Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, December 22, 2015

2017 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion

2017 - (December 12, 2016) - elect 3

WS war Name-Pos
394 69.1 Manny Ramirez-LF/RF*
338 68.4 Ivan Rodriguez-C
324 59.3 Vladimir Guerrero-RF
243 46.5 Mike Cameron-CF
258 42.7 Jorge Posada-C
245 38.5 Magglio Ordonez-RF
206 44.9 J.D. Drew-RF
170 46.0 Javier Vazquez-P
233 34.3 Derrek Lee-1B
236 32.1 Edgar Renteria-SS
176 34.6 Tim Wakefield-P
142 34.5 Chris Carpenter-P*
160 28.2 Melvin Mora-3B
197 21.4 Orlando Cabrera-SS
147 27.7 Carlos Guillen-SS
181 18.8 Pat Burrell-LF
141 24.3 Jason Varitek-C
138 22.3 Craig Counsell-2B/SS
116 24.9 Casey Blake-3B
124 20.8 Aaron Rowand-CF
158 14.3 Matt Stairs-RF/DH
124 13.6 Julio Lugo-SS

Required Disclosures (top 10 returnees): Jim Edmonds, Sammy Sosa, Jeff Kent, Kenny Lofton, Ben Taylor, Luis Tiant, Buddy Bell, Vic Willis, Bobby Bonds, Tommy Bridges

DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2015 at 10:22 AM | 216 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 3 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3
   201. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:47 AM (#5370613)
Brock-

Subconsciously, I knew that Bill James didn't calculate WS for the NA, so Barnes may not have been the best example. But the point still remained that the James of the NhBA would not be considered as "being fair to all eras" under the rules of the HoM. Not only does he admit to open timelining, but he doubled down by not adjusting 19th C. WS at all for shorter schedule lengths. I used that as an example of being good enough for Bill James not necessarily being the same as being good enough for the HoM, in response to Bill Simon's initial rationalization for not ranking Bill Taylor.

Anyway, back to finalizing my ballot before the deadline.
   202. Chris Fluit Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:56 AM (#5370614)
This pretty much sums it up. What I can't tell is if Bill Simon worked Ben Taylor (and others) into his system or if he's refusing to consider him at all. That makes all of the difference in the world here.

That was my reading as well. Bill said that he struggled with Taylor, not that he refused to consider him. If he considered him and decided that Taylor falls short, that's sufficient for this project. A lot of voters have made that same decision. But if he refuses to consider Negro Leaguers because it's too difficult, then that misses one of the main points of this project.
   203. Chris Fluit Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:57 AM (#5370615)
Also, is the deadline still 8 pm tonight?
   204. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 19, 2016 at 10:51 AM (#5370653)
It is still 8 p.m. As always, I am open to being convinced we should move it. I think we have 21 voters so far, which would be an all-time low, but not insanely so. My vote is in now.
   205. bjhanke Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:33 PM (#5370776)
Joe - I also said this on the ballot thread, but you posted here. I (Brock) cannot and did not find the ballot thread EVER on the BTF page. I found the Discussion thread easily, but the Ballot thread isn't there now, and never has been. The only reason I have a ballot on the ballot thread is that you sent a message to the Yahoo group for All-Star Baseball, and I happen to be in that group. You might consider taking to BTF tech support and finding out if this was a problem for more people than just me. If so, that would explain why you have so few voters - some of them may not be able to even see the ballot thread. Then you can get the BTF tech support to put the Ballot thread somewhere where everyone can see it, and extend the deadline. - Brock Hanke
   206. rawagman Posted: December 19, 2016 at 01:25 PM (#5370825)
If no strenuous objections, will post this to main ballot page this afternoon.

*Disclaimer* - A number of these comments are sorely out of date as I no longer have the free time to deal with all of the minutiae of this project.

I use a sort of prime>peak>career number with measurements including relative league standing by playing time with a strong preference for players who had good in-season durability (non-exclusive). Combined with rate stats and an admittedly subjective glove measurement, I feel this gives me both context for what the player actually achieved versus what the league around him was able to do. My general baseball philosophy may help in clarifying my rankings. I don't believe in the single stat theory of baseball, meaning I don't use WS or any flavor of WAR in my rankings, although I do lean towards the statistical bent of the BP catalog. Essentially, I follow this concept as I think a significant percentage of what contributes to winning baseball is not necessarily counted in box scores. This includes things like manager's prerogative (elective actions - steal signs, pinch hitters, batting order, pitching changes, etc.), and actions that would require a historical PBP analysis that is currently unavailable.

