Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, December 19, 2016

2018 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion

Vladimir Guerrero (267), Sammy Sosa (255), Luis Tiant (189), Jeff Kent (179), Vic Willis (161), Kenny Lofton (151), Bobby Bonds (133), Ben Taylor (130), Buddy Bell (130) and Tommy Bridges (106) will be the top 10 returnees for 2018.

Jorge Posada (95), Bob Johnson (86), Urban Shocker (80), Dick Redding (79), Phil Rizzuto (79), Wally Schang (79) and Sal Bando (68) rounded out the top 20.

2018 - (December 4 - December 18, 2017) - elect 4

Name               HOFm HOFs Yrs WAR  WAR7 JAWS
Chipper Jones       180  70   19 85.0 46.6 65.8
Jim Thome           156  57   22 72.9 41.5 57.2
Scott Rolen          99  40   17 70.0 43.5 56.8
Andruw Jones        109  34   17 62.8 46.4 54.6
Johan Santana        82  35   12 51.4 44.8 48.1
Johnny Damon         90  45   18 56.0 32.8 44.4
Jamie Moyer          56  39   25 50.4 33.2 41.8
Carlos Zambrano      30  23   12 44.6 39.0 41.8
Omar Vizquel        120  42   24 45.3 26.6 36.0
Chris Carpenter      70  26   15 34.5 29.6 32.0
Livan Hernandez      41  16   17 31.1 27.8 29.4
Orlando Hudson       20  18   11 30.9 27.2 29.1
Kevin Millwood       34  20   16 29.4 24.8 27.1
Kerry Wood           24  14   14 27.7 25.0 26.4
Carlos Lee           78  35   14 28.2 23.4 25.8
Ben Sheets           19  11   10 23.4 22.3 22.8
Jack Wilson          12  16   12 23.5 20.9 22.2
Hideki Matsui        36  21   10 21.3 21.2 21.3
Aubrey Huff          30  20   13 20.2 22.5 21.3
Adam Kennedy         12  16   14 21.0 20.4 20.7
Jeff Suppan          11   9   17 17.4 18.3 17.8
Carl Pavano          16   6   14 16.9 18.5 17.7
Francisco Cordero    77   9   14 17.2 14.6 15.9
Miguel Batista       10   3   18 12.7 15.9 14.3
Jason Isringhausen   71   7   16 13.2 12.2 12.7
Brian Fuentes        48   9   12 10.7 11.3 11.0
Brad Lidge           48  10   11  8.2 12.4 10.3
Scott Podsednik      15  15   11  6.9  7.8  7.4
Guillermo Mota       13   7   14  6.3  7.6  7.0
JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 19, 2016 at 09:12 PM | 211 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 3 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3
   201. Rob_Wood Posted: April 28, 2017 at 04:47 PM (#5444517)
There is no way you are going to get me to swallow that Tommy Bond (with 5 decent seasons) is more valuable than Barry Bonds because he was able to take the mound and not walk anyone.

My position on this matter is clear. I have voted in each and every Hall of Merit election. Our first election was 1898 and our latest was 2017, making a grand total of 120 separate elections. In each election a voter votes for his top 15 players. 120 * 15 = 1,800. So since this project began, I have listed 1,800 names on my collective body of Hall of Merit election ballots.

In none of my 1,800 ballot slots have I ever listed the name of Tommy Bond. And I will not be including the name of Tommy Bond on any subsequent future ballot regardless of the information I posted above.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer. WAR is a problematic stat for 19th century pitchers. I will repeat it a thousand times if need be. As CPASR is 100% hitched to WAR, CPASR is a problematic stat for 19th century pitchers. I included them in the above lists for completeness purposes only. If you'd like to do what I do, you can mentally cross out any 19th century pitcher you see on the list and pretend that you never saw those names or figures.

Please don't throw the CPASR stat into the dustbin simply because you believe that WAR for 19th century pitchers are silly.
   202. Rob_Wood Posted: April 30, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5445149)
I have calculated the CPASR for the additional players that Bleed the Freak suggested.

Bobby Mathews       2.175 (19th century pitcher, ignore?)
Charlie Buffinton   1.410 (19th century pitcher, ignore?)
John Clapp          0.706
Dave Orr            0.630
Jack Rowe           0.622
Orator Shafer       0.589
Abner Dalrymple     0.488
Mickey Tettleton    0.428
Del Crandall        0.408
Darren Daulton      0.379
Brian McCann*       0.360
Tug McGraw          0.323
Doug Jones          0.320

   203. Bleed the Freak Posted: April 30, 2017 at 07:02 PM (#5445302)
Nice turnaround time Rob!, 11 others I have with solid ratings in Baseball-Reference WAR:
Davy Force
Paul Goldschmidt
Tip O'Neill
John Morrill
Fred Pfeffer
Whit Wyatt
Levi Meyerle
Gary Peters

3 others:
Tony Pena - catcher
Sparky Lyle - reliever
Manny Machado - active guy
   204. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 02, 2017 at 11:10 PM (#5447321)
Thanks for all of this, Rob! I really like the concept of a sliding replacement value. I definitely like the idea that in-season replacement level is lower than "offseason" (?) replacement level. I also like the concept of pennants added. I need to sit down with your formulas and see if I can figure out a way to make it work with my Player won-lost records. But very interesting food for thought.
   205. Rob_Wood Posted: May 02, 2017 at 11:43 PM (#5447338)
Thanks for the nice comment Kiko. It goes without saying that I am a big fan of all of your stuff. (Ditto for Bleed the Freak.)

