Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:30 PM (#3418947)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   7. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:35 PM (#3418952)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   8. UCCF Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:43 PM (#3418965)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   9. Srul Itza Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:44 PM (#3418967)
1. Roberto Alomar
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Andre Dawson
4. Barry Larkin
5. Edgar Martinez
6. Mark McGwire
7. Tim Raines
8. Alan Trammell
   10. JJ1986 Posted: December 21, 2009 at 10:59 PM (#3418985)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   11. BFFB Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:10 PM (#3418992)
Alomar, Roberto
Blyleven, Bert
Larkin, Barry
Martinez, Edgar
McGwire, Mark
Raines, Tim
Trammell, Alan
   12. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:12 PM (#3418998)
Alomar
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   13. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:27 PM (#3419015)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   14. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:30 PM (#3419018)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   15. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:32 PM (#3419021)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   16. OaklandAs Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:36 PM (#3419030)
Alomar, Roberto
Blyleven, Bert
Larkin, Barry
Martinez, Edgar
McGwire, Mark
Raines, Tim
Trammell, Alan
   17. JMPH Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:36 PM (#3419031)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   18. LargeBill Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:42 PM (#3419036)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy (heck, if writers can give a tip of the cap vote so can I)
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   19. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:47 PM (#3419039)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

+ 3 extras

Kevin Appier
Lee Smith
Robin Ventura
   20. DL from MN Posted: December 21, 2009 at 11:58 PM (#3419046)
Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
   21. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 22, 2009 at 12:15 AM (#3419056)
Roughly in the order I'd take them:

1. Barry Larkin
2. Tim Raines
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Mark McGwire
7. Andre Dawson
8. Edgar Martinez
9. Dale Murphy
10. Fred McGriff

I think you could reasonably draw the in/out line after any of #5, 6, 7, or 10. I'm going with drawing the line after McGriff: I think that best reflects the actual standards of the real Hall of Fame.
   22. Mark Donelson Posted: December 22, 2009 at 12:27 AM (#3419067)
Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
   23. OCF Posted: December 22, 2009 at 12:30 AM (#3419069)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   24. Nolan Giesbrecht Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:08 AM (#3419094)
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
   25. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:12 AM (#3419097)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines

Probably the intersection of all BBTF ballots, which works fine for me, since I'm a small hall guy. Larkin and Blyleven are close in my mind (it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Merit.)
   26. Rivers McCown Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:15 AM (#3419100)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   27. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:37 AM (#3419108)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   28. karlmagnus Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:42 AM (#3419113)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   29. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:45 AM (#3419119)
Alphabetical order:

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   30. MBL Posted: December 22, 2009 at 01:51 AM (#3419123)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Dale Murphy
   31. Fridas Boss Posted: December 22, 2009 at 02:17 AM (#3419137)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   32. Neal Traven Posted: December 22, 2009 at 02:26 AM (#3419144)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   33. Bourbon Samurai Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:03 AM (#3419161)
alomar
blyleven
larkin
mcgriff
mcgwire
raines
trammell
   34. John DiFool2 Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:07 AM (#3419163)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   35. CCornell Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:26 AM (#3419170)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell

And

Dawson
Martinez
McGriff
Murphy
   36. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:33 AM (#3419173)
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
   37. Steve M. Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:35 AM (#3419175)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   38. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:36 AM (#3419178)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   39. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: December 22, 2009 at 04:12 AM (#3419192)
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Fred McGriff
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
   40. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: December 22, 2009 at 04:19 AM (#3419196)
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Andre Dawson
   41. mex4173 Posted: December 22, 2009 at 04:34 AM (#3419204)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   42. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 22, 2009 at 05:47 AM (#3419260)
Primer is going to elect the #### out of Bert Blyleven this year. If we all think enough good thoughts, it can happen!

