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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, December 21, 2009

2010 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots - if you don’t feel he really is a HOFer, then please refrain from posting that player’s name (examples of whom I am referring to are Mookie Wilson, Scott Broscius, Buddy Biancalana - players who were well liked or were underdogs, but have no creditable HOF resume). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end Jan 4 (8 PM EDT). Results will be posted at the same time.

Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.+
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

The eligible candidates are: Roberto Alomar*, Kevin Appier*, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Ellis Burks*, Andre Dawson, Andres Galarraga*, Pat Hentgen*, Mike Jackson*, Eric Karros*, Ray Lankford*, Barry Larkin*, Edgar Martinez*, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Fred McGriff*, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Shane Reynolds*, David Segui*, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Robin Ventura*, and Todd Zeile*.

* 1st-year candidates

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 21, 2009 at 08:48 PM | 256 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 24, 2009 at 09:41 PM (#3421917)
Can someone tell me how you delete messages?


Change your name to "Dan Szymborski"?
   102. sunnyday2 Posted: December 25, 2009 at 01:28 AM (#3421981)
I meant that McGriff IS a slippery slope. There's an awful lot of good 1B out there. If McGriff, then Boog Powell, e.g. And Steve Garvey has a good claim to have been the best 1B for a stretch of years, too.
   103. Mike Webber Posted: December 25, 2009 at 02:33 AM (#3421994)
Okay Hall of Famers, line up alphabetically by height.

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell


McGriff and Morris were just off my ballot. Then Appier, I wanted to vote for Appier but not before Morris.
   104. evanecurb Posted: December 25, 2009 at 03:39 AM (#3422005)
Alomar
Larkin
McGwire
McGriff
Raines
Blyleven
Trammell
Smith
Matinez
   105. DCA Posted: December 25, 2009 at 04:14 AM (#3422007)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   106. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: December 25, 2009 at 04:38 AM (#3422015)
My understanding is that anyone can post these? If I'm wrong, please discard.

Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Roberto Alomar [missed him! Whoops!]
Tim Raines

Dawson and Martinez are borderline for me - Dawson because of his hitting numbers, Martinez because of my irrational hatred of the DH/my DH penalty. As much as my Cub-fan self would like to include Dawson, I'm not sure that I do. I'm also wary of Lee Smith, because I believe that relievers ought to be treated like anyone else, and Smith stacks up favorably against other relievers around/in the Hall (or who will be, since I also believe that relievers in the Hall is inevitable, but I think it's a good thing), but, as with Dawson, I err on the side of caution. I'd be happy with a Hall with Martinez/Dawson/Smith, but it's probably not my Hall. And, yeah, it's the HoF I'm voting for, not my Personal HoF, but I like to have my votes for the former match up with the latter. Just my choice.

(I understand no explanation is required, but I figured I'd have a bit)
   107. OCF Posted: December 25, 2009 at 04:47 AM (#3422019)
Arjun, anyone can vote and no explanation is required. But since his name doesn't appear in you paragraph of explanation, I'll ask whether you considered and rejected Alomar or whether your omission of him was an oversight.
   108. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: December 25, 2009 at 04:49 AM (#3422020)
Oh, oops, that's a mistake; meant to put him in. I initially did it alphabetically by last name and then changed it to first name and misplaced him. Sorry. Yeah. That's just a typo on my part; I certainly think he's a HoFer.
   109. OCF Posted: December 25, 2009 at 04:51 AM (#3422021)
OK, amended vote accepted, Arjun voted for 6 players, including Alomar.
   110. bjhanke Posted: December 25, 2009 at 10:11 AM (#3422039)
Just as a note, my thanks to whoever posted up the more thorough header guidelines that, among other things, ban vote tallies. If Don hadn't put his up, I was about a day from doing one myself, just to get a preliminary count and a general idea of the consensus. I do understand the reasoning behind not wanting to have the tallies descend into campaigning, so the ban doesn't upset me. My guess is that it doesn't bother Don either, although it does keep him from "campaigning" for Jesse Orosco.

Also, just to ask, was my vote for Ray Lankford, along with the explanation, a violation of the guidelines? I read the first paragraph over and it seems like I may have done something wrong there. If so, I apologize and won't do it again. Well, not intentionally, he says, remembering Tim Keefe and Amos Rusie. - Brock
   111. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 25, 2009 at 12:33 PM (#3422048)
Just as a note, my thanks to whoever posted up the more thorough header guidelines that, among other things, ban vote tallies.


That was me, Brock.

