Mr. Tiger? Heeeeeeeeeee's great!

Were his parents chemists? :)

The Quiet Man, and like most quiet men, underrated by history to probably the same degree as Stan the Man. Probably #1 on my ballot.

How about those Tigers BTW? Kaline, Cash; Freehan coming up; I was shocked to see that the Tigers have retired Willie Horton's number; Dick McAuliffe was a damn fine player, too, until the mound just got too high. Was it James who wrote that the Tigers probably coulda/shoulda won several pennants with this nucleus but just didn't put it together except in 1968. Otherwise their pitching was weak until most of these position players were past their prime.

Cash looks now like a guy who coulda been more like Yaz or, well, Kaline, if not for the booze. I like Frank Howard a lot and I think Cash comes out just short of Howard. Can't see him on my ballot, but I'm surprised at how well he rates. He was never really regarded as a star after 1961, the focus in Detroit was always somewhere else. Maybe the writers knew that he couldn't be relied upon but since they didn't write that sorta thing in those days, so then they just didn't write anything.

1968: Tigers led the AL in runs with a mere 671 but hit 185 HR. Horton was the big man with 35, Freehan and Cash hit 25, Kaline only played in 102 games at age 33 and hit 10, but with a respectable .287 BA. Cash hit .263 but only played 127 games and had 63 RBI. Other than McLain, Freehan coulda been MVP in 1968--only 1 fewer RBI than Horton and 5 more runs scored. Played 155 games, caught 138 times, filled in at 1B 21 times.

Hard to believe Kaline's year in 1968. Does anybody know if he was injured? My main source does not indicate that he was. He had been injured in both 1966 and 1967, maybe they just thought he was fragile and needed a lot of rest, or maybe they just had a very deep roster of 1B-OF and gave everybody over the age of 30 (meaning Cash and Kaline) a bit of rest. This team was built for the DH

1968 10-53-.287 in 102 games, age 33, 11-for-29, 2 HR, 8 RBI in World Series
1969 21-69-.272 in 131 games
1970 16-71-.278 in 131 games
1971 15-54-.294 in 133 games
1972 10-32-.313 in 106 games (injured), 5-for-19 in ALCS, took A's to 5 games and lost the 5th 2-1

Not much of a workload in the declining years but 16-for-48 (.333), 3 HR, 9 RBI, 9 runs scored in 12 post-season games.

As late as 1973 they still had all the same 1B and OF--Cash, Kaline, Northrup, Stanley and Horton--but brought in Gates Brown to DH 119 times. Kaline played 91 games at age 38, with no apparent injury issues. (10-45-.255 versus Brown's 12-50-.236 in 67 extra ABs.) All the 30 year olds got lots of rest--Cash played 121 games, McAuliffe 106, Northrup 119, Horton 111, Freehan 110, Frank Howard DH'd 76 times and played in 85 games altogether at age 36. This was a very old team but just absolutely stacked at the corners. They ended up more than 100 runs short of the better offenses and almost a half an earned run behind the second best staff (the Orioles were so good it would be unfair to even compare the Tigers to the Orioles).

Ironically in 1974 at age 39 Kaline did become the full-time DH and played 147 games, more than he had played in almost a decade. Cash was the same age and played 53 games (149 AB). In 1975 both were gone and the Tigers won 57 games. They had held on to too many old players for way too long.

Were his parents chemists? :)

I actually thought about some type of alkaline pun, but decided against it. Glad someone brought it up, though. :-)

I actually thought about some type of alkaline pun, but decided against it. Glad someone brought it up, though. :-)

Just your basic ballplayer.

/de-lurk

Just your basic ballplayer.

pHffft.

/re-lurk

Hard to believe Kaline's year in 1968. Does anybody know if he was injured?

