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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, December 06, 2010

2011 Results: First-Time Candidates Bagwell, Walker and Brown Are Now in the Hall of Merit!

Slugging Astros first baseman Jeff Bagwell was considered the best of the Class of 2011 according to the electorate by securing 97% of all possible points in the latest Hall of Merit election.

Standout hitter/outfielder Larry Walker was next in line with 73.3%, while fiery pitcher Kevin Brown fell in right behind Walker with an almost identical 73.2%. 

Rounding out the top-ten were: Rafael Palmeiro (strong first showing despite some protest non-votes), David Cone, Rick Reuschel, Phil Rizzuto, Luis Tiant, Cannonball Dick Redding (back in the top-ten!) and Hugh Duffy.

Thanks to OCF and Ron Wargo for their help with this election’s tally!

See all of you again here next year!

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Jeff Bagwell             909   38  35  3                                       
 2  n/e  Larry Walker             686   36     10 12  2  2  4     1  3        1  1      
 3  n/e  Kevin Brown              685   33   1 13 10  4  3        2                     
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4  n/e  Rafael Palmeiro          472   29   1  6  1  1  3  6  4     3  2  1  1         
 5    4  David Cone               332   26         1  7     2  2  2  1  2  3     3  1  2
 6   10  Rick Reuschel            235   16      1     3  6     1  2  1              1  1
 7    5  Phil Rizzuto             225   18         1  2  2  2  1     3  1     1  2  3   
 8    9  Luis Tiant               183   16            1  1  1  1  2  3  1  1  2     2  1
 9   12  Cannonball Dick Redding  180   13      1  1  2  1  1  2        2        1     2
10    7  Hugh Duffy               172   14      1     1  1     2  1  1  2     3  1     1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11    6  Gavvy Cravath            161   16         1     1        1     3  1  2  3  1  3
12   14  Don Newcombe             157   12            2  2     1  2  1  3              1
13    8  Bucky Walters            137   10      1  1  2        2              1  1  1  1
14   17  Vic Willis               132   11               1  1  2  2  1     2  1        1
15   13  Fred McGriff             119   10            1  1        2     3  1  1  1      
16   16  Kirby Puckett            118    9   1  1           1        1  1  2        1  1
17   19  Bobby Bonds              112    9         1        2  1     1  2              2
18   18  Bob Johnson              110   10                  1     3  1  1     1  3      
19T  41  Sal Bando                107    9               1  1  2  1     1  1        2   
19T  23  Tommy Bridges            107    9            1  2     1     1     1  1     1  1
21   31  Ed Williamson            101    7         1  1     1  1  1  1           1      
22   20  Burleigh Grimes          100    8         2        1     1              1  2  1
23   11  Tommy Leach               97    8         1  1     1        1        1  1  2   
24   25  Bus Clarkson              86    7            2        2              2        1
25   21  Tony Perez                84    7            1  1     1        1  1  1     1   
26   22  Dizzy Dean                83    6         2     1                 1        1  1
27   33  Ben Taylor                79    8                  1        1  1  2     1  1  1
28   27  Mickey Welch              76    6                  2     2        2            
29   24  Johnny Pesky              70    7                     1     1  2     1     1  1
30   42  Buddy Bell                67    5         1        1              3            
31   34  Bob Elliott               66    6                        1  2     2  1         
32   29  Albert Belle              62    6                     2  1              1  1  1
33   38T Elston Howard             62    5               1  1     1        1     1      
34   44  Pie Traynor               60    5         1        1                 1  1     1
35   40  Tommy John                59    5               1  1              1  2         
36   28  Bill Monroe               54    5               1  1                 1  1     1
37   37  George Van Haltren        54    4         1     1                 1           1
38   32  Bert Campaneris           53    4                  1  2           1            
39  n/e  John Olerud               48    5                           2     1     1     1
40   35  Norm Cash                 47    5                        1     1  1        1  1
41   51  Vern Stephens             47    4                  1  1        1           1   
42   36  Fred Dunlap               46    4            1        1              1        1
43   46T Addie Joss                46    3      1                    1  1               
44   15  Dave Concepción           45    5                           1     1  1  1     1
45   77T Dwight Gooden             45    3         1                 1  1               
46T  45  Kevin Appier              44    4                     1  1     1              1
46T  56  Carl Mays                 44    4               1     1                    2   
48   48T Urban Shocker             42    4                        2           1     1   
49   65  Wally Schang              41    3               1     1        1               
50   59  Frank Chance              39    4                           2        1        1
51   52  Babe Adams                37    2      1              1                        
52   30  Dale Murphy               35    4                           1        1  1     1
53   26  Ken Singleton             32    3                  1              1        1   
54   54T Don Mattingly             32    2   1                                   1      
55T  53  Ed Cicotte                30    3            1                             1  1
55T  66  Hilton Smith              30    3                           1  1           1   
55T  54T Al Rosen                  30    3                           1     1     1      
58T  63  Dave Bancroft             29    3                     1                 1  1   
58T  60T Ernie Lombardi            29    3                  1                       2   
60   50  Lee Smith                 29    2               1        1                     
61   46T Frank Tanana              28    2                  1     1                     
62   80T Jim Rice                  27    3                                 2        1   
63   60T Sam Rice                  27    2                     1  1                     
64T  68T Luke Easter               25    2               1                    1         
64T  58  Chuck Klein               25    2            1                          1      
64T  62  Jack Quinn                25    2            1                          1      
67   70T Thurman Munson            22    2                        1           1         
68   48T Lou Brock                 21    2                  1                          1
69   43  Larry Doyle               20    2                              1     1         
70T  57  Tony Mullane              19    2                              1        1      
70T  74T Bruce Sutter              19    2                           1              1   
72  n/e  Mike Tiernan              17    1            1                                 
73  n/e  Johnny Evers              16    2                                    1     1   
74T  93T Ron Cey                   16    1               1                              
74T  82T Tony Oliva                16    1               1                              
76   67  Rabbit Maranville         15    2                                       1  1   
77T n/e  Jack Clark                14    2                                          2   
77T  76  Sam Leever                14    2                                       1     1
79T  85  Hack Wilson               13    1                        1                     
79T  86  Jim McCormick             13    1                        1                     
79T n/e  Gene Tenace               13    1                        1                     
82   38T Rusty Staub               12    1                           1                  
83T n/e  Luis Aparicio             11    1                              1               
83T n/e  Mike Griffin              11    1                              1               
85T  80T George J. Burns           10    1                                 1            
85T  87  Lefty Gomez               10    1                                 1            
85T  88T George Kell               10    1                                 1            
85T  88T Deacon Phillipe           10    1                                 1            
89T  70T Jim Kaat                   9    1                                    1         
89T  91T Bill Madlock               9    1                                    1         
89T  79  Dave Parker                9    1                                    1         
89T n/e  Lance Parrish              9    1                                    1         
89T  93T Will White                 9    1                                    1         
94T  88T Fielder Jones              8    1                                       1      
94T 102  Tony Lazzeri               8    1                                       1      
94T  93T Al Oliver                  8    1                                       1      
94T n/e  Joe Tinker                 8    1                                       1      
98T  93T Elmer Smith                6    1                                             1
98T n/e  Harvey Kuenn               6    1                                             1
98T n/e  Bill Mazeroski             6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Tommy Bond(84), Cesar Cedeno(77T), Orlando Cepeda(74T), 
Wilbur Cooper(99T), Jose Cruz(102), Frank Howard(99T), Chuck Finley(82T), Jack Fournier(93T), 
Orel Hershiser(70T), Charlie Hough(102), Leroy Matlock(64), Jack Morris(93T), 
Billy Nash(102), Nap Rucker(91T), Jimmy Ryan(70T), Dizzy Trout(68T), Robin Ventura(99T).
Ballots Cast: 39