My guess is that it doesn't bother Don either, although it does keep him from "campaigning" for Jesse Orosco.


Since he's not eligible, his "candidacy" is a moot point anyway. :-)

Also, just to ask, was my vote for Ray Lankford, along with the explanation, a violation of the guidelines? I read the first paragraph over and it seems like I may have done something wrong there. If so, I apologize and won't do it again. Well, not intentionally, he says, remembering Tim Keefe and Amos Rusie. - Brock


You can vote for whomever you want without explanations. For these special election, we're not as rigid as we are with the HoM elections. This should be viewed more as a fun exercise (not that our normal HoM elections are not fun, of course, but our credibility as a voting bloc is on the line there).

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holidays and all that jazz, guys (and Lisa :-D)!
   112. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 25, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3422049)
Can someone tell me how you delete messages?


Don't worry about it, Pretoric. It's no biggie.
   113. rawagman Posted: December 25, 2009 at 09:30 PM (#3422170)
My HOF Ballot for 2010:
Newcomers:
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff

Holdovers:
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Andre Dawson

I am a big-hall guy. Dawson is borderline, but enough to make my concept of the Hall of Fame. Mattingley isn't too far back.
   114. Don Malcolm Posted: December 25, 2009 at 10:54 PM (#3422179)
Sorry, gents, will refrain from posting such results in the future. No "electioneering" intended whatsoever, just got intrigued by the "tiering" that seemed to be evolving in the vote. It is definitely a good idea to post such a request explicitly, but looking back at earlier threads I should have been able to see that such wasn't occurring then and taken a cue from that.
   115. CrosbyBird Posted: December 25, 2009 at 11:43 PM (#3422184)
Alphabetical order.

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   116. Ziggy Posted: December 26, 2009 at 01:09 AM (#3422202)
Alomar
Larkin
Raines
Trammell
Blyleven
McGriff
Martinez
McGwire
   117. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: December 26, 2009 at 04:43 AM (#3422238)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
E. Martinez
Raines
Trammell
   118. bjhanke Posted: December 26, 2009 at 05:01 AM (#3422241)
"Rafael Bellylard has become a Mets fan!"

Hah! It took me three reads through to realize that you weren't just misspelling the man's name. As it is, I think you made one hilarious homonymic pun. Great Handle! - Brock
   119. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: December 26, 2009 at 06:03 AM (#3422255)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff

post was edited to add edgar and the crime dog to my ballot, forgot them, at first
   120. John DiFool2 Posted: December 26, 2009 at 02:30 PM (#3422283)
rawagman, you've listed 11 candidates.
   121. rawagman Posted: December 26, 2009 at 02:43 PM (#3422285)
rawagman, you've listed 11 candidates.


Newcomers:
Barry Larkin
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff

Holdovers:
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Dale Murphy
Andre Dawson

I'm counting 10 there
   122. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 26, 2009 at 11:37 PM (#3422520)
Sorry, gents, will refrain from posting such results in the future. No "electioneering" intended whatsoever, just got intrigued by the "tiering" that seemed to be evolving in the vote. It is definitely a good idea to post such a request explicitly, but looking back at earlier threads I should have been able to see that such wasn't occurring then and taken a cue from that.


No problem, Don. BTW, glad that you're participating. :-)
   123. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 26, 2009 at 11:47 PM (#3422523)
I'm counting 10 there


Same here.
   124. lieiam Posted: December 27, 2009 at 07:23 PM (#3422818)
roberto alomar
bert blyleven
barry larkin
edgar martinez
mark mcgwire
tim raines
alan trammell
   125. Carl Gonzales Posted: December 27, 2009 at 08:19 PM (#3422847)
Roberto Alomar
Andre Dawson

Just Missed
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Dale Murphy
Lee Smith
   126. OCF Posted: December 27, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3422853)
We have a winner in the "most eccentric ballot" sweepstakes. And we have no more unanimity. Carl Gonzales and Harveys Wallbangers might want to have a chat about a few issues.
   127. Eugene Freedman Posted: December 28, 2009 at 01:31 AM (#3422993)
Roberto Alomar
Kevin Appier
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin*
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   128. pegleg Posted: December 28, 2009 at 06:16 PM (#3423334)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   129. Andrew M Posted: December 28, 2009 at 06:59 PM (#3423374)
Alomar
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Trammell
   130. Eugene Freedman Posted: December 28, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3423394)
I know this isn't HOM, but I feel the need to justify one of my votes b/c it is a bit out there. We are using BBWAA voting standards and those boneheads always vote for their favorite player from a certain era. Well, my favorite pitcher of the 90s was Kevin Appier and therefore I've thrown a vote his way, knowing full well that he won't get 5% of the true ballot or any reasonable sampling here. Many of my other votes are consensus picks and the others are all "big Hall" type votes. I can't accept that there were so many HOFers during the bygone eras in baseball and so few during my lifetime.