Marc, the info below is taken from thebaseballpage.com on Al Kaline's aches and pains

Injuries and Explanation for Missed Playing Time

Fractured his cheekbone in June of 1959, missing nearly three weeks... Broke his collarbone while making a game-saving catch in Yankee Stadium on May 26, 1962. The injury kept him out of the lineup for two months. At the time of the injury, Kaline was leading the league in homers and RBI, and batting .345... Was shelved in September of 1963 with a nagging knee injury, and shut his season down. The injury had occurred in May, after he collidded with the outfield fence in Los Angeles. When he finally succumbed to the injury in September, Kaline was in the thick of a batting race with Carl Yastrzemski. He eventually finished second, nine points back... Suffered a rib injury in an attempt to make a diving catch on August 19, 1965, and missed 18 games... Underwent surgery on his left foot in October of 1965. The foot had been hampering him for more than two years. A bone disease in childhood had deformed Kaline's left foot, leaving him with constant nagging pain... In a game in June of 1967, Kaline struck out against Sam McDowell of the Indians. When he returned to the dugout, Kaline angrily slammed his bat into the rack and broke his thumb. He missed 26 games with the injury... In 1968, Kaline offered an explanation for his frequent battles with injury and need for more rest: "My fielding never suffers when I play doubleheaders, it's my hitting. My arms become heavy and I can't swing the bat." ... Early in his career, when he was a skinny outfielder just off the highs chool baseball team, Kaline was described most often as "speedy" and "quick." When he was younger he was very fast and a strong baserunner. As he grew older, his foot problems robbed him of much of his natural speed.

Oh, and from baseballlibrary.com

May 25, 1968: Detroit OF Al Kaline is hit by the A's Lew Krausse's pitch and suffers a broken arm. He will be out until June 30th. The Tigers win, 2–1, behind Denny McLain, who scores the game's first run in the 8th. The A's run in the 9th is unearned.

I actually thought about some type of alkaline pun, but decided against it. Glad someone brought it up, though.

I once saw a little cartoon of Kaline vs a battery. The alkaline battery got 399 volts. Al Kaline got 399 jolts.

I was young, my sense of humor was not well refined....

I actually thought about some type of alkaline pun, but decided against it. Glad someone brought it up, though. :-)

Just your basic ballplayer.

However, he does clearly pass the litmus test for being in the HOM though.</lurk>

However, he does clearly pass the litmus test for being in the HOM though

That's no lye!

*groan*

Its a good thing he was such a great ballplayer that I only occasionally think of the chemistry puns when I see his name. Seriously, for those of us in chemistry, its like those corny word problems from algebra class involving Eileen Dover and her brother Ben. No one would actually believe that the Kaline family would really name their kid Al. I suppose it would have been worse if his name was Kane instead.

OK. I feel responsible for hijacking this thread, so I must bring it back to baseball here.

Kaline is certainly qualified. Very steady ballplayer with five 150 OPS+ seasons. Some in-season durability issues plus the lack of a total jaw-dropping performance plus the weaker league is keeping him out of the inner circle. Quite a good fielder, played some CF and was also good enough in RF to shift Colavito and his cannon arm to LF when they were teammates.

This thread is starting to become corrosive.

Quite a good fielder, played some CF and was also good enough in RF to shift Colavito and his cannon arm to LF when they were teammates.

Yes, I've always found this interesting. Colavito was nothing special at all defensively, but he had one asset: a howitzer. It would seem to make perfect sense to have had him play RF for the Tigers, in order to take advantage of the one thing Colavito brought to the party defensively. Kaline was going to be great in either RF or LF.

That the Tigers didn't do this represents either a poor decision on their part, or a reflection of the fact that Kaline's arm was nearly as good as Colavito's. Which would make it one hell of a good arm.

Kaline is obviously still vastly underrated - he is trailing Santo in posts by a whopping 56-13.
Shameful.

Kaline is obviously still vastly underrated - he is trailing Santo in posts by a whopping 56-13.
Shameful.

Often less posts just means less controversial.

Here are some of the lesser known tidbits from wikipedia:

-- Youngest player ever to win a major-league batting title, at 20 years; Ty Cobb was one day older.
-- Played 242 consecutive games without an error.
-- Became the second player to hit two homeruns in one inning; the first was Joe DiMaggio.
-- The only player to both never spend time in the minors and spend his entire career with the same team.

Was Kaline a 'bonus baby'?

Kaline's arm was extraordinary. I would be really surprised to find out that Colavito, or almost anyone, had a better arm. Combined with his superior defense abilities, Kaline could have played anywhere.

I've always heard him compared to Clemente. He's Clemente without the flash and the death story.

And I'm in no way trying to make light of Clemente's death, but just saying it's a possibility as to why Clemente is always mentioned as being such an amazing player and Kaline is not (in other circles not as blessed with the knowledge we have here on our beloved baseballthinkfactory...)

