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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Friday, December 20, 2013

2014 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots (sorry Bob Tufts). Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end Monday on Dec 30th (4 PM EST). Results will be posted a short time later.

Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

The eligible candidates are: Moises Alou, Jeff Bagwell, Armando Benitez, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Sean Casey, Roger Clemens, Ray Durham, Eric Gagne, Tom Glavine, Luis Gonzalez, Jacque Jones, Todd Jones, Jeff Kent, Paul Lo Duca, Greg Maddux, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, Hideo Nomo, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Kenny Rogers, Curt Schilling, Richie Sexson, Lee Smith, J.T. Snow, Sammy Sosa, Frank Thomas, Mike Timlin, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker.

DL from MN Posted: December 20, 2013 at 11:20 AM | 182 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2
   101. jobu Posted: December 21, 2013 at 04:00 AM (#4622056)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas

Final choice for me came down to McGwire vs. Raines
   102. rawagman Posted: December 21, 2013 at 11:53 AM (#4622110)
I have 20 players as worthy of ballot spaces. But rules is rules...
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas

The last two cuts were Tom Glavine and Alan Trammell.
   103. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 21, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4622115)
Off-topic, but worth mentioning: For some unknown reason, I'm seeing the "EDIT" link under fra paolo's comment in #82. When I click on it, sure enough, I can actually edit his comments, even though it's too late for the changes to be put into effect. What on Earth could explain this?

If fra paolo sees this, he should click on his EDIT function and see if my "How in the hell did I get in here?" addition shows up. I've never seen anything like this before.
   104. John Mazzeo Posted: December 21, 2013 at 01:14 PM (#4622149)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

Well, that was easy...
   105. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 21, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4622165)
[103] That happens from time to time. The edit button was on your post for me and I wrote you a message showing I could edit yours. Of course the 'save' button wouldn't work.
   106. Patrick W Posted: December 21, 2013 at 02:09 PM (#4622179)
L.Gonzalez
J.Kent
E.Martinez
M.McGwire
M.Mussina
R.Palmeiro
C.Schilling
S.Sosa
A.Trammell
L.Walker

20 names are above the baseline HOF standard, and 16 of those would be in the upper half of the HOF members. In a vote like this, the bigger concern is the 5% threshold, rather than the 75% one. Keep qualified players from dropping off, in the hopes that the rules are fixed in time for next year. Therefore, my selections are for the bottom 10, in the hopes that the top 10 can fend for themselves (via your votes). I substituted in Jeff Kent from the top ten in place of #20 McGriff, due to concerns over Kent's ability to make the 5% threshold without my vote. McGriff is a borderline case for me, and I struggled whether he is over or under the line. In the end, I couldn't in good conscience leave off 10 other more worthy votes for a maybe vote.

I deem each of these candidates as worthy of election (based on the voting criteria identified), and I find nothing in the rules that requires my votes to be for the most worthy. If writers had been doing their job for the last 10 years this wouldn't be necessary, but here we are.
   107. fra paolo Posted: December 21, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4622184)
If fra paolo sees this, he should click on his EDIT function and see if my "How in the hell did I get in here?" addition shows up.

It's only there if you wrote in invisible ink.

EDIT: Also, the other day, I had a poster appear as 'ignored', even though I never used the 'ignore' button against him.
   108. theorioleway Posted: December 21, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4622186)
My ballot is listed below alphabetically, with the numbers in parentheses showing where I would rank them if that was needed:

Bagwell (5)
Bonds (1)
Clemens (2)
Glavine (8)
Maddux (3)
Mussina (7)
Piazza (4)
Schilling (6)
Thomas (9)
Trammell (10)

If allowed, I would also have voted for Raines, Walker, Biggio, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, and Martinez in that order.
   109. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 21, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4622220)
If fra paolo sees this, he should click on his EDIT function and see if my "How in the hell did I get in here?" addition shows up.

It's only there if you wrote in invisible ink.


Not surprising, since the "Save" button didn't work. But it still was weird to see the EDIT tab there under your name.