One of the most rewarding aspects of the Hall of Merit has been all the great research associated with the project (coming from many great researchers). I don't want to name names for fear that I will overlook somebody, but there has been a heck of a lot of great research. Research on minor-league equivalents, negro-league players, 19th century, scarcity/replacement-levels, pennants-added, and many other key elements of baseball.

Anyway, here is the latest batch of new CPASR for the additional players Bleed the Freak listed just above.
Davy Force        0.667
Levi Meyerle      0.577
Tip O'Neill       0.552
John Morrill      0.492
Paul Goldschmidt* 0.479
Gary Peters       0.424
Whit Wyatt        0.419
Manny Machado*    0.405
Fred Pfeffer      0.367
Sparky Lyle       0.337
Tony Pena         0.295
Of course, any and all questions about the entire body of CPASR results or the methodology are more than welcome.

   206. Bleed the Freak Posted: May 03, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5447882)
Thanks Rob, if you decide to expand into Kiko's W-L or Baseball Gauge DRA WAR, I have some additional suggested candidates (although they don't fair so well with Baseball Reference WAR:

Kiko: Mike Hampton, Bret Boone, Dick Donovan, Greg Luzinski, Vic Raschi, John Wetteland, Dave Righetti, Jayson Werth, Fritz Peterson, Bob Forsch, Shane Reynolds, Edwin Encarnacion.

Gauge: Mike Marshall, Bob Stanley, Jason Varitek, John Roseboro, Shin Soo-Choo, Kyle Seager, Nelson Cruz, Hank Sauer, Burt Shotton, Dutch Ruether, Happy Felsch, Giancarlo Stanton.
   207. Bleed the Freak Posted: May 05, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5449481)
Hey Kiko, he's long been elected, but Willie Mays fairs quite poorly in your component 5 measure, hits versus outs on balls in play.

http://baseball.tomthress.com/StatTables/FieldingStats.php?id=maysw101
He shows as 19th worst in component 5 fielding wins: http://baseball.tomthress.com/Leaders/Leaders.php?y=&y1;=&y2;=&l=&a=c&n=99&s=c5
Is he really that bad, did he have less chances with the pitching staffs in his career, some mix or otherwise?

And it's a small thing, but an error is coming up when you click on component fielding links:
http://baseball.tomthress.com/StatTables/Glossary/Component5.html

The links are broke in the fielding article for the components:
http://baseball.tomthress.com/HallofMerit/Fielding.php
Incorrect link:
http://baseball.tomthress.com/Articles/Component6.php
Correct link:
http://baseball.tomthress.com/HallofMerit/Component6.php
   208. Bleed the Freak Posted: May 07, 2017 at 08:40 PM (#5450412)
Recent discussion on a fine Negro Leaguer with no thread: Rev Cannady:
http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?playerID=canna01wal

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?130322-HOF-cases-of-Negro-Leaguers-using-MLEs-of-ERA-and-OPS-from-Seamheads&p=2634871#post2634871

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?130322-HOF-cases-of-Negro-Leaguers-using-MLEs-of-ERA-and-OPS-from-Seamheads&p=2634810#post2634810
   209. Bleed the Freak Posted: May 11, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5453478)
84. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 09, 2017 at 11:29 PM (#5380804)
Finally, shameless self-promotion: coming in June from McFarland, Player Won-Lost Records in Baseball: Measuring Performance in Context


Hello Kiko, what website do you receive the most $ from, I see a number of different avenues to purchase this?

Thanks!
   210. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 11, 2017 at 08:27 PM (#5453868)
Hello Kiko, what website do you receive the most $ from, I see a number of different avenues to purchase this?

Thanks!


To be perfectly honest, I don't know. If I had to guess, I would guess going through McFarland, but I don't know. By all means, go with whatever makes the most sense for you (i.e., is cheapest?). I'm not really in it for the money: I'm fairly sure the market for this book won't allow me to retire and live off the royalties (now, my second book - kidding).
   211. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 11, 2017 at 08:42 PM (#5453880)
Hey Kiko, he's long been elected, but Willie Mays fairs quite poorly in your component 5 measure, hits versus outs on balls in play.


Comments #209-#210 segue nicely into my answer here. I actually wrote a bit about this very topic in the book. Short answer: it's entirely possible that I'm wrong and the honest answer is that I don't know exactly why Mays fares so poorly. Longer answer / attempt to defend my ratings: buy the book - okay, summary: Mays was very good at Component 5 when he was very young (through 1956, age 25); it's possible that he lost a step or two as he aged and people either didn't notice or didn't care because, you know, he's Willie Freaking Mays out there.
Page 3 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
SBB, Live from the Alt-Center
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.1810 seconds
42 querie(s) executed