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Thursday, January 02, 2014

BBTF Referendum on Hall of Fame candidates

Hall of Fame style ballot referendum only including players from this era who did not receive 75% support in a previous BBTF election. The only alteration from Hall of Fame rules is the voter can vote for any number between zero and all players if they choose. Please list alphabetically for easier ballot counting.

Eligible players: Kevin Appier, Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Kevin Brown, Jose Canseco, Will Clark, David Cone, Tony Fernandez, Chuck Finley, Steve Finley, Julio Franco, Andres Galarraga, Mark Grace, Dwight Gooden, Juan Gonzalez, Orel Hershiser, Jeff Kent, Jimmy Key, Al Leiter, Kenny Lofton, Dennis Martinez, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, Paul O’Neill, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Lance Parrish, Tony Phillips, Brad Radke, Tim Salmon, Bret Saberhagen, Lee Smith, Sammy Sosa, Dave Stieb, Fernando Valenzuela, Robin Ventura, Frank Viola, Larry Walker, David Wells, Lou Whitaker, Bernie Williams, Matt Williams

Voting will close 4PM EST on 10 January 2014

DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:01 PM | 142 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:38 PM (#4628184)
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

Tough call on Sosa but I'm saying no at the moment.
   2. flournoy Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4628232)
Kevin Brown
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

There are a lot of pitchers on that list for whom I'm tempted to vote, but I feel as though if I vote for one of them, I'd need to vote for all of them. (Appier, Cone, Finley, Gooden, Guidry, Hershiser, Key, Saberhagen, Stieb, Wells) I haven't figured out how I'd rate all of those guys against each other.
   3. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4628236)
Kevin Brown Mike Mussina Lou Whitaker
   4. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4628238)
Was Al Leiter left off the list of players above intentionally, or was that just a mistake?
   5. Fridas Boss Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4628239)
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   6. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4628244)
I do want to credit bbtf for changing my mind on kevin brown
   7. Mefisto Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4628260)
Mike Mussina, Lou Whittaker
   8. Mark Donelson Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4628265)
Kevin Appier
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
   9. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:59 PM (#4628268)
I can add Al Leiter to the list.
   10. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4628277)
There are a lot of pitchers on that list for whom I'm tempted to vote, but I feel as though if I vote for one of them, I'd need to vote for all of them. (Appier, Cone, Finley, Gooden, Guidry, Hershiser, Key, Saberhagen, Stieb, Wells) I haven't figured out how I'd rate all of those guys against each other.


Yeah, this is definitely the biggest challenge of this exercise, I think. And to some extent, having all of those pitchers listed together makes it really tempting to say, "This is exactly why the Hall-of-Fame line should be drawn above all of these guys. If you lower the standards down to this level, you open the floodgates."

That said, I think I would draw the line somewhere within that group. So, here's who I came up up with, in alphabetical order:

Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Dwight Gooden
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

I actually feel a little ridiculous voting for 14 players - that seems like it would produce an enormous Hall of Fame. But the reality is that I think I'd have all of these guys in a personal Hall of Fame the same size as the one in Cooperstown.
   11. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4628279)
Albert Belle
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
Dwight Gooden
Orel Hershiser
Al Leiter
Dennis Martinez
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
Bernie Williams

Commentary: I've gone from a Very Small Hall guy to a Rather Large Hall guy in the last few years, and I think starting pitchers are underrepresented in the Hall. As are center fielders, so I'd seriously consider adding Kenny Lofton to the mix.
   12. Howie Menckel Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4628287)

a baker's dozen

Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

   13. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4628288)
Kevin Appier
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Chuck Finley
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Al Leiter
Kenny Lofton
Dennis Martinez
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
David Wells
Lou Whitaker


