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Monday, July 09, 2007

Alan Trammell

Eligible in 2002.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2007 at 12:57 AM | 26 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2007 at 01:03 AM (#2434199)
Trammell shouldn't have had broad-based skills and should have excelled at one like Ozzie instead. Maybe he would be in the HOF.
   2. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2007 at 01:15 AM (#2434213)
Before I get beat up over my post, I know the Wizard was a fine base stealer and wasn't a bad hitter during the late Eighties. He wasn't one-dimensional.
   3. OCF Posted: July 09, 2007 at 01:28 AM (#2434222)
I have a very long (and quite positive) post lined up ready to go as soon as John posts an Ozzie thread - but there's no point in me arguing with John here. Of course, Trammell is a "front-logger" and should be quickly elected to the HoM. Of course, Trammell should have been the 1987 MVP.
   4. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 09, 2007 at 01:14 PM (#2434555)
He's not in the top ten, might not be in the top 15, but among SS, I think he's over the in/out line. Even my system, which is sensitive to issues of positional dominance (so which would probably tend to push Trammell downward a bit due to Cal and Yount), sees him as over the line. I think comparing him to Smith is fair and to my mind, they are nearly equal candidates, each with advantages. But they aren't so far apart that the comparisons will reveal any chasm between them, and I don't think a comparison of them will enable someone to reasonably argue for one guy and thereby against the other.

But that's just my opinion.
   5. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 09, 2007 at 01:31 PM (#2434562)
Strong enough bat to hit third for a 97 win team, gold glove defense, World Series MVP, peak OPS higher than Cal Ripken.

Among the most underappreciated and undervoted HOF candidates in baseball history.
   6. DL from MN Posted: July 09, 2007 at 02:38 PM (#2434628)
I have him between Yount and Whitaker, all behind Banks and ahead of Sewell. Clearly in, will get an elect-me vote.
   7. DavidFoss Posted: July 09, 2007 at 04:28 PM (#2434734)
peak OPS higher than Cal Ripken.

Good discussion starter. Adjusting for context, Cal does inch back ahead though:

CR-162-145-144-139-128-124-122
AT-155-138-138-138-136-130-120
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 09, 2007 at 04:47 PM (#2434755)
My favorite non-Royal of All-time. He played my favorite position for my dad's favorite team, and he was their best player. 1988 was really the first year at team ever broke my heart. The Royals were out of it, but the Tigers were in first place at the All-Star break while the Red Sox were in fourth dawdling around .500 and firing their manager. Then the Red Sox just went on fire going 21-9 in July, and catching the Tigers by September. The Tigers got hot at the end while the Red Sox slumped, but it wasn't enough and the Red Sox won the title.

For a ten year old that didn't even live in Detroit, I was pretty devastated.
   9. Toolsy McClutch Posted: July 09, 2007 at 04:54 PM (#2434762)
What was his D like? I always had the impression he was solid if unspectacular.
   10. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 09, 2007 at 05:25 PM (#2434790)
What was his D like? I always had the impression he was solid if unspectacular


Three Gold Gloves, I believe. Strong, quick arm, great hands. Soft, dependable hands.
   11. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 09, 2007 at 05:34 PM (#2434802)
Good discussion starter. Adjusting for context, Cal does inch back ahead though:

CR-162-145-144-139-128-124-122
AT-155-138-138-138-136-130-120


Ripken was better. The gap between the two was nowhere near as great as the discrepancy in the HOF vote.

Ozzie being a near-unanimous vote and Tram hanging around 15-20% should be an embarrassment to the BBWAA. Neither Sparky Anderson, nor I, nor any Tiger fan would have traded Tram straight up for Ozzie at any time from 1980-1990.
   12. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 09, 2007 at 05:38 PM (#2434811)
Toolsy,

That's my impression too.