Kaline is obviously still vastly underrated - he is trailing Santo in posts by a whopping 56-13.
Shameful.

Often less posts just means less controversial.

Kaline posts not counting this one - 16
kaline posts not concerning chemistry jokes - 9

Santo posts - 59
Santo posts not concerning Adolfo Philips, Horace Stoneham, Leo Durocher, 1997 Mariners, or the late 40's AL - 27

Santo still ahead.

Was Kaline a 'bonus baby'?

Yes. Never played an inning in the minors.

The only player to both never spend time in the minors and spend his entire career with the same team.


Did Yount play in the minors?

Never mind. Baseball cube says he played in the NY-P league as a 17 year old.

How about Koufax? BBC has no minor league stats for him.

I've always heard him compared to Clemente. He's Clemente without the flash and the death story.

And I'm in no way trying to make light of Clemente's death, but just saying it's a possibility as to why Clemente is always mentioned as being such an amazing player and Kaline is not (in other circles not as blessed with the knowledge we have here on our beloved baseballthinkfactory...)

It isn't just Clemente's tragic, heroic death. It's also the shape of their careers: Clemente spent several years being not very good, then became good, then in his 30s became great. The memory of his best years was very fresh in everyone's mind when he died.

Kaline made the mistake of having his best year at age 20. Never quite matching that sensational performance, there was a slight sense of underachievement about him through his career: people kept expecting him to bust out with a .330, 40-homer season, and when he didn't, his terrific years weren't appreciated for how terrific they were (outside of Detroit, that is).

Also, Kaline's brittleness, which limited him to generally 135-145 games a year, often kept his seasonal counting stats below thresholds such as 30 HRs, 100 RBIs, 200 hits. Kaline was better than his stat line looked to the casual fan, while Clemente was quite ofen not quite as good.

How about Koufax? BBC has no minor league stats for him.

Bonus Baby. You guys really need to read up on this stuff! :-)

Bonus Baby. You guys really need to read up on this stuff! :-)

I KNOW what the bonus baby rule was. I'm disputing the Wiki claim that Kaline was the only player to never play in the minors and play his entire career for one team. Aparently Koufax is another one.

I KNOW what the bonus baby rule was. I'm disputing the Wiki claim that Kaline was the only player to never play in the minors and play his entire career for one team. Aparently Koufax is another one.

Oops. Sorry. Banks would be another. Also Ott.

Kaline got hurt in 68, and pretty much every other year. He was still one of the best players of his era. Nice corner OF arms when Detroit had him and Colavito both in the early 60s.

Kaline was a line drive hitter. About 75% of the HRs he hit seemed to be liners just over the fence into the lower deck in LF, esp in Tiger Stadium. He was like watching a training film everywhere on the diamond. Evidently (before my time) he got a lot of heat in the late 50sdue to not living up to expectations. I saw a Sport magazine article once on "Detroit's Brooding Superstar" which is anathema to the Kaline of later years. He was pretty much universally loved after a great year in 61 and coming back from a busted collarbone to have another great year in 62.

Oops. Sorry. Banks would be another. Also Ott.

NP

The NeL might be considered a minor league. Ott's a good one.

Should one of us edit the Wiki?

I fixed the wiki -- and added a "bonus baby" note to his page.

Maybe Ott too early to "count" as not having played in the minors and maybe Koufax was dq-ed by the Dodgers moving to LA?

Maybe Ott too early to "count" as not having played in the minors

Why? Then as now, the vast majority of players played in the minors before playing in the majors. And much more than now, most players played in the minors after playing in the majors.

maybe Koufax was dq-ed by the Dodgers moving to LA?

Shouldn't matter. Same franchise the whole time.

I agree with you Steve (as I did change the page), but I'm just trying to rationalize how the comment ended up there in the first place. Often its stuff like that is used to "help" a player attain a unique bit of trivia like that.

To me, he's Zack Wheat or Goose Goslin, but a little bit better and a little bit longer.

IOW, non-controversial outfield HOMer, but not inner circle.

I'm a Detroiter born in 1984. Can anyone who watched Kaline play give a description of what he looked like in right field and at the plate?

My generation knows Kaline only as an announcer, high roller, country clubber, and "Big Mythical Hero of Tigers past".