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 06, 2010 at 11:06 PM | 125 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:03 AM (#3704552)
Plaques should be up within a week. One of them is already finished, while the other two are almost completed. That's better than last year already. :-)
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:28 AM (#3704565)
someone didn't vote for Bagwell?
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:57 AM (#3704578)
someone didn't vote for Bagwell?


Take a guess, Howie. ;-)
   4. alkeiper Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:30 AM (#3704594)
Which players from the Hall of Fame ballot are prior inductees to the Hall of Merit?
   5. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:40 AM (#3704596)
To answer Alan Keiper in post 4:

Hall of Merit, Not Hall of Fame: current 2011 ballot:

Bert Blyleven
Roberto Alomar
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
Alan Trammell
Jeff Bagwell
Kevin Brown
Larry Walker
   6. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:08 AM (#3704604)
someone didn't vote for Bagwell?

Look, Bagwell never led the league in putouts, and we're supposed to think he's some great defender?
   7. Lassus Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:30 AM (#3704613)
Website.
   8. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:56 AM (#3704621)
Don Mattingly got a first place vote?
   9. OCF Posted: December 07, 2010 at 08:00 AM (#3704635)
The consensus score were fairly spread out, and quite asymmetrical. Lots of voters fairly close to the top, with some outliers below. The mean was -0.3, which was the highest it's been since 2007 and higher than the long-term trend. This was a fairly easy ballot to agree on. The median was +2, above the mean because the distribution was skewed.

Brad Harris: +11
Dan R: +10
Bleed the Freak: +10
DL from MN: +9
Mike Webber: +9
AJM: +9
...
OCF: +7
...
Alex King: +4 (one of our two new voters)
John Murphy: +4
...
Joe Dimino: +2 (yes, Joe is precisely the median voter)
...
Johnny S-L Fora: +1 (our other new voter)
...
dan b: -9
Adam Schafer: -10
Rusty Priske: -11
bjhanke: -18
sunnyday2: -22
yest: -43

About that -43: that is an all-time record for the lowest consensus score. That breaks the previous record for how far below the average consensus score by a margin of 10 (remember that this year's average was fairly high).

I know he's been with us for the duration of the project, but this is getting ridiculous. (And yes, posts number 2,3, and 6 in this thread, that's who I'm talking about.) Serious question: does yest's 2011 ballot actually pass the "Wid Conroy" test?

Note to John: Babe Adams and Hack Wilson didn't drop out.
   10. OCF Posted: December 07, 2010 at 08:49 AM (#3704645)
On the issue of Brown's cap: here is the breakdown of my RA+ equivalent records for him.

Rangers: 73-69 (41 FWP)
Orioles: 12-7 (13 FWP)
Marlins: 38-14 (50 FWP)
Padres: 20-9 (24 FWP)
Dodgers: 63-34 (70FWP)
Yankees: 10-12 (3 FWP)

On balance: you can argue it in any of three ways, and the WS and shoulda-been CY he won with Florida is a consideration - but I'd lean towards calling him a Dodger.

Walker pretty clearly gets a Rockies cap - is that a first for that team?
   11. yest Posted: December 07, 2010 at 01:00 PM (#3704670)
what is so hard to understand that Jeff Bagwell was a boycott vote?
   12. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 07, 2010 at 01:21 PM (#3704673)
Don Mattingly got a first place vote?

Probably from somewhere in CT.
   13. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 07, 2010 at 01:51 PM (#3704674)
Hall of Merit, Not Hall of Fame: All-time differences:

SP's
Bert Blyleven
Bob Caruthers
Wes Ferrell
Billy Pierce
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb

C's
Charlie Bennett
Bill Freehan
Cal McVey
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Quincy Trouppe
Deacon White

1B's
Will Clark
Keith Hernandez
Mark McGwire
Joe Start

2B's
Roberto Alomar
Ross Barnes
Cupid Childs
Bobby Grich
Willie Randolph
Hardy Richardson
Lou Whitaker

3B's
Dick Allen
John Beckwith
Ken Boyer
Darrell Evans
Heinie Groh
Stan Hack
Graig Nettles
Ron Santo
Ezra Sutton

SS's:
Bill Dahlen
Jack Glasscock
Home Run Johnson
Dick Lundy
Dobie Moore
Dickey Pearce
Alan Trammell

LF's
Charley Jones
Charlie Keller
Sherry Magee
Minnie Minoso
Tim Raines
Jimmy Sheckard
Harry Stovey

CF's
Pete Browning
George Gore
Paul Hines
Alejandro Oms
Lip Pike
Jimmy Wynn

RF's
Dwight Evans
Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Reggie Smith

DH's
Edgar Martinez

I apologize for anyone who I may have omitted.
   14. Dan The Mediocre Posted: December 07, 2010 at 02:57 PM (#3704688)
what is so hard to understand that Jeff Bagwell was a boycott vote?