FRAA shows double digit run savings vs. average in six seasons, running btewen age 23 and 31. Had one really bad year in 1979 at age 21, then no negative years until he was 35. En toto 69 runs above average, which is solid but only 1/4 of Ozzie's total. For comparison's sake, I turned on the SBE and sorted the top 100 SS by games played at SS. Here's the FRAA1 for each guy above 1800 games at SS only:

NAME               G SS  FRAA  FRAA/162
----------------------------------------
Luis Aparicio       2581     85    5.3
Ozzie Smith         2511    270   17.4 
Omar Vizquel        2501    107    6.9
Cal Ripken          2302    111    7.8
Larry Bowa          2222   
31  2.3  
Luke Appling        2218     21    1.5
Dave Concepcion     2178    134   10.0
Rabbit Maranville   2153    180   13.5
Alan Trammell       2139     72    5.5
Bill Dahlen         2132    208   15.8
Bert Campaneris     2097     67    5.2
Barry Larkin        2085     57    4.4
Tommy Corcoran      2073    155   12.1
Roy McMillan        2028    136   10.9
Pee Wee Reese       2014     10    0.8
Roger Peckinpaugh   1982     72    5.9
Garry Templeton     1964     34    2.8
Don Kessinger       1955   
26  2.2  
Mark Belanger       1942    112    9.3
Chris Speier        1900    123   10.5
Ozzie Guillen       1896    109    9.3
Honus Wagner        1886    193   16.6 
Dick Groat          1877     84    7.2
Dave Bancroft       1873    111    9.6
Donie Bush          1866     59    5.1
Alfredo Griffin     1861      6    0.5
Joe Cronin          1843     92    8.1
Leo Cardenas        1843     74    6.5
Bobby Wallace       1826    138   12.2 


Here's this table resorted by the FRAA per G at SS (note these are not adjusted defensive games, I don't have all day):

NAME               G SS  FRAA  FRAA/162
----------------------------------------
Ozzie Smith         2511    270   17.4 
Honus Wagner        1886    193   16.6 
Bill Dahlen         2132    208   15.8
Rabbit Maranville   2153    180   13.5
Bobby Wallace       1826    138   12.2 
Tommy Corcoran      2073    155   12.1
Roy McMillan        2028    136   10.9
Chris Speier        1900    123   10.5
Dave Concepcion     2178    134   10.0
Dave Bancroft       1873    111    9.6
Mark Belanger       1942    112    9.3
Ozzie Guillen       1896    109    9.3
Joe Cronin          1843     92    8.1
Cal Ripken          2302    111    7.8
Dick Groat          1877     84    7.2
Omar Vizquel        2501    107    6.9
Leo Cardenas        1843     74    6.5
Roger Peckinpaugh   1982     72    5.9
Alan Trammell       2139     72    5.5
Luis Aparicio       2581     85    5.3
Bert Campaneris     2097     67    5.2
Donie Bush          1866     59    5.1
Barry Larkin        2085     57    4.4
Garry Templeton     1964     34    2.8
Luke Appling        2218     21    1.5
Pee Wee Reese       2014     10    0.8
Alfredo Griffin     1861      6    0.5
Don Kessinger       1955   
26  2.2  
Larry Bowa          2222   
31  2.3 


Trammell is 19th out of this group of 29. Smith, of course, is first. 5.0 FRAA/162 seems to generally be about the level where long-career SS start queing up, so Trammell is much closer to the minimum competence level than he is to Ozzie. But he still provides better than average defense over a long period of time, and so I don't present the chart to argue that his defense isn't good but rather that even though he wasn't a defensive standout, he was competent enough to handle the position well for a long time, and to get his bat into the lineup at a position where good hitting was somewhat to very scarce.
   13. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:04 PM (#2434893)
Trammell was a defensive standout.

