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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, December 28, 2010

2011 Veterans Committe Ballot

The election will end on Tuesday on January 4 at 8 PM EST.

Eligible candidates: Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Pat Gillick, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Billy Martin, Marvin Miller, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons, Rusty Staub and George Steinbrenner.

Rules:

9. Voting: The Committee shall consider all eligible candidates and voting shall be based upon the individual’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as four (4) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted (Editor’s note: though if you want to post them, I’m not going to stop you from doing that).

10. Number to be Elected: All candidates receiving votes on at least 75% of ballots cast on will earn election.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 28, 2010 at 04:29 PM | 81 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 28, 2010 at 04:49 PM (#3718840)
My ballot (in alphabetical order)

Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

Still undecided about General von Steingrabber.
   2. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:02 PM (#3718846)
No one.

-- MWE
   3. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:08 PM (#3718851)
Same as Murphy:

Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

I'd probably write-in Grich or something while I was at it, were that it worked that way.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:11 PM (#3718852)
Since writing in Grich doesn't appear to be an option, I'll toss votes to Miller and Simmons. Marvin's the only one I'd feel strongly about.
   5. HGM Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:12 PM (#3718853)
Pat Gillick, Marvin Miller, Ted Simmons
   6. Mark Donelson Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:50 PM (#3718882)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
   7. Lassus Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:53 PM (#3718885)
Miller

(I SOOOOO wanted to hand in a Miller/Garvey ballot, but I'm trying to be an adult.)
   8. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 28, 2010 at 05:58 PM (#3718890)
Martin
Miller
Simmons
Steinbrenner
   9. icho1977 Posted: December 28, 2010 at 06:01 PM (#3718891)
Dave Concepcion
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
   10. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 28, 2010 at 06:11 PM (#3718896)
Steinbrenner
Simmons
Miller
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: December 28, 2010 at 06:11 PM (#3718897)
Ted Simmons

I'm not a fan of voting for non-players or managers
   12. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: December 28, 2010 at 06:14 PM (#3718899)
Miller
Simmons
Steinbrenner
   13. Alex King Posted: December 28, 2010 at 06:55 PM (#3718927)
Miller
Simmons
Martin

If I could cast write-in votes, I'd vote for Whitaker and Grich and remove Martin.
   14. The District Attorney Posted: December 28, 2010 at 07:09 PM (#3718942)
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: December 28, 2010 at 07:19 PM (#3718951)
If I could cast write-in votes, I'd vote for Whitaker and Grich and remove Martin.


Whitaker wasn't snubbed in this particular process, since he doesn't fit the timeline for consideration. Grich, on the other hand, was once again inexplicably overlooked.
   16. Srul Itza Posted: December 28, 2010 at 07:26 PM (#3718957)
Tommy John
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner.
   17. Delorians Posted: December 28, 2010 at 07:30 PM (#3718960)
Gillick
John
Miller
Simmons
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 28, 2010 at 08:32 PM (#3719005)
Tommy John
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner.


You have one too many, Srul.
   19. Juan V Posted: December 28, 2010 at 08:43 PM (#3719012)
Concepcion
Miller
Simmons

I keep going back and forth on Gillick, I'll vote "no" this time.
   20. Rob_Wood Posted: December 28, 2010 at 08:51 PM (#3719019)
No one.
   21. rawagman Posted: December 28, 2010 at 08:52 PM (#3719021)
Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Billy Martin, Al Oliver, Rusty Staub and George Steinbrenner.

Like my regular HOF ballot, this is done without benefit of my spreadsheets. I know a Hall of Famer when I see his baseball-reference.com page.
Without further ado:
1) Marvin Miller
2) Pat Gillick
3) Ted Simmons
4) Tommy John - I don't think of him as a Hall of Meriter, but in the context of Cooperstown, I think he is worthy of a place. Were I listening closer to my Hall of Merit conscience, I would probably make Al Oliver my 4th.
   22. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 28, 2010 at 08:55 PM (#3719023)
Gillick (I've been convinced by the arguments I've seen on various threads)
Miller (top of the list)
Simmons (another case of slow conversion)
Steinbrenner (only an insanely high bar could keep him out)
   23. John DiFool2 Posted: December 28, 2010 at 08:56 PM (#3719024)
Miller
Simmons
Martin
   24. bjhanke Posted: December 28, 2010 at 09:01 PM (#3719034)
Mine is:

Ted Simmons
Marvin Miller

I could be persuaded to include Gillick by a good argument, but I don't see enough there by myself, partially because I don't know enough about GMs in general to place Gillick in a reliable context. I might make a stab at comparing him to, say, Walt Jocketty, but I have no idea how to compare him to, say, Branch Rickey or Connie Mack (as a GM). My assumption is that Rickey would dominate the GM field in the way that Marvin Miller dominates labor leaders. But Pat Gillick isn't that kind of no-brainer, and I can't examine him in depth because of the lack of context.

- Brock Hanke
   25. JoeC Posted: December 28, 2010 at 09:28 PM (#3719054)
Marvin Miller, Ted Simmons.
   26. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: December 28, 2010 at 09:39 PM (#3719060)
Simmons
Miller
Gillick

I could be persuaded to include Gillick by a good argument, but I don't see enough there by myself, partially because I don't know enough about GMs in general to place Gillick in a reliable context. I might make a stab at comparing him to, say, Walt Jocketty, but I have no idea how to compare him to, say, Branch Rickey or Connie Mack (as a GM). My assumption is that Rickey would dominate the GM field in the way that Marvin Miller dominates labor leaders. But Pat Gillick isn't that kind of no-brainer, and I can't examine him in depth because of the lack of context.

- Brock Hanke


I made my case for Gillick here:

Gillick has a very impressive resume. His teams won wherever he went. In his 27 seasons as GM, he had seven losing seasons—and five were his first years running the barely-past-expansion Blue Jays. Once the Jays turned the corner, they remained consistent winners from 1983 to 1993 despite a complete turnover of all the key players on the team. From 1982 onward, Gillick teams never finished worse than five games under .500 in 23 seasons. In that same span his clubs made the playoffs 11 times and claimed a trio of world titles.

What’s more, Gillick teams often won because he was very good at tapping into new resources. Toronto was one of the first clubs to invest heavily in the Dominican Republic and his Mariners heavily engaged themselves in the Pacific Rim. Others tapped those markets before Gillick, but he really involved himself in those lands to a greater degree than most competitors.


If a manager had Gillick's resume, he'd be in. I believe that in the modern game the GM is more important, so I definately support Gillick.
   27. Srul Itza Posted: December 28, 2010 at 09:56 PM (#3719073)
You have one too many, Srul.


Knock off TJ, so it becomes:


Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner.
   28. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 28, 2010 at 10:04 PM (#3719078)
Gillick
Miller
Simmons
   29. mex4173 Posted: December 28, 2010 at 10:26 PM (#3719098)
Gillick
Simmons
Miller

I'm young enough that Steinbrenner to me is just the ~'95-'05 Yankees and Seinfeld reruns. I really have no idea how to treat him.
   30. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: December 29, 2010 at 01:34 AM (#3719208)
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner

John and Martin just miss
   31. Good cripple hitter Posted: December 29, 2010 at 01:41 AM (#3719213)
Gillick
John
Miller
Simmons
   32. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 29, 2010 at 01:48 AM (#3719222)
I really have no idea how to treat him.

Like a piece of ####, as he treated everyone who worked for him.
   33. Jeff R., P***y Mainlander Posted: December 29, 2010 at 01:53 AM (#3719226)
Like a piece of ####, as he treated everyone who worked for him.


Really? With Steinbrenner on the ballot?
   34. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 29, 2010 at 01:55 AM (#3719227)
This is a mix of players and execs? How does this work??
   35. SoSH U at work Posted: December 29, 2010 at 02:23 AM (#3719247)
This is a mix of players and execs? How does this work??