Because there is no reason to boycott him?
   15. Chris Fluit Posted: December 07, 2010 at 03:40 PM (#3704721)
Glad to see Cannonball back in the top ten.

As expected, Rafael Palmeiro and David Cone both look pretty good for induction in 2012. But that third spot is going to be a battle royale. I'd say that everyone down to Gavvy Cravath at #11 has a legitimate shot based on number of points and ballots.

So let me make my plea now: to all of the voters who have Dick Redding just off their ballot, in 16, 17 or 18 (or even 19 or 20), it's time to fire that shot and place Cannonball in your top 15.
   16. Chris Fluit Posted: December 07, 2010 at 03:46 PM (#3704730)
The list in #13 shows our real divergence with the Hall of Fame: 19th century players and post-expansion players.

That's especially clear on the right side of the infield as all first and second basemen fall into one of those two categories (Start, Barnes, Childs, Richardson; Clark, Hernandez, McGwire, Alomar, Grich, Randolph, Whitaker). Now, many of the players from the latter category are still working their way through the writers' ballot (Alomar will most likely be elected in January). It also shows up in the outfield where Oms is the only center fielder who doesn't fit that description.

ps. You're missing Barry Larkin at SS.
   17. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 03:55 PM (#3704739)
On balance: you can argue it in any of three ways, and the WS and shoulda-been CY he won with Florida is a consideration - but I'd lean towards calling him a Dodger.

Walker pretty clearly gets a Rockies cap - is that a first for that team?


Brown was a pain in the butt to figure out. He clearly wasn't a great pitcher as a Ranger, but you can't ignore the huge differential in innings pitched (that's before you prorate his strike numbers in '94, too) compared to LA. It's very close (I have the difference in overall value in the vicinity of 7%), but I lean toward a Rangers cap.

Walker is clearly a Rockie. He had his best years in Colorado and played there longer than in Montreal.
   18. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:02 PM (#3704749)
So let me make my plea now: to all of the voters who have Dick Redding just off their ballot, in 16, 17 or 18 (or even 19 or 20), it's time to fire that shot and place Cannonball in your top 15.


And I urge all Dick Redding voters to take a second look at Don Newcombe, who may be within striking distance of election next year. Newk may not be a sexy "discovery" for the HoM, but you'll find that if you give him credit for the barriers he faced, he's just as strong a candidate as Redding.
   19. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:06 PM (#3704753)
I think a Dodger cap is quite easy, I posted his Pennants Added on his thread. It isn't close. He has more than 50% more value as a Dodger, despite pitching only 2/3 of the innings.

Florida would be #2 for me.
   20. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:08 PM (#3704755)
Here's that post . . .

Pennants added by team:

Team   PA    IP
TEX 
.257 1278.7
BAL 
.086  172.3
FLA 
.277  470.3
SDP 
.135  257.0
LAD 
.401  872.7
NYY 
.034  205.3 


He pitched more for Texas, but he was a lot more valuable as a Dodger.
   21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:08 PM (#3704757)
Note to John: Babe Adams and Hack Wilson didn't drop out.


I'll take care of it, OCF. Thanks.
   22. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:09 PM (#3704759)
BTW, the pennants added are prorated for season length, the innings above are not.
   23. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:11 PM (#3704765)
I think a Dodger cap is quite easy, I posted his Pennants Added on his thread. It isn't close. He has more than 50% more value as a Dodger, despite pitching only 2/3 of the innings.


It's close enough that I won't argue the point, Joe. A Dodger cap it is.

A Florida cap over a Ranger one, OTOH, I would, however.
   24. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:18 PM (#3704772)
He pitched more for Texas, but he was a lot more valuable as a Dodger.


That's questionable. Of course, I'm not a Pennants Added type of guy anyway.
   25. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:22 PM (#3704774)
Does Bagwell go in with a Red Sox cap?
   26. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:26 PM (#3704777)
Chris Fluit/ 16 - thanks for the catch on Barry Larkin. I hope to post the hall of fame not hall of merit later today
   27. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:35 PM (#3704786)
Does Bagwell go in with a Red Sox cap?


Only if karlmagnus was in charge of picking caps. :-D
   28. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:57 PM (#3704808)
Sorry, double post.
   29. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2010 at 04:57 PM (#3704810)
Hadn't thought of Bagwell, but it's quite right, he has a case! Just so long as nobody robs the good guys of Clemens! (not that I'm hugely a fan...)

I must be slipping; not on the lowest consensus score list. Still, as I've pointed out before, mathematically low consensus score ballots add more information to the pool than high ones!

See you guys next year!
   30. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:08 PM (#3704818)
what is so hard to understand that Jeff Bagwell was a boycott vote?


But Mattingly number 1? Seriously? (If you were the one who put Mattingly first)
   31. Mark Donelson Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:19 PM (#3704825)
See you guys next year!

Wait, wait--I thought we were trying to get away from the yearly disappearing act? Aren't we moving forward with the MMP project, the website, etc? (Not that Karl has to participate in those, of course, don't mean to pick on him--but I hate to see us all waving and getting into our Winnebagoes and driving home when we've been talking about the need to remain engaged recently!)

I know the website situation is still dependent on Joe's schedule, and possibly Tango's and Shock's (any update, or projected timeline on that stuff, Joe? And can any of us help in any way, since we know you're swamped?). But can someone with keys perhaps put up a MMP discussion thread, so we can start setting up a schedule and rules and such, and maybe get started on that?
   32. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:22 PM (#3704826)
For a purely peak voter, boycotting Bagwell, I could see (though not agree with) Mattingly being 1st. At least amongst the hitters. I don't know how anyone could justify Mattingly having a higher peak than say, Dizzy Dean, or Nap Rucker.

