2010 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot
IMPORTANT: Please read:
This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.
The election will end Jan 4 (8 PM EDT). Results will be posted at the same time.
Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.
Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:
3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.
4. Method of Election
A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.+
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
The eligible candidates are: Roberto Alomar*, Kevin Appier*, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Ellis Burks*, Andre Dawson, Andres Galarraga*, Pat Hentgen*, Mike Jackson*, Eric Karros*, Ray Lankford*, Barry Larkin*, Edgar Martinez*, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Fred McGriff*, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Shane Reynolds*, David Segui*, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Robin Ventura*, and Todd Zeile*.
* 1st-year candidates
Reader Comments and Retorts
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Change your name to "Dan Szymborski"?
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
McGriff and Morris were just off my ballot. Then Appier, I wanted to vote for Appier but not before Morris.
Larkin
McGwire
McGriff
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
Smith
Matinez
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Roberto Alomar [missed him! Whoops!]
Tim Raines
Dawson and Martinez are borderline for me - Dawson because of his hitting numbers, Martinez because of my irrational hatred of the DH/my DH penalty. As much as my Cub-fan self would like to include Dawson, I'm not sure that I do. I'm also wary of Lee Smith, because I believe that relievers ought to be treated like anyone else, and Smith stacks up favorably against other relievers around/in the Hall (or who will be, since I also believe that relievers in the Hall is inevitable, but I think it's a good thing), but, as with Dawson, I err on the side of caution. I'd be happy with a Hall with Martinez/Dawson/Smith, but it's probably not my Hall. And, yeah, it's the HoF I'm voting for, not my Personal HoF, but I like to have my votes for the former match up with the latter. Just my choice.
(I understand no explanation is required, but I figured I'd have a bit)
Also, just to ask, was my vote for Ray Lankford, along with the explanation, a violation of the guidelines? I read the first paragraph over and it seems like I may have done something wrong there. If so, I apologize and won't do it again. Well, not intentionally, he says, remembering Tim Keefe and Amos Rusie. - Brock
That was me, Brock.
Since he's not eligible, his "candidacy" is a moot point anyway. :-)
You can vote for whomever you want without explanations. For these special election, we're not as rigid as we are with the HoM elections. This should be viewed more as a fun exercise (not that our normal HoM elections are not fun, of course, but our credibility as a voting bloc is on the line there).
Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holidays and all that jazz, guys (and Lisa :-D)!
Don't worry about it, Pretoric. It's no biggie.
Newcomers:
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Holdovers:
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Andre Dawson
I am a big-hall guy. Dawson is borderline, but enough to make my concept of the Hall of Fame. Mattingley isn't too far back.
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
Blyleven
McGriff
Martinez
McGwire
Blyleven
Larkin
E. Martinez
Raines
Trammell
Hah! It took me three reads through to realize that you weren't just misspelling the man's name. As it is, I think you made one hilarious homonymic pun. Great Handle! - Brock
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
post was edited to add edgar and the crime dog to my ballot, forgot them, at first
Newcomers:
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Holdovers:
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Andre Dawson
I'm counting 10 there
No problem, Don. BTW, glad that you're participating. :-)
Same here.
bert blyleven
barry larkin
edgar martinez
mark mcgwire
tim raines
alan trammell
Andre Dawson
Just Missed
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Dale Murphy
Lee Smith
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin*
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Trammell
Therefore McGriff, Dawson, and Martinez get votes even though they are HOF greatness (either by quality or duration) is less than the others on my list.
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Fred McGriff
Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Robin Ventura
(Dale Murphy's the one who got left out, BTW.)
2. Bert Blyleven - Will get in for real this year too I think
3. Mark McGwire - I don't care about steroids because I believe everyone used things, at least amphetamines, that are now banned by baseball. It's not my job to guess or police who did or didn't use. I would have no problem with the Hall of Fame/Merit acknowledging the flaws of players on their plaques (Bonds/Clemens/etc = roids, Jackson = took money, Rose = gambled, etc - but all should be in the hall for the merits of their career).
4. Edgar Martinez - The DH has been around for nearly 40 years, it is time to accept the reality of it.
5. Barry Larkin - One of the finest SS of my lifetime
6. Tim Raines - Didn't realize just how great he was until digging into the numbers
7. Andre Dawson - Not much to say here
8. Don Mattingly - I believe peak years are important and there's a case to be made that Mattingly was one of, if not the, best player in baseball from '84-'89 - particularly from '84-'87.