To me, Kaline was basically Yaz only just a tich not quite as good. Generally the same strengths in roughly equivalent doses. Did everything pretty well and looked reasonably graceful doing it. Not muscle-bound.

Can anyone who watched Kaline play give a description of what he looked like in right field and at the plate?

I only saw him when he was past his peak, and only a few times at that. But FWIW, nothing in particular about him stood out: he was decent-sized, but not especially big; he ran OK, but he wasn't fast. He moved smoothly, confidently, without haste; he was graceful without being flashy in any way. He was one of those (rare) guys who won't blow you away with any particular skill, but he could simply do everything very well.

Hey, the guy was born in 1984: how's he going to know what Yaz looked like? :-)

A modern guy who might be of the same style would be (at his peak) Bernie Williams: doesn't awe you with anything, but simply does everything calmly and well, and quietly kicks your ass.

Bernie in style, but almost Manny Ramirez in presence and hitting ability. He was always the guy you worried about, even as late as '72, when I saw him.

If I remember correctly there is quite a bit on Kaline in _Five Seasons_

To me, Kaline was basically Yaz only just a tich not quite as good

To me, the biggest difference was durability. And the peak.

Throw out Kaline's 30 game tryout in 1953. Yaz then played two more seasons than Kaline, 23-21, but played 500 more games. Kaline never played more than 153, more than 150 only three times. Yaz played 160 or more 5 times, 150+ eleven times. Playing at the same level of performance, this gives the team roughly 0.5 WARP or 1-2 Win Shares extra each season, assuming say 10 extra games per year.

And the peak: 1967, 1968, and 1970. Three seasons at 170+ OPS+. Kaline has one such season, 1967. And here again the durability is present. Yaz missed seven games total in those three season (5 in '68, 1 each the other two years), leveraging his peak value with playing time. Kaline missed 32 games in 1967, which diminishes the impact.

jimd, I don't disagree. I was talking about how Kaline looked out there on the field (when he was out there).

Bernie Williams doesn't strike me as similar to Kaline other than, yes, he didn't blow you away. But for the style, I'd say more of a Paul O'Neill. Maybe a little bit of Ken Griffey, Jr. Even Barry before the bulk.

I ran Kaline through my basic offensive system and he come out in the same neighborhood as Harry Heilmann and Paul Waner. The system is fairly friendly to players who don't play every game - it loves Frank Chance - so that's good for Kaline. But he's still got quite a long career. Waner seems like a pretty good comp.

I'm a Detroiter born in 1984. Can anyone who watched Kaline play give a description of what he looked like in right field and at the plate?

In the field, I would say Larry Walker would be a very close comp.

At the plate, maybe a RH version of John Olerud?

I never saw Kaline play, but the kind of player he was is the kind I associate with Dwight Evans...only Kaline was a much better player. Anyway, a pretty smooth, athletic corner outfielder with a great arm, batted righty, walked, homered, and occasionally hit for high averages.

Does that seem reasonable to anyone who saw both of them?

I suspect that Sherry Magee and maybe Paul Waner (except for the RHB thing) were cut from this cloth too, but I'm not sure of it. Maybe Indian Bob as well.

There have been a lot of comparisons between Clemente and Kaline over the last few elections, for obvious reasons. I kind of agree they're very close, though I feel Kaline was perhaps slightly better...but that only gets Kaline to the middle of my ballot (I realize that it puts him at the very top of nearly everyone else's).

Dr. Chaleeko, as I recall you were a fellow minor dissenter on Clemente. What's your take on Kaline, I'm curious?

I never saw Kaline play, but the kind of player he was is the kind I associate with Dwight Evans...only Kaline was a much better player. Anyway, a pretty smooth, athletic corner outfielder with a great arm, batted righty, walked, homered, and occasionally hit for high averages.

Does that seem reasonable to anyone who saw both of them?

Yeah, that's a good call. Kaline was better, as you say, but the same general combination of attributes, and the same manner of quiet, smooth, efficient delivery.

Kaline simply didn't have a weakness. The only knock on him, and it isn't a minor one, was his injury-proneness.

Mark,

To be honest, I haven't look very specifically at how Kaline will rank quite yet. By way of comparison to Clemente, among all-time RFs I have him five or six slots higher than Roberto. The peak is pretty much the same, but at the bulk end of their careers, Kaline has several seasons of approximately average regular-player type value. Clemente has fewer such years---and I don't do death credit. All said, they are very similar players overall.

I've changed my ballot composition technique a little since the Clemente election---being that far from consenus will do that to a guy---so I may have Kaline higher than I would have had him were I voting in the same mode as before.

Miser:

Robin Yount did play 60 odd games in the minors before Del Crandall decided he was the team's best option to play shortstop. One of the more underrated intelligent decisions by any major league manager ever. That the Brewers were bad certainly helped but I am pretty certain you can count on one hand the number of managers who would look at an 18 year old kid whose only asset was otherwordly athleticism and say "yeah, that's my shortstop".

Al Kaline as Yaz? Bite your tongue. The folks in Red Sox Nation under 50 might get in a tizzy but Carl was a selfish oaf. That he later evolved into somebody's idea of a veteran leader is a tribute to context as he was surrounded by players even more self-absorbed.

Al Kaline of the late 50's and early 60's was a grand player. Al was very similar to Paul Molitor at the plate. No wasted motion. Just waiting. Waiting. Waiting. And then WHOOSH through the hitting zone with his bat. A quick check of the strikeout to walks will show that Al had a pretty good idea of what was worth swinging at.

Did Tiger Stadium help him? Yes in that a good many of those line drives to left went out over the fence. But the guy could hit anywhere. And Kaline was incredibly well respected as a guy you didn't want to see up when it really counted. He led the leauge in IBB several years and I recall reading that his highest monthly lifetime average was in September. And I would believe that to be true. Kaline was one of those guys who really did seem to have the ability to "get a little extra" when needed. His World Series and All-Star numbers also support that perception.

And the defense! No flopping. No cutesy catch routine. Just incredibly efficiency at getting to the balls that needed to be caught. And an arm that could rival anyone's until an injury zapped some of the juice.

Al Kaline did a number of things to help you win. And when the team moved him around the field Al did it with nary a comment. He subordinated what was possibly best for "him" to what was best for the team.

I look at his "comps" on BB-Ref, and it's silly that Baines is listed as his top comp. At peak health Harold wasn't close to Kaline as a player.

For a "modern" player I would suggest folks think of Bobby Abreu. Abreu doesn't look all that impressive day to day and then you look at the end of the season and go "holy cr*p". That was Al.

He led the leauge in IBB several years

Actually only twice (1959 and 1963), and was second in 1955.

I recall reading that his highest monthly lifetime average was in September. And I would believe that to be true.

Retrosheet has splits from 1957 onward. Kaline's highest BA month? September (.310). Well, actually it was higher in one month: October (.346 in 16 games). September also was his full-month career-best for OBP and SLG.

I look at his "comps" on BB-Ref, and it's silly that Baines is listed as his top comp. At peak health Harold wasn't close to Kaline as a player.

Sure, but Harvey, those comps only look at raw stats, and don't take league context into consideration. Kaline's career OPS+ was 134 to Baines's 120.

Abreu's a good comp in that all-around better-than-he-looks-at-first-glance thing. Again, the only issue you can ding Kaline for is brittleness.

Kaline Home and Away

Home: .301/.384/.507/196 homers
AWay: .288/.368/.453/144 homers

Worth noting: Seven more games at home; only eight more doubles at home despite 52 more homers at home; 8 fewer triples at home.

Steve:

Well, my point about the IBB is that for a guy NOT hitting 40 odd homers it's somewhat demonstrative of how he was perceived by the opposition. And it wasn't like Kaline was surrounded by stiffs in his career either. If they walked Al they would likely face another "real" hitter. In 1963 Kaline was typically followed by either Cash or Colavito.

They don't adjust for context? I thought that was possible now. Anyway, folks should look at the lack of a "900" level score and appreciate how unique Al was as a player. Which I think folks here do. Which is a very good thing.

They don't adjust for context? I thought that was possible now.

Nope. Weighted towards traditional stats as well. Bill James invented the metric for his HOF book and he wanted to mimic BBWAA voting behavior.

>Al Kaline as Yaz? Bite your tongue.... Carl was a selfish oaf.

Boy did I ever provide a straight line or what?

Steve Treader; I believe you and I engaged in a brief discussion of Clemente and Kaline some years back in a non-HoM chat.
Your assessments then rang clear with authenticity and solid rationale, as they continue to do so today.
Roberto was a gifted athlete who learned to become a great ballplayer after his first five years in the league. Like Kaline he got a very early start in MLB; unlike Kaline he wasn't particularly great as a hitter or fielder during his age 20-24 years.
But his strong pride drove him to greatness; he strove to improve all facets of his game so that when he got to the big stage in 1971 at age 36 he carried the entire show on his shoulders.

I grew up in Pittsburgh and saw Roberto his entire career (I was 9 when he broke into the league). Many a night Bob Prince and Jim Woods swept this budding bball fan into the magical world of MLB under the lights of ballparks across america via KDKA radio broadcasts.

I got to see Al after his peak in the mid-60's and you could tell he was one cool, classy ballplayer. He had more power in his stroke; he was a more natural slugger than Clemente.

I am happy to say I got to see them both play; I enjoyed their contributions to the game and am very happy to see them enshrined in both the HoF and HoM.

A big "Thank-You" to all the posters who shared their playing memories of Kaline with me!

Some OFs and 1Bs, adj OPS+, 100 or better, about 435+ PA for 154 G or 460+ for 162 G (see notes)
AlKaline 176 62 62 52 45 44 43 40 39 34 30 28 17 08 06
Clemente 170 68 51 49 48 46 45 45 35 35 21 15 05
DuSnider 172 70 66 56 42 40 40 36 23 18
MMinoso 155 51 49 40 36 35 33 31 21 16 13 08
BJohnson 174 55 47 41 43 35 34 30 29 29 27 25 25
RalKiner 184 84 73 56 46 40 32 21 17
FHoward 177 77 70 53 46 44 37 28 27 11
NorCash 201 50 48 42 36 35 34 29 28 28 26 20
OCepeda 165 64 57 48 35 34 33 31 29 25 17 10 06

Years 9 thru 12 are what separate Kaline from the field, offensively (well, better peak and no war issues put him past Indian Bob). It even keeps Kaline up there with Clemente. I don't know which of those two I'd rate higher. Both were better than Snider, a middlin' HOMer.

Notes: I gave Snider a 435 PA season at 140. I gave Minoso one 108 bonus for Negro League play. I gave Howard a 128 listing to balance the not-listed 459 PA at 149 and a 487 PA at 107. I gave Cash a 142 at 458 PA and a 126 at 452 PA, but not a 141 at 428 PA or a 126 at 420 PA. Kaline had a 2nd 152 in 452 PA in 1962, not listed here. I did give him a 143 in 474 PA in 1965. I gave Clemente a 148 as a compromise for not listing a 158 in 455 PA in 1970 or a 138 in 413 PA in 1972.

This issue may have been addressed in detail in the "adjusting for League Quality" thread. But, since it's pertinent here, and Howie's analysis seems to ignore it: wasn't the NL a stronger league than the AL for at least 25 years (mid 50's through late 70's)? Wasn't the difference quite significant for some of that stretch? Like, enough to see Clemente as clearly better than Kaline, despite the directly measurable similarities?

Again, if this has been discussed, please point me to the relevant analysis.

Both were better than Snider, a middlin' HOMer

But Snider was a centerfielder.

I don't know which of those two I'd rate higher. Both were better than Snider, a middlin' HOMer.

After the titanic group of Mays-Cobb-Mantle-Speaker-DiMaggio, he's the best CF, how on earth is he "middling?"

Fair comments, all.

The 'middlin' HOMer' refers to general OF offensive context.

I'm not convinced that Snider's CF defense was substantially better than the corner defense of Clemente or Kaline. I don't think every CF deserves a big bonus over every corner OF.

I am more swayed, however, by the league quality issue. If Clemente met Kaline on a ballot, that would seal it right there...