What the heck happened to Concepcion? I thought he was finally building some momentum.
   33. ronw Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:26 PM (#3704829)
I think chone warp happened to davey.
   34. OCF Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:35 PM (#3704840)
karlmagnus: -7, 8th from the bottom. You did have Bagwell 1st and the other three top new candidates in your top 9. Doing things like putting Joss 2nd and Cicotte 4th will put you below average - but other voters did more than that. karlmagnus voted for 5 of the top 15 candidates: the new 4 plus McGriff. yest voted for 1 of the top 15 candidates: a 9th place vote for Duffy. It looks like several voters voted for 10 of the top 15 candidates, but I don't see anyone with more than that. I voted for 9 of the top 15 myself, missing on Rizzuto, Redding, Duffy, Cravath, Newcombe, and Walters.

On the Brown's cap issue: it looks to me that Joe's Pennants Added post says almost exactly the same thing as my RA+ equivalent FWP post, which is to say LA clearly ahead and Florida slightly ahead of Texas, followed by SD, Bal, and NYY in that order.
   35. Mike Webber Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:45 PM (#3704849)
On balance: you can argue it in any of three ways, and the WS and shoulda-been CY he won with Florida is a consideration - but I'd lean towards calling him a Dodger.


How about we give Brown a $ as his symbol? With a Dr. Jobe office appointment card taped under the bill.
   36. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 05:55 PM (#3704859)
I was just going to say, two things. First, I wound up ranking him below Campaneris and Rizzuto, so people who pay attention to me would move him down in their ordinal rankings. Second, CHONE WAR uses a different methodology for historical positional values (TotalZone scores of position-switchers in each decade) that is very unfriendly to 1970s SS and very friendly to 1970s 3B. And since his numbers got on baseball-reference and mine didn't, everyone is now ringing the Bell to jump on the Bando-wagon.

Obviously, I disagree strongly with Sean's methodology for determining historical positional values and with the conclusions drawn from it. He would surely say the same of mine.
   37. Chris Fluit Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:00 PM (#3704869)
And I urge all Dick Redding voters to take a second look at Don Newcombe, who may be within striking distance of election next year. Newk may not be a sexy "discovery" for the HoM, but you'll find that if you give him credit for the barriers he faced, he's just as strong a candidate as Redding.


I'll second that. I'm a supporter of both. I had Redding 4th and Newcombe 8th on this year's ballot.

Though I would disagree with one thing. I think Newk is a great "discovery" for the Hall of Merit, demonstrating this body's fuller understanding of baseball's integration era.
   38. Chris Fluit Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:01 PM (#3704870)
I think a Dodger cap is quite easy, I posted his Pennants Added on his thread. It isn't close. He has more than 50% more value as a Dodger, despite pitching only 2/3 of the innings.

Florida would be #2 for me.


I agree. I would love to see Brown pick up the first cap for the Marlins but his Dodger work was even better. The Rangers, despite the bulk innings, are well behind the other two.
   39. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:05 PM (#3704875)
As expected, Rafael Palmeiro and David Cone both look pretty good for induction in 2012. But that third spot is going to be a battle royale. I'd say that everyone down to Gavvy Cravath at #11 has a legitimate shot based on number of points and ballots.

And Bernie Williams is a first timer next year, I think.
   40. Chris Fluit Posted: December 07, 2010 at 06:06 PM (#3704879)
What the heck happened to Concepcion? I thought he was finally building some momentum.


It flipped to Bando, who jumped to 19th from 41st.
   41. OCF Posted: December 07, 2010 at 07:18 PM (#3704948)
Voted in 2011 but not 2010:

Brad Harris (last previous vote in 1935)
Mike Webber (one year skip)
Alex King (new voter)
'zop (one year skip)
Johnny S-L Fora (new voter)
Ken Fischer (one year skip)

Voted in 2010 but not 2011:

Brent
Chris Cobb
KJOK
mulder & scully
mystikx20 (one-timer)
Sean Gilman
Tiboreau
Yardape

Voted in 2008 or 2009 but not 2011:

Max Parkinson
Tom H
Andrew M
Andrew Siegel
DanG
David Foss
Don F (Pedro Feliz Navidad)
Eric Chalek
EricC
favre
Jim Sp
rico vanian
Tom D

Those last two lists carry a great deal of HoM history and expertise. Of course, any one of them could have flipped the order of Walker and Brown (a falling leaf could have flipped the order of Walker and Brown), but it seems unlikely that all of them put together could have or would have changed the overall results.
   42. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 07:44 PM (#3704978)
If you are on those lists, I'm really hoping you vote next year, where the election is wide open. Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?
   43. DL from MN Posted: December 07, 2010 at 09:54 PM (#3705156)
Don't worry about your support of players in the top 18. If we go with instant runoff for next year the following players must be ranked:

Rafael Palmeiro
David Cone
Rick Reuschel
Phil Rizzuto
Luis Tiant
Cannonball Dick Redding
Hugh Duffy
Gavvy Cravath
Don Newcombe
Bucky Walters
Vic Willis
Fred McGriff
Kirby Puckett
Bobby Bonds
Bob Johnson

I'd also add Bernie Williams to the list as he's the only potentially viable candidate from next year's class. The 2012 election will come down to those players. The players don't have to be in your top 15 but they must have an ordinal ranking in order for an instant runoff to be successful. None of the candidates are a lock to get 50% of the possible points.
   44. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2010 at 10:10 PM (#3705166)
all-time 'votes points' thru 2011 - those still eligible in 2012 election are in CAPS

electees are not in caps

top 4 locked in place for all eternity, it seems
Redding may be only 3 years away from overtaking Welch for most pitching pts
Cravath celebrates rise into all-time top 20
Walters annexes 22nd, Grimes claims 29th, Williamson 48th, all others unchanged
Willis could catch Keller for 50th in 2 years, barely

TOP 50, ALL-TIME, unofficial
DUFFY...... 27398.5
VAN HALTREN 26905.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
WELCH...... 18613
Childs..... 18484
REDDING.... 18130
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976

CJones..... 15875
TLEACH..... 15660
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12663.5X
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
CRAVATH.....12064

Roush...... 12005
WALTERS.....11633
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
DOYLE....... 9794
GRIMES.......9613
HStovey......9576

BJOHNSON.....9529
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
McGraw.......8145
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BMONROE......7861

Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6837
WILLIAMSON...6680
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424

Others in active top 50
Willis 6151, Dean 5814, Elliott 5113, Bridges 4900, Joss 4760, Rizzuto 4566, BTaylor 4504, TPerez 4217, FChance 3755, CMays 3713, NCash 3671, Tiant 3660, Traynor 3616, Cepeda 3449X, SRice 3277, Cicotte 3239, McCormick 3219, Brock 3114, EHoward 2843, Tiernan 2692X, Singleton 2690, FJones 2636, BoBonds 2634, Klein 2586, VStephens 2523, BClarkson 2421, Veach 2389X, GJBurns 2388, Staub 2383, Mullane 2328, Dunlap 2259, Lombardi 2215, Bancroft 2047, Poles 1842X

don't have tallies for guys who might sneak in near the bottom like Cone, Newcombe, Concepcion, Puckett
   45. Rusty Priske Posted: December 07, 2010 at 10:21 PM (#3705174)
I did a quick run-through for 2012 and yes, it does seem that Dick Redding will sneak onto my ballot.

