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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, January 02, 2012

2012 Veterans’ Committe Ballot

The election will end on Sunday on January 8 at 8 PM EST.

Eligible candidates: Ken Boyer, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat, Allie Reynolds, Luis Tiant, Charlie Finley, Buzzie Bavasi, Gil Hodges, and Ron Santo.

Rules:

9. Voting: The Committee shall consider all eligible candidates and voting shall be based upon the individual’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as four (4) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted (Editor’s note: though if you want to post them, I’m not going to stop you from doing that).

10. Number to be Elected: All candidates receiving votes on at least 75% of ballots cast on will earn election.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 02, 2012 at 07:23 PM | 73 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 02, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4027137)
hot topics
   2. Juan V Posted: January 02, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4027147)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Miñoso
Luis Tiant
Ron Santo
   3. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 02, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4027152)
</b>Minnie Minoso, Ron Santo
   4. rawagman Posted: January 02, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4027153)
Ron Santo
Minnie Minoso
Tony Oliva
Buzzie Bavasi
   5. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: January 02, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4027157)
Ron Santo
Minnie Minoso
Ken Boyer
Luis Tiant
   6. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2012 at 09:23 PM (#4027186)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant
Ron Santo

I'm not a fan of mixing executives and players but I considered Finley instead of Boyer.
   7. John DiFool2 Posted: January 02, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4027190)
Ron Santo
Luis Tiante
Minnie Minoso
   8. Tim Marchman Posted: January 02, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4027194)
Santo
Boyer
Miñoso
Finley
   9. RJ in TO Posted: January 02, 2012 at 09:49 PM (#4027199)
Luis Tiant
Ron Santo
Buzzie Bavasi
   10. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: January 02, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4027201)
Santo
   11. theorioleway Posted: January 02, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4027211)
Ron Santo
Minnie Minoso
Ken Boyer
Luis Tiant
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4027216)
Santo
   13. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 02, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4027219)
Jim Kaat
Luis Tiant
Charlie Finley
Ron Santo
   14. Mike Webber Posted: January 02, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4027221)
Ken Boyer,
Minnie Minoso,
Luis Tiant,
Ron Santo.
   15. MBL Posted: January 02, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4027240)
Ron Santo
Minne Minoso
Tony Oliva
Jim Kaat
   16. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: January 02, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4027251)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Buzzie bavasi
   17. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 02, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4027264)
No one.

-- MWE

   18. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 02, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4027265)
Boyer
Minoso
Santo
   19. Alex King Posted: January 02, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4027277)
Minoso
Finley
Santo
   20. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 02, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4027290)
Ron Santo
Charlie Finley
Buzzie Bavasi
   21. Chris Fluit Posted: January 02, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4027292)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
   22. bjhanke Posted: January 02, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4027305)
Santo
Tiant
Boyer
Minoso
   23. DL from MN Posted: January 03, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4027320)
No one.

-- MWE


It would be a pretty boring museum if everyone voted like that.
   24. Guapo Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:31 AM (#4027366)
Minnie Minoso
Buzzie Bavasi
   25. SWW Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:45 AM (#4027378)
Alphabetically:

Kenton Lloyd Boyer
Saturnino Orestes Armas Minoso Arrieta – “Minnie”
Ronald Edward Santo
   26. Adam Schafer Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:50 AM (#4027402)
Ken Boyer
Charlie Finley
Buzzie Bavasi
Ron Santo
   27. JoeC Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:00 AM (#4027407)
Ron Santo
   28. Ron J Posted: January 03, 2012 at 03:23 AM (#4027424)
Ron Santo
Minnie Minoso
   29. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 03, 2012 at 07:21 AM (#4027449)
No one.
   30. Bleed the Freak Posted: January 03, 2012 at 07:53 AM (#4027455)
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
   31. chisoxcollector Posted: January 03, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4027467)
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
   32. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 03, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4027497)
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo.
   33. Fridas Boss Posted: January 03, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4027503)
Ron Santo
   34. user Posted: January 03, 2012 at 10:25 AM (#4027510)
Santo
   35. HGM Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4027558)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Minoso
Charlie Finley
Ron Santo
   36. AROM Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4027561)
Santo
Minoso
Tiant
Finley
   37. Chicago Joe Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4027567)
Isn't Santo already in?
   38. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4027575)
Ron Santo
   39. cookiedabookie Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4027595)
Santo
Boyer
Tiant
Minoso
   40. DL from MN Posted: January 03, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4027607)
Isn't Santo already in?


Yes, we're creating a consensus of who BBTF would have elected off the ballot that elected Santo.
   41. mex4173 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4027648)
Minoso
Santo
   42. JJ1986 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4027676)
Ron Santo
   43. Howie Menckel Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4027679)

Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo

   44. Rob_Wood Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4027691)

Ron Santo
   45. BDC Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4027704)
I'll take

Finley
Miñoso
Santo
   46. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: January 03, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4027711)
Santo
   47. Mark Donelson Posted: January 03, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4027770)
Minoso
Santo
Tiant
Boyer (somewhat reluctantly)
   48. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: January 03, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4028091)
Ron Santo
Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant
Ken Boyer

Thought about Bavasi, but his lack of success after leaving the Dodgers hurts him.
   49. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: January 03, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4028153)
It would be a pretty boring museum if everyone voted like that.

It would be pretty boring if everyone voted the BTF-approved ballot.

And perhaps you overlooked the other 40+ posts, but everyone doesn't vote like that.
   50. sunnyday2 Posted: January 03, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4028249)
Minoso and Santo.
   51. ajnrules Posted: January 03, 2012 at 10:13 PM (#4028305)
Gil Hodges
Minnie Minoso
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
   52. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4029072)
Santo
Minoso
Bavasi
Finley
   53. EricC Posted: January 05, 2012 at 09:44 AM (#4029383)
Minoso
Santo
   54. fra paolo Posted: January 05, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4029405)
No-one.
   55. Carl Goetz Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4029442)
Boyer
Minoso
Santo

Write in
Bobby Grich
   56. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4029556)
Minnie Minoso and Ron Santo
   57. DL from MN Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4029566)
56. Eric Chalek (Dr. Chaleeko) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4029556)


Where have you been?
   58. Johnny Slick Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4029567)
Santo
Minoso
Is Bill Veeck in already?
   59. DanG Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4029598)
Write in
Bobby Grich
Grich's era was not being considered this year. HoM players who didn't make this ballot include Torre, Wynn, Allen, Freehan and Pierce.

Meanwhile, Tiant was mistakenly included on this ballot, since his career was mostly after 1972.
   60. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4029627)
Is Bill Veeck in already?

Here's your answer.
   61. The District Attorney Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4029654)
Charlie Finley and Ron Santo.
   62. lieiam Posted: January 06, 2012 at 12:55 AM (#4030083)
Santo
Minoso
Boyer
   63. bjhanke Posted: January 06, 2012 at 06:23 AM (#4030161)
If it makes any of you who voted reluctantly for Boyer feel better, this election specifically includes character stuff, and Boyer scores heavy. He was considered a very good teammate, and was such a good guy as a manager that he failed because he couldn't make himself enforce discipline. Also, when the Cards had the big fracas over black players and the hotel (the spring training hotel would not let the black players stay there), Gussie Busch had a friend of his buy an entire motel so the players could all be in the same place. Both Musial and Boyer, the team's two biggest stars at the time, were renting beach cabanas that spring. They gave up the cushy cabanas and moved into the motel, to show solidarity for their black teammates. Both Bob Gibson and Curt Flood specifically cited Boyer and Musial as two MLB guys who were white but who had no use for segregation, and went out of their way to show it. Just in case you're on the borderline over Boyer....

- Brock
   64. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: January 06, 2012 at 09:09 AM (#4030178)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant
Ron Santo
   65. Swedish Chef Posted: January 06, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4030180)
Ron Santo
   66. Carl Goetz Posted: January 06, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4030202)
'Grich's era was not being considered this year. HoM players who didn't make this ballot include Torre, Wynn, Allen, Freehan and Pierce.'

Thanks Dan. I was not aware that that is how the vet committee works.

New Ballot
Boyer
Minoso
Santo
Finley: I remembered that this is the HoF, not HoM, so I don't need to prove myself. Finley built one of the better dynasties in baseball history, was one of the more entertaining owners of all-time (really between him and Veeck right?), and brought facial hair back to the game.

Write ins (even though they don't count)
Joe Torre
Jimmy Wynn
Dick Allen
Bill Freehan
Billy Pierce

   67. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: January 06, 2012 at 10:25 AM (#4030213)
Both Musial and Boyer, the team's two biggest stars at the time, were renting beach cabanas that spring. They gave up the cushy cabanas and moved into the motel, to show solidarity for their black teammates. Both Bob Gibson and Curt Flood specifically cited Boyer and Musial as two MLB guys who were white but who had no use for segregation, and went out of their way to show it.


MORE PROOF THAT MURRAY CHASS IS A WORTHLESS TURD, MR. PRESIDENT.
   68. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: January 07, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4031116)
Ken Boyer
Minnie Minoso
Charlie Finley
Ron Santo
   69. Nate the Neptunian Posted: January 08, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4031608)
Ron Santo
Minnie Minoso

Santo would have been 3rd on my 2012 HoM ballot, and Minoso 15th without any additional non-MLB credit, so that seemed like a good cut-off. Next up would have been Hodges, but he wouldn't have made my top 20, and would have been behind, for instance, Rizzuto. For the record, Dick Allen would have been ahead of Tommy Leach and #1 on my HoM ballot, Wynn would have been #2 between Leach and Palmerio, and Torre would have been #13, behind Hilton Smith, so I would have voted for all them here as well (ignoring for a second the fact that Torre's managerial career technically has to be considered as well when he's up for the HoF vote as a player, something the actual VC voters seem to forget).

So I'm not impressed by any nomination process that excludes them, and includes Allie Reynolds. Seriously, I don't know what the nominating committee sees in him that he keeps getting nominated. OK, in fairness, considering he was 2nd in the VC voting in 2009, I guess he had to be considered this year. And looking at his time on the BBWAA ballot, I see he once got over 30% of the vote, which is another point in his favor, I suppose. But both of those results were travesties. And looking at him fresh, rather than being influenced by how the voters were wrong about him in previous votes, I don't know under what system he could possibly do well. I mean, I'm sure he wouldn't be the absolute worst player in the HoF, but my system has him behind Happy Jack Chesbro and Rube Marquard. By a lot.

Just going by rWAR, he ranks behind Chesbro but ahead of Marquard, and is in no way a serious candidate. I mean, looking from 1942 to 1972, so expanding out the time period of this vote's era to include his full career and be as favorable to him as possible, he ranks #50 in pitching WAR, behind such luminaries as Bob Buhl and Frank Lary. (And he was nothing special as a hitter or a fielder, so adding those WAR values in doesn't particularly help his cause.) Hell, limiting the years to his exact career, 1942 to 1954, which is cherry picking to show him in the best possible light, he ranks #13 in pitching WAR, behind, among others, Harry Brecheen and Virgil Trucks. Both of whom would be better candidates, and I wouldn't vote for them either.

Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, since Reynolds hasn't gotten a single vote in this thread, but I just had to get that off my chest. Hopefully the fact that he didn't get any support from the VC this year means he can be left off the next ballot for this era (in three years?) and an actual serious candidate can be added.
   70. DCA Posted: January 08, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4031918)
just found this. if it's not too late

Santo
Finley
Minoso
   71. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 09, 2012 at 08:54 AM (#4032033)
I'm having problems with the ballot counter spreadsheet I normally use to create a tally worthy of posting here at BBTF, so I'm just going to announce the winners here now and worry about posting a finished product at some other time (since it's only a mock election to begin with :-): Santo (93%)).

DCA: you were too late. The elections ended at 8 PM. Sorry about that. If it's any consolation, it wouldn't have changed anything.
   72. DL from MN Posted: January 09, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4032322)
How close was Minoso?
   73. DL from MN Posted: January 09, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4032327)
HoM players who didn't make this ballot include Torre, Wynn, Allen, Freehan and Pierce


This could have been a much more difficult election for Santo. If Santo had those guys on the ballot plus Minoso, Boyer, Tiant, the execs and Hodges - then vote for just 4.

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