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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Friday, December 20, 2013

2014 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots (sorry Bob Tufts). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end Monday on Dec 30th (4 PM EST). Results will be posted a short time later.

Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

The eligible candidates are: Moises Alou, Jeff Bagwell, Armando Benitez, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Sean Casey, Roger Clemens, Ray Durham, Eric Gagne, Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jeff Kent, Paul Lo Duca, Greg Maddux, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, Hideo Nomo, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Kenny Rogers, Curt Schilling, Richie Sexson, Lee Smith, J.T. Snow, Sammy Sosa, Frank Thomas, Mike Timlin, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker.

DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:20 AM | 182 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4621602)
Do I have a volunteer to help count votes? I'm counting MMP ballots at the same time.
   2. ajnrules Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4621608)
I will volunteer to help count votes. Meanwhile here is my ballot.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas

Left off due to ballot limit: Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Tim Raines, Sammy Sosa, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker
   3. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4621616)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

First cut was 17 players. Had to drop Sosa, Kent, Edgar, Biggio, Walker, McGwire and Frank Thomas. Everyone on this ballot is above a 50th percentile Hall of Famer. FWIW - Frank Thomas is also above the 50th percentile.

Thanks ajnrules - is your contact information up to date in your profile?

BTW speaking from experience alphabetized ballots are a big help to the ballot counter.
   4. alilisd Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4621625)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

I feel pretty good about the first nine names, which is to say I feel strongly they're the best nine on the ballot; however, that still left me with 10 names from which to choose the 10th man. I went with Trammell purely out of hometown bias. My 10 consisted of all of the players ajnrules listed, sub Biggio for Trammell, plus Sosa and McGriff. (Edited to alphabetize the names)
   5. AROM Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4621630)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas

My first pass I put down everyone I wanted to vote for, but with full understanding that I'd have to leave deserving sluggers like Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire off for ballot limitations, and I also would not have the space to vote for guys I want in like Trammell, Walker, Edgar. That left me with 11 guys, my no-brainers. It is very difficult to cross off Biggio to get down to 10 names, but a choice had to be made.
   6. BrianBrianson Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4621638)
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

Damn, that's tough. Since I know I'm likely to take heat, read the ballot rules - there's no suggestion that it's a relative ranking at all. There's no reason to vote for the 10 most qualified candidates - only ten qualified candidates. From the candidates I find suitable, I chose those where I though my vote was most likely to put them over 75%, or over 5% - the best use of the obviously insufficient number of slots.
   7. BDC Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:11 PM (#4621640)
Wow, was it only a year ago – feels like we just did this.

Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
McGwire
Piazza
Schilling
Sosa
Thomas

I've left off 6 or 8 deserving names (as most of us feel, I'm sure), including some that I've voted for several times before (Raines, Trammell), because better candidates are accumulating.
   8. Danny Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4621648)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Larry Walker

Tough to cut: Biggio, Raines, Trammell
Easier to cut, but considered: McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa
   9. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4621649)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Rank ordered:
1. Bonds
2. Clemens
3. Maddux
4. Schilling
5. Piazza
6. Mussina
7. Glavine
8. Walker
9. Bagwell
10. Trammell

Deserving players left off due to ballot limit:
11. Thomas
12. Martinez
13. Palmeiro
14. Raines
15. Sosa
16. Biggio
17. McGwire
   10. alilisd Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:26 PM (#4621654)
there's no suggestion that it's a relative ranking at all. There's no reason to vote for the 10 most qualified candidates


Except for the part about, "Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." I think that pretty clearly says you should vote for the better player. YMMV.
   11. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4621655)
It would be interesting to run a ballot where all the players this group already elected are taken off the ballot. Based on last year's voting that would eliminate Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Raines, Schilling and Trammell.

Kenny Lofton would be available but Fred McGriff would not.


last year's results

McGwire was elected in 2012

2012
2011

   12. BrianBrianson Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4621656)
That's totally absurd. It no more says you should vote for the better player than it is a recipe for lobster bisque. It only says that you should consider more than just their statsheet when voting.
   13. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4621657)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Thomas

McGwire was my #10 selection, but at some point during my contemplation so were Mussina, Schilling, and Trammell.


   14. ajnrules Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4621659)
Yeah, my e-mail is updated. Thanks
   15. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:35 PM (#4621661)
FWIW McGwire was elected in 2012 and 2011.
   16. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4621663)
Another ballot counter would be appreciated to cross-check
   17. fra paolo Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:43 PM (#4621668)
I'm happy to count.