Brief Note: I do not feel like the statistics are accurately capturing just how enormously difficult it was to be a starting pitcher during the Sillyball Era.
   14. JoeC Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4628291)
Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   15. The District Attorney Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4628292)
Other names Posnanski mentioned in his article that could be added: Strawberry, Langston, Justice
   16. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4628293)
Stieb, Saberhagen, Gooden, Guidry and Hershiser can all say they were the best at some point. Not so much for Key, Finley, Appier and Wells.
   17. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4628295)
Donelson - did you mean to leave off Whitaker?
   18. CH Luke Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4628296)
Brown, Kevin
Martinez, Edgar
Mussina, Mike
Palmeiro, Rafael
Sosa, Sam
Walker, Larry
Whitaker, Lou
   19. The District Attorney Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:20 PM (#4628298)
And if you went back for Guidry, I suppose you could go back for Randolph and Nettles as well, not to mention the Evanses. The guys who keep showing up on the VC ballot, e.g. Concepcion, Garvey, Oliver. Relievers, e.g. Quiz, Henke.

Dunno how far you wanna push it.
   20. The District Attorney Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4628300)
.
   21. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4628306)
And if you went back for Guidry, I suppose you could go back for Randolph and Nettles as well, not to mention the Evanses.


I assumed the list was players who would still be eligible for the current BBWAA ballot, but for the 5% rule, but Guidry would have fallen off of the ballot six years ago.
   22. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4628307)
Feel free to write in candidates if you wish as long as they're in this time frame (retired 1994 to 2008). No Pete Rose or Joe Jackson.
   23. The District Attorney Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4628308)
Aggh, editing. Okay, retired 1994-2008, got it.
   24. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4628312)
Good catch - Guidry is NOT eligible. I'll take him off the list.
   25. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4628315)
If we're creeping back for Guidry and Nettles, I'm throwing Murph on the ballot dammit.
   26. Srul Itza Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4628316)
Kevin Brown
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   27. BDC Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4628324)
I debated whether to enter my fairly Small-Hall ballot, but what the heck, small-hallers deserve votes too. So I'll take:

Kent
Mussina
Sosa
Whitaker
   28. LargeBill Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4628327)
Belle
Brown
Hershiser
Kent
Lofton
Edgar Martinez
McGriff
Mussina
Palmeiro
Sosa
Stieb
Walker
Whitaker
   29. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:36 PM (#4628332)
Mussina
Sosa
   30. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4628365)
Bah, if we can add write-ins who retired by 2008, please add KENNY ROGERS to my list on #13 (unless for some reason he's not eligible). Thanks!
   31. AROM Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4628381)
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   32. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4628390)
If this thread is just for ballots, I apologize, but if not, I just wanted to point out that until his injury in 1998, Kevin Appier was certainly a candidate for the best pitcher of the 90s. The only guys better than him were Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux--not bad company to be in at all!

(And at his mini-peak--ages 24 and 25, 1992-1992, when he went 33 and 16 with a 2.52 ERA--no one was better...by WAR at least.)

   33. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4628403)
This thread is sort of loosey-goosey. This is more to determine who would still be on-ballot than a true vote. I added the Kenny Rogers vote.
   34. bachslunch Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4628404)
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   35. tfbg9 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4628411)
Edgar Martinez-You simply couldn't pitch to him. One of the top 2 at his position ever.

Mike Mussina-the most under the radar guy ever, and a great one, great enough for My Hall.

Lou Whitaker-one the best 2nd basemen ever to play the game. That's a HOF player in my book.

Sammy Sosa-I think he was 'roided to the gills. But he friggin' hit 600-odd HR's. It happened. It counted. Its just too many HR's to keep him out, IMHO

Jeff Kent-if you can fake 2nd and get 1500 RBI's you're in, Kent was better at 2nd than most people realize


   36. tfbg9 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4628412)
and...

Larry Walker-he could do it all. Except accumulate, but he accumulated enough, I think.

Almost voted for Lofton and Raffy, and could be talked into either suppose.
   37. icho1977 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4628438)
My hall of fame ballot (10):

Sosa
Palmeiro
Mussina
Morris
Baines
K.Brown
D.Martinez
McGriff
Hershiser
E-Martinez
   38. Ace of Kevin Bass Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:26 PM (#4628465)
Without looking at other ballots, and while making an attempt to limit it to ten:

Will Clark
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

Kevin Brown and Orel Hershiser just missed the cut (Belle/Kent too), and obviously there are a surfeit of HOVG guys among the candidates as a whole.
   39. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4628476)
Kevin Brown and Orel Hershiser just missed the cut


Then I assume Curt Schilling and John Smoltz will miss as well. Kevin Brown was Curt Schilling without the sock.
   40. Ace of Kevin Bass Posted: January 02, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4628512)
Then I assume Curt Schilling and John Smoltz will miss as well. Kevin Brown was Curt Schilling without the sock.