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   43. pinball1973 Posted: December 22, 2009 at 05:50 AM (#3419267)
1. Barry Larkin
2. Tim Raines
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Edgar Martinez
   44. Newtype Posted: December 22, 2009 at 06:19 AM (#3419286)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   45. DCW3 Posted: December 22, 2009 at 06:58 AM (#3419306)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   46. bartap74 Posted: December 22, 2009 at 08:30 AM (#3419323)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
   47. Eric P. Posted: December 22, 2009 at 08:33 AM (#3419324)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
   48. OCF Posted: December 22, 2009 at 08:52 AM (#3419330)
bartap74: do you mean to vote for just 7 candidates, or in your two mentions of Larkin, is one supposed to be someone else?
   49. bjhanke Posted: December 22, 2009 at 11:04 AM (#3419342)
Here's Brock Hanke's vote, in my idea of order:

1. Mark McGwire
2. Barry Larkin
3. Tim Raines
4. Bert Blyleven
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Alan Trammell
7. Edgar Martinez
8. Ray Lankford

I used Dan R's estimate of Edgar's fielding rank as a DH (-9 runs per 162 games). That just got him over the line.

I have Lankford here because he's a favorite of mine. He's close enough that if some miracle analysis of his center field defense came along, he might scrape in, so this is a sort-of "give him the 5% on the first one, just in case" deal. If those are outlawed here (they are common in the actual HoF voting), please strike my vote for him. He's at least as good as Lloyd Waner, and much more FEARED! But unless his glove somehow was the equal of Curt Flood's, and we all just missed it, he's not there.

I ended up with Kevin Appier in the middle of a group of Jimmy Key, David Cone, and Frank Viola. I have them so close that my decision was not whether Kevin belonged in the HoF, but rather whether the entire foursome belonged in. I decided no, so no vote for Kevin. This is also one big reason why I don't have David Cone on my HoM ballots. If there are a lot of guys in a group on a borderline, no one of them belongs in. They go in as a group or not at all. That's why Leever with Phillippe. You can't separate them.

As for the ordering, I perceive a gap between Larkin and Raines. I have a definition for a small hall / inner circle HoFer. If you took an average team, and added this guy, would they suddenly become pennant contenders? Only Mark and Barry really fit that. You all saw that in action with last year's Cards. Without Albert Pujols, they were an average team. Lousy offense, good pitching, averaging out overall. With Albert, they were contending for the division title, but not the frontrunners. Adding Holliday, they ran away with it. Albert is (at least) in a class with McGwire and Larkin.
   50. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 22, 2009 at 11:05 AM (#3419343)
I once again think at least 10 candidates are qualified:

1. Bert Blyleven
2. Barry Larkin
3. Alan Trammell
4. Tim Raines
(gap)
5. Mark McGwire
6. Roberto Alomar
7. Andre Dawson (he hasn't had much support thus far, so I just posted an argument for him on the discussion thread)
8. Edgar Martinez
(gap)
9. Fred McGriff
10. Lee Smith
   51. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 22, 2009 at 11:08 AM (#3419344)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   52. God Posted: December 22, 2009 at 12:29 PM (#3419347)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   53. Rusty Priske Posted: December 22, 2009 at 02:41 PM (#3419379)
• Roberto Alomar

• Bert Blyleven

• Andre Dawson

• Barry Larkin

• Fred McGriff

• Mark McGwire

• Dale Murphy

• Dave Parker

• Tim Raines

• Alan Trammell
   54. zonk Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:02 PM (#3419388)
Better mistakes of inclusion than sins of omission - my ballot is unchanged from the discussion thread:


Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Lee Smith

I took Murphy, McGriff, and Smith from a group of 5 maybes for the last 3 spots that also included Dave Parker and Andre Dawson. Murphy's peak was better than either Dawson or Parker, he was at least the equal defensively of Dawson as well - he was the easiest vote for me.

McGriff is uninspiring, but ultimately too much career to omit.

Lee Smith was the only one I struggled with... just too many memories of nail-biting from his Cubs days, but the inclusion of closers in the HOF is inevitable and strictly by the numbers, Lee Arthur probably ought to be in. Maybe he ends up being the George Sisler to Goose's Tris Speaker or Mariano's Ty Cobb - but he's still good enough.