9. Alan Trammell - Not better than Larkin, but one of the finest SS of the last 25 years
If I could write-in a name, I would be including David Cone who was painfully overlooked on the BBWAA ballots.
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Fred McGriff
Edgar Martinez
Roberto Alomar
Harold Baines
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
In particular, did you seriously look at Larkin and Trammell?
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Trammell
Your ballot is basically mine + McGriff. I think Appier is more deserving than McGriff - contributed more value to his teams.
I really don't get a ballot with Alomar and without Trammell and Larkin.
(But no, Don Malcolm, we won't actually count your vote for Orosco. He's not on the BBWAA's list.)
As for criticism: if you post a ballot, you could be criticized. It's always been that way, although we prefer not to interrupt the flow of ballot threads with extended back-and-forth arguments that could go on the discussion thread.
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
Raines
Trammell
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
Raines
Trammell
Another great mind with a perfect ballot. 6 for 6.
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
McGriff
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Trammell
Alomar
Raines
I don't know what to do with McGwire and am letting more of his peers come on the ballot and more time pass to let my thoughts percolate.
Quitting on a team mid season is a pretty big negative to me. Blyleven's role in the unraveling of the We Are Family Pirates is glossed over too easily.
I treat DH's as bad fielding 1Bs. That puts Martinez pretty much in a group and frequently behind peers or near peers like Thomas, Bagwell, Palmeiro, McGriff, Clark, McGwire, Helton, Thome, Giambi, and Delgado. I have a hard time believing that all should be in Cooperstown and don't see Martinez distancing himself from that pack.
I wish I could vote for Dale Murphy, but don't think his character is enough to overcome the briefness of his greatness.
I don't know about most of the others, but since when were Palmeiro and Clark "bad fielding" first basemen?
Sorry, poorly worded post. I meant that after reducing Martinez's overall value because of his own lack of defensive value, he no longer is noticibly better than any of those players I listed and is demonstrably worse than some. It was not intended to be a comment on the defense of Clark, etc.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff (crosses over the line because I'm a Blue Jays fan)
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Posting tallies while the election is in progress could be construed as a way to mobilize prospective voters to either vote for a candidate on the cusp or to derail another player's candidacy who happens to be momentarily in line for induction (not that was Don's intent, mind you). To my mind, this is not the same as debating a candidate's merits or ballot placement.
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Dale Murphy
Bert Blyleven
Lee Smith
Roberto Alomar
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Edgar Martinez
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
May everybody and their close ones have a wonderful and safe new year.
Harold Baines
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Same to you!
roberto alomar
kevin appier
bert blyleven
andre dawson
barry larkin
jack morris
dale murphy
tim raines
lee smith
alan trammell
appier gets my vote since i'm a believer in recognizing greatness, even if it's only realized over the first 9 seasons of a career. morris gets my vote by a different corollary; anyone who can be that durable and productive over that long a period of time also deserves recognition. lee smith gets the same treatment.
dawson and trammell get my vote for being productive hitters over a long period of time, while also providing plus defense at premium positions.
blylevin, alomar, raines, trammell, and larkin go in for brownie points in the groupthink competition
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Andrés Galarraga
Barry Larkin
Don Mattingly
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Galarraga: 1B, 8916 PA, OPS+ 118, SLG-heavy.
McGriff: 1B, 10174 PA, OPS+ 134. Career OPB of .377 to .347 for Galarraga.
Will Clark: 1B, 8283 PA, OPS+ 137, OBP-strong. But he's not eligible.
Not to mention McGwire ...
I can't see a vote for Galarraga over McGriff myself. The Crime Dog wins in a KO.
I'll say this, while I think -- objectively -- Smith is more worthy than Dawson for the HoF; subjectively, if the tally showed Smith was going to gain entrance by one vote, while Dawson fell short by one vote --- I would change my ballot because I like Dawson a lot more than Smith.
On a side note for the HoMers...
I wish there was some sort of junior membership available (1/2 pt per vote or something)... I'm aware of the provisional ballot for first timers and have no problem explaining my ballot, but my Negro League and 19th century knowledge is superficial and my system would be somewhat hackneyed. I've thought about jumping in several times, especially once you got into post-WWII players,
zonk, you have almost a full year to go through the old threads, so I expect to see you voting for the 2011 election. :-)
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Andre Dawson
*Andre Dawson
*Don Mattingly
*Mark McGwire
*Dale Murphy
*Dave Parker
*Jack Morris
*Fred McGriff
Baines is a quirky choice, but my system: (1) rewards career length but does not penalize lack of in-season durability;
(2) does not penalize DHs for lack of defense;
(3) effectively gives credit for time lost to strikes.