Therefore McGriff, Dawson, and Martinez get votes even though they are HOF greatness (either by quality or duration) is less than the others on my list.
   131. JPWF13 Posted: December 28, 2009 at 07:27 PM (#3423402)
Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Fred McGriff
Andre Dawson
   132. tribescribe Posted: December 28, 2009 at 08:10 PM (#3423433)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   133. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 28, 2009 at 08:57 PM (#3423465)
I'm a "Vote for 10, because it's better to elect someone slightly off than nobody" guy. I wouldn't have voted for Jim Rice, but I'm not unhappy he's in. But this year I have a bit of a dilemma - there's someone I'd really like to vote for, but I actually have 10 people ranked ahead of him. I've certainly "voted" for worse candidates in the past. However, he almost certainly won't be on the ballot next year. Ultimately, I decided that if I had an actual BBWAA ballot, I'd vote for him this year even though he's #11.

Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Robin Ventura

(Dale Murphy's the one who got left out, BTW.)
   134. Brett "The Hitman" Gardner Posted: December 28, 2009 at 09:28 PM (#3423502)
1. Roberto Alomar - Best to forget those Met years...
2. Bert Blyleven - Will get in for real this year too I think
3. Mark McGwire - I don't care about steroids because I believe everyone used things, at least amphetamines, that are now banned by baseball. It's not my job to guess or police who did or didn't use. I would have no problem with the Hall of Fame/Merit acknowledging the flaws of players on their plaques (Bonds/Clemens/etc = roids, Jackson = took money, Rose = gambled, etc - but all should be in the hall for the merits of their career).
4. Edgar Martinez - The DH has been around for nearly 40 years, it is time to accept the reality of it.
5. Barry Larkin - One of the finest SS of my lifetime
6. Tim Raines - Didn't realize just how great he was until digging into the numbers
7. Andre Dawson - Not much to say here
8. Don Mattingly - I believe peak years are important and there's a case to be made that Mattingly was one of, if not the, best player in baseball from '84-'89 - particularly from '84-'87.
9. Alan Trammell - Not better than Larkin, but one of the finest SS of the last 25 years

If I could write-in a name, I would be including David Cone who was painfully overlooked on the BBWAA ballots.
   135. Repoz Posted: December 28, 2009 at 09:38 PM (#3423512)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Fred McGriff
Edgar Martinez
   136. JosephFinn Posted: December 28, 2009 at 10:40 PM (#3423574)
I guess I'm a large Hall guy. All of these people, by the numbers, I believe to be deserving. (Mark McGwire was disqualified from my ballot.)

Roberto Alomar
Harold Baines
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
   137. OCF Posted: December 28, 2009 at 10:53 PM (#3423579)
JosephFinn: why do you hate shortstops?

In particular, did you seriously look at Larkin and Trammell?
   138. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 28, 2009 at 11:25 PM (#3423590)
100 ballots already, which is 6 more than last year. One more week still!
   139. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 28, 2009 at 11:29 PM (#3423591)
Alomar
Blyleven
Dawson
Larkin
Martinez
McGriff
McGwire
Murphy
Raines
Trammell
   140. OCF Posted: December 28, 2009 at 11:38 PM (#3423594)
That 100 (now 101) ballots already exceed last year's total, which was 94. We don't have quite as many regular HoM voters yet as we did last year.
   141. DL from MN Posted: December 29, 2009 at 12:24 AM (#3423607)
justify one of my votes b/c it is a bit out there


Your ballot is basically mine + McGriff. I think Appier is more deserving than McGriff - contributed more value to his teams.

I really don't get a ballot with Alomar and without Trammell and Larkin.
   142. OCF Posted: December 29, 2009 at 01:16 AM (#3423618)
It seems that the people who feel the need to explain (like Eugene Freedman, whom DL from MN just replied to) or who call attention to maybe doing something a little differently (like Ray DiPerna commenting on voting for McGriff but not Martinez) are in fact voters who have reasonable amounts of company and who aren't doing things all that differently. Whereas we get no explanations for whoppers like leaving off Larkin.