My early predictions for my PHoM for 2012 are Larry Walker, Bernie Williams and... Buddy Bell? That can't be right. Time to look at it again. :)


On this year's discussion thread someone said I was in love with first basemen or something. It looks to me like my #1-3 may be Rafael Palmeiro, Fred McGriff and Tony Perez. :)

I see Bernie Williams around 7 or 8.
   46. DL from MN Posted: December 07, 2010 at 10:44 PM (#3705193)
Find a pitcher, Rusty!

It was me that said you love first baseman. I'm not wrong. I would encourage you to reconsider your apparent lack of interest in pitchers.
   47. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2010 at 02:15 AM (#3705336)
Wow, Tiernan back from the dead.
Give him 2709 pts - too bad the "edit" function has expired...
   48. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 08, 2010 at 03:44 AM (#3705367)
My early predictions for my PHoM for 2012 are Larry Walker, Bernie Williams and... Buddy Bell?


If that happens, Walker will be the first ever two time inductee.
   49. OCF Posted: December 08, 2010 at 04:17 AM (#3705376)
You misinterpreted; he said "PHoM," where the "P" stands for "personal." There's no inherent contradiction there.
   50. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2010 at 04:35 AM (#3705382)
I hope that doesn't come off wrong. I just see Bernie Williams, Buddy Bell and Fred McGriff and think there's gotta be a pitcher you like more than one of those guys. This isn't the cream of the crop.
   51. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:32 AM (#3705446)
Hall of Fame, Not Hall of Merit:
SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
Hilton Smith
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

RP’s
Bruce Sutter

C’s
Rick Ferrell
Ernie Lombardi
Ray Schalk

1B’s
Jim Bottomley
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Chance
George Kelly
Tony Perez
Ben Taylor

2B’s
Johnny Evers
Tony Lazzeri
Bill Mazeroski
Red Schoendienst

3B’s
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
George Kell
Fred Lindstrom
Pie Traynor

SS’s
Luis Aparicio
Dave Bancroft
Travis Jackson
Rabbit Maranville
Phil Rizzuto
Joe Tinker

LF’s
Lou Brock
Chick Hafey
Heinie Manush
Jim Rice

CF’s
Earle Combs
Hugh Duffy
Kirby Puckett
Lloyd Waner
Hack Wilson

RF’s
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Chuck Klein
Tommy McCarthy
Sam Rice
Ross Youngs
   52. DanG Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:52 AM (#3705453)
SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Dizzy Dean
Lefty Gomez
Burleigh Grimes
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Addie Joss
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock
Hilton Smith
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Grimes should be included here.
   53. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:54 AM (#3705456)
Dan G/52 - nice catch. Grimes is one of the finer Hall of Fame selections that has fallen short of the Hall of Merit.
   54. shock Posted: December 08, 2010 at 07:15 AM (#3705458)
Lassus/7 what is it that you keep trying to get at?
   55. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2010 at 07:41 AM (#3705467)
well, I think Bill James had a book where for some reason he just went "pass" when it came to the Bagwell description. That would be a weak "easter egg" but it's possible..
   56. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 08, 2010 at 02:49 PM (#3705538)
Speaking Grimes, what makes Redding better than him as a candidate? I'm not seeing it. I do like Grimes, and he's probably in my second 15, give or take. But I don't see what makes Redding a better candidate.
   57. Esteban Rivera Posted: December 08, 2010 at 03:44 PM (#3705567)
Looking over the list of HOF not HOM posted in #51, a realization has hit me: There are few players that I have a problem with/think should not be in the HOF. Go figure.
   58. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2010 at 04:17 PM (#3705593)
I think it would be a fun exercise to rank the HoF not HoM to determine which induction mistakes are the worst. It would only take 3 elections (P, SS/2B/3B/C, 1B/OF) and we could do it while we are firming up the MMP project (or ignoring the MMP project, either way). It might also solidify support for the best HoF not HoM players.
   59. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2010 at 04:50 PM (#3705638)
RK LY Player PTS Bal
4 n/e Rafael Palmeiro 472 29
27 33 Ben Taylor 79 8

These players aren't that different but somehow there are 23 places, 21 ballots and 400 points separating them.
   60. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2010 at 05:13 PM (#3705665)
If you are on those lists, I'm really hoping you vote next year, where the election is wide open. Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?

Joe, I think those reasons are better addressed in #31.


Lassus/7 what is it that you keep trying to get at?

In a sadly increasingly petulant manner (see username), I'm simply trying to highlight that the lack of a dedicated HOM website strikes me (admittedly, an outsider) as an issue that isn't getting enough priority. I think the fact that there wasn't any response at all to Mark Donelson's post shows this.
   61. sunnyday2 Posted: December 08, 2010 at 05:41 PM (#3705697)
I think Newk is a great "discovery" for the Hall of Merit, demonstrating this body's fuller understanding of baseball's integration era.


Thanks.
   62. sunnyday2 Posted: December 08, 2010 at 05:46 PM (#3705707)
Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?

Joe, I think those reasons are better addressed in #31.

Wait, wait--I thought we were trying to get away from the yearly disappearing act?