And since this remains the only site I know of that lets me login only on Chrome and not on Firefox, none of this should really surprise me all that much. I've written Jim about it several times to no avail.
   110. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2013 at 03:48 PM (#4622226)
JOLLY OLD: I'm showing the "Edit" button for post 109. ????
   111. Jittery McFrog Posted: December 21, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4622232)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine
Alan Trammell

If given more spots, I would have also voted for Biggio, McGwire, Walker, Raines, Edgar, and Sosa.
   112. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4622243)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

closest misses are Biggio, Raines, Palmeiro, and Walker

same order of quality as Jittery except flip Glavine/Mussina (barely)
   113. Howie Menckel Posted: December 21, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4622245)
ignore
   114. Booey Posted: December 21, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4622257)
I understand strategic voting on the real HOF ballot to keep deserving candidates alive, but on this site our votes have no effect on who stays and who goes, so I don't really see the point.

My top 10, alphabetically for ease:

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
McGwire
Piazza
Sosa
Thomas

Ranked:

1-Bonds
2-Clemens
3-Maddux
4-Piazza
5-Bagwell
6-Thomas
7-McGwire
8-Glavine
9-Biggio
10-Sosa

Also, if ballot space permitted:

11-Raines
12-Schilling
13-Palmeiro
14-Mussina
15-Walker
16-Trammell
17-Martinez
18-Kent
19-McGriff

I agree with Athletic Supporters post that the HOF is also about memorable and significant players in baseball history, not just those with the most overall career value (though they need at least borderline value too, IMO, before the significant achievement bonus credit should come into play), which is why McGwire and Sosa make my list over arguably better overall players. Mac/Sammy averaged 60 homers a year in their prime, and sillyball era or not, I don't ever expect to see that again. IMO that was more important to baseball history than anything done by the likes of possibly better players like Walker or Mussina.

I do however strongly disagree with Athletic Supporter that Lee Smith fits this description. I don't see his career as being anything particularly significant. The modern reliever position has only been around 40 years, and saves are a horribly overrated stat to begin with. Smith holding the saves record for many years would be about as relevant as someone holding the doubles record for a dozen years if they'd just started keeping track of doubles in the 1970's. Reardon wouldn't have gotten my vote just cuz he held the saves record for awhile, and neither would Hoffman.
   115. Booey Posted: December 21, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4622278)
IMO the Hall of Fame should be for the top few ballplayers of every era, so the standards for this era should be raised to take into account the fact that it's easier to achieve them (i.e. more players do). I don't care about minor era imbalances, but the fact that we have several players coming on the ballot for several years who meet the past historical standards of the HoF (by counting stats, OPS+, ERA+, WAR, WS, whatever) makes me think we need to raise the statistical standards.


It seems way too late to raise the HOF bar to this level now, IMO. If they had done this from the beginning, fine, but to leave out players the caliber of Bagwell, Biggio, Glavine, etc now would be incredibly inconsistent with past standards, even setting aside obvious VC type mistakes. In no other era would guys like this have been left out; I don't see any reason to give modern eras less representation than past ones.

People often seem to compare the silyball era with say, the '80's, and say there are too many HOF types in comparison, so adjustments must be made. They don't seem to account for the fact that the sillyball era encompassed almost TWO full decades, so yeah, the 1990's and 2000's combined SHOULD have twice as many HOFers as the 1980's do. And that's not even taking into consideration the larger league. David Schoenfield wrote a good article a couple weeks back about how HOF standards are getting much tougher for recent decades than they've ever been before, and suggested that an average of 1 HOFer per team seems reasonable. Therefore, the 80's should have about 26 HOFers, the 90's about 28, the 2000's about 30, etc. So if the sillyball era has 50-60 that seem like clear HOFers according to existing value stats, that doesn't really seem unreasonable at all to me. The number of HOF types that hit the ballot for the first time from 2013-2019 doesn't seem like too many to represent one era overall - they just happen to be heavily clustered together based on when they retired. There were a few lean years before the ballot got slammed and I suspect there will be a few afterwards as well. Overall I suspect it'll balance out.
   116. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: December 21, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4622289)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Madden
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas

There are at least 17 HOF-worthy candidates. Leaving so many off the list is a bummer.