(But no, Don Malcolm, we won't actually count your vote for Orosco. He's not on the BBWAA's list.)
   143. Fridas Boss Posted: December 29, 2009 at 01:32 AM (#3423623)
Honest and curious question: How are ballot tallies "electioneering" but complaining about or pointedly criticizing people's ballots is not?
   144. OCF Posted: December 29, 2009 at 01:43 AM (#3423625)
I'm not sure that "electioneering" is the term I would use - after all, we have a discussion thread, and it's still open. No posting of tallies is more of a tradition. We'd prefer not to trumpet the specific information that player A is ahead of player B by so many points, or player C is just above or just below an in-out line - even though that information is available to anyone who wants to go to the trouble of counting.

As for criticism: if you post a ballot, you could be criticized. It's always been that way, although we prefer not to interrupt the flow of ballot threads with extended back-and-forth arguments that could go on the discussion thread.
   145. Wes Parkers Mood (Mike Green) Posted: December 29, 2009 at 02:43 AM (#3423640)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
Raines
Trammell
   146. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 29, 2009 at 02:54 AM (#3423642)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
Raines
Trammell


Another great mind with a perfect ballot. 6 for 6.
   147. Baldrick Posted: December 29, 2009 at 03:27 AM (#3423650)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
McGriff
Raines
Trammell
   148. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: December 29, 2009 at 03:29 AM (#3423651)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   149. dlf Posted: December 29, 2009 at 03:41 AM (#3423653)
Larkin
Trammell
Alomar
Raines

I don't know what to do with McGwire and am letting more of his peers come on the ballot and more time pass to let my thoughts percolate.

Quitting on a team mid season is a pretty big negative to me. Blyleven's role in the unraveling of the We Are Family Pirates is glossed over too easily.

I treat DH's as bad fielding 1Bs. That puts Martinez pretty much in a group and frequently behind peers or near peers like Thomas, Bagwell, Palmeiro, McGriff, Clark, McGwire, Helton, Thome, Giambi, and Delgado. I have a hard time believing that all should be in Cooperstown and don't see Martinez distancing himself from that pack.

I wish I could vote for Dale Murphy, but don't think his character is enough to overcome the briefness of his greatness.
   150. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 29, 2009 at 03:47 AM (#3423655)
I treat DH's as bad fielding 1Bs. That puts Martinez pretty much in a group and frequently behind peers or near peers like Thomas, Bagwell, Palmeiro, McGriff, Clark, McGwire, Helton, Thome, Giambi, and Delgado. I have a hard time believing that all should be in Cooperstown and don't see Martinez distancing himself from that pack.

I don't know about most of the others, but since when were Palmeiro and Clark "bad fielding" first basemen?
   151. dlf Posted: December 29, 2009 at 04:00 AM (#3423658)
I don't know about most of the others, but since when were Palmeiro and Clark "bad fielding" first basemen?


Sorry, poorly worded post. I meant that after reducing Martinez's overall value because of his own lack of defensive value, he no longer is noticibly better than any of those players I listed and is demonstrably worse than some. It was not intended to be a comment on the defense of Clark, etc.
   152. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 29, 2009 at 04:05 AM (#3423660)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   153. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 29, 2009 at 04:06 AM (#3423661)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff (crosses over the line because I'm a Blue Jays fan)
   154. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 29, 2009 at 05:42 AM (#3423692)
Just an explanation, #143 is somebody I know on Twitter who I mentioned the voting to, so he's probably not familiar with the general HoM standards. But I'll try to get him to come back tomorrow to respond.
   155. Joe Willie Mammoth Posted: December 29, 2009 at 07:38 AM (#3423707)
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   156. JoeC Posted: December 29, 2009 at 11:35 AM (#3423719)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   157. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 29, 2009 at 12:54 PM (#3423725)
Honest and curious question: How are ballot tallies "electioneering" but complaining about or pointedly criticizing people's ballots is not?


Posting tallies while the election is in progress could be construed as a way to mobilize prospective voters to either vote for a candidate on the cusp or to derail another player's candidacy who happens to be momentarily in line for induction (not that was Don's intent, mind you). To my mind, this is not the same as debating a candidate's merits or ballot placement.
   158. shipaaao19 Posted: December 29, 2009 at 09:19 PM (#3424157)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
   159. darkbruin89 Posted: December 29, 2009 at 09:35 PM (#3424178)
Good afternoon, folks. Here are my votes, and in this era of taking responsibility for one's actions, I am listing these ten in order of who I believe are most hallworthy to tenth-most hallworthy.