No, yes, and yes. The people on O's list in #41 are unlikely to see an invitation to please vote posted here, I think. A year from now, 39 votes are going to be harder yet to come by, at least 39 knowledgeable votes/voters.
   63. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 08, 2010 at 05:48 PM (#3705710)
Seriously, from my outsider perspective, Lassus is right on. There's no leadership here anymore, so nothing is getting done. MMP sounds very cool, but if it's going to happen, somebody new needs to step up and just announce, "I'm running it, get me the keys." Every time I see Dimino post, he's just gotten a new job or moved and is trying to catch up with all the posts. You all can't wait for him. Tell him you're taking charge, and then do it.
   64. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2010 at 05:53 PM (#3705717)
Lassus - are you by any chance an unemployed website designer? I'll put up $50 for a good HoM website. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would contribute a little money to see a website happen. The real Hall of Fame needed fundraising to get off the ground, why wouldn't we?
   65. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:18 PM (#3705741)
DL - I wish. Sadly, all I can do is nag, as far as the website goes. I'd also contribute, though.
   66. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:21 PM (#3705745)
In a sadly increasingly petulant manner (see username)*, I'm simply trying to highlight that the lack of a dedicated HOM website strikes me (admittedly, an outsider) as an issue that isn't getting enough priority.

Well, at one time there was this. Although I notice that the date of their latest "weekly poll" was August 14, 2009......

*Dammit, Lassus, with a stick like that Schon I sold you, you should at least be able to hustle the rent money every month. And anyway, every pool player knows that work is overrated.
   67. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:39 PM (#3705761)
> Tell him you're taking charge, and then do it.

I thought John did step forward to start MMP in January. He already has the keys. I think bimonthly (every 2 months) is about as aggressive of a schedule as we could manage.

We probably need to formally amend the constitution to implement instant runoff. I think we could use some debate on the threshold (<1/2 ballots, <1/2 total possible points, etc). I like requiring ranking of the previous year's top 15 returnees plus any new players above 40 WAR.
   68. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:48 PM (#3705771)
We probably need to formally amend the constitution to implement instant runoff. I think we could use some debate on the threshold (<1/2 ballots, <1/2 total possible points, etc). I like requiring ranking of the previous year's top 15 returnees plus any new players above 40 WAR.

I think the point of everyone who is pushing the website is that everything you've mentioned here is #26-#30 and the website is numbers #1 - #25. I mean, again, if the members don't see it that way, they don't. But as someone who is a fan, follower, and supporter, I strongly disagree.

(As a caveat, I'll stick the MMP at #15, as that is a great idea.)

Maybe I should start learning web development for the sole purpose of making the HOM website.
   69. fra paolo Posted: December 08, 2010 at 06:59 PM (#3705783)
A year from now, 39 votes are going to be harder yet to come by, at least 39 knowledgeable votes/voters.

Except for the fact that there were only 15 ballots posted at the actual first-announced deadline, I'm not entirely sure this is the case. The question is whether an e-mailed appeal to voters past and present should be standard practice when the ballot discussion thread goes up and when the ballot thread goes up.

When you look at the 'annual election' ballots, there's actually a fairly stable base in terms of numbers:

2011 39
2010 41
2009 40

There's just not enough data to draw any hard conclusions from that. Perhaps an examination of how many ballots were posted before any extension would do better at spotting any difficulty in recruiting voters.

Basically, about one-fifth of the voters fell away when the elections went annual. I'm not convinced a web site is the highest priority in getting them back. It might actually be an e-mail list that would do the trick. A web site might help with recruitment of new voters, though, especially if in conjunction with the Most Meritorious Player project.
   70. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2010 at 07:08 PM (#3705795)
I think you have a handle on it. The MMP keeps the current people interested. Runoff voting adds rigor to the process. A website is essentially advertising but it ensures the project will continue. The MMP project also gives the website something to report. 1 press release a year doesn't draw a lot of eyeballs nowadays. The website is probably the most important but amending the rules for runoff voting requires the least amount of effort.
   71. Yardape Posted: December 09, 2010 at 01:18 AM (#3706257)
If you are on those lists, I'm really hoping you vote next year, where the election is wide open. Has the forgone conclusion of the last two elections maybe been a reason for losing a few of you?


Having final projects for two grad school classes due at the same time as the Hall of Merit ballot is what kept me away this year. I hope to be back next year, or as soon as I can.
   72. shock Posted: December 09, 2010 at 01:31 AM (#3706263)

Well, at one time there was this. Although I notice that the date of their latest "weekly poll" was August 14, 2009......


I am the one who set up the current HallOfMerit.com. I am fully able and willing to push that along in whatever direction is needed. For over a year I have attempted to garner some feedback as to what kind of things, features, etc. the members are looking for and what sorts of things they would like to see on the website.

As Lassus has pointed out, the interest seems to be frustratingly low, which is why I haven't touched the site in several months. I am a developer, but I am more the builder than the designer. Of someone wants to sketch out some quick blueprints on the back of a napkin for me I would be more than happy to start working on some things again.

I am a big fan of the HoM, but I have never been a participant, and I don't really know what the active participants are looking for. Without a sense of direction, it is hard to progress. For example, I could easily set up a little registration system for voters, that allows them to login and conduct their votes through the website, and have it automatically tally the results. Hell, I could have it spit out a neat little AJAXy ballot with all eligible players that you can re-arrange into your preferred order with a drag-n-drop. But I'm not going to expend the time and energy to develop something no-one wants. And that's been the problem.

My email is available through the BBTF system, and Joe Dimino has it as well. I am a professional developer, and willing to work for free. Just tell me what you want, and you've got it.
   73. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2010 at 01:59 AM (#3706284)
I want the plaques for each player up. I'd love to see multimedia plaques telling the story of each player. This is the most important thing to me.

I want the advanced stats available (MLE's etc) for those players that needed them calculated.

I want the election results searchable year-by-year. I want to be able to search on any player and see when he received a vote.
   74. shock Posted: December 09, 2010 at 02:12 AM (#3706291)

I want the election results searchable year-by-year. I want to be able to search on any player and see when he received a vote.


This is already in place.

Donnie Baseball, for example.