Also, given how much we like voting, we could have two votes. One using the BBWAA list of candidates, and one reflecting our own history! We could run the latter after the BBWAA-based election is concluded.
   18. Guts Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:48 PM (#4621671)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas

This is tough.
   19. flournoy Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4621674)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Fred McGriff
Mike Piazza
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Nine guys (all the usual suspects) left off due to ballot size.
   20. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4621681)
Has anyone noticed that this isn't easy? Because this isn't easy.

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   21. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 20, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4621682)
Maddux
Clemens
Bonds
Glavine
Thomas
Piazza
Bagwell
Mussina
Schilling
Trammell

Top 9 are pretty easy. The 10th spot is a real #####. Trammell, Biggio, Raines, Walker. It's literally a pick'em. I pick Trammell. Tomorrow I might pick Raines. It's no shame being the 11th best choice in this group. Or for that matter, the 15th.
   22. TDF, situational idiot Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4621691)
I'm not a "big hall" guy (I think the current number is about right, if you swapped some out), but there's 16 guys I'd vote for immediately and I'd let you try to convince me on 3 more.

Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell

   23. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:14 PM (#4621701)
This is an absolutely brutal ballot.

In alphabetical order:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell


HoF worthy, and forced off solely by the 10 vote limitation:

Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
   24. The District Attorney Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4621710)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   25. OCF Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4621715)
This is tough. I have to push some people off the ballot.

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell

I did vote for McGwire, Raines, and Walker last year, and would clearly do so again if there were room. I would vote for Mussina if there were room, I would vote for Lofton and Sosa if there were room. So that's 16 names I would have on the ballot.

I'm set up to count. DL from MN knows where to find me.
   26. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4621717)
Jack Morris.
   27. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4621723)
Ballot in alphabetical order for ease of counting:

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
   28. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4621725)
(just kidding)

Actual Ballot:
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines

If I had room I'd also vote for:
Mike Mussina
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Larry Walker

If I had room after that I'd consider adding:
Sammy Sosa
Rafael Palmeiro
Jeff Kent
   29. Ace of Kevin Bass Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4621726)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

Just missing the cut due to ballot size limit: Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Larry Walker
   30. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4621730)
My initial list was 18 players, I think.

Here's the big 10:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tom Glavine
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Frank Thomas


Guys I would have voted for in a normal environment:
Jeff Kent (maybe)
Edgar Martinez
Rafael Palmeiro
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
   31. Moeball Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:48 PM (#4621737)
Man, this is tough because there are so many qualified candidates.

Well, at any rate - if it was up to me, here's who this year's speech-givers would be:

Bonds
Clemens
Bagwell
Glavine
Maddux
F. Thomas
Piazza
Trammell
Schilling
Mussina

If allowed more than 10 votes I'd add Raines, McGwire, Schilling, Biggio, and probably Walker, too.
   32. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4621738)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   33. Peter Farted Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4621740)
Clarification requested: "Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon."

Suppose I want to leave one or more first timers off, not to prevent unanimous inductees, but to keep others from falling below 5%. Would this still be frowned upon?
   34. EddieA Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4621742)
If I had a vote:
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
McGwire
Palmeiro
Piazza
Schilling
Sosa
Thomas

Obvious omission because he wouldn't need my vote to get in and Sosa and Palmeiro might need the vote just to stay on the ballot, so this is slightly different than my top 10.
   35. Peter Farted Posted: December 20, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4621746)
That answers my question! Thanks.

Bagwell
Biggio
Glavine
Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas
Walker
   36. The Mighty Quintana Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:02 PM (#4621751)
Craig Biggio
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
   37. JoeC Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4621754)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Walker

Also supported, but no room:
Biggio
McGwire
Martinez
Palmeiro
Raines
Trammell
   38. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:07 PM (#4621757)
I thought about this for a while and I came to the conclusion that if there are this many good candidates, something must be up. I think a lot of that is longevity -- players today are lasting longer than they used to thanks to training, medical technology, and increased professionalism (and maybe PEDs), so when comparing them to past HoF candidates they will come out ahead in the career comparison, but that's just an era adjustment that needs to be made. And actually it's not just career -- peaks are lasting longer, in-season durability is higher, etc..