[Edit: BTW, I think DLGM makes some excellent points in the HOF discussion regarding Dawson. I was thisclsoe to putting a strike through Lee Smith and adding in Dawson, but then -- I'm highly prone to coercion before I finish my first cup of coffee, so my ballot will stand for now. Next ballot, presuming neither Dawson nor Smith gain enshrinement and thus, appear again - I might well go the other direction.]
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:06 PM (#3419391)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Trammell
Raines
   56. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:08 PM (#3419395)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Lee Smith
   57. HGM Posted: December 22, 2009 at 03:31 PM (#3419417)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
   58. The District Attorney Posted: December 22, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3419569)
1. Tim Raines
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Alan Trammell
4. Barry Larkin
5. Roberto Alomar
6. Edgar Martinez
7. Andre Dawson
8. Dale Murphy
9. Fred McGriff
10. Lee Smith
   59. Juan V Posted: December 22, 2009 at 04:56 PM (#3419583)
I'll vote my PHOM.

Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

Appier and Murphy are borderliners, and McGwire, well... you know. The other five, I'm pretty convinced they belong.
   60. DanG Posted: December 22, 2009 at 06:56 PM (#3419858)
Presented in order of preference.

Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Andre Dawson
Edgar Martinez
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
   61. Adam S Posted: December 22, 2009 at 07:41 PM (#3419930)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   62. EddieA Posted: December 22, 2009 at 08:10 PM (#3419985)
alomar
blyleven
larkin
mcgriff
mcgwire
murphy
parker
raines
smith
trammell
   63. sunnyday2 Posted: December 22, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3420041)
Alomar
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
Mattingly
McGwire
Morris
Murphy
Parker
Raines
Trammell

Oh, OK, delete Mattingly and Murphy.
   64. Chris Fluit Posted: December 22, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3420064)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   65. Paul M Hates Krispy Kreme Posted: December 22, 2009 at 09:02 PM (#3420084)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   66. Arrieta, Gentile Arrieta Posted: December 23, 2009 at 01:18 AM (#3420368)
Alomar
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Smith
Trammell
   67. Riley Esco Posted: December 23, 2009 at 01:32 AM (#3420381)
Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
   68. Adam Schafer Posted: December 23, 2009 at 04:27 AM (#3420487)
Not sure who the other Adam S. is, but glad to have some company!
My 9 in alphabetical order:
-Roberto Alomar
-Bert Blyleven
-Andre Dawson
-Barry Larkin
-Edgar Martinez
-Mark McGwire
-Tim Raines
-Lee Smith
-Alan Trammell
   69. base ball chick Posted: December 23, 2009 at 04:33 AM (#3420494)
don't know if i have to be a HOM voting member to vote here, but in case this is open to all

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   70. SWW Posted: December 23, 2009 at 04:45 AM (#3420502)
Alphabetically:

Roberto Alomar Velazquez
Rik Aalbert Blyleven - "The Dutch Master"
Andre Nolan Dawson - "Hawk"
Barry Louis Larkin
Mark David McGwire - "Big Mac"
Dale Bryan Murphy
David Gene Parker - "Cobra"
Timothy Raines - "Rock"
Alan Stuart Trammell
   71. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 23, 2009 at 04:53 AM (#3420507)
Roberto Alomar Velazquez
Rik Aalbert Blyleven - "The Dutch Master"
Andre Nolan Dawson - "Hawk"
Barry Louis Larkin
Mark David McGwire - "Big Mac"
Dale Bryan Murphy
David Gene Parker - "Cobra"
Timothy Raines - "Rock"
Alan Stuart Trammell


That reminds me of an old Yankees yearbook I once had that spelled out the full names of all the players, including "William Joseph Moose Skowron," as if the "Moose" had been right there on his birth certificate.
   72. alilisd Posted: December 23, 2009 at 07:01 PM (#3420966)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   73. Phil Plantier's Famous Toilet Seat Stance Posted: December 23, 2009 at 10:38 PM (#3421181)
If I had a vote, I'd vote for ten...These ten:

Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Bert Blyleven
Robin Ventura
Kevin Appier
Andre Dawson
   74. Eddo Posted: December 23, 2009 at 10:57 PM (#3421199)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Robin Ventura
   75. Don Malcolm Posted: December 24, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3421255)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Byleven
Barry Larkin
Edgsr Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jesse Orosco*
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

*Don't raise those eyebrows: I always vote for Jesse.
   76. Hugh Jorgan Posted: December 24, 2009 at 12:27 AM (#3421267)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Raines
   77. DL from MN Posted: December 24, 2009 at 04:53 PM (#3421623)
> maybe the second or third most complere Shortstop of all-time

??? - Wagner, Ripken, Larkin?