I also prefer what I consider "total ballplayers", guys who can do it all. I believe in positional representation and abhor the thought process that says that relievers were all failed starters and 2B are all failed SS, etc... A team cannot win without a 2B (Also not an easy position for longevity), nor without someone in LF. When I look at a player's career, I try to ask myself how I would feel about him as his manager/general manager - would his presence require special tactics to protect him, or is he completely reliable? I hope it can be seen by my rankings that the "reliable" players generally rise above the ones with clear holes in their games. There are always exceptions, but this is what I have. The stats I look at to get here tend to be traditional and rate, both offensive and defensive. Contemporary opinion also helps. I find comprehensive ranking systems to be exclusive of much of what I see on the field of play - that is, the narrative of the game. The stats for me represent measurements of aspects of the game, but beyond that, the narrative has to fill out the gaps. i.e. - Why was this number lower than expected and that number higher? Combining the stats with the narrative gives me a baseball world-view that I am happy with and feel qualified to discuss.

I fully credit military and Negro League time, but am very reluctant to provide minor league credit for anyone past the advent of the Live Ball era.

Thoughts on the 2017 newcomers. Ivan Rodriguez and Vladimir Guerrero are absolute no-doubt locks for the top of this ballot. Manny Ramirez would make it a clean sweep for first timers, but his two PED suspensions - both notably after the issue hit public consciousness, causes me to give him a one year boycott - my first. I am not a PED hard liner by any stretch, but a one year boycott seems reasonable for cases such as Ramirez'. Posada and Ordonez were both great, but not HOM great, in my view. Both debut in the 20s. Varitek comes out very close to a Thurman Munson. That is in the 90s for my counting. With Ramirez held back, my PHOM welcomes Rodriguez, Guerrero and Sosa.