IMO the Hall of Fame should be for the top few ballplayers of every era, so the standards for this era should be raised to take into account the fact that it's easier to achieve them (i.e. more players do). I don't care about minor era imbalances, but the fact that we have several players coming on the ballot for several years who meet the past historical standards of the HoF (by counting stats, OPS+, ERA+, WAR, WS, whatever) makes me think we need to raise the statistical standards.

My ballot does not have 10 guys on it for this reason. I also value fame a lot for this exercise -- the HoF is a museum that should include the most relevant players from each era -- the most historically significant -- not the best. It's designed to take a tour of baseball through the ages.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas
   39. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4621760)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Frank Thomas
Tom Glavine
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Mike Piazza
   40. Blackadder Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:13 PM (#4621761)
1) Barry Bonds
2) Roger Clemens
3) Greg Maddux
4) Mike Piazza
5) Jeff Bagwell
6) Curt Schilling
7) Alan Trammell
8) Frank Thomas
9) Mike Mussina
10) Larry Walker

Obviously many people I would want to vote for left off. Walker vs Raines for the last spot is basically a coin flip. I'm probably a little higher on Trammell than most here, but I'm convinced by Dan R's argument that rWAR and fWAR underrate shortstops from the 70's and 80's.
   41. alilisd Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4621777)
That's totally absurd.


You're right. It's totally absurd that when the voting rules state, "Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability..." one might think they should vote for the best players. What was I thinking!
   42. EricC Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4621784)
Biggo
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
Trammell
   43. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4621786)
Assuming there are no qualifications necessary to cast a vote:
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Thomas

Obviously there are tons of qualified candidates, there are 19 that I could see myself voting for in different circs. The really painful cuts to me were Trammell and Walker. Walker's pretty firmly my 12th preferred candidate on this ballot; Glavine/Mussina/Trammell just kills me to cut one.
   44. LargeBill Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4621788)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Thomas

Will Kent (among others) fall off after this ballot? Almost think it would be best to have a few clearly deserving players fall off the ballot to drive home the problem. If I remember correctly players were reinstated to the ballot once before so maybe Kent & others could be reinstated after the backlog clears. Rather than voters submitting strategic ballots the problem would be fixed quicker if they just voted for 10 best candidates and if players fall off they fall off. Keeping 15 guys on the ballot with between 6 and 20% doesn't solve anything. Could make things worse if a voter skips players he assume will obviously going to clear 75% only to see them come in at < 75%.
   45. BDC Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4621791)
It's almost like the current HOF voting system is flawed.
   46. EricC Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:43 PM (#4621792)
In #42, "Biggo" is a typo for "Biggio".
   47. Peter Farted Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4621793)

You're right. It's totally absurd that when the voting rules state, "Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability..." one might think they should vote for the best players. What was I thinking!


I assume sarcasm is intended here, but I don't believe it's justified. I can say that every one of my 10 slots contains a player whose record and ability I deem worthy of the Hall, and therefore my voting is in compliance with the rules. There are no rules pertaining to deciding who to LEAVE OFF.
   48. Chris Cobb Posted: December 20, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4621796)
What I'd put for my ten, in rank order:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Mike Piazza
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine

Left off due to the 10-person limit: Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Tim Raines, Sammy Sosa, and Larry Walker.

Other players who have already been eliminated from the ballot by the 5% rule whom I would like to vote for include Kevin Brown, Will Clark, David Cone, Kenny Lofton, Brett Saberhagen, Robin Ventura, and Lou Whitaker.

Players who retired after 1980 who have been eliminated from the ballot by the 15-year eligibility limit whom I would like to vote for include Buddy Bell, Bobby Bonds, Bert Campaneris, Darrell Evans, Dwight Evans, Bobby Grich, Keith Hernandez, Graig Nettles, Willie Randolph, Rick Reuschel, Ted Simmons, Reggie Smith, Dave Stieb, and Luis Tiant.

So that’s 39. What a mess. The small-Hall folks wouldn’t agree with the idea that there are around 40 players from the last 40 years who have left out of the Hall by the BBWAA, but even only putting in 25 of these players would still be holding the post-1970 generation to a much higher standard than earlier ones.
   49. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:16 PM (#4621816)
Maddux
Clemens
Bonds
Glavine
Thomas
Piazza
Bagwell
Mussina
Schilling
Raines

...I guess.
   50. Chris Fluit Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4621821)
I'd vote for 20 candidates if I could.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   51. Ron J2 Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4621829)
I could come up with a different 10 easily. In fact I know I have.