Wait, Jacque Jones has been out of baseball for FIVE years??? Whoa, time flies.
   117. mex4173 Posted: December 21, 2013 at 08:04 PM (#4622294)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Walker is something of a sentimental vote, in that while I do think he's worthy, I don't think he is the 10th best player on the ballot (Mussina).
   118. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 21, 2013 at 08:18 PM (#4622296)
Big Hall guy - there are 21 players I would consider voting for, and I'd almost always vote for 10.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Greg Maddux
Curt Schilling
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

Normally I would automatically vote for Bonds and Clemens, but I also don't want some guys to go off the ballot, so my goal was to try to get as many in and take a risky guy or two and help ensure they stay on. If there was any inkling that Bonds or Clemens would either go in or fall off, they'd have my vote - but neither is going to happen this year or next, so figured I would try to save someone.

The last spot was between Edgar, Kent, Mussina and Walker - decided on Kent because it seems like 1st year guys tend to fall off faster than guys who have been on the ballot for awhile and a little homerism because I saw him so much with the Giants.

So the best of the rest, ranked:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Larry Walker
Mike Mussina
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Sammy Sosa
Rafael Palmeiro
Jack Morris
Lee Smith

   119. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 21, 2013 at 11:31 PM (#4622349)
I'm using strategic voting as well, but knowing the electorate, it's a different strategy than that I'd use with BBWAA

Trammel
Schilling
McGwire
McGriff
Kent
Sosa
Palmeiro
Kent
Martinez
Thomas
   120. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: December 21, 2013 at 11:46 PM (#4622356)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   121. bobm Posted: December 22, 2013 at 12:08 AM (#4622367)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   122. Booey Posted: December 22, 2013 at 12:36 AM (#4622378)
#119 - You think Kent is so deserving that he warrants 2 votes? :-)
   123. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: December 22, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4622380)
This is tough.

Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Larry Walker
   124. Canker Soriano Posted: December 22, 2013 at 12:50 AM (#4622381)
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
Martinez
Piazza
Raines
Sosa
Thomas
Trammell
   125. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: December 22, 2013 at 01:25 AM (#4622391)
Oops, reluctantly drop Trammell from #120.
   126. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 22, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4622448)
So it comes to narrowing down 21 guys who's names have been bandied about as having a legitimate HOF case. Yes, that includes Jack Morris.
I agree with what #114 said, since we ain't the real HOF, what's the point?


Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammel
Walker

I was really torn between Mussina, Glavine, Raines and Walker. I just think the differences between Moose and Glavine would be more pronounced if they switched leagues.
Larry Walker was just a great, great player who is actually being hurt by the park he played in. The tie breaker between him and Raines just came down to who I thought was the greater player at their best.


   127. OCF Posted: December 22, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4622467)
As a counter, I won't count #119 (SouthSideRyan) until it's fixed.
   128. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 22, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4622488)
#106: I see what you're doing but it seems to me that your Luis Gonzalez vote would be better spent on Tim Raines. You'd still be beholden to your strategy while voting for a guy who was not only a better player, but a guy who actually has a shot. unless you really think A) Lugo is better B)He has a chance at garnering upwards of 5%.
   129. lieiam Posted: December 22, 2013 at 01:33 PM (#4622499)
My ballot, in order, followed by brief explanation:

1- Barry Bonds
2- Roger Clemens
3- Greg Maddux
4- Frank Thomas
5- Jeff Bagwell
6- Rafael Palmeiro
7- Tom Glavine
8- Mike Mussina
9- Tim Raines
10-Craig Biggio

this is straight numbers from my uber-stat system blender. Straight career (no extra peak bonus). No post season credit given. catcher bonus, up to 10% (depending on how much catcher you played).

would have voted for if unlimited space:
Curt Schilling
Mike Piazza
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Alan Trammell

not sure:
Jeff Kent
Sammy Sosa
Fred McGriff

If I were to look closer at this I might move people around instead of spitting out my system ranking... but will leave my ballot as is.
   130. How Flounder got here, he hasn't a clue. Posted: December 22, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4622503)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas

Pretty much flipped a coin for the 10th spot, and Raines won. Sorry, Walker and Trammell. Biggio would be a snap vote in most years.
   131. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 22, 2013 at 02:03 PM (#4622517)
For whatever reason the edit function isn't working for my post #126. I just wanted to say that among the four I was torn about, I should have added Biggio.
   132. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: December 22, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4622603)
Maddux
Bonds
Clemens
Raines
Schilling
Trammell
Thomas
Bagwell
Glavine
Piazza

-----------

Honorable Mention Write-In recognition: Dwight Evans.
   133. tfbg9 Posted: December 22, 2013 at 08:12 PM (#4622653)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas

_____________


I believe these 4 also deserve enshrinement:

Craig Biggio
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker



   134. Scott A Posted: December 22, 2013 at 09:04 PM (#4622667)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
Walker

I'm sorry, I can't avoid strategic voting; I left off Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas, because that let me keep Trammell, Walker, and Martinez on the ballot. Leaving off three top guys who will get the vote anyway is a lesser evil than risking letting Trammell, Walker, and Martinez wither.
   135. Fridas Boss Posted: December 22, 2013 at 10:10 PM (#4622679)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Alan Trammell
Craig Biggio
Curt Schilling
   136. ThisElevatorIsDrivingMeUpTheWall Posted: December 22, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4622686)
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
Thomas
Piazza
Mussina
Glavine
Bagwell
Trammell
Raines
   137. RJ in TO Posted: December 23, 2013 at 01:10 AM (#4622738)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   138. Fog City Blues Posted: December 23, 2013 at 01:18 AM (#4622740)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Kent
Maddux
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
   139. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 23, 2013 at 11:26 AM (#4622843)
I'd vote yes for 16 if allowed.

Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Mark McGwire, Mike Mussina, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Sammy Sosa, Frank Thomas, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker

Since I can't, I'll cut it to:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas

I strongly considered dropping Maddux and Thomas (who will easily get elected) to keep Schilling and Trammell on. But I figured that would be cheating the system, so I didn't. McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa and Walker were easier cuts from the original 16 - not for steroid reasons.
   140. Rusty Priske Posted: December 23, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4622865)
The backlog has gotten insane, exacerbated by the boycotts.

I would consider voting for 19 if I could.

Ballot

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Larry Walker

Other that I would LIKE to vote for but there is no room...

Craig Biggio
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

And I would consider Jeff Kent.
   141. Morty Causa Posted: December 23, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4622875)
If I had to vote for ten:

Jeff Bagwell
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
   142. CH Luke Posted: December 23, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4622969)
Bonds, Barry
Clemens, Roger
Maddux, Mike
Martinez, Edgar
McGwire, Mark
Piazza, Mike
Raines, Tim
Schilling, Curt
Thomas, Frank
Trammell, Alan

Like many others I must complain about the lack of ballot space. Also, like others, I wish we could vote for players who no longer have ballot eligibility. That Lou Whitaker could not make it past his first year on the ballot could well be Exhibit A in why the BBWAA should not be accorded the honor of voting for Hall of Fame membership.
   143. plim Posted: December 23, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4622971)
My ballot:

Bagwell
Biggio
Glavine
Kent
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Thomas

Mussina/Schilling was tough – I’ve said that if one gets in, the other should as well. So by keeping 1, I ate up 2 slots. I guess I could’ve cut those 2 and added Edgar or Nomo, but whatever.

To make it easier, I DQed Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa. But that still left me a ton of guys. I wanted to make statement votes like Nomo, Edgar, Trammell, and Walker, but they fell victim to the ballot limit.


   144. Roberto Petagine Posted: December 23, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4623012)
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
   145. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 23, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4623024)
My ballot:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

I'm not doing any strategic voting, although I can't be sure I'd do that if I was an actual voter. In that case I'd take out Trammell (who clearly won't get in) and probably Schilling (who isn't very close at the moment) for Larry Walker and Mike Mussina, who I'm worried about dropping off the bottom.
   146. DL from MN Posted: December 23, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4623182)
I wish we could vote for players who no longer have ballot eligibility


I could nearly fill a ballot with players who didn't make the 5% cut.
   147. Riley Esco Posted: December 23, 2013 at 08:11 PM (#4623201)
Jeff Bagwell
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
   148. Newtype Posted: December 23, 2013 at 08:34 PM (#4623208)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas

Strongly considered leaving off Maddux as a strategic vote. Tough to not vote for Raines.
   149. ajnrules Posted: December 23, 2013 at 11:26 PM (#4623267)
#142...