I haven't thought too deeply about it, but Schilling was indeed on the outside looking in for my personal BBTF HOF ballot a few weeks ago. No particular opinion on Smoltz, other than that I have no problem whatsoever with a Hall of Fame that includes him (or Schilling, or Brown).
   41. base ball chick Posted: January 02, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4628550)
i guess you mean guys who i would vote into the Hall and not just who should stay ON the ballot

Kevin Brown - I hafta - he's a starter who finished with a 127 ERA+ (and pitched his best in the middle of the roid era) in 3500+ IP. gues to show you have to really look at what he ACTUALLY did and not just what you remembered about how he felt at the time

Kenny Lofton - absolutely. was a great CF and was good until the end. no he is not The Mick, but he still belongs, and i always thought so

Edgar Martinez - with great reluctance and at the end of any ballot. because i have no respect for the DH

Rafael Palmeiro - another guy who was simply excellent year after year after year. i am not gonna kick him because he got tainted stuff from miggy tejada, a KNOWN and unapologetic roider

Larry Walker - absoleffinglutely. i don't care if he was hurt a lot. when he played, he was a 5 tool player and he was until the last day he played. he was great before he went to COors and he was great after he left. the ONLY real complaint about him is his playing time

Lou Whitaker - another guy who, best i can tell, sure as heck was not ever thought of as the best at anything, let alone a HOFer, but after checking him out (like the rest of the ****ing BBWAA shoulda done) he rates. no question
   42. EricC Posted: January 02, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4628567)
This list shows that there's really no sharp dividing line between the Hall of Fame and the Hall of Very Good. I'll be generous and vote for 20:

Baines, Harold
Belle, Albert
Brown, Kevin
Canseco, Jose
Clark, Will
Cone, David
Fernandez, Tony
Finley, Chuck
Kent, Jeff
Martinez, Dennis
Martinez, Edgar
McGriff, Fred
Mussina, Mike
Palmeiro, Rafael
Parrish, Lance
Stieb, Dave
Ventura, Robin
Walker, Larry
Whitaker, Lou
Williams, Bernie
   43. ajnrules Posted: January 02, 2014 at 05:54 PM (#4628579)
If there's no limit, time to go crazy! Players I'd vote for with a 10-vote limit are in bold.

Kevin Appier, Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Kevin Brown, Will Clark, David Cone, Chuck Finley, Julio Franco, Andres Galarraga, Mark Grace, Dwight Gooden, Orel Hershiser, Jeff Kent, Al Leiter, Kenny Lofton, Dennis Martinez, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Jack Morris, Mike Mussina, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Tony Phillips, Bret Saberhagen, Sammy Sosa, Dave Stieb, Larry Walker, Lou Whitaker, Bernie Williams

And once again I'm willing to help with the count
   44. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 02, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4628583)
Cool idea!

My votes:

Sammy Sosa

<end>
   45. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4628600)
Players I'd vote for with a 10-vote limit are in bold.


No they're not.
   46. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4628608)
Kevin Brown
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

Stieb, McGriff, Olerud, Saberhagen, and Lofton are all really close. Kent and Sosa are my last two in. And I agree with EricC, almost all of these players are Hall of Very Good. I kind of want to buy property near the Hall of Fame and have someone make statues of unenshrined players who are in/around this caliber to create a sculpture garden called the Hall of Very Good.
   47. tfbg9 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 06:55 PM (#4628617)
Kevin Brown looks a lot worse when you use RA+ instead of ERA+, as you should, because UER's count on the scorecoard,
and preventing them is a skill.
   48. James Newburg is in awe of Cespedes' CORE STRENGTH Posted: January 02, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4628639)
Kevin Appier
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Chuck Finley
Dwight Gooden
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   49. tfbg9 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 07:32 PM (#4628648)
I may have screwed it up, but in ERA+, I get them both at 127, but trying to do a RA+ yields ~127 for Brown, but ~138 for Schilling.