I also started on a "plaque" sort of thing although it doesn't contain any multimedia (that would be tricky, with copyrights etc.) Here's a link to the Reggie Smith example.
   75. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2010 at 02:22 AM (#3706297)
I like the plaques, some multimedia would be public domain for the older players.
   76. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2010 at 03:19 AM (#3706329)
Shock,
I find all of your sentiments perfectly sensible and pragmatic, and I greatly appreciate your willingness to serve. It could be that our next focus could best be spent on figuring out what the group wants and then letting you know about it.
   77. rawagman Posted: December 09, 2010 at 04:02 AM (#3706351)
I used to work with web developers and have a pretty decent understanding of the conceptualizing he is asking about. I really think taking the bus off this site would be smart if we can move over all discussion threads as well, and present them in an easier to use format - currently way too much scrolling and slow loading. You voting idea sounds very attractive "I could have it spit out a neat little AJAXy ballot with all eligible players that you can re-arrange into your preferred order with a drag-n-drop."
I would be happy to be on a committee working out those details.
Thank you, Shock.
   78. Alex King Posted: December 09, 2010 at 04:36 AM (#3706376)
Shock/74:

One thing that jumps out at me from a quick look at the website is that the election results by player are missing points--it's much easier to visualize a player's support with points than by simply looking at the chart (the "off ballot" column is very helpful, when available, though it might be better as % of ballots the player appears on). While I'm on this topic, graphs of yearly support would be awesome, if they aren't too hard to make.
   79. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2010 at 04:08 PM (#3706692)
Can you beef up the links with articles that have been written about the Hall of Merit (Posnaski, blogs, etc)?

Can you complete all the plaques this year? Can you post the most recent election results prominently?

Another thing we should do is replace the yahoo group with a repository on the HoM webpage. Voters should have logins at the HoM.
   80. Mark Donelson Posted: December 09, 2010 at 05:55 PM (#3706820)
I would be happy to be on a committee working out those details.

Me too. But most important, let's form one! Can we get the go-ahead from Joe to do that (and find out if he wants to be on it or not, of course)? That will help immensely in getting this moving.

Thank you, Shock.

Yes, a thousand times!

Can you beef up the links with articles that have been written about the Hall of Merit (Posnaski, blogs, etc)?

I imagine we would need to give Shock an actual list of the ones we want. Does anyone have one handy, or is it Google time?

EDIT: I heartily agree with this as well: really think taking the bus off this site would be smart if we can move over all discussion threads as well, and present them in an easier to use format - currently way too much scrolling and slow loading.
   81. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 09, 2010 at 07:37 PM (#3706952)
A link to an excellent article by Joe Posnanski:

Http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/12/29/hall.of.merit/index.html
   82. shock Posted: December 09, 2010 at 08:07 PM (#3706988)

Can you complete all the plaques this year?


This is something I could use some help with. If anyone is willing to put in some data-entry time let me know.

What is the yahoo group? I can work on a Voters login soon.
   83. John Northey Posted: December 09, 2010 at 08:28 PM (#3707006)
Not a single vote for a guy who might get into the HOF this winter (geez I hope not)? Interesting. I'm talking about Jack Morris of course.

Are there any other current HOF'ers who are not either in the HOM or who didn't get a top 15 vote this year - more the guys who played post the 1930's than the obvious ones who shouldn't be there.
   84. DanG Posted: December 09, 2010 at 08:49 PM (#3707034)
Are there any other current HOF'ers who are not either in the HOM or who didn't get a top 15 vote this year
Hm. Orlando Cepeda is on the "Dropped Out" list, along with Morris. I also don't see any votes for Catfish Hunter or Red Schoendienst.
   85. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2010 at 10:17 PM (#3707150)
Kiki Cuyler - which as someone else mentioned is odd. He's not that bad of a selection. Also Leon Day, Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson don't get any support.
   86. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2010 at 10:18 PM (#3707155)
duplicate
   87. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 10, 2010 at 01:12 AM (#3707398)
Articles published by Dan Rosenheck on New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21score.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/sports/baseball/02score.html?pagewanted=print

Thanks for penning those articles Dan.

Anymore articles forthcoming?

Will your pitcher and batter WAR be updated soon, or in time for the 2012 election cycle?
   88. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 10, 2010 at 01:59 AM (#3707459)
John Northey / 83:

Hall of Famers not Hall of Merit, not receiving a vote for the Hall of Merit 2011 election:

SP’s
Chief Bender
Jack Chesbro
Andy Cooper
Leon Day
Jesse Haines
Waite Hoyt
Catfish Hunter
Rube Marquard
Herb Pennock

C’s
Rick Ferrell
Ray Schalk

1B’s
Jim Bottomley
Orlando Cepeda
George Kelly

2B’s
Red Schoendienst

3B’s
Ray Dandridge
Judy Johnson
Fred Lindstrom

SS’s
Travis Jackson

LF’s
Chick Hafey
Heinie Manush

CF’s
Earle Combs
Lloyd Waner

RF’s
Kiki Cuyler
Harry Hooper
Tommy McCarthy
Ross Youngs

Hall of Fame, Not Hall of Merit:
Highest Points Totals in 2011 Election
Phil Rizzuto
Hugh Duffy
Vic Willis
Kirby Puckett
Burleigh Grimes
Tony Perez
Dizzy Dean
Ben Taylor
Mickey Welch
Pie Traynor
Addie Joss
Frank Chance
Hilton Smith
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Lombardi
Jim Rice
Sam Rice
Chuck Klein
Lou Brock
Bruce Sutter
Johnny Evers
Rabbit Maranville

Receiving One Vote Hall of Famers:
Hack Wilson (yest)
Luis Aparicio (Chris Fluit)
Lefty Gomez (rawagman)
George Kell (yest)
Tony Lazzeri (ronw)
Joe Tinker (Mike Webber)
Bill Mazeroski (Fra Paolo)

BBWAA Electees not Inducted into Hall of Merit:
Kirby Puckett - 1st ballot
Tony Perez
Dizzy Dean
Pie Traynor
Jim Rice
Lou Brock - 1st ballot
Bruce Sutter
Rabbit Maranville
Luis Aparicio
Zero votes:
Catfish Hunter
Herb Pennock

I would take Kiki Cuyler as the best Hall of Famer not to receive a vote in the 2011 election.

Hopefully the data set is correct, and I apologize for any issues.
   89. Lord Finesse Posted: December 10, 2010 at 06:06 AM (#3707648)
Also Leon Day, Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson don't get any support.