Looking at the results, it falls somewhere between Swiss engineering and the Joe Morgan SuperFriends, though closer to the latter.
   36. bjhanke Posted: December 29, 2010 at 09:36 AM (#3719380)
Dag Nabbit, comment #26, makes a good case for Pat Gillick, and if you click on his link (to The Hardball Times), Bruce Markenson makes an even better one. However, they both make the case by listing what Gillick did (Bruce is more specific than Dag), rather than placing what he did in a context of other GMs in and out of the HoF. If I had a couple of weeks, I might find the time to do those comparisons, as it's obvious from what Dag and Bruce say that he's at least a prime candidate. But I'm still hung up in the same place I was - lack of context. How does Gillick compare to John Shuerholtz (sp?)? To Walt Jocketty? To Billy Beane? I would guess that he's better than any of the three, pending Jocketty's career finish, but I can't back that up. And when it comes to executive types, I really feel a need to be conservative, because it's not my area of expertise. I simply don't have enough knowledge base to provide my own context, and I don't have the time to do the comparisons. The odd thing is that what I really need is a book about GMs that is as good as Dag's (Chris Jaffe) on managers is. If we were talking managers, I'd consider Dag's opinion to be pretty much definitive, unless I absolutely knew that he'd made a mistake somewhere, and I haven't found one yet. But that book for GMs does not exist yet, at least not that I know of. - Brock Hanke
   37. DL from MN Posted: December 29, 2010 at 04:07 PM (#3719445)
Dave Concepcion
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

Would have thrown a vote to Tommy John if I could have voted for 5.
   38. AROM Posted: December 29, 2010 at 04:48 PM (#3719463)
Miller
Simmons
Martin
Gillick

Would vote for Stein if I could vote 5. After that my next picks would be Guidry, and just behind him John.
   39. Ron Johnson Posted: December 29, 2010 at 05:05 PM (#3719477)
Marvin Miller
George Steinbrenner
Pat Gillick
Ted Simmons
   40. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 29, 2010 at 06:59 PM (#3719533)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

I'm not an executive expert, so I will leave off Gillick, be he has a strong candidacy.
Billy Martin falls a bit short, as I am not a large hall of fame managers guy.
George Steinbrenner is a tricky one - it feels to me like his time away from the Yankees organization allowed them to us Brian Cashman and others intelligence, leading to the 4 championship dynasty from 1996-2000. I'll leave him off, but will consider in the future. His suspension for investigating Dave Winfield is a blackeye too.
Concepcion and John are on the cusp, but are short.

Can the title of this thread be changed to 2011 Veterans Committee Ballot?
   41. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 29, 2010 at 07:13 PM (#3719547)
Can the title of this thread be changed to 2011 Veterans Committee Ballot?


Done.
   42. fra paolo Posted: December 30, 2010 at 03:20 AM (#3719876)
Marvin Miller
   43. karlmagnus Posted: December 30, 2010 at 03:42 PM (#3720069)
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner

Miller and George are shoo-ins for me, because of their effect on the game. I'm on the whole a believer in the Billy Martin mystique, having been around for several though not all of its applications. Simmons is a marginal HOMer, so should be in the HOF. I have Tommy John on my HOM ballot at #12, so logically he should probably be on this one. However I'm only allowed 4 so he just misses.
   44. alilisd Posted: December 30, 2010 at 06:27 PM (#3720224)
Miller
Simmons
Steinbrenner
   45. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: December 30, 2010 at 06:59 PM (#3720255)
Miller
Simmons
   46. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 30, 2010 at 09:29 PM (#3720401)
gillick
john (though i think this is really a vote for frank jobe)
miller
simmons.
   47. BDC Posted: December 30, 2010 at 09:52 PM (#3720416)
I'll vote just for Marvin Miller.
   48. Adam Schafer Posted: December 30, 2010 at 11:01 PM (#3720471)
pat gillick
tommy john
billy martin
ted simmons
   49. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: December 31, 2010 at 12:20 AM (#3720520)
gillick
steibrenner
miller
martin
   50. Chris Fluit Posted: December 31, 2010 at 01:11 AM (#3720553)
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner

I've voted for Billy Martin in the past but he's squeezed out by the four-candidate maximum.
   51. Mike Webber Posted: December 31, 2010 at 06:08 AM (#3720653)
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

Gillick going in is a good precedent, and a reflection of how the game has developed over the past half century.
   52. MBL Posted: December 31, 2010 at 10:56 AM (#3720709)
Pat Gillick
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
   53. Rusty Priske Posted: December 31, 2010 at 02:35 PM (#3720725)
Al Oliver
Ted Simmons
Rusty Staub
   54. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 31, 2010 at 07:09 PM (#3720858)
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner
   55. andrew siegel Posted: December 31, 2010 at 08:08 PM (#3720887)
Hi, guys.