McGriff and Parker within the margin of error of making a 10-man ballot.
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
E. Martinez
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Baines
Dawson
Ventura
Yes, Roberto Alomar, Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez.
A vote for Harold Baines because early in his career he became a guy I just chose to follow. To me he was "my man, Harold Baines".
I'm really on the fence with Blyleven, Mark McGuire, Lee Smith, Fred McGriff, Andre Dawson, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.
I just see too many games missed by Barry Larkin to give him my vote. Only 4 seasons with 150+ games. He had 10 sub-130 game seasons, including 4 sub-100 games. And only 1 time did he have back-to-back 140+ game seasons.
Edgar Martinez gets my vote. If you are going to vote in closers, then you have to give due concideration to players who were primarily DH.
If you blow up the 1994 and 1995 seasons to 162 games to reflect the lost games from the strike Larkin projects to 155 and 147 games those years (he played 110 of the Reds' 114 games in 1994, 131/144 in 1995). He's no Cal Ripken, certainly, but if you do that adjustment he played the equivalent of 145/162 games (which rounds to 90% of a team's games) 8 times, including 3 in a row from 1994-96.
Alomar
Larkin
Dawson
Trammell
Murphy
Blyleven
Raines
Ventura
McGwire
As I recall you are an extreme peak voter.
Focusing on peak almost exclusively opens the door to so many players that played at a no doubt HOF level but fall short on career numbers (guys like Gooden and Saberhagen, Albert Belle, Jason Giambi, Juan Gonzalez, Andruw Jones) that it seems one would have to entirely recalibrate the standards of what HOF level peak play is.
Ventura, for example, certainly had a number of seasons that were of HOF caliber - according to the current standards that voters have more or less settled on. But if I open the door for all these other guys, maybe my standard for peak performance raises, and Ventura falls below it.
Just wondering if you've given thought to this.
I thought he was just groupthinking.
That's my take, too.
HERE IS WHO SHOULD BE IN BASED ON MERIT
NEW CANDIDATES
1. ALOMAR (TOP TEN 2B OF ALL TIME)
2. LARKN (TOP TEN SS OF ALL TIME)
3. MARTINEZ(2ND BEST DH BEHIND F. THOMAS)
4. MCGIFF(STERIOD FREE 1B SLUGGER)
HOLOVERS
1.DAWSON(2700 H,400 HRS, 300 SB, 8 GOLDEN G)
2. BLYLEVEN(KO AND SO ARE AWESOME)
3. RAINES(2ND BEST LEADOFF MAN BEHIND RICKEY)
4. TRAMMELL(TOP TEN SS OF ALL TIME)
5. SMITH(TOP TEN CLOSER OF ALL TIME
6.MORRIS(DOMINANT PITCHERS OF 1980S)
PREDICTION: ALOMAR AND DAWSON GET IN FOR 2010.
BLYLEVEN AND LARKIN FOR 2011
RAINES AND TRAMMELL IN 2012
02. Bert Blyleven
03. Barry Larkin
04. Edgar Martinez
05. Don Mattingly
06. Mark McGwire
07. Fred McGriff
08. Lee Smith
09. Tim Raines
10. Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Just as the HoM has no career milestone requirements, allowing voters to choose where they fall on the peak/career spectrum, the HoF has no minimum or maximum numerical requirement, allowing voters to choose where they fall on the small hall/large hall spectrum. This means that voters get to choose not only the qualities of a ballplayer befitting the hall but also the minimum standards of those qualities required to be enshrined. I tend to fall a little more toward the small end of the hall spectrum compared to some around here (certainly not all, though, as we've seen), and I consider McGwire & Alomar to be around the borderline for my PHoF statistically.
Both players are tricky candidates. McGwire's candidacy, with his fairly short career, relies upon his peak value, the bulk of which is in his princely TTO numbers. While it's enough to pass the in/out line for my PHoF, the shadow of PEDs cast doubt on the true value he alone produced, particularly considering his candidacy's dependence upon the TTO stats. Roberto Alomar, OTOH, falls just below my personal in/out line; however, his statistical record is at odds with his defensive reputation. Considering that defensive stats are still not definitive, there's the possibility that Alomar's performance is better than the mediocrity the records suggest and some weight could be given to his reputation, which would push his candidacy over the line for me.