If someone can actually provide a link to an actual RA+ table, that'd be great.

I tried to edit #47, but it didn't work.
   50. OCF Posted: January 02, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4628653)
Kevin Brown looks a lot worse when you use RA+ instead of ERA+, as you should, because UER's count on the scorecoard,
and preventing them is a skill.


Absolutely true. And that makes him significantly inferior to Curt Schilling. (Brown was a ground ball pitcher and Schilling a fly ball pitcher. GB pitchers give up more UER.) But working entirely with RA+, I have him with an equivalent record of 216-146, with some significant credit for big seasons. Some pitchers to compare that to:

Dave Stieb, 190-131. So Brown minus Stieb is 26-15, and Brown gets more big-season credit. That looks like Brown > Stieb to me.
Dave Cone, 190-132. So Brown minus Cone is 26-14, with Brown the edge in big seasons.
Bret Saberhagen, 174-111. So Brown minus Saberhagen is 42-35. Definitely in Brown's favor.
Don Drysdale, 209-157. That makes Brown minus Drysdale 7-(-11). And Brown still has the edge in big season credit.
Sandy Koufax, 163-95. OK, I'll leave this one alone. Kind of a third rail there.
Juan Marichal, 226-164. So, subtracting the other way, Marichal minus Brown is 10-18. That's not a large difference. The big-season credit points slightly toward Marichal. Call this one close.

Now, all of this may be overrating Brown because of the decentralization of pitching rate statistics that happened after about 1990. And not all of the pitchers I just named are in the Hall of Fame, although all of them are in the Hall of Merit. But still, that really is the company that Brown is keeping. And he should have won at least one and probably several CY awards.

I would vote yes for all Hall of Merit members (including Brown) and all all those (like Mussina) who will obviously be in the Hall of Merit once the glut clears.
   51. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 02, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4628662)
Kevin Appier
Albert Belle
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Robin Ventura
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
Bernie Williams
   52. CraigK Posted: January 02, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4628677)
Harold Baines,
Kevin Brown,
Will Clark,
David Cone,
Jeff Kent,
Kenny Lofton,
Edgar Martinez,
Mike Mussina,
Sammy Sosa,
Dave Stieb,
Larry Walker,
Lou Whitaker,
   53. chisoxcollector Posted: January 02, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4628693)
And I thought I was going to be the only one to vote for Robin Ventura. Highly underrated, that one!

Kevin Appier
Albert Belle
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Robin Ventura
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

I could be convinced on David Cone, John Olerud, Bret Saberhagen, and Bernie Williams. For now, they don't get my vote.
   54. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 02, 2014 at 08:22 PM (#4628700)
Not voting on the grounds that voting for Jose Canseco would be way too much fun.
   55. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2014 at 08:35 PM (#4628717)
I want to add Kevin Appier to my list. Did you know that if Kevin Appier had retired in 1997 after the injury, he'd have been Sandy Koufax?
   56. HGM Posted: January 02, 2014 at 08:47 PM (#4628738)
Kevin Brown
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   57. toratoratora Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4628794)
Kenny Lofton
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker

   58. Chris Cobb Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:58 PM (#4628867)
I'll put in a large-Hall list:

Kevin Appier
Albert Belle
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Chuck Finley
Orel Hershiser
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Robin Ventura
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   59. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: January 03, 2014 at 12:09 AM (#4628874)
In order of preference:

Mike Mussina
Larry Walker
Kevin Brown
Lou Whitaker
Orel Hershiser
Edgar Martinez
Bret Saberhagen
David Cone
Dwight Gooden
Kenny Lofton
Sammy Sosa