I'm glad Willie Wells wasn't that third name.
   90. Rick A. Posted: December 10, 2010 at 12:54 PM (#3707822)
Howie,

There are few discrepancies on your list compared to mine.

Elliott 5118
Traynor 3716
Cash 3692
Brock 3120
E. Howard 2839
Bonds 2728
Veach 2388
Puckett 2386
Concepcion 2032
...
Newcombe 1585
Reushel 1426
...
Cone 1245
   91. TR_Sullivan Posted: December 10, 2010 at 08:29 PM (#3708165)
I am announcing my Hall of Fame ballot here first...as I did last year

As always it was tough....I looked at many people very hard....I am sure I will be blistered for my votes but feel free to correspond at tr.sullivan@mlb.com. FYI...I have covered the Rangers for 22 years.

Roberto Alomar - Quite deserving
Jeff Bagwell - Just thought he was more dominant than McGriff or Olerud.
Bert Blyleven - You guys swayed me on this one
Barry Larkin - Hard choice in picking him over Trammell
Mark McGwire - As always, I decline to sit in judgement on the steroids issue
Jack Morris - I go back and forth on him. This year...yes
Rafael Palmeiro - Same as McGwire
Tim Raines - Very close. As a GM, I would rather have Parker or Murphy but he was a great leadoff hitter.

I also voted for Juan Gonzalez and Kevin Brown...personal reasons. Sorry, I can do that

What about...
Edgar Martinez - Saw him in person for many years against the Rangers. Great great hitter. As a DH, I wish his career offensive numbers were a little better.
Larry Walker - Looked at him hard. Very hard. Just didn't pull the trigger. Looked at some road numbers that held me back for now.

TR.Sullivan@mlb.com
   92. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 10, 2010 at 09:13 PM (#3708199)
Tim Raines - Very close. As a GM, I would rather have Parker or Murphy but he was a great leadoff hitter.

Then why aren't you voting for Parker or Murphy? (I'm pretty sure they're both still on the ballot, right?)
   93. Delorians Posted: December 10, 2010 at 09:44 PM (#3708226)
"Then why aren't you voting for Parker or Murphy? (I'm pretty sure they're both still on the ballot, right?)"

Because he already voted for 10 players. All in all, this is not a bad ballot (to me only 2 questionable choices, one of which was obviously a hometown connection). I think the best thing about it is that it includes 10 votes. With more and more candidates entering the ballot in upcoming years, the number of votes per ballot will need to increase to prevent a logjam that keeps players from getting elected.
   94. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 10, 2010 at 10:21 PM (#3708246)
Right, but it's 10 players including Raines. Why not choose Parker or Murphy over Raines?
   95. TR_Sullivan Posted: December 10, 2010 at 10:37 PM (#3708258)
Just think Raines is more overall deserving because of his career but think that Murphy and Parker... at their best...were the better players....They just didn't have the complete careers necessary
   96. Repoz Posted: December 10, 2010 at 10:51 PM (#3708266)
Thanks again, TR!
   97. Coot Veal and Cot Deal's cols=“100” rows=“20” Posted: December 11, 2010 at 12:29 AM (#3708345)
acknowledging the two "personal reasons" votes as personal, the rest of the ballot, save Morris, is very encouraging.

thank you for allowing us the chance to quarrel and dicker, TR.
   98. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 11, 2010 at 01:01 AM (#3708362)
ust think Raines is more overall deserving because of his career but think that Murphy and Parker... at their best...were the better players....They just didn't have the complete careers necessary


That reasonable, late 70s Dave Parker really was a serious impact player for few years before he had... issues.
I'm not sure Murphy had higher peak than Raines, but it was a little longer, it was that abrupt cliff dive that did Murphy in
   99. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 11, 2010 at 01:02 AM (#3708363)
This is already in place.

Donnie Baseball, for example.


How about adding the total points and where they finished on the ballot?
   100. Howie Menckel Posted: December 11, 2010 at 01:29 AM (#3708379)
Thanks to Rick A, the REAL keeper of the lists

FIXED

all-time 'votes points' thru 2011 - those still eligible in 2012 election are in CAPS

electees are not in caps

top 4 locked in place for all eternity, it seems
Redding may be only 3 years away from overtaking Welch for most pitching pts
Cravath celebrates rise into all-time top 20
Walters annexes 22nd, Grimes claims 29th, Williamson 48th, all others unchanged
Willis could catch Keller for 50th in 2 years, barely

TOP 50, ALL-TIME, unofficial
DUFFY...... 27398.5
VAN HALTREN 26905.5
Beckley.... 25856
Browning... 24502.5
WELCH...... 18613
Childs..... 18484
REDDING.... 18130
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976

CJones..... 15875
TLEACH..... 15660
Bresnahan.. 14965
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
Sewell..... 12769
RYAN....... 12663.5X
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
CRAVATH.....12064

Roush...... 12005
WALTERS.....11633
Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896
DOYLE....... 9794
GRIMES.......9613
HStovey......9576

BJOHNSON.....9529
Mackey.......8930
AOms.........8385
Start........8378.5
McGinnity....8232
McGraw.......8145
DPearce......8073
McVey........7985.5
FGrant.......7969.5
BMONROE......7861

Kiner........7746
Suttles......7690
NFox.........7587
Trouppe......7494
WFerrell.....7259
CBell........6968
SCHANG.......6837
WILLIAMSON...6680
Galvin.......6585
Keller.......6424

Others in active top 50 (36)
Willis 6151, Dean 5814, Elliott 5118, Bridges 4900, Joss 4760, Rizzuto 4566, BTaylor 4504, TPerez 4217, FChance 3755, Traynor 3716, CMays 3713, NCash 3692, Tiant 3660, Cepeda 3449X, SRice 3277, Cicotte 3239, McCormick 3219, Brock 3120, EHoward 2839, BoBonds 2728, Tiernan 2709, Singleton 2690, FJones 2636, Klein 2586, VStephens 2523, BClarkson 2421, Veach 2388X, GJBurns 2388, Puckett 2386, Staub 2383, Mullane 2328, Dunlap 2259, Lombardi 2215, Bancroft 2047, Concepcion 2032, Poles 1842X

(Newcombe 1585, Reuschel 1426, Cone 1245)
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