Maddux, Mike


Yeah...don't think we can count a vote for Mike, considering he didn't even make the 2006 ballot. We can certainly count a vote for his brother Greg. XP
   150. Rob_Wood Posted: December 23, 2013 at 11:46 PM (#4623274)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
McGwire
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
   151. Soul Man Posted: December 24, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4623671)
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
Thomas
Bagwell
Glavine
Mussina
Schilling
Piazza
Biggio

Given the choice, I'd also vote for Raines, Walker, and Trammell (11-13), McGwire, Palmeiro, Martinez, and probably Sosa and Kent.
If I had a real Hall ballot, I'd vote strategically to both clear some space and keep the deserving/borderline above 5% - so probably Glavine, Thomas, Biggio, Mussina, Walker, Sosa, Palmeiro, Kent, Bagwell, McGwire. Maddux is the only sure thing as far as I'm concerned.
   152. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4623845)
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
Schilling
Mussina
Glavine
Walker
Bagwell
Piazza
Trammell
   153. DL from MN Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:59 PM (#4624967)
still have the weekend to post a ballot
   154. shoewizard Posted: December 27, 2013 at 11:47 PM (#4625019)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Curt Schilling
Tim Raines
Mike Mussina

EDIT; I have Mussina and Glavine in a virtual tie. Went with Mussina cuz I figure Glavine is a lock anyway
   155. CM in NY Posted: December 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4625021)
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
Glavine
Schilling
Mussina
Thomas
Bagwell
McGwire
Piazza
   156. Where have you gone Brady Anderson? Posted: December 28, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4625083)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
Trammell

I'm a large hall guy. I would have voted for 18 or 19 players if I could have.
   157. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 28, 2013 at 10:45 AM (#4625090)
Oops. To replace 119:

Trammel
Schilling
McGwire
McGriff
Kent
Sosa
Palmeiro
Raines
Martinez
Thomas
   158. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 28, 2013 at 10:54 AM (#4625093)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas

Probably 7 or 8 others I'd vote for too.
   159. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 28, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4625229)
Oops. To replace 119:

Trammel
Schilling
McGwire
McGriff
Kent
Sosa
Palmeiro
Raines
Martinez
Thomas[/quot
   160. bachslunch Posted: December 28, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4625232)
Bonds
Clemens
McGwire
Sosa
Piazza
Bagwell
Biggio
Raines
Trammell
Martinez

With room, would've also voted for Mussina, Kent, Walker, McGriff, Palmeiro, Maddux, F. Thomas, Glavine, Schilling, and L. Smith.

   161. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 28, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4625233)
Ignore #159 I was trying to respond to something and things went haywire and now the "edit" button disappeared.
   162. Depressoteric Posted: December 28, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4625245)
In alphabetical order:

1.) Jeff Bagwell
2.) Craig Biggio
3.) Tom Glavine
4.) Greg Maddux
5.) Edgar Martinez
6.) Mike Piazza
7.) Mike Mussina
8.) Tim Raines
9.) Curt Schilling
10.) Frank Thomas

If I had room I'd toss a vote to Trammell and Kent, and maybe even McGriff. But alas, I do not.
   163. Depressoteric Posted: December 28, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4625246)
Bonds and McGwire are going to sail into the BBTF's notional HOF and it's a damn shame, although I bow to the will of the majority.
   164. OCF Posted: December 28, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4625255)
Bonds and McGwire are going to sail into the BBTF's notional HOF

McGwire was "elected" by the BBTF electorate in 2010, 2011, and again in 2012. But not quite in 2013 (70% of the vote) and he'll be nowhere close this year.