Tim Raines
Dale Murphy
Bert Blyleven
Lee Smith
Roberto Alomar
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Edgar Martinez
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell

May everybody and their close ones have a wonderful and safe new year.
   160. CraigK Posted: December 29, 2009 at 10:37 PM (#3424221)
Roberto Alomar
Harold Baines
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   161. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 30, 2009 at 12:26 AM (#3424299)
May everybody and their close ones have a wonderful and safe new year.


Same to you!
   162. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: December 30, 2009 at 12:56 AM (#3424327)
my first HoM vote of any kind:

roberto alomar
kevin appier
bert blyleven
andre dawson
barry larkin
jack morris
dale murphy
tim raines
lee smith
alan trammell



appier gets my vote since i'm a believer in recognizing greatness, even if it's only realized over the first 9 seasons of a career. morris gets my vote by a different corollary; anyone who can be that durable and productive over that long a period of time also deserves recognition. lee smith gets the same treatment.

dawson and trammell get my vote for being productive hitters over a long period of time, while also providing plus defense at premium positions.


blylevin, alomar, raines, trammell, and larkin go in for brownie points in the groupthink competition
   163. Walter Posted: December 30, 2009 at 05:15 AM (#3424480)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Andrés Galarraga
Barry Larkin
Don Mattingly
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
   164. OCF Posted: December 30, 2009 at 05:34 AM (#3424487)
Yikes! This late in the balloting and you had to make me put in a new column. (Checking list printed at the top of this thread: Yes, Galarraga is eligible.)

Galarraga: 1B, 8916 PA, OPS+ 118, SLG-heavy.
McGriff: 1B, 10174 PA, OPS+ 134. Career OPB of .377 to .347 for Galarraga.
Will Clark: 1B, 8283 PA, OPS+ 137, OBP-strong. But he's not eligible.

Not to mention McGwire ...
   165. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 30, 2009 at 01:42 PM (#3424589)
Galarraga: 1B, 8916 PA, OPS+ 118, SLG-heavy.
McGriff: 1B, 10174 PA, OPS+ 134. Career OPB of .377 to .347 for Galarraga.


I can't see a vote for Galarraga over McGriff myself. The Crime Dog wins in a KO.
   166. zonk Posted: December 30, 2009 at 02:38 PM (#3424622)
I'm not sure that "electioneering" is the term I would use - after all, we have a discussion thread, and it's still open. No posting of tallies is more of a tradition. We'd prefer not to trumpet the specific information that player A is ahead of player B by so many points, or player C is just above or just below an in-out line - even though that information is available to anyone who wants to go to the trouble of counting.


I'll say this, while I think -- objectively -- Smith is more worthy than Dawson for the HoF; subjectively, if the tally showed Smith was going to gain entrance by one vote, while Dawson fell short by one vote --- I would change my ballot because I like Dawson a lot more than Smith.

On a side note for the HoMers...

I wish there was some sort of junior membership available (1/2 pt per vote or something)... I'm aware of the provisional ballot for first timers and have no problem explaining my ballot, but my Negro League and 19th century knowledge is superficial and my system would be somewhat hackneyed. I've thought about jumping in several times, especially once you got into post-WWII players,
   167. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 30, 2009 at 03:03 PM (#3424637)
On a side note for the HoMers...

I wish there was some sort of junior membership available (1/2 pt per vote or something)... I'm aware of the provisional ballot for first timers and have no problem explaining my ballot, but my Negro League and 19th century knowledge is superficial and my system would be somewhat hackneyed. I've thought about jumping in several times, especially once you got into post-WWII players,


zonk, you have almost a full year to go through the old threads, so I expect to see you voting for the 2011 election. :-)
   168. Jon T. Posted: December 30, 2009 at 03:12 PM (#3424646)
I'd go with these 8

Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Andre Dawson
   169. SchadeTree Posted: December 30, 2009 at 03:27 PM (#3424659)
*Roberto Alomar
*Andre Dawson
*Don Mattingly
*Mark McGwire
*Dale Murphy
*Dave Parker
*Jack Morris
*Fred McGriff
   170. EricC Posted: December 30, 2009 at 09:13 PM (#3425022)
My ballot (N=10). Top 7 and next 3 each in alphabetical order. Bottom 3 are marginal, but I'm a big Hall type.
Baines is a quirky choice, but my system: (1) rewards career length but does not penalize lack of in-season durability;
(2) does not penalize DHs for lack of defense;
(3) effectively gives credit for time lost to strikes.
McGriff and Parker within the margin of error of making a 10-man ballot.

Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
E. Martinez
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
Baines
Dawson
Ventura
   171. abtrube Posted: December 31, 2009 at 01:36 AM (#3425148)
I'm still working on my list.