The vote for Edgar Martinez is a bit of a bone thrown his way. Since it is perfectly acceptable to do the same among BBWAA writers I feel completely justified in doing it here. I've been a Mariners fan since I was 8 years old. One of my first baseball memories is of Edgar Martinez winning the batting title in '92, one of two memorable events in an otherwise forgettable season (yeah, I know, I'm young). I remember wondering how close he could get to the single-season doubles record in the mid-nineties, and, of course, the '95 ALDS. I also recall learning about statistical prowess beyond the consistent .300+ averages (including 2 batting titles) and the consecutive 50+ 2B seasons; that from '95 to '01 Martinez hit for a 150 *OPS+ or better every year--seven consecutive times--averaging 163 *OPS+. While the majority of my HoM/HoF voting has been fairly objective, I don't think that there is anything wrong with subjective influences since it is a major part of everyone's enjoyment of the game, and if applied very judiciously I have no problems with it in HoF voting. I do think that Martinez is a borderline candidate for large hall voters, one of the top 250 in baseball history, and I'm curious to see how his BBTF vote turns out considering the long debates it's inspired since his retirement.
At times I considering voting for just the top 4 players on my ballot, at others I considered including any combination of the 3 below them; however, in the end I decided to vote for them all. After all, it's not as if my vote means anything outside this little website. Too bad I missed the chance to throw Dave Fleming a vote. . . .
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
and no to Lee Smith...he's a tough call
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
McGwire
Raines
Alomar
Larkin
Blyleven
Trammell
Martinez
Dawson (those eight are in the Hall of Merit, including three elected this year)
Murphy
McGriff
YES I LOVE THOSE CAPITAL LETTERS! LOL!
I AGREE WITH YOU ON ALOMAR,LARKIN, AND TRAMMEL!
YOU DEFINITELY KNOW YOUR MIDDLE INFIELDERS BROTHER!
EXPLAIN TO ME YOUR LOVE OF APPIER. ESPEICALLY OVER THE CRIME DROG MCGRIFF!
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Blyleven
Trammell
Raines
Dawson
Mcgriff
Ventura
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Very interesting innovative thinking on Starting Pitchers in the HoF.
Using your logic teams also have more than one Relief Pitcher.
Do you think think there should be more relivers in the HofF. If so what made you not vote for LEE SMITH in your #21 posting. Do you think LEE SMITH was as dominant as FINGERS,ECK,SUTTER and GOSSAGE?
Teams have several relievers but only one closer.
I hear you when it comes to FINGERS being the worst of the bunch.
I think with SUTTER people got caught up in his persona and mythology and not the numbers. HOFFMAN and RIVERIA definitely will and should get in. Rivera is a first ballot Hall of Famer!
Back to your starting pitcher logic. What about our boy JACK MORRIS. People here in DETROIT never understand why the so called "Best Pitcher in the 80s" does get any love.
Since you are from MINNESOTA you know how dominant a pitcher he was. You know what he did for your Twins in Game 7 of the 1991 WS. Why no JACK MORRIS on your ballot?
Blyleven
Larkin
Raines
Yes, he was quite dominant in that one game. You know, Jim Abbott once had a really great game too. David Wells. David Cone. Anibal Sanchez. Don Larsen.
Are they all Hall of Famers too?
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
I had not thought of that. On quick consideration I'm not sure how you would take that into consideration since if you did you would be forced to become a small hall guy.
If peak voters did as you suggested the result would be that their personal standards would be raised while the standards of career voters remained the same resulting in the ironic result of a hall of fame (or merit) even more tilted to the career length bias.
I don't really consider myself a peak guy as much as an essence guy. I want to know who that player was and I don't need a 20 year career to find out (unless a 20 year career guy is who he is).
My thoughts on Ventura is that he was a good hitter and a great defensive player. I see that as a hall of fame player any way you cut it. The fact that he was that player for "only" ten years doesn't mean anything. Most here consider Tim Raines a slam dunk candidate but I'm not sure why. He was a better hitter at a premium position with only average defense. He has fewer hall of fame quality seasons than Ventura and was only a slightly better player. The last decade of his career is irrelevant.
At the risk of over-valuing my own debate skills, I think that posts #27 and #31 of this thread lay out the case pretty well (those specific posts compare him with Kirby Puckett, but I think they work fine for laying out Tim Raines's HOF case for "an essence guy"). Short version, relative to Robin Ventura: I think you're under-rating how much better a hitter Raines was than Ventura and you're missing that he was a truly elite baserunner.
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