1) Ivan Rodriguez - the ranking here combines what I am certain about (his longevity, hitting at his peak, what we can measure accurately about his fielding, with what I believe - the newer catcher defensive measurables that are less certain the further back we go. (PHOM)
2) Vladimir Guerrero - the type of player that can create a fan base. (PHOM)
X) Manny Ramirez - giving him a one-year boycott for his transgressions occuring after the onset of PED sanctions. As a hitter, he was among the greatest ever. He'll get my vote eventually.
3) Jim Edmonds - A have him as very close - perhaps a modern day equivalent(?) to Hugh Duffy. Some might think that as crazy, but I ding Edmonds a bit for a relative lack of in-season durability. Still, he was a fantastic hitter and a breathtaking fielder. And the BBWAA will **** him. (PHOM)
4) Hugh Duffy - Super peak, wonderful prime. Amazing bat, marvelous glove. The epitomy of reliability. (PHOM)
5) Tommy Bridges - He was really very good. A summary of a reevaluation of some of our unelected pitchers in my high backlog (Bridges, Gomez, Redding, Walters) Of those four, the white guys were all regulars for 10-11 seasons. Bucky and Lefty both had immense peaks, but I think that Lefty's non-peak years hold up better than Bucky's. Also, Lefty does not get any war discount. Dick Redding seems more similar to Walters in that his non-peak was not so impressive. His peak was still enough to leave in him solid backlog country. (I even put him in my PHOM back when I joined the project.) But Tommy Bridges wins out. He had much greater consistency. He is to pitchers what Bob Johnson was to hitters, but more of a winner (No - I'm not giving him extra credit for that). A deserving recipient of WWII credit. We have been especially splintered as to the backlog pitchers, and I urge everyone to give Tommy Bridges a closer look. (PHOM)
6) Ben Taylor - Can't find the peak, but a better prime (through the roof), career and glove than Beckley. I think he may be the player most underrated by the electorate. (PHOM)
7) Sammy Sosa - Overrated by the money stats. Even so, a word-class peak. (PHOM)
8) Trevor Hoffman - One of the greatest relief pitchers in history. That qualifier in front of the word "pitcher" is a black mark. He is best remembered as a soft tosser (outside of Nolan Ryan/Randy Johnson, how many pitchers who pitched into their 40s were still fireballing?), he had great strikeout numbers in his early years.
9) Kirby Puckett - I have read that some HOM voters consider Puckett to be a mistake of the BBWAA. I see where that sentiment may be emanating from, but I do believe that his election was earned. A wonderful ballplayer. (PHOM)
10) Dale Murphy - A player that my system loves. At his best he dominated. That refers to the years between 1979-1988. That's a 10 year prime with a very high peak. Also demonstrated very good fielding ability. Could easily move up my ballot. (PHOM)
((10) Gary Sheffield ))
11) Jeff Kent - Moved up two spots since I posted my preliminary ballot. I can only hope that the BBWAA doesn't "one-and-done" him.
12) Carlos Delgado - A fantastic hitter who probably falls on the all-time in/out line for inclusion here and in Cooperstown.
13) Lefty Gomez - looking at him in any single way hurts him. Looking at him kaleidoscopically has him as the one of the best available pitchers in my eyes (PHOM)
14) Billy Wagner - Dominant, but short lived career. Fully in the "3-out save guy" category. Hard to accrue enough value under that usage pattern.
15) Dick Redding - One of the toughest for me to accurately place. I now think his teens peak was all he needed. I want to be sure I am adequately valuating pitching, so Redding has moved up a few spots in my ballot. (PHOM)
16) Vern Stephens - Will we look at Nomar down the road like we look at Vern now? (look down two slots. This questions, asked in the "1970s" was answered for "2015".) Great bat, good glove. (PHOM)
17) Bus Clarkson - A new defensive readjustment moves to the cusp. (PHOM)
18) Nomar Garciaparra - One more healthy year would probably bump him up 6-12 spots, but he didn't have it. Such a shame.
19) Fred McGriff - He did not dominate as a bat to the extent of an Edgar Martinez, but consistent above-average performance and fielding that was moderate (I know that not everyone agrees), place the Crime Dog in the heart of my ballot. A better version of Jake Beckley. Here's hoping that it doesn't take McGriff quite as long to receive his dues. Recently dinged through new look at fielding. (PHOM)
20) Jorge Posada - A great hitter for any position, he is held back by a) very poor fielding reputation and measurables as well as a relatively brief career.
21) Magglio Ordonez - Pure hitter. Two more full seasons would have likely placed him on the ballot. Alas.
22) Gavvy Cravath - No longer the worst fielder in my top 120 candidates (Frank Howard). Probably still the most dominant hitter (as compared to his peers), though. (PHOM)
23) Bob Johnson - I don't know why it took me this long. Great all-round LF. Very durable. (PHOM)
24) Tony Oliva - Career not as short as I thought. Had solid durability for the seasons he was around for. A world class hitter. (PHOM)
25) Dizzy Dean - Diet Sandy Koufax. 0 calories (career), no sugar (prime).
((25a)Andre Dawson))
26) Orlando Cepeda - Going with my numbers. I support him, but the strength of many of the new guys as well as the recently dregded up arguments for others drops him off ballot.(PHOM)
27) Bobby Veach - He did it all well. As complete a LF as is available today. (PHOM)
28) Al Oliver - I was surprised by the similarities between Oliver and Reggie Smith. Very convincing peak and a glove that scores quite well. Career length is nice as well.
29) Don Mattingly - In the interest of my belief in a big hall for Cooperstown, I support Mattingly's induction. That said, for this project, he looks to be just the wrong side of the door. New look at fielding raises him up a few spots.
30) Albert Belle - Fits in rather nicely with the next three on this list.
   207. rawagman Posted: December 19, 2016 at 01:34 PM (#5370834)
Of the required disclosures:
Jim Edmonds - 3
Sammy Sosa - 7
Jeff Kent - 11
Kenny Lofton - 72 - why Lofton and not Amos Otis or Brett Butler?
Ben Taylor - 6
Luis Tiant - 38 - I prefer pitchers who have more dominant seasons - but don't we all?
Buddy Bell - 43- I'm not so confident in the defensive metrics to move him any higher.
Vic Willis - 56 - see Tiant comment
Bobby Bonds - 32 - what separates Bonds Sr from Rocky Colavito?
Tommy Bridges - 5