Not quite - but top 10 isn't a stretch.
   78. Soul Man Posted: December 24, 2009 at 05:09 PM (#3421644)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

I can't pull the trigger on McGriff; maybe next year.
   79. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 24, 2009 at 05:31 PM (#3421673)
Pretoric--and Blyleven?
   80. DetroitMichael Posted: December 24, 2009 at 06:23 PM (#3421725)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   81. Don Malcolm Posted: December 24, 2009 at 07:49 PM (#3421810)
<u>Unofficial count after 78 ballots</u>:

Larkin, Raines 100%; Alomar 99%; Blyleven 97%; Trammell 94%;
McGwire 88%;
Martinez 71%,
McGriff 38%; Dawson 37%;
Murphy 23%; Smith 21%;
Appier 6%, Parker 5%; Ventura, Morris 3%; Lankford, Orosco 1%.
   82. sunnyday2 Posted: December 24, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3421842)
Bert Blyleven, at least not anymore than you think of Doug Drabek when you consider the 1990's.


OK that was snarky. But this can barely be taken seriously. Blyleven is a slippery slope guy and McGriff is NOT? Check #86 next post. I agree Ventura brought rarer and therefore more valuable skills to the party than Crime Dog, though I wouldn't vote for either one. Slippery slope and all of that.
   83. Brent Posted: December 24, 2009 at 08:46 PM (#3421843)
My selections match the top nine players from Sean Smith's WAR data:

Bert Blyleven, 87.6
Barry Larkin. 68.8
Edgar Martinez, 67.2
Alan Trammell, 66.8
Tim Raines, 64.9
Roberto Alomar, 63.6
Mark McGwire, 63.1
Andre Dawson, 56.8
Robin Ventura, 55.1

Not on my ballot: McGriff, 50.5; Appier, 50.0; Burks, 47.9; Murphy, 44.4; Mattingly, 39.8; Morris, 39.3; Lankford, 38.4; Parker, 37.9; Baines, 37.0; Hentgen, 31.3; Smith, 29.8; Galarraga, 26.8; Jackson, 18.1; Reynolds, 15.6; Zeile, 14.8; Karros, 9.1; Segui, 7.8.
   84. OCF Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:10 PM (#3421858)
Don Malcolm: It's a Hall of Merit tradition not to post ballot counts while the ballot is still active. While it is public, and anyone can count, there are voters who prefer not to see full accurate counts, at least until after they've voted. (I have a one-vote discrepancy with you somewhere, and am currently cross-checking that with John Murphy.)
   85. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:22 PM (#3421866)
Yes, we certainly have no problems with anybody doing their own tally, but we request no posting of them here. Some consider it a form of electioneering (in fact, I think I was accused of it at the beginning of the HoM project :-), so we have discouraged it ever since.
   86. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:30 PM (#3421870)
Yes, we certainly have no problems with anybody doing their own tally, but we request no posting of them here. Some consider it a form of electioneering (in fact, I think I was accused of it at the beginning of the HoM project :-), so we have discouraged it ever since.


Considering this is one of those crossover projects that involves non-HOM guys, that message is something you'll probably want to add to next year's Hall of Fame Ballot, if not in the lengthy instructions, then definitely in the first post.
   87. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:32 PM (#3421871)
Considering this is one of those crossover projects that involves non-HOM guys, that message is something you'll probably want to add to next year's Hall of Fame Ballot, if not in the lengthy instructions, then definitely in the first post.


For the future, I agree.
   88. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:49 PM (#3421881)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

I'm leaving off Dawson and Edgar, at least for now. Haven't looked yet at this thread but I suspect I may be a lone voice in the wilderness on McGriff.
   89. JJ1986 Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:56 PM (#3421885)
I don't think McGriff was ever viewed as the best first baseman in the league. By 1994 Bagwell was clearly better, and both McGwire and Clark were better hitters before that. That's ignoring the fact that the best hitter in the game was playing 1B during McGriff's peak. Even if you discount Thomas for defense, Crime Dog can't pass him.
   90. RJ in TO Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:05 PM (#3421890)
I don't think McGriff was ever viewed as the best first baseman in the league.