Yes, Roberto Alomar, Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez.

A vote for Harold Baines because early in his career he became a guy I just chose to follow. To me he was "my man, Harold Baines".

I'm really on the fence with Blyleven, Mark McGuire, Lee Smith, Fred McGriff, Andre Dawson, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.

I just see too many games missed by Barry Larkin to give him my vote. Only 4 seasons with 150+ games. He had 10 sub-130 game seasons, including 4 sub-100 games. And only 1 time did he have back-to-back 140+ game seasons.

Edgar Martinez gets my vote. If you are going to vote in closers, then you have to give due concideration to players who were primarily DH.
   172. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 31, 2009 at 01:46 AM (#3425151)
I just see too many games missed by Barry Larkin to give him my vote. Only 4 seasons with 150+ games. He had 10 sub-130 game seasons, including 4 sub-100 games. And only 1 time did he have back-to-back 140+ game seasons.


If you blow up the 1994 and 1995 seasons to 162 games to reflect the lost games from the strike Larkin projects to 155 and 147 games those years (he played 110 of the Reds' 114 games in 1994, 131/144 in 1995). He's no Cal Ripken, certainly, but if you do that adjustment he played the equivalent of 145/162 games (which rounds to 90% of a team's games) 8 times, including 3 in a row from 1994-96.
   173. Gaelan Posted: December 31, 2009 at 03:08 AM (#3425181)
In no particular order

Alomar
Larkin
Dawson
Trammell
Murphy
Blyleven
Raines
Ventura
McGwire
   174. PreservedFish Posted: December 31, 2009 at 03:21 AM (#3425187)
Gaelan, I am curious about your reasoning.

As I recall you are an extreme peak voter.

Focusing on peak almost exclusively opens the door to so many players that played at a no doubt HOF level but fall short on career numbers (guys like Gooden and Saberhagen, Albert Belle, Jason Giambi, Juan Gonzalez, Andruw Jones) that it seems one would have to entirely recalibrate the standards of what HOF level peak play is.

Ventura, for example, certainly had a number of seasons that were of HOF caliber - according to the current standards that voters have more or less settled on. But if I open the door for all these other guys, maybe my standard for peak performance raises, and Ventura falls below it.

Just wondering if you've given thought to this.
   175. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 31, 2009 at 03:37 AM (#3425194)
Gaelan, I am curious about your reasoning.


I thought he was just groupthinking.
   176. OCF Posted: December 31, 2009 at 03:40 AM (#3425197)
Just a note: I am interpreting post #178 as not being a ballot, and I am not counting it. If abtrube wishes to have a ballot counted, he'll need to make a post with that clear intent.
   177. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 31, 2009 at 01:11 PM (#3425324)
Just a note: I am interpreting post #178 as not being a ballot, and I am not counting it. If abtrube wishes to have a ballot counted, he'll need to make a post with that clear intent


That's my take, too.
   178. mastermind713 Posted: December 31, 2009 at 04:13 PM (#3425416)
I AM A HUGE HALL OF FAME FAN!
HERE IS WHO SHOULD BE IN BASED ON MERIT

NEW CANDIDATES
1. ALOMAR (TOP TEN 2B OF ALL TIME)
2. LARKN (TOP TEN SS OF ALL TIME)
3. MARTINEZ(2ND BEST DH BEHIND F. THOMAS)
4. MCGIFF(STERIOD FREE 1B SLUGGER)

HOLOVERS
1.DAWSON(2700 H,400 HRS, 300 SB, 8 GOLDEN G)
2. BLYLEVEN(KO AND SO ARE AWESOME)
3. RAINES(2ND BEST LEADOFF MAN BEHIND RICKEY)
4. TRAMMELL(TOP TEN SS OF ALL TIME)
5. SMITH(TOP TEN CLOSER OF ALL TIME
6.MORRIS(DOMINANT PITCHERS OF 1980S)

PREDICTION: ALOMAR AND DAWSON GET IN FOR 2010.
BLYLEVEN AND LARKIN FOR 2011
RAINES AND TRAMMELL IN 2012
   179. DL from MN Posted: December 31, 2009 at 04:33 PM (#3425432)
AND A HUGE FAN OF CAPITAL LETTERS
   180. RevBrian1973 Posted: December 31, 2009 at 06:31 PM (#3425528)
01. Roberto Alomar
02. Bert Blyleven
03. Barry Larkin
04. Edgar Martinez
05. Don Mattingly
06. Mark McGwire
07. Fred McGriff
08. Lee Smith
09. Tim Raines
10. Alan Trammell
   181. BDC Posted: December 31, 2009 at 07:02 PM (#3425564)
My ballot:

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
   182. adamadkins Posted: December 31, 2009 at 07:30 PM (#3425594)
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Mark McGwire
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
   183. Tiboreau Posted: December 31, 2009 at 08:28 PM (#3425656)
Barry Larkin
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven

Mark McGwire
Roberto Alomar

Edgar Martinez


Just as the HoM has no career milestone requirements, allowing voters to choose where they fall on the peak/career spectrum, the HoF has no minimum or maximum numerical requirement, allowing voters to choose where they fall on the small hall/large hall spectrum. This means that voters get to choose not only the qualities of a ballplayer befitting the hall but also the minimum standards of those qualities required to be enshrined. I tend to fall a little more toward the small end of the hall spectrum compared to some around here (certainly not all, though, as we've seen), and I consider McGwire & Alomar to be around the borderline for my PHoF statistically.

Both players are tricky candidates. McGwire's candidacy, with his fairly short career, relies upon his peak value, the bulk of which is in his princely TTO numbers. While it's enough to pass the in/out line for my PHoF, the shadow of PEDs cast doubt on the true value he alone produced, particularly considering his candidacy's dependence upon the TTO stats. Roberto Alomar, OTOH, falls just below my personal in/out line; however, his statistical record is at odds with his defensive reputation. Considering that defensive stats are still not definitive, there's the possibility that Alomar's performance is better than the mediocrity the records suggest and some weight could be given to his reputation, which would push his candidacy over the line for me.

The vote for Edgar Martinez is a bit of a bone thrown his way. Since it is perfectly acceptable to do the same among BBWAA writers I feel completely justified in doing it here. I've been a Mariners fan since I was 8 years old. One of my first baseball memories is of Edgar Martinez winning the batting title in '92, one of two memorable events in an otherwise forgettable season (yeah, I know, I'm young). I remember wondering how close he could get to the single-season doubles record in the mid-nineties, and, of course, the '95 ALDS. I also recall learning about statistical prowess beyond the consistent .300+ averages (including 2 batting titles) and the consecutive 50+ 2B seasons; that from '95 to '01 Martinez hit for a 150 *OPS+ or better every year--seven consecutive times--averaging 163 *OPS+. While the majority of my HoM/HoF voting has been fairly objective, I don't think that there is anything wrong with subjective influences since it is a major part of everyone's enjoyment of the game, and if applied very judiciously I have no problems with it in HoF voting. I do think that Martinez is a borderline candidate for large hall voters, one of the top 250 in baseball history, and I'm curious to see how his BBTF vote turns out considering the long debates it's inspired since his retirement.

At times I considering voting for just the top 4 players on my ballot, at others I considered including any combination of the 3 below them; however, in the end I decided to vote for them all. After all, it's not as if my vote means anything outside this little website. Too bad I missed the chance to throw Dave Fleming a vote. . . .
   184. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 31, 2009 at 09:57 PM (#3425708)
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGwire
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy

and no to Lee Smith...he's a tough call
   185. Rob_Wood Posted: December 31, 2009 at 10:41 PM (#3425730)
My 2010 HOF ballot:

Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
McGwire
Raines
Trammell
   186. Outdoor Miner Posted: December 31, 2009 at 10:55 PM (#3425734)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   187. Paul Wendt Posted: January 01, 2010 at 12:07 AM (#3425760)
I'm with Dan Greenia and Ryan Wagman

McGwire
Raines
Alomar
Larkin
Blyleven
Trammell
Martinez
Dawson (those eight are in the Hall of Merit, including three elected this year)
Murphy
McGriff
   188. mastermind713 Posted: January 01, 2010 at 12:44 AM (#3425773)
BROTHER DL FROM MN

YES I LOVE THOSE CAPITAL LETTERS! LOL!
I AGREE WITH YOU ON ALOMAR,LARKIN, AND TRAMMEL!
YOU DEFINITELY KNOW YOUR MIDDLE INFIELDERS BROTHER!

