Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, March 07, 2004

50th Anniversary Team

Hey, as Ron Wargo said in the 1921 ballot discussion, this is the 50th anniversary of the forming of the NA, didn’t even realize it.

Since it will probably change after discussion, I’ll post mine in the discussion and not here, post yours and discuss!

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: March 07, 2004 at 08:46 AM | 17 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 07, 2004 at 04:54 PM (#522589)
What is the year range for this project? I would have thought up to 1921, but Joe's selections negate that idea since Wagner, Mathewson and Lajoie are no where to be seen. Since Joss does make it, I know we're not selecting only 19th century players.
   2. Marc Posted: March 07, 2004 at 05:30 PM (#522590)
Joe's team seems to be limited to retired/eligible players. Mine, too, which really makes it a 19th century team. Ed Walsh is the only player who did not have his (or, a) peak in the 19th century who could conceivably make my team, so I am making mine a 19th century team.

First Team
   3. Marc Posted: March 07, 2004 at 06:44 PM (#522592)
PS. I'm not going to pick a peak value team because that's what mine already is, with the exception of 3b. Sutton had a great 3 year peak, probably better than Ed Williamson's and I think better than Jimmy Collins.' But I think John McGraw would have to be the peak 3b.

The only other possible change would be Hughie Jennings for G. Wright at ss, but that's a close call. Hines-Gore-Hamilton are close in cf, and Bennett and Ewing are very close at c. And it's tempting to suggest Caruthers for the peak team but over whom? Maybe with a 5 man rotation which is no more an anachronism than a 4 man rotation in the 19th century.
   4. Marc Posted: March 07, 2004 at 08:52 PM (#522593)
And PPS. ed is right; once I have Brouthers and Connor on my team, even if I pick Big Dan first, I'd put Connor at 1st. Kinda like Cobb and Speaker. If I can only have one I'll take Cobb, but if I can have both no way Tris is not in cf.

And PPPS. As to players retired by '21, well, I haven't done the analysis yet, not that it would be so hard to imagine Lajoie and Wagner moving in. But the 19th century guys need all the recognition they can get.
   5. Chris Cobb Posted: March 07, 2004 at 10:02 PM (#522594)
Since there are no rules for this, I'm looking at all players who have played prior to 1921, including players recently retired and players still active. These last are judged by what they have accomplished through the 1920 season. Ty Cobb, for example, already has more career win shares after the 1920 season than anyone else who has played center field, so he's an easy choice. To make sure that 19th-century players get their due, I have picked two quarter-century teams and well as a first-,second-, and third-string half-century team. In my picks, I considered peak and career, but we have enough all-time-great types who are great by any measure that I found that I seldom had to weigh peak vs. career.

1871-1895 All-Quarter-Century Team
   6. Marc Posted: March 08, 2004 at 09:25 PM (#522598)
In formulating all-decade, all-quarter and half century teams and other all-time type teams I like some flexibility. So here's a formula that I use.

Cobb in RF (or in CF for that matter) gets full credit for whatever he did at that position (adjWARP1 or adjWS or whatever) and half credit for what he did at another position. Until the Babe, that formula makes Cobb the greatest RF (as well as the greatest CF) through 1930 or so. And since Speaker is the number two CF and has more value than any of the RF, I have them both on my deadball or quarter-century team.

That is also how I get Stan Musial on my teams at 1B while also getting Williams in LF and whomever (depending on whether it's a decade or quarter-century team or whatever). I'd rather recognize the top 9 guys, within a reasonable interpretation of their position history, than not.
   7. OCF Posted: March 08, 2004 at 09:33 PM (#522599)
When doing all-star teams, I've always liked moving players to other positions if the defensive spectrum or skills seem to allow it. Hence post-season one-year all-star teams in the late 90's in which the AL team regularly had shortstops at 3B and sometimes 2B, and in which the DH was often a regular 1B or LF. From that point of view, I'd have no qualms about putting Cobb in RF, and would consider George Davis at 3B if that would make a better team.
   8. Chris Cobb Posted: March 08, 2004 at 09:59 PM (#522600)
Ed asked:

And Chris Cobb, why doesn't Speaker make it into your 1871-1920 top 3 CF?

A reasonable question to ask, and I'm not willing to defend my selection of Hamilton over Speaker very strenuously.

My judgment was that Speaker had not accumulated quite enough value through 1920 to pass Hines or Hamilton. It would have been clear in Jan. 1921 that, if Speaker's career continued, he would pass Hamilton very soon, of course. Another factor in my selection in this case is that, when I was in doubt on the half-century team, I went with an 1890s player, because they were systematically disfavored by the quarter-century splits.
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 08, 2004 at 10:36 PM (#522602)
Ed:

I agree with your viewpoint, though there's no reason we can't make ballots using both points of view.
   10. Marc Posted: March 08, 2004 at 11:50 PM (#522604)
>Yes, it would be a better team, for example, with ARod at SS, Nomar at 3B and Jeter at 2B, but would that be right?