I agree that Clemente and Kaline may very well be just as good as Snider. I was just confused by the "middling" comment, which you cleared up anyway. :-)

AlKaline 176 62 62 52 45 44 43 40 39 34 30 28 17 08 06
Clemente 170 68 51 49 48 46 45 45 35 35 21 15 05
DuSnider 172 70 66 56 42 40 40 36 23 18
MMinoso 155 51 49 40 36 35 33 31 21 16 13 08
BJohnson 174 55 47 41 43 35 34 30 29 29 27 25 25
RalKiner 184 84 73 56 46 40 32 21 17
FHoward 177 77 70 53 46 44 37 28 27 11
NorCash 201 50 48 42 36 35 34 29 28 28 26 20
OCepeda 165 64 57 48 35 34 33 31 29 25 17 10 06
PBrowning 222 90 77 77 73 69 63 54 38 32

I used BP's translated stats to try to get the PAs to meet Howie's requirements. But that last year, the 132 in 1892, BP has at 429 translated PAs while baseball-reference has 1892 with 436 actual PA. I don't know what to make of that.

No AA discount has been applied, of course. But I wonder how big it'd have to be to get those numbers down to, say, Orlando Cepeda's. . . .

Browning's league-leading 169 OPS+ in the 1890 PL came at age 29.

Duffy had a 123 at age 23 in that 1890 PL.
Others in that league and year:
Beckley had a 152 at age 22.
Jimmy Ryan had a 131 at age 27.
Brouthers had a 139 at age 32.
Connor had a 156 at age 32.
George Gore had a 139 at age 33.
Harry Stovey had a 127 at age 33.
HRichardson had a 127 at age 35.
O'Rourke had a 137 at age 39.

The only player to both never spend time in the minors and spend his entire career with the same team.

didn't Mantle also never play in the minors

OPS+ isn't everything, is it?

Mantle was sent back down to the Minors in 1951

and his Daddy came and brow-beat back into shape. The whelp.

"OPS+ isn't everything, is it?"

No.
Neither are Win Shares, WARP1, WARP3, or many other johnny-come-latelys.

I'd say OPS+ addresses hitting value more competently than other systems address overall value.
Now, you still have to make fielding, playing-time, and other adjustments after looking at OPS+, but at least you've got a pretty good real-world initial step.

If many of the others are way off on fielding, for instance - and I think some of them are - then starting with their values as an end point is hopeless.

Maybe we should elect Mantle Daddy into the HOM if/when we get to executives and other such things. I mean he did give the Yankees, what, 130 wins by brow beating the whelp?

with you 100%, Howie

Ditto

Mantle was sent back down to the Minors in 1951

Mantle had also played in the minors before 1951.

The advantages that Kaline supposedly has over Clemente are, I believe, greatly exaggerated. Kaline's biggest edge is really in power, he outhomered Clemente 399-240. But a large portion of that is simply a function of parks. Kaline had a significantly longer career; he outhomered Clementes 226-101 at home but only 173-139 on the road. WARP3 has Kaline with a 10 win edge lifetime; Kaline played about three seasons more than Clementes. There's probably not much difference there.

with you 100%, Howie

indeed.

The advantages that Kaline supposedly has over Clemente are, I believe, greatly exaggerated. Kaline's biggest edge is really in power, he outhomered Clemente 399-240. But a large portion of that is simply a function of parks. Kaline had a significantly longer career; he outhomered Clementes 226-101 at home but only 173-139 on the road.

Kaline certainly played in the better hitters park, but it's not like Clementer played in a pitchers park, either. Forbes Field was basically a neutral park.

The other thing that Kaline was far superior than Clememte was walking, which is why Mr. Tiger's OBP was significantly higher than Clemente's.

Kaline played about three seasons more than Clementes. There's probably not much difference there.

Well, that three seasons is another big difference. ;-)

At their peaks? Yeah, there's not that much difference between the two.

Adjusted for context

Player (AVG+/OBP+/SLG+/OPS+)
AK-114/113/122/134
RC-121/110/120/130

Kaline was more take-and-rake, but Clemente's high BA and triples almost make up the difference in OBP and SLG. Slight edge to Al in both.

With league-quality, in-season-durabililty, career shape, fielding and postseason, it would have been a tight race between the two of them if they were on the same ballot. Both got elected too quickly for that.

Al Kaline as Yaz? Bite your tongue. The folks in Red Sox Nation under 50 might get in a tizzy but Carl was a selfish oaf. That he later evolved into somebody's idea of a veteran leader is a tribute to context as he was surrounded by players even more self-absorbed.

Truer words were never posted.

"Twenty-five players, twenty-five cabs" was the catchphrase which summarized the YazSox era perfectly.