There are other previously "elected" candidates on this ballot: Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Trammell, with Palmiero, Martinez, and Walker having fallen just short. Suffice it to say that not everyone on that list makes it this year.
   165. Tristram Posted: December 28, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4625282)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell

With so many great candidates, I decided to favor positional balance.
   166. Howie Menckel Posted: December 28, 2013 at 07:56 PM (#4625345)

The HOMers - Hall of Merit electees - on the ballot, fyi

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

most votes without yet getting elected: Schilling, Mussina, Sosa

   167. Pete L. Posted: December 28, 2013 at 08:34 PM (#4625359)
This is a fun exercise, even if ultimately meaningless. Thanks to DL from MN for doing this.

I chose to treat it as if I had an actual vote, and therefore I believe some strategic voting can be defended. Ultimately, I didn't have to, except by excluding for this year only guys who are admitted/caught PED users, just to winnow the ballot and keep a few deserving players on the ballot who might otherwise fall off. This doesn't include the guys many voters consider "rumored" and "suspected" like Bagwell or Piazza. With the exception of maybe McGwire, Sosa, and Palmeiro, I don't think any are in danger of falling off the ballot. Some of them would fall off my ballot for reasons I explain below, anyway (Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro).

Explanations: I am a moderately "Big Hall" guy, and I value peak over longevity, though I do think longevity matters enough that a certain minimum (I use WAR) counting stat is important to consider. I do not consider "milestone" counting stats to make an "automatic" Hall of Famer, if not accompanied by a HOF peak. I am comfortable using WAR, JAWS, and WAR7 as reasonable ranking systems. YMMV.

I decided to come up with some rules and then let the ballot come out as those rules determine. First was to remove from consideration the admitted or caught PED users - Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa. Second was to remove any player with a career WAR below 65 (the average HOFer - both position player and pitcher - is 69 rWAR), with an exception only for catchers (because their playing time and careers tend to be shorter, I'd use 55 WAR as a minimum for a catcher). Third is to remove any player whose JAWS score does not exceed the average JAWS score for HOF'ers at his primary position. Fourth is to remove any player whose WAR7 does not exceed 40. If after these rules are applied, I still have more than 10, I will use WAR7 as a ranking/tie-breaker.

Those rules produce this list, alphabetized:

Bagwell
Glavine
Maddux
Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Schilling
Thomas
Trammell
Walker

The only guy left standing after application of these rules who was omitted by the WAR7 tie-breaker was Raines (slightly lower peak by WAR7 than Martinez). Of course, I would vote for him if I had more than 10 votes.

I think the system would be better if voters' choices were simply "Yes" "No" and "Keep on the Ballot" (meaning they would consider voting for that player in the future), with a higher percentage requirement - something like 50% either "Yes" or "Keep on the Ballot" - to remain on the ballot. I'd prefer that system with no ten-player limit for "Yes" votes.

If that were the system, I would say "Yes" to Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Maddux, Martinez, McGwire, Mussina, Palmeiro, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Sosa,Thomas, Trammell, and Walker. My "Keep on the Ballot" list would be Smith, McGriff, and Kent. Everyone else (most notably Morris, Mattingly, Rogers, and Gonzalez, who would be the closest to "Keep on the Ballot" for me) would be "No." No exclusions for PEDs.

If I ranked those I said "Yes" or "Keep on the Ballot" to, without regard to PEDs, it would be Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Thomas, Bagwell, Schilling, Walker, Trammell, Mussina, Glavine, Piazza, Martinez, Raines, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Biggio, McGriff, Kent, and Smith.

   168. DL from MN Posted: December 28, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4625417)
Thanks to DL from MN for doing this.


Thank the ballot counters. Posting the thread is the easy part.
   169. Daryn Posted: December 28, 2013 at 11:22 PM (#4625430)
I have eight easy choices:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Mike Piazza
Frank Thomas

I think there are nine more deserving candidates but I'll add:

Mark McGwire
Rafael Palmeiro


   170. theorioleway Posted: December 29, 2013 at 07:44 PM (#4625928)
Pete/#167,

So the only C you have in your HOF are Bench, Carter, Fisk, Piazza, Berra, Dickey, and maybe Torre (with Rodriguez going in once eligible)? That seems pretty small-Hall. It's probably not as excluding for the other positions, although the earlier you go back in time, the harder it will be to make those requirements.
   171. Pete L. Posted: December 29, 2013 at 11:49 PM (#4626095)
@ 170, theorioleway: I acknowledged the 65 WAR cut-off isn't fair to catchers (that's why I set it at 55 WAR or more for catchers only). It didn't exclude Piazza, who met every other criteria except career WAR, and frankly I didn't have to think about it too deeply (or re-think it) because Piazza was included. You might be right about it being too tough a standard for catchers (especially as I didn't adjust the WAR7 standard down for catchers, either). Most of the guys you mention wouldn't have been excluded, but the standards probably should have been closer to or even below the average HOF catcher (52.4 rWAR, 33.8 WAR7).

The goal was, given the crowded ballot, to come up with 10 ballots that are all reasonable candidates, while still protecting a few down-ballot candidates by doing a one-time exclusion of known/caught PED guys. Sticking to something pretty close to the average ranges for Hall of Famers seemed a reasonable way to winnow the ballot further, but it doesn't mean I would insist on that for a less crowded ballot in the future. I think the rest of my post, detailing who I would say "Yes" to, makes that clear....

BTW, thank you to the ballot counters....
   172. Al Peterson Posted: December 30, 2013 at 09:10 AM (#4626224)
To get just to 10 ballot spots was a challenge. I'm assuming a good 13-18 players are actually worthy if I went in-depth into each candidate.

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
Trammell
   173. DL from MN Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4626430)
Balloting closes this afternoon
   174. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 30, 2013 at 01:57 PM (#4626469)
I acknowledged the 65 WAR cut-off isn't fair to catchers


(not particularly directed at you) It's fair. Catchers are less valuable because they play less. If one's HoF is supposed to contain the most valuable players (and most people here use this justification to downrank relief pitchers), it should have fewer catchers, Casey Stengel's pithiness notwithstanding.

Suppose there were a position in baseball where you could only play there for a year, and at the end of the year you had to retire. Would you advocate for equal membership of this position in the Hall of Fame? I don't think anyone would do that, not only because players at that position were less valuable but also because teams wouldn't put very good players there since they'd rather have more of their career, so you naturally wouldn't expect the talent there to be very high. Well, that's what happens with catchers, only (much) less dramatic. Players like Biggio and Mauer and Torre and heck, even lower tier guys like Josh Donaldson get moved away from catcher because their teams want more out of them, and even more so, catcher is thought of as a thankless job and most prospects don't play catcher in their amateur careers. You need to have a catcher, but there is no reason to think that the top catchers are actually as valuable as the top, say, outfielders, and if your HoF is purportedly based on value I don't see why you'd adjust for catchers.
   175. DL from MN Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4626576)
One hour left
   176. Mark Donelson Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4626586)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Maddux
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
Trammell
   177. kaline Posted: December 30, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4626601)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Thomas
Trammell
   178. DL from MN Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4626643)
Balloting is closed. I have results from one ballot counter already.
   179. Pete L. Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:19 PM (#4626656)
"It's fair. Catchers are less valuable because they play less. If one's HoF is supposed to contain the most valuable players (and most people here use this justification to downrank relief pitchers), it should have fewer catchers, Casey Stengel's pithiness notwithstanding."

I understand what you are saying, but I do believe the Hall should include the best players at each position (including DH's and relievers) - just that less valuable positions should maybe include fewer of the best at that position. So a catcher like Piazza, and a reliever like Rivera, and a DH like Edgar, or Thomas - they definitely belong, Maybe not the Lee Smiths (and don't get me started on some of the relievers who are already IN) or Jorge Posadas or Harold Baines of the world.

I guess that means the WAR and WAR7 standards I set should be adjusted by position.
   180. ajnrules Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4626676)
Balloting is closed. I have results from one ballot counter already.

This is going to be embarrassing, but I'm getting the error message when trying to send you an e-mail. :| Would you mind sending me an e-mail so I can use something other than the e-mail console?
   181. DL from MN Posted: December 30, 2013 at 05:59 PM (#4626718)
I can't send e-mail without the error message either.
   182. ajnrules Posted: December 30, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4626726)
Okay got the e-mail. I'll check it out.
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