Murphy guilted me into voting.

My ballot is:

Miller (if the HoF had 50 guys he should be in).
Simmmons (comfortably above the in/out line).

I will probably eventually vote for Steinbrenner but more time needs to pass to judge him objectively.
   56. Brent Posted: January 01, 2011 at 03:22 AM (#3721118)
Gillick
Miller
Simmons
   57. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: January 01, 2011 at 06:37 AM (#3721161)
Gillick
Miller
Simmons
Martin
   58. Howie Menckel Posted: January 01, 2011 at 07:11 AM (#3721165)
andrew siegel!

it's a Happy New Year already - welcome, prodigal son...
   59. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 01, 2011 at 02:18 PM (#3721198)
Miller
Steinbrenner
   60. SWW Posted: January 01, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#3721404)
Alphabetically:

Lawrence Patrick Gillick
Thomas Edward John Jr.
Marvin Julian Miller
Ted Lyle Simmons
   61. markruck Posted: January 02, 2011 at 06:45 PM (#3721804)
Miller. Maybe Gillick. What did Steinbrenner ever do for the game? The rest are players and already had their chance, so none of them.
   62. DL from MN Posted: January 03, 2011 at 05:07 PM (#3722286)
> The rest are players and already had their chance, so none of them.

You really think the BBWAA are omniscient?
   63. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 03, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3722301)
No one.


Consider this an opportunity for dialogue and education,

FPH
   64. CrosbyBird Posted: January 03, 2011 at 06:55 PM (#3722349)
Thanks for the note in the other thread.

Ted Simmons
   65. Posada Posse Posted: January 04, 2011 at 03:37 AM (#3722743)
Pat Gillick
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
George Steinbrenner
   66. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 04:00 AM (#3722762)
Gillick
Miller
Simmons
   67. Al Peterson Posted: January 04, 2011 at 01:37 PM (#3722907)
Pat Gillick
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

You'd think about Big Stein and Martin until you read from the rules: "integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game." Couple of those words wouldn't be caught dead with those Yankee candidates.
   68. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2011 at 02:39 PM (#3722936)
Pat Gillick
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

Billy Martin's managerial career is so insane, his skills so peculiar, and he was so much better in the short-term than any manager ever, that I think he ought to be in the Hall of Fame. It's a sort of peak / peculiarity argument.
   69. dlf Posted: January 04, 2011 at 02:43 PM (#3722938)
Simmons
Miller
   70. DCA Posted: January 04, 2011 at 04:12 PM (#3722991)
Tommy John
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
   71. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 04, 2011 at 04:16 PM (#3722994)
Billy Martin's managerial career is so insane, his skills so peculiar, and he was so much better in the short-term than any manager ever, that I think he ought to be in the Hall of Fame. It's a sort of peak / peculiarity argument.

Hiring Billy Martin as a manager was like signing up for an ARM in 2006.
   72. flournoy Posted: January 04, 2011 at 04:17 PM (#3722995)
Ted Simmons
   73. J. Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: January 04, 2011 at 04:19 PM (#3722996)
Concepcion
Martin
Miller
   74. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: January 04, 2011 at 04:26 PM (#3723002)
Miller
Gillick
Simmons
   75. DanG Posted: January 04, 2011 at 05:13 PM (#3723054)
Pat Gillick
Tommy John
Billy Martin
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons

Consider this a missed opportunity for monologue and pedantry.
   76. DCA Posted: January 04, 2011 at 05:20 PM (#3723061)
DanG

too many ... you can only pick up to 4
   77. DanG Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:03 PM (#3723164)
too many ... you can only pick up to 4
Damn...ok...split the vote for...heh, heh. Knock off Martin then...bit of a homer vote anyway.
   78. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:56 PM (#3723379)
Miller. Maybe Gillick.


Is Gillick definitely on your ballot, markruck?


> The rest are players and already had their chance, so none of them.

You really think the BBWAA are omniscient?


The spirit of Johnny Mize, for one, laughs at that.
   79. Riley Esco Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:00 AM (#3723513)
Pat Gillick
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
   80. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:01 AM (#3723514)
1. Simmons
2. Miller
3. Gillick
4. John
   81. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 05, 2011 at 02:03 AM (#3723554)
The election is now over. Results will be posted at 10 EST.

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