From 1988 to 1994 (cherry picked as McGriff's peak), McGriff put up a 153 OPS+ in 1037. In comparison:

Will Clark: 146 OPS+ in 1009 G
Jeff Bagwell: 155 OPS+ in 570 G
Frank Thomas: 184 OPS+ in 644 G
Mark McGwire: 140 OPS+ in 821 G

It's pretty questionable, since it's placing McGriff's peak against others' off-peak years or partial peaks, but for that stretch, there's a decent case (but not exactly great case) to be made that McGriff was the best 1B in the league.
   91. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:10 PM (#3421892)
the current (as in 1994) Dream Team in baseball

I don't disagree with you that Blyleven is not as obvious a HOFer as many make him out to be -- if he were, he'd be in. But that's one weird team your book had. Was it supposed to be active players? Living players? Schmidt was long retired, Carter was retired, Winfield on his last legs, Strawberry's best well behind him... I'd put no stock in that, unless the criteria are different than you stated.

and sorry for further defacing the ballot thread
   92. JJ1986 Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:15 PM (#3421896)
but for that stretch, there's a decent case (but not exactly great case) to be made that McGriff was the best 1B in the league.

But that's only if you cut it up that way. Thomas came up Aug 1990. He dominates McGriff. Clark had two dominant years, but they're 1988-89. So McGriff might have been the best for that whole five year period, but he's only the best for four months in it.
   93. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:15 PM (#3421897)
#93, I don't think it's a requirement that a player has to have been the best at his position during any particular time period. That said, there weren't many 1B better than McGriff from '88-'94 (or thereabouts). Will Clark, maybe. Thomas I consider came along later. But even if there were one or two better, McGriff is still pretty high up there, if that's your criteria.
   94. JJ1986 Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:21 PM (#3421900)
#93, I don't think it's a requirement that a player has to have been the best at his position during any particular time period.

I don't either. I was responding to the claim that he "was the best first baseman in the game for portions of the 1990s". It's totally possible to be the best over a period aligning with your peak and not ever the best.
   95. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:22 PM (#3421901)
But that's only if you cut it up that way. Thomas came up Aug 1990. He dominates McGriff. Clark had two dominant years, but they're 1988-89. So McGriff might have been the best for that whole five year period, but he's only the best for four months in it.


But you said "I don't think McGriff was ever viewed as the best first baseman in the league." From 1988-1994, he was, by many. I don't see how Thomas even figures into that, actually, since in 1989 nobody was considering Thomas as the best first baseman in the league.

The point is that McGriff has a very strong argument that he was, for a good stretch of years, if that's your criteria. (Whether he was "viewed as" such as opposed to actually being such I don't really find all that relevant.) To deny that McGriff was right there for several years in a row -- and we're allowed to cherry pick the stretch of years since your claim was that he was not ever viewed as the best 1B in the league -- seems to me to be irrational.
   96. JJ1986 Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:28 PM (#3421905)
I don't want to derail the thread anymore, so I'll just clarify and stop. In 1993 or 1994, looking back, it's totally reasonable to pick McGriff as the best first baseman of the past five years. But during that time, when one was ranking players (like the 100 best player lists or whatever that get posted here), it would have been quite rare to see McGriff ranked #1 at 1B. After 1989, it would have been Clark and by 1991 it would have been Thomas.
   97. OCF Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:31 PM (#3421907)
I'd happily vote for Clark ahead of McGriff - and we did elect him to the HoM - but Clark has dropped off the BBWAA ballot.
   98. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:32 PM (#3421908)
#101, but who cares? Seriously. It's one thing to ask whether he was the best 1B in the game. I can see how that would be useful. But to care about whether he was viewed as the best 1B in the game? Of what relevance is that?

(Is this thread meant just for posting our votes, and not so much for discussion purposes?)
   99. JJ1986 Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:33 PM (#3421909)
There's a discussion thread. I'll bump it.
   100. OCF Posted: December 24, 2009 at 10:35 PM (#3421911)
There's no requirement that votes be explained - we'll count them all, just the way you posted them. Of course no one is exempt from having someone else raise eyebrows at his vote.

However, if we're going to get into actual back-and-forth discussion, it would probably be more productive to move it to this thread.
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