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas


   52. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4621833)
Wow, this is hard. Ok.

1. Barry Bonds
2. Roger Clemens
3. Greg Maddux
4. Frank Thomas
5. Tom Glavine
6. Curt Schilling
7. Mike Piazza
8. Mark McGwire
9. Sammy Sosa
10. Jeff Bagwell

Wish I could squeeze Biggio and Raines in
   53. AROM Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4621839)
Looking at Andy's ballot (#23) it's amazing how little difference there is between someone who treats steroids as an automatic disqualifier, and someone who doesn't. His ballot differs from mine on only:

Biggio over Bonds (roids)
Trammell over Mussina (for each of us, I think this is just a tough call, I'd vote Trammell if I could.)
   54. Ivo Shandor Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4621843)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Martinez
McGwire
Piazza
Thomas
   55. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4621847)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Kent
McGwire
Palmeiro
Piazza
Raines
Sosa

I don't believe a faction of the BBWAA should have veto over HoF elections, using criteria I disagree with, so I'm continuing to vote for worthy candidates from previous years who should have been inducted by now, rather than pass them over in favor of more recent candidates who also deserve election, and in some cases may even be more deserving. Unfortunately, that results in game of chicken between the BBWAA factions (also reflected here & elsewhere) and possibly years of stalemate. If there was no ballot glut, I'd also vote for Glavine, Maddux, Mussina, and perhaps others.



   56. Baldrick Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4621849)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Walker

I think the first nine are relatively easy calls. Trammell vs. Walker for the 10th spot is close, but I think Walker comes out a bit ahead. 12-15 is some ordering of Edgar, Raines, Biggio, McGwire. And I'd also induct Sosa, Palmeiro, and Kent. I've voted for McGriff in the past when we had the ballot space, and remain on the fence about him. But the 17 guys above him all deserve induction, for sure.
   57. HGM Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4621852)
1) Jeff Bagwell
2) Craig Biggio
3) Barry Bonds
4) Roger Clemens
5) Tom Glavine
6) Greg Maddux
7) Mike Piazza
8) Tim Raines
9) Frank Thomas
10) Curt Schilling

Would also vote for Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Mike Mussina, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, Alan Trammell and Larry Walker if there wasn't a limit.
   58. cookiedabookie Posted: December 20, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4621853)
Too many deserving players, not enough spots. Here is my ten:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Larry Walker
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mike Piazza

Real had to decide between Schilling/Glavine and Raines/Piazza. But Raines and Piazza are among the ten best at their position all time (as are Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Thomas, Bagwell, Walker, and Trammell), so I have to go with them.
   59. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 20, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4621860)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

#11 was Schilling, couple others are HOF worthy, absurdly deep ballot
   60. pikepredator Posted: December 20, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4621861)
There were 18 guys left after a first pass elimination!! That's insane. Eliminating 2 guys with 600 HR doesn't make any sense, and yet I did it. First six are my no-doubters. The other four could easily be Biggio, Walker, Palmeiro, and Mussina. Or Sosa, Martinez, Kent, and Trammel. It's hard for me to get excited about Tom Glavine in the HOF but he did too much for me to leave him off. Schilling's post-season work pushes him over the line for me compared to the others. and I can't imagine the HOF w/o McGwire, so in he goes.

Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza

Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Tom Glavine
   61. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 20, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4621864)
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Raines
Smith
Thomas

I've explained my approach to the PED issue before, no need to go into that again.

-- MWE
   62. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 20, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4621866)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Jack Morris
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

They, along with several others on the ballot, belong in the Hall of Fame.

   63. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 20, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4621880)
What an insane ballot. I'm maybe a little more liberal but I had 20 when my first pass was done and even a critical eye left me at 13. This is just lunacy. At this point I really want to see someone like Glavine fall off the ballot just to watch the freak out.

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
   64. AROM Posted: December 20, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4621902)
Lee Smith? Seriously on this site?

Let's say Curt Flood and Marvin Miller never challenged the reserve clause. Mike, you can have one of these players for his entire career:

Lee Smith
Mike Mussina
Jeff Bagwell
Alan Trammell
Mike Piazza

Would you pick Smith? And if not, why are you voting yes for him and none of the others?
   65. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4621925)
I'm not Mike but I'd pick Lee Smith over all of those guys except Piazza (my ballot includes only Piazza of these five, Smith might be the first guy off it), because I think the Hall of Fame is a museum and Lee Smith is more historically relevant than Mike Mussina. Mike Mussina is a much better and more valuable player than Lee Smith, but in no way was he historically relevant.