I could go further but I'm less sure of the additional guys like Kevin Appier, Dave Stieb, Rafael Palmeiro, David Wells, and Will Clark. I'm guessing Bobby Grich, Luis Tiant, Willie Randolph and Rick Reuschel were from an earlier era, which means I'm really old.
   60. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 03, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4628888)
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Lou Whitaker
   61. alilisd Posted: January 03, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4628889)
Lofton
E. Martinez
Mussina
Palmeiro
Sosa
Walker
Whitaker
   62. roberteye Posted: January 03, 2014 at 02:13 AM (#4628931)
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Kent
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Smith (Lee)
Thomas

Curious why Piazza isn't getting as much love as Biggio. Obviously I believe the HOF is not credible without Bonds or Clemens. I can make a similar argument for Peter Rose. And is the great closer Lee Smith considered a juicer?
   63. Cabbage Posted: January 03, 2014 at 02:32 AM (#4628934)
Kevin Brown
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
Bernie Williams


My general view on HOF voting is, "Is he better than Andre Dawson?" I am mildly confident in these pick, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, esp. w/r/t pitchers. I feel like the peak/career distinction is easier to navigate with position players than pitchers, and I think I'll ultimately have a version of "Is he better than . . . " for both peak and career pitchers before too long.
   64. Chicago Joe Posted: January 03, 2014 at 02:47 AM (#4628937)
Stieb, McGriff, Olerud, Saberhagen, and Lofton are all really close. Kent and Sosa are my last two in. And I agree with EricC, almost all of these players are Hall of Very Good. I kind of want to buy property near the Hall of Fame and have someone make statues of unenshrined players who are in/around this caliber to create a sculpture garden called the Hall of Very Good.


Ask and ye shall receive:

Three acres enough?
   65. theboyqueen Posted: January 03, 2014 at 03:11 AM (#4628944)
Gooden, Hershiser, and Canseco are the three on the list that for some portion of time were the best baseball player on earth, so those are the ones I would vote for. I guess that makes me an extreme peak guy? Sosa is close.

I will never understand why anyone would want to vote someone like Harold Baines into a Hall of Fame. Guys like that deserve a gold watch and a nice retirement party.
   66. theboyqueen Posted: January 03, 2014 at 03:13 AM (#4628945)
Also, I'm not sure I understand the criteria for the original list, but does Eric Davis qualify? I would vote for him, actually.
   67. Rob_Wood Posted: January 03, 2014 at 04:23 AM (#4628955)
Kevin Brown
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   68. Cooper Nielson Posted: January 03, 2014 at 06:04 AM (#4628968)
Bonds
Clemens
Glavine
Kent
Maddux
Mussina
Piazza
Smith (Lee)
Thomas


Um, somebody wasn't following instructions...
   69. Chris Fluit Posted: January 03, 2014 at 10:49 AM (#4629027)
Kevin Brown,
Will Clark,
David Cone,
Dwight Gooden,
Orel Hershiser,
Jeff Kent,
Kenny Lofton,
Edgar Martinez,
Fred McGriff,
Jack Morris,
Mike Mussina,
John Olerud,
Rafael Palmeiro,
Bret Saberhagen,
Sammy Sosa,
Dave Stieb,
Larry Walker,
Lou Whitaker
   70. Rusty Priske Posted: January 03, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4629056)
Will Clark
Mark Grace
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
Bernie Williams
   71. John Mazzeo Posted: January 03, 2014 at 12:27 PM (#4629080)
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Dwight Gooden
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

Big Hall, could be convinced on at least a couple more of the pitchers.
   72. DL from MN Posted: January 03, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4629097)

55) Rickey - added Appier
62) roberteye - you are in the wrong thread and that one is over
66) theboyqueen - writein for Eric Davis accepted


   73. kaline Posted: January 03, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4629197)
Brown
Lofton
E. Martinez
Mussina
Palmeiro
Smith
Walker
Whitaker
   74. eskimo38 Posted: January 03, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4629207)
albert belle
kevin brown
will clark
david cone
jeff kent
kenny lofton
edgar martinez
fred mcgriff
mike mussina
john olerud
rafael palmeiro
sammy sosa
larry walker
lou whitaker
   75. EddieA Posted: January 03, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4629262)
Palmeiro
Sosa
   76. Mike Webber Posted: January 03, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4629316)
Quick and dirty list, once I decided I wanted to vote for one Royals pitcher of the '90's I decided to vote for all three.