What OCF said was he might put Cobb in RF and G. Davis at 3B. Your ARod-Nomar-Jeter infield is not the same thing at all, not that someday you won't be able to juggle ARod from SS to 3B, just like Ripken.

>there's no reason we can't make ballots using both points of view.

I don't agree. I wouldn't put G. Davis at 2B or Speaker in RF or Jeter at 2B. I don't know about Anson at 3B, I don't know how many games he played there though I am pretty sure it was not "a couple." In fact, James has him as his all-star 3B for one decade or other.
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 09, 2004 at 12:51 AM (#522605)
I don't agree.

We can't have a ballot like OCF's, plus one like Ed's?

What I was agreeing with Ed about was the spirit of the All-Star team, just in case I wasn't clear enough.
   12. Marc Posted: March 09, 2004 at 12:56 AM (#522606)
OCF and Ed can select who they like, obviously. I wanted to clarify that I wouldn't put a player at some position he never played. But Cobb in RF, Crawford in CF, Ruth in LF for that matter, Deacon White or G. Davis at 3B, etc., no problem.
   13. EricC Posted: May 16, 2004 at 10:40 PM (#631291)
OK, so I'm 5 "years" late on this, but I didn't finish evaluating through the 1920 season until now. I created my 1871-1920 all-star team using the same system that I use to make my ballots. Players still active in 1920 are eligible if they have accumulated enough career; Babe Ruth falls short. I put players only in their primary position actually played, though I used some discretion with Jim O'Rourke to optimize the outfield.

P1: Cy Young
P2: Walter Johnson
P3: Kid Nichols
P4: Christy Mathewson
C: Buck Ewing
1B: Cap Anson
2B: Eddie Collins
3B: Frank Baker
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Jim O'Rourke
CF: Ty Cobb
RF: Sam Crawford
UT: Deacon White
bench: Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Dan Brouthers
   14. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 16, 2004 at 11:08 PM (#631301)
My ballot for all players up to 1921:

P1: Cy Young
P2: Christy Mathewson
P3: Kid Nichols
P4: Al Spalding or John Clarkson (can't decide; the Big Train obviously takes over not that long after, though the Great Alexander will have a tough fight for a spot here). 
C: Deacon White
1B: Cap Anson
2B: Nap Lajoie (a few more years until Collins takes over)
3B: Ezra Sutton (not enough seasons for Baker at this point, though his peak makes it close)
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Ed Delahanty
CF: Jim O'Rourke (more value as a centerfielder than a leftfielder; Cobb and Speaker will pass Orator Jim not that much after '21.)
RF: Sam Crawford
   15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 16, 2004 at 11:13 PM (#631305)
My ballot for all players up to 1921:

P1: Cy Young
P2: Christy Mathewson
P3: Kid Nichols
P4: Al Spalding or John Clarkson (can't decide; the Big Train obviously takes over not that long after, though the Great Alexander will have a tough fight for a spot here).
C: Deacon White
1B: Cap Anson
2B: Nap Lajoie (a few more years until Collins takes over)
3B: Ezra Sutton (not enough seasons for Baker at this point, though his peak makes it close)
SS: Honus Wagner
LF: Ed Delahanty
CF: Jim O'Rourke (more value as a centerfielder than a leftfielder; Cobb or Speaker would pass Orator Jim not that much after '21.)
RF: Sam Crawford
   16. sunnyday2 Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:13 AM (#631374)
Nice to know that we can still look forward to those great double posts!

In the interest of giving the "old-timers" their due, I would reserve my "team" for those who are not only retired, but eligible for the HoM.

C--I'm tempted to go with Charlie Bennett, who had more value as a catcher than Ewing or White, but I'll take Ewing
1B--can I boycott Anson? No? OK, I'll grudgingly take Cap
2B--Lajoie
SS--Wagner
3B--J. Collins
LF--Delahanty
CF--Hamilton
RF--Crawford
DH--wish I could platoon Brouthers and Connor but they're both lefties, so I'll take Brouthers
P--Young, Matty, Nichols, Spalding
   17. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:24 AM (#631376)
Nice to know that we can still look forward to those great double posts!

Actually, it wasn't, Marc. I just didn't like the look of the HTML I was using so I got rid of it.

DH--wish I could platoon Brouthers and Connor but they're both lefties, so I'll take Brouthers

Same here.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
greenback calls it soccer
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.2040 seconds
43 querie(s) executed