Phil Rizzuto - 50 - I give war credit, but at career averages, not peak.
Gavy Cravath - 22
Bucky Walters - 57 - the peak was fantastic. The rest wasn't good enough.
Sal Bando - 82 - third best 3B of his era. I don't get the fuss
   208. Al Peterson Posted: December 19, 2016 at 02:22 PM (#5370887)
I'll get this over to the ballot thread right now, sorry for the delay.
2017 ballot thread listing. Three new folks to fold into the ballot. Only slight movements after that insertion.
Methodology in brief: The system used for my ranking entails a little bit of everything including WS, WAR, OPS+/ERA+. Ratings include positional adjustments, additions to one’s playing record for minor league service, war, and NeL credit and for our real oldtimers some contemporary opinion thrown in. The results of this work tend to favor prime/peak players over career types but that is not 100% tried and true. Last year’s placement is in parenthesis.

1. Ivan Rodriguez (-). Longevity, solid hitter, excellent glove, all at the catching position which is never easy to find and substain. Can’t go wrong with Pudge in this spot.

2. Manny Ramirez (-). Indifferent fielder who compensated by being one of the best RH sluggers and high average guys the game has ever seen. It’s fine by me, Manny can be Manny in the HOM.

3. Dick Redding (6). Career was long – decent peak along the way. Outstanding fastball in his day according to James/Neyer book. So he didn’t get into the Hall of Fame; maybe the information collected by HOF committee wasn’t pertinent to Redding’s prime years. He deserves some WWI credit, thus patching up a bald spot in his prime years as 1918 and 1919 were affected. The last NeL pitcher I’d deem as worthy of induction.

4. Bobby Bonds (5). Even with the constant trades, drinking problem and whatnot his combination of speed/power made him a very valuable player. He wasn’t the next Mays, or as good as his son, but we’re talking about a RF who could steal bases and field his position. All five tools on display.

5. Tommy Leach (7). Combination hot corner/centerfielder could field a little, hit a little. Second all-time in inside-the-park home runs to Wahoo Sam Crawford. Someone else stated he was uniquely valuable in his particular era and I agree he meant more in the particular era he performed in. Useless trivia: Still holds World Series record with 4 triples in a single series.

6. Vladimir Guerrero (-). Doesn’t surprise me too much Vlad comes in this high. The long prime candidate tends to do well in my system. Again an adventure in the field and the bases – those things along with the free-swinging ways made him a fan favorite.

7. Phil Rizzuto (8). I’ve done my minor league & WWII absence calibration so Scooter scoots to ballot position. Glove first but the offense during prime years was nothing to sneeze at either. Holy Cow!

8. Tony Mullane (9). Old time pitcher who threw plenty well, a good hitter to boot. Had some playing time issues since he missed seasons due to being blacklisted. He’s amongst the best of his era when accounting for the time outside of baseball due to conflicts with different leagues. Goes on the all-Nickname team as well.

9. Kenny Lofton (10). I’ve come around on Lofton some from earlier ballots. The defense and baserunning do add up over a long career and offset batting numbers that looks more mid-ranged. A well-traveled player who helped teams win.

10. Sammy Sosa (11). Peak power that was enough to make people start walking him. This increased his value as it upped his OBP skills, doubling the value added. Early in his career he had base stealing and defense as assets.

11. Mickey Welch (12). 300 game winner in the house. Was it due to luck, run support, bad opponents? Still a feat to accomplish, sometimes I need to remind myself that and not totally overlook Smilin’ Mickey. Seemed to pitch well against the other front line starters of his day.

12. Jim Edmonds (13). Probably him and Lofton should duke it out for pecking order. They are very close but I’ll drop him a couple notches. King of the diving grab.

13. Buddy Bell (14). The bat was sufficient but it was defense where he shone. Not overly praised in his time due to being on non-playoff teams. Sort of a Rick Reuschel type in that his build made you question ability to play. His reflexes were superior when it came to picking it at 3B.

14. Bob Johnson (15). Always a bit underrated in Win Shares due to quality of teams he played on. His career has war years that need discount. But also a couple years at the beginning of his career were in the PCL where he was more than major league quality. The tail of his career is nonexistent since the 1946 avalanche of returning War players pushed him back to the minors.