Kevin Appier
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Robin Ventura
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   77. Canker Soriano Posted: January 03, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4629331)
Albert Belle
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Dennis Martinez
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   78. SandlotBB Posted: January 03, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4629360)
I tried to cut it to 10, but kept Lofton, Brown, O'Neill, and Bernie (Baines got cut because he was a compiler) :
Albert Belle (how he fell off the ballot so quickly is still a mystery to me, even with all his temperamental issues)
Kevin Brown
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton (even though he bounced teams frequently, he played for winners and at his peak was unquestionably the best leadoff guy in baseball)
Edgar Martinez (nothing against DHs here)
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff (if he had stuck around for 500, he would be in already)
Mike Mussina
Paul O’Neill (cog of the late 1990s Yankees champions)
Rafael Palmeiro
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Bernie Williams (see O'Neill)
   79. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 03, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4629361)
Kevin Brown
Orel Hershiser
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   80. Davo Dozier (Mastroianni) Posted: January 03, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4629372)
Al Leiter's just not getting a lot of love here, huh?
   81. The District Attorney Posted: January 03, 2014 at 04:50 PM (#4629410)
this (lack of) editing is a nightmare
   82. The District Attorney Posted: January 03, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4629451)
Since I couldn't get "pre" or "code" to work, here is a picture file with player comparisons.

WAR = Eric Burdon, oWAR = offensive WAR (includes position adjustment), WAR7 = sum of seven best years by WAR, JAWS = need a bigger boat, Jpos = estimated JAWS of Hall of Famers at the player's position, Rosen$ = estimated worth by Dan Rosenheck's system (in millions), RosenRank = all-time rank among hitters according to Rosen$
   83. The District Attorney Posted: January 03, 2014 at 07:31 PM (#4629542)
And I vote for:

Kevin Appier, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Chuck Finley, Dwight Gooden, Orel Hershiser, Kenny Lofton, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Bret Saberhagen, Sammy Sosa, Dave Stieb, Larry Walker, Lou Whitaker, Bernie Williams
   84. BFFB Posted: January 03, 2014 at 07:59 PM (#4629548)
Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   85. theorioleway Posted: January 03, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4629646)
Appier
Brown
Cone
Lofton
E. Martinez
Mussina
Palmeiro
Saberhagen
Sosa
Stieb
Walker
Whitaker
   86. Baldrick Posted: January 03, 2014 at 10:00 PM (#4629650)
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

Very tempted by Kent, Stieb, Appier, Finley, and Will Clark. And would consider Ventura, Olerud, Williams, and Hershiser.

Doing this has also convinced me once and for all that McGriff doesn’t belong. Not enough peak.
   87. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: January 03, 2014 at 10:18 PM (#4629656)
Kevin Appier
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Orel Hershiser
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

Very tempted by Chuck Finley and Bernie.
   88. rawagman Posted: January 03, 2014 at 10:27 PM (#4629658)
As a large Hall guy, I was tempted to add a few more to the list, but held back a bit.
Albert Belle
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker
   89. Adam B. Posted: January 03, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4629674)
Small Hall:

Kent
Lofton
E Martinez
Mussina
   90. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2014 at 12:46 AM (#4629708)
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
Fred McGriff
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker
   91. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2014 at 01:56 AM (#4629735)
Random thoughts based on the info in #82:

• I feel confident basically lumping Brown, Stieb, Cone, Saberhagen, and Appier together, most likely in that order. Brown is clearly the best of the crew, anyway; he has a little better peak, and a couple extra decent seasons that the other four don't have. I don't really care too much about those seasons, though.