I fully realize that my conception of the HoF is not the normal one, but this is why we have democracy.
   66. jdennis Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:12 PM (#4621927)
Maddux
Thomas
Glavine
Bonds
Clemens
Biggio
Schilling
Mussina
Piazza
Bagwell
   67. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4621929)
OCF - please count. If the counters can e-mail me totals after the ballots closed I can check and post the results.

I call BS on the historical relevance. Trammell was the reason Detroit won a championship. Bagwell was an MVP. Mussina was a CYA pitcher. What did Lee Smith do that was more significant?
   68. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4621930)
They, along with several others on the ballot, belong in the Hall of Fame.


You know SBB you could really have thrown primates for a loop if you left Morris out of your 10... (which on a ballot this deep you could easily do while still claiming he was hall worthy)
   69. DanG Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4621933)
[48]
Players who retired after 1980 who have been eliminated from the ballot by the 15-year eligibility limit whom I would like to vote for include Buddy Bell, Bobby Bonds, Bert Campaneris, Darrell Evans, Dwight Evans, Bobby Grich, Keith Hernandez, Graig Nettles, Willie Randolph, Rick Reuschel, Ted Simmons, Reggie Smith, Dave Stieb, and Luis Tiant.
If they had not trashed the Veterans Committee after 2001, at least one-third of these would already be elected.

The Hall is structured so that the BBWAA is tasked with inducting the no-brainers, the obvious HOFers. It's then left to the VC to define the Hall's minimum standards. Right now the VC has left almost an entire generation out in the cold, having rejected all candidates retiring from 1975-92.
   70. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4621935)
I think the Hall of Fame is a museum and Lee Smith is more historically relevant than Mike Mussina. Mike Mussina is a much better and more valuable player than Lee Smith, but in no way was he historically relevant.

I can see a historical relevance argument used to push... Tommy John, over the line, or Ichiro!

For 13 years Lee Smith was the all time saves leader, he's now 3rd.
For 10 years John Hiller was the all time single season saves leader, and you know what he was as good a pitcher as Lee Smith,so if Smith why not Hiller? If Smith goes in, Hoffman has to go in right? He unseated Smith, what about Reardon, the man Smith unseated?
   71. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:37 PM (#4621936)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell

Not an original observation, but this was... challenging. My first cut was 19 players. I dropped two 3000-hit players, and three 500-homer players (one guy obviously was in both groups), and barely found room for a 300-game winner.
   72. EddieA Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4621940)
When I was a kid sorting my baseball cards, I established the place of honor personal hall of fame for the players that reached the major milestones which I considered 500 homers, 3000 hits, 300 wins, 3000 K, or a major record. I also credited 200 wins/sub 3 era combo. For catchers it was 300 homers, 2100 hits. The middle infielders were sort of screwed by this, so I used 10 all-star game selections as a stand-in for recognized greatness at their position.
I still think those are pretty useful standards. Are there any 10 all-star game players on the current ballot that don't meet one of the above listed milestones?

   73. OCF Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4621941)
OCF - please count.

DL: I've been trying to send you an email through the site, and I've been getting errors. Could you try sending a message to me?
   74. DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4621943)
I'm getting the same errors trying to send e-mail.
   75. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 20, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4621944)
I'm assuming that any registered Primate can vote, not just HoM voters? If so, I'd go...

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas

Obviously, there are more fully qualified candidates than these, but the ballot limit makes some tough choices inevitable...
   76. Moeball Posted: December 20, 2013 at 07:07 PM (#4621949)
Already voted, so I can't vote again. Sorry, just noticed the note about alphabetizing the names. Doh!

Of course, if I did vote again, I might come up with an entirely different list - that's how many fairly qualified candidates are on this list.

This is so weird - if you got rid of the top 6 or so most obviously "no doubt" candidates based on performance only - you would still be left with at least 10 reasonably qualified candidates - and every one of them would be better than anybody Frankie Frisch was ever teammates with.
   77. dlf Posted: December 20, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4621951)
Same caveat as a bunch of folks: I want more slots.