15. Luis Tiant (17). Maybe a tier below the other 1970s pitching HOMers but that is a pretty good tier to be near. Spread in some peak years, ineffective years, overall is a standard borderline case.

Next up, but off ballot:
16. Norm Cash
17. Jeff Kent. Might have a little too low since I’m heavy on outfielders. I’ll stash Mr. Carwash just off ballot for now.
18. Vic Willis. A lot like Tiant. Has seen my ballot before, could again. Think just want to get in the elite pitchers from the 1990s/2000s before the next tier from other eras.
19. Bucky Walters
20. Bus Clarkson
21. Ben Taylor – The numbers seem to indicate top 1B during dead ball era, either MLB or NeL. Not a horrible choice in anyone’s top 15.
22. Fred McGriff
23. Frank Chance
24. Bob Elliott
25. Tommy John
Disclosures:
Newcomers – Jorge Posada: Probably going to need longer career and bit better defense to ballot. In 50-75 range.
Top 10 – Tommy Bridges: In the 26-35 range. In a similar place that houses the next group of pitchers. Is he much different from Willis/Walters/John? Value wise not much. Quality twirler…
   209. Chris Fluit Posted: December 19, 2016 at 02:23 PM (#5370889)
Where do you draw that line? I mean, I could see Wagner and Hoffman in - and you could say it’s a different era, but Rivera shows a true great can still put up a reasonable Hall of Fame type total even in the modern era of closers. Personally I think we should give John Hiller a much longer look, especially with his off the charts 1973 season. For now Wagner and Hoffman sit out, but I’m open to considering them down the line. Should we give Hiller, Smith and McDaniel a better look if we think Wagner and Hoffman deserve to be in? Was Fingers a mistake? I don't have all of the answers, but I think they are important questions.


I'm on the same page you are, Joe. I think it's reasonable to elect a few closers/relievers to the HoF. And I'd be happy to see Hoffman get in. Yet there's such a cluster of players with similar stats that it's hard to know where to draw the line, unless it's really high. I think the HoM has it mostly right with Eckersley, Rivera and Wilhelm.

To tackle your questions: Yes, if we're going to vote for Wagner and Hoffman, then we definitely should take a look at earlier relievers such as Hiller and McDaniel. McDaniel's high WAR is partly a product of playing time (21 seasons plus a couple as a starter) but Hiller definitely has the peak seasons that I'd take him ahead of Hoffman, Wagner, Sutter or Smith. I also think that the HoF should induct Quisenberry if they induct Smith and Hoffman to go along with Sutter even though Quiz doesn't do quite as well by career WAR.

Yes, Fingers was a mistake. I say that as someone who voted for him at the time. I think we perpetuated the mistake of the BBWAA. Fingers was the first pure reliever/closer to really come under consideration (Wilhelm spent considerable time as a starter) and we weren't sure how to handle him so we gave him undue acclamation and voted him in quickly. I'm glad we decided after the fact that Fingers shouldn't have been the standard and didn't compound our mistake by also voting in Sutter, Smith et al.
   210. DL from MN Posted: December 19, 2016 at 02:54 PM (#5370914)
I am fine with Gossage, Wilhelm and Rivera as the only relievers that meet the standard. Smoltz is in as a starter and Eckersley is a hybrid who doesn't get in without examining his entire career.
   211. theorioleway Posted: December 19, 2016 at 05:00 PM (#5371042)
One potential boost for Fingers (I wasn't here when he got elected) is his postseason resume. You can argue that that's much more important for relievers than all other players, and it's one where Fingers shines.
   212. Ardo Posted: December 20, 2016 at 03:37 AM (#5371231)
Fingers is certainly one of the weaker Hall of Merit selections, but I don't see him as an outright mistake (and we spent several years considering him). The case for Fingers, as I recall, had two main arguments:

- He was pretty much the only reliever to hold up for an extended period of time under 1970s "fireman" workloads.
- 1981, the strike year, was his best season, and a straight-line adjustment makes it one of the most valuable relief seasons ever.
   213. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 26, 2016 at 04:52 PM (#5374240)
Great points theorioleway and Ardo regarding Fingers, his 1.22 postseason WPA narrowly misses the level of John Smoltz and Curt Schilling and is 4th all-time. His career value slots in around 4th best behind tier 1 relievers Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Goose Gossage, but his peak and post-season give him a clear lead for 4th greatest reliever of all-time:

Career WAR adjusted for strike seasons from Baseball Reference, Baseball Gauge, Baseball Prospectus, Fangraphs, Kiko Sakata, Average of all:

B-R _B-G _B-P _F-G _T-T Avg Rk Reliever
56.6 62.7 31.2 39.7 30.1 44.1 _1 Mariano Rivera
50.7 55.2 27.5 27.8 21.9 36.6 _2 Hoyt Wilhelm
44.5 49.0 30.3 32.4 19.7 35.2 _3 Goose Gossage

31.5 35.2 32.3 25.0 17.8 28.4 _4 Lindy McDaniel
29.8 37.5 27.4 27.4 17.4 27.9 _5 Lee Smith
28.9 33.1 30.0 27.2 19.8 27.8 _6 Trevor Hoffman
27.4 34.5 27.4 29.6 19.7 27.7 _7 Rollie Fingers
27.9 35.4 30.0 24.5 16.3 26.8 _8 Billy Wagner

24.3 28.1 26.1 27.3 16.5 24.5 _9 Dave Righetti (89 GS)
28.5 32.3 24.0 19.1 17.2 24.2 10 Stu Miller (93 GS)
23.6 28.1 26.5 24.1 14.9 23.4 11 Doug Jones
25.7 30.4 24.6 20.4 14.4 23.1 12 Bruce Sutter
25.2 33.4 20.8 17.5 16.8 22.7 13 John Franco
26.6 29.9 20.0 19.8 15.7 22.4 14 Joe Nathan
24.1 29.7 23.5 17.7 16.3 22.3 15 Francisco Rodriguez
31.5 35.2 15.0 16.5 10.4 21.7 16 John Hiller

25.7 33.8 11.9 21.0 15.1 21.5 17 Bob Stanley (85 GS)
27.1 33.0 18.0 15.4 12.8 21.3 18 Kent Tekulve
23.7 27.5 20.0 21.0 12.6 21.0 19 Tom Henke
24.3 30.7 21.6 14.6 13.1 20.9 20 Tug McGraw
26.5 33.0 12.9 15.1 15.0 20.5 21 Dan Quisenberry
23.7 27.7 17.2 19.0 14.0 20.3 22 Jonathan Papelbon

25.5 28.0 19.8 13.8 12.0 19.8 23 Jesse Orosco
21.0 25.5 20.0 17.0 13.1 19.3 24 John Wetteland
24.1 30.5 14.4 15.0 12.3 19.3 25 Sparky Lyle
20.3 25.2 20.1 16.3 11.5 18.7 26 Gene Garber
21.6 30.3 12.9 15.3 11.9 18.4 27 Mike Marshall
23.1 25.0 18.0 13.1 11.9 18.2 28 Jeff Montgomery
21.8 24.2 17.5 13.2 11.2 17.6 29 Keith Foulke
16.9 21.5 18.2 19.0 12.0 17.5 30 Robb Nen
   214. Howie Menckel Posted: December 26, 2016 at 06:28 PM (#5374269)

Joe D also had some interesting research re Fingers on, iirc, his remarkable ability to strand runners in scoring position. If he was above average there, it's a bonus that the modern guys don't get....
   215. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 26, 2016 at 06:37 PM (#5374272)
Joe D also had some interesting research re Fingers on, iirc, his remarkable ability to strand runners in scoring position. If he was above average there, it's a bonus that the modern guys don't get....


cardsfanboy posted a list of relievers ranked by % of inherited runners who scored at comment #302 of the Thibs tracker thread on the main site. The context of doing this for cardsfanboy is that Trevor Hoffman was freakishly good at this. Fingers ranks #11 on the list but as cardsfanboy points out "old time pitchers are hurt by this metric". The only guy ahead of Fingers whose career overlapped significantly with his is probably Kent Tekulve. This is all runners, not just those in scoring position, but Fingers looks pretty good for his time.
   216. Howie Menckel Posted: December 26, 2016 at 08:26 PM (#5374293)
here is the Rollie Fingers HOM player thread

wow, that is 10 years and 2 weeks ago. some good stuff there, plus I had a couple of posts.
:)
Page 3 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
1k5v3L
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.5989 seconds
42 querie(s) executed