Gooden and Hershiser are a lot iffier -- "peak" candidates who nonetheless aren't burning up the WAR7 charts. Still, I decided to support them because I suspect that their anni mirabiles resulted in adding more pennants than a guy who spread the same value into two or three good seasons. It'd be interesting to have Rosenheck numbers on this. (I should note that WAR doesn't think Hershiser's 1988 was especially historical.) (WAR doesn't consider postseason, so that's part of it.)

Once I did decide to vote for Gooden and Hershiser, I didn't have much choice but to also vote for Chuck Finley, who had similar WAR7 and JAWS to these two guys whom I had just chosen on a "peak" basis, and more career WAR too. He didn't "feel like a Hall of Famer" to me, but at least given where I drew the line, he turns out to be one.

Viola is an interesting case, but I think his relatively good WAR7 is just a function of happening to have exactly seven good seasons.

• All of this, by the way, is further indication that Jack Morris is not the best pitcher of his generation. Just in case you were confused on that point.

• Bernie Williams is 4th among the group in oWAR: Whitaker, Palmeiro, Edgar, then Bernie. Perhaps he would have been wiser to become a DH like Edgar, but he made the mistake of becoming a center fielder, so let's look at his defensive stats. He has -40 fielding runs in four Gold Glove seasons, 1997-2000. Sounds unlikely, but who knows, it could be correct; the Gold Glove obviously is a flawed award. He also has -22 fielding runs in 2002. If we do accept that he was -10 per year in his prime, then sure, that is possible. Even if Bernie was as bad defensively as these stats indicate (which I think is debatable), he was still a really good player in these seasons, considering that he was averaging about 6.5 oWAR per season.

What is really making his value appear to dip below the HOF level is the -74 fielding runs in 2003-2006... which are seasons that he doesn't even need for his case at all. I mean, I personally don't hold bad seasons against a player in HOF consideration, but it's generally not a crazy notion. This, however, is quite an extreme version of it. A guy would be a Hall of Famer if he retired after 33, but he keeps playing, and manages to play himself back out, not even by not hitting, but by not being able to play center field well? I don't think it makes any sense.

• Although of course Paul O'Neill is not a Hall of Famer, he also wasn't "just one of the guys" on that team like I remembered him as. 179th best hitter all-time by the Rosenheck system, ahead of e.g. Olerud, is not bad. Actually, I can't imagine how he could be better than Olerud, but anyway.

• I'd be curious to know why Will Clark does so well in Rosenheck, and Lofton does so poorly. Despite my general belief in Rosenheck, I sided with WAR/JAWS in both cases. I think erring in favor of the non-1B during the sillyball era is the safer play.
   92. Baldrick Posted: January 04, 2014 at 05:39 AM (#4629754)
What is really making his value appear to dip below the HOF level is the -74 fielding runs in 2003-2006... which are seasons that he doesn't even need for his case at all. I mean, I personally don't hold bad seasons against a player in HOF consideration, but it's generally not a crazy notion. This, however, is quite an extreme version of it. A guy would be a Hall of Famer if he retired after 33, but he keeps playing, and manages to play himself back out, not even by not hitting, but by not being able to play center field well? I don't think it makes any sense.

I don't think you'll find many takers for the idea that Williams was a HOFer after 2002. He had 6500 plate appearances, which would be a REALLY short career. Pujols or Griffey or Bonds are HOFers after 10 seasons. You have to be genuinely great to cross the hurdle that quickly, and Williams wasn't. He was certainly on a HOF track up until that point but he needed several more seasons of genuine value. And he didn't get them.

Very good player. But he probably wasn't great enough, and couldn't stay good for long enough, to be a HOFer unless you've got a pretty big hall - or if there is really good reason to think those defensive numbers are seriously wrong.
   93. BourbonSamurai Is a Lazy Nogoodnik Posted: January 04, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4629776)
Kent
Musings
Sosa
Whitaker
   94. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2014 at 10:49 AM (#4629796)
Pujols or Griffey or Bonds are HOFers after 10 seasons... [Bernie] probably wasn't great enough, and couldn't stay good for long enough, to be a HOFer unless you've got a pretty big hall
Not that big, IMO. Certainly not small either, but if you're willing to put in e.g. the aforementioned Kevin Appier, that