What does FRAA measure?
   14. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:26 PM (#2434922)
After the 1984 World Series, Sparky Anderson told Bob Costas in the trophy presentation that "I've been saying it all year (Ed: maybe longer, memory isn't perfect) [Trammell] is the best player in baseball." With a Gold Glove year defensively, an OPS+ of 136, 19 SB, and clutch postseason play to rest his case on, Sparky wasn't far from being right if he wasn't right.
   15. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:35 PM (#2434931)
God, Honus Wagner was good. True, it was a different era, with defense more important, but my goodness. Ozzie Smith-level defense with a 150 career OPS+.
   16. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:44 PM (#2434942)
Michael Humphreys' Defensive Regression Analysis says that Wagner's defense is very overrated.
   17. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:49 PM (#2434945)
Trammell wasn't quite as good as Ripken offensively, defensively, or durability-wise (obviously), but a clear HOFer in my book. Post 11 is right -- there's a clear gap between the two, but nowhere near large enough to justify the absurd discrepancy in HOF voting results.
   18. Paul Wendt Posted: July 10, 2007 at 03:18 AM (#2435352)
16. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 09, 2007 at 03:44 PM (#2434942)
Michael Humphreys' Defensive Regression Analysis says that Wagner's defense is very overrated.


What does he say about Leach and Clarke?
Three all-time greater fielders, by some sabrmetrics, on the left side together for ten years. --Clarke left, Wagner short, Leach third or center.
And Ritchey at second for much of that time. Maybe Sam Leever and Deacon Philllipe deserve credit for pitching it there.
   19. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 10, 2007 at 04:02 AM (#2435381)
Ask him! I only have his data for shortstops, and that's career, not season-by-season.
   20. DavidFoss Posted: July 10, 2007 at 04:21 AM (#2435398)
Wagner being 'overrated' is quite vague considering he's ranked as "second best ever" in the list above.

Is he:

-- Still great, just not obscenely amazing like the stat above suggests?
-- A very good fielder, gold glover for a couple years at his best?
-- Above average fielder, though never the best in the league?
-- Average fielder?
-- Mediocre fielder, made up for it with his bat?
-- Stone gloved, his bat made up for it, but should have played a different position?

Its a similar issue with Lajoie and Pete Palmer's Fielding Runs. Lajoie wasn't *that* good, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have still been a great fielder.
   21. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 10, 2007 at 01:16 PM (#2435491)
You'd have to ask Michael Humphreys, but my guess is #2: A very good fielder, gold glover for a couple years at his best (although Tinker might have had something to say about that).
   22. TomH Posted: July 10, 2007 at 01:22 PM (#2435497)
Even if Honus' defense is overrated, we oughta remember he didn't even play the position fulltime until age 29. How many guys (among those who could hit) were above average shortstops in their 30s, and played there until past 40?
   23. Wahoo Sam Posted: January 12, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4637124)
Strong enough bat to hit third for a 97 win team, gold glove defense, World Series MVP, peak OPS higher than Cal Ripken.


Is this the level of "expert" voting you have for the HOFM? Trammell hit CLEANUP for a 98-win team. Seems that on a website where the regulars are frequently ######## about the quality of the BBWAA voter, you'd have a more educated membership.

You see, the problem with being smarmy and criticizing EVERY action taken by the people IN THE ARENA, is that when you make a foolish error, it just makes you look more foolish.
   24. OCF Posted: January 12, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4637194)
The person who posted the comment you refer to is not a Hall of Merit voter - not then, not now.
   25. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 12, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4637323)
Wow. If that's the type of nitpick you are going for Wahoo, I can see where the name came from. Maybe that was sarcasm? Tone is pretty hard to guess in text.

Who criticizes every action of the Hall of Fame or the BBWAA? Certainly not us. Have you read anything else here? Do you have any clue of what the Hall of Merit is about? And what arena are you talking about. People who fill out a ballot?

Humor me, what axe is this you are grinding. Are you a BBWAA member yourself?
   26. Blackadder Posted: January 13, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4637796)
Moreover, SugarBear Blanks wasn't even wrong. Trammell was strong enough to hit third for a 97 win team, even though he never in fact did so, as evinced by the fact that he cleared the stricter bar of hitting cleanup for a 98 win team :)

EDIT: Wahoo Sam is annoyed since he made some, shall we say, controversial claims about Morris and Schilling over the last few weeks, and the response was not particularly welcoming.

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