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
Trammell

And I didn't want J.T. Snow's only appearance on this ballot go by without fondly remembering him scooping up Darren Baker.
   78. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 20, 2013 at 08:12 PM (#4621960)
every one of them would be better than anybody Frankie Frisch was ever teammates with.


I think you're underrating Mel Ott and Johnny Mize.
   79. Nolan Giesbrecht Posted: December 20, 2013 at 08:57 PM (#4621964)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker


19 guys I'd strongly consider voting for and of those, 16 I'd definitely vote for given an expanded ballot.
   80. John DiFool2 Posted: December 20, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4621965)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Frank Thomas
   81. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 20, 2013 at 09:23 PM (#4621969)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas

Sorry, joke must be made..

Anyone else find this hard?

I'm hoping that becomes the new, ' I hear Soriano is available' meme...
   82. fra paolo Posted: December 20, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4621977)

I am an avowed small-hall voter. Despite this, I found I could fill out a complete ballot of ten names.

Listed in order of number of years on the ballot.

1. Alan Trammell
2. Mark McGwire
3. Tim Raines
4. Jeff Bagwell
5. Craig Biggio
6. Barry Bonds
7. Roger Clemens
8. Mike Piazza
9. Greg Maddux
10. Frank Thomas

If I had room, I would vote for Lee Smith. But he could well be the only other player I would vote for.
   83. toratoratora Posted: December 20, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4621981)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas


The majority were no-brainers. Biggio was my last choice.I could easily see any of Kent,Martinez,Mussina, Raines,Sosa,Trammell,Walker taking his spot.
   84. TJ Posted: December 20, 2013 at 09:54 PM (#4621984)
My Ballot: Alphabetical

Bagwell
Biggio
Glavine
Maddux
Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell


My Ballot- Ranked

Maddux (Top tier of HOF starting pitchers.)
Thomas (Top of the middle tier of HOF first basemen.)
Bagwell (Top of the middle tier of HOF first basemen.)
Piazza (Top of the middle tier of HOF catchers.)
Trammell (solidly in the middle tier of HOF shortstops.)
Martinez (Solidly in the middle tier of HOF third basemen, which is the comp I would use.)
Schilling (Solidly in the middle tier of HOF starting pitchers.)
Mussina (Solidly in the middle tier of HOF starting pitchers.)
Glavine (Safely in the middle tier of HOF starting pitchers.)
Biggio (Safely in the middle tier of HOF second basemen.)


Toughest Cuts

Raines (Bottom of the middle tier of HOF left fielders)
Walker (Borderline middle tier HOF right fielder)
Kent (Borderline middle tier HOF second baseman)
Bonds, Clemens (Would vote for them if there were less than ten middle tier or better candidates. I am not against their induction, but I would vote for middle tier or better guys with less PED issues before them.)


   85. TJ Posted: December 20, 2013 at 10:05 PM (#4621987)
Already voted, so I can't vote again. Sorry, just noticed the note about alphabetizing the names. Doh!


Almost did the same myself...
   86. Mike Webber Posted: December 20, 2013 at 10:13 PM (#4621989)
I had 19 on my first pass,

Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds,
Roger Clemens,
Tom Glavine,
Greg Maddux,
Mike Mussina,
Mike Piazza,
Tim Raines,
Curt Schilling,
Frank Thomas

Biggio/Bagwell/Mussina/Trammell battle royal for the last couple of slots.
   87. Tiboreau Posted: December 20, 2013 at 10:42 PM (#4621996)
Bagwell, Jeff
Biggio, Craig
Bonds, Barry
Clemens, Roger
Glavine, Tom
Maddux, Greg
Mussina, Mike
Piazza, Mike
Thomas, Frank
Trammell, Alan

This is the 1st time I've maxed out a ballot, and there are four other names I'd love to've included on my ballot: Curt Schilling, Tim Raines, Larry Walker, & Edgar Martinez. And I consider myself a small Hall supporter. . . .
   88. Esmailyn Gonzalez Sr. Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:01 PM (#4622009)
Jeff Bagwell
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
   89. Lassus Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4622010)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   90. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:10 PM (#4622011)
That's totally absurd. It no more says you should vote for the better player than it is a recipe for lobster bisque. It only says that you should consider more than just their statsheet when voting.

It says specifically what "voting shall be based on." Not included? Strategic considerations.

the HoF is a museum that should include the most relevant players from each era -- the most historically significant -- not the best. It's designed to take a tour of baseball through the ages.

There's a reason "and Museum" is named separately from "Hall of Fame."


Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell
   91. dan b Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:12 PM (#4622012)
In their zeal to "protect the game", the Max Mercy's of the BBWAA have made a mess of the HOF. With such a glut of qualified candidates, deserving enshrinees will be falling off the ballot again.

bagwell
biggio
bonds
clemens
glavine
maddux
mussina
piazza
raines
thomas



   92. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4622013)
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Bagwell
Thomas
Glavine
Maddux
Schilling
Mussina
Raines
   93. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4622020)
Sorry. Didn't see the note about alphabetizing. Still don't.
   94. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 21, 2013 at 12:19 AM (#4622031)
With no ballot cap, I'd vote for at least 18 players and could be persuaded on perhaps as many as 20. If I was an actual BBWAA voter, my goal in filling out a ballot would be to get as many players elected as quickly as possible. So, rule number one for making my ballot is being potentially electable. As an offshoot of that, the current BBWAA electorate is not going to elect any "known" steroid users any time soon. In an unlimited ballot, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens (and Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, and Sammy Sosa) get my vote without hesitation. But dropping, say, Tom Glavine or a Craig Biggio - who could be elected by the current BBWAA electorate - for Bonds or Clemens just keeps the logjam growing and makes it less likely that anybody will ever be elected.

So, with that said, here are the 10 guys who made my ballot, in alphabetical order.

Bagwell
Biggio
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell

I really struggled to eliminate one of Mussina, Trammell, and Larry Walker. I feel bad excluding Walker - and Martinez and Kent and Bonds and Clemens and McGwire and Palmeiro and Sosa - and I feel bad that I couldn't even really bother considering Fred McGriff's case or even Lee Smith, who I think has a reasonably strong case for a relief pitcher, but not on this ballot.
   95. Baldrick Posted: December 21, 2013 at 12:52 AM (#4622035)
I have to say: while many of the actual voters are terrible, I'm glad that most of them don't seem to be engaged in the kind of 'strategic' voting that so many people are endorsing here. I understand the argument but...some of the ballots it produces seem as goofy as your random BBWAA one. More goofy, really.

I'm much more interesting in hearing who people think are the best candidates and why. I'm a lot less interested in hearing theories about what sort of candidates are best to vote for given what other people will do.
   96. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 21, 2013 at 01:15 AM (#4622041)
If Smith goes in, Hoffman has to go in right?


Wait, do people think Trevor Hoffman is or shouldn't be a Hall of Famer (in the abstract, not against the actual ballot competition)? I think of him as a deserving shoo-in.
   97. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: December 21, 2013 at 01:26 AM (#4622042)
Bagwell
Biggio
Glavine
Maddux
Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas

Probably puts me in the minority, but i did not run out of ballot space. Other than those 10, I didn't want to vote for anyone else.
   98. alilisd Posted: December 21, 2013 at 02:00 AM (#4622045)
Hoffman is a hometown hero and a great reliever. As such I think he's a shoo in. However, there is another perspective, which is that relievers are simply not that valuable, particularly those who are used the way Hoffman was, largely an inning at a time when no one is on base, and a lead of from one to three runs. From that perspective he could easily be seen as borderline to clearly out. Based on relievers in the HOF he seems clearly in. He's similar to Gossage, better than Fingers and Sutter, not as good as Wilhelm. If I had to guess, I'd say he lingers on the ballot until Rivera goes in, and then moves up the backlog eventually going in on a weak ballot year, if there is ever another one of those.,
   99. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: December 21, 2013 at 02:25 AM (#4622051)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
McGwire
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
   100. brutus Posted: December 21, 2013 at 02:58 AM (#4622053)
Maddux
Bagwell
Piazza
Thomas
Biggio
Raines
Glavine
Schilling
Mussina
Kent

I admit to some strategic voting here...I left off Bonds and Clemens because I know they won't fall off the ballot but won't make it this year either, and put on Mussina and Kent because I don't want them falling below 5% right away. When I can count 18 players I would vote for, I guess I can stomach leaving off the known steroid guys to make sure the "clean" guys get a chance at election or staying on the ballot. Apologies to Edgar, Trammell, Walker, McGwire, McGriff and Palmeiro as well who I would have voted for had there been space.
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