EXPLAIN TO ME YOUR LOVE OF APPIER. ESPEICALLY OVER THE CRIME DROG MCGRIFF!
   189. DL from MN Posted: January 01, 2010 at 03:08 AM (#3425811)
There is simply more need for pitching in baseball than I believe is recognized in HoF voting. There are _five_ starting pitchers compared to one starting first baseman. That's why the line is drawn at Appier for pitchers and ahead of McGriff at 1B.
   190. trtaylor6886 Posted: January 01, 2010 at 05:56 PM (#3425978)
Alomar
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Blyleven
Trammell
Raines
Dawson
Mcgriff
Ventura
   191. Good cripple hitter Posted: January 01, 2010 at 06:10 PM (#3425981)
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   192. mastermind713 Posted: January 02, 2010 at 02:56 PM (#3426203)
Brother DL from MN

Very interesting innovative thinking on Starting Pitchers in the HoF.

Using your logic teams also have more than one Relief Pitcher.
Do you think think there should be more relivers in the HofF. If so what made you not vote for LEE SMITH in your #21 posting. Do you think LEE SMITH was as dominant as FINGERS,ECK,SUTTER and GOSSAGE?
   193. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2010 at 03:22 PM (#3426211)
Lee Smith falls just short of Fingers, who is currently the worst reliever I would support. I think Sutter was a big mistake. I'd support Hoffman and Rivera; Billy Wagner is surprisingly close to the line.

Teams have several relievers but only one closer.
   194. mastermind713 Posted: January 02, 2010 at 03:33 PM (#3426216)
Brother DL from MN

I hear you when it comes to FINGERS being the worst of the bunch.
I think with SUTTER people got caught up in his persona and mythology and not the numbers. HOFFMAN and RIVERIA definitely will and should get in. Rivera is a first ballot Hall of Famer!

Back to your starting pitcher logic. What about our boy JACK MORRIS. People here in DETROIT never understand why the so called "Best Pitcher in the 80s" does get any love.
Since you are from MINNESOTA you know how dominant a pitcher he was. You know what he did for your Twins in Game 7 of the 1991 WS. Why no JACK MORRIS on your ballot?
   195. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2010 at 03:48 PM (#3426234)
If I voted for Jack Morris I'd have to vote for Mickey Lolich too. I can't support either. Morris wasn't as good as Dave Stieb or Bret Saberhagen or Orel Hershiser to name a few other 1980s pitchers. He isn't as good as David Wells but they seem very similar so it will be interesting to see if they get to go head to head.
   196. Buzzards Bay Posted: January 02, 2010 at 03:53 PM (#3426236)
Alomar
Blyleven
Larkin
Raines
   197. adamadkins Posted: January 02, 2010 at 04:20 PM (#3426262)
Since you are from MINNESOTA you know how dominant a pitcher he was. You know what he did for your Twins in Game 7 of the 1991 WS. Why no JACK MORRIS on your ballot?

Yes, he was quite dominant in that one game. You know, Jim Abbott once had a really great game too. David Wells. David Cone. Anibal Sanchez. Don Larsen.

Are they all Hall of Famers too?
   198. Posada Posse Posted: January 02, 2010 at 08:00 PM (#3426367)
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
   199. Gaelan Posted: January 02, 2010 at 08:37 PM (#3426382)
Ventura, for example, certainly had a number of seasons that were of HOF caliber - according to the current standards that voters have more or less settled on. But if I open the door for all these other guys, maybe my standard for peak performance raises, and Ventura falls below it.

Just wondering if you've given thought to this.


I had not thought of that. On quick consideration I'm not sure how you would take that into consideration since if you did you would be forced to become a small hall guy.

If peak voters did as you suggested the result would be that their personal standards would be raised while the standards of career voters remained the same resulting in the ironic result of a hall of fame (or merit) even more tilted to the career length bias.

I don't really consider myself a peak guy as much as an essence guy. I want to know who that player was and I don't need a 20 year career to find out (unless a 20 year career guy is who he is).

My thoughts on Ventura is that he was a good hitter and a great defensive player. I see that as a hall of fame player any way you cut it. The fact that he was that player for "only" ten years doesn't mean anything. Most here consider Tim Raines a slam dunk candidate but I'm not sure why. He was a better hitter at a premium position with only average defense. He has fewer hall of fame quality seasons than Ventura and was only a slightly better player. The last decade of his career is irrelevant.
   200. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 02, 2010 at 09:12 PM (#3426394)
Most here consider Tim Raines a slam dunk candidate but I'm not sure why.


At the risk of over-valuing my own debate skills, I think that posts #27 and #31 of this thread lay out the case pretty well (those specific posts compare him with Kirby Puckett, but I think they work fine for laying out Tim Raines's HOF case for "an essence guy"). Short version, relative to Robin Ventura: I think you're under-rating how much better a hitter Raines was than Ventura and you're missing that he was a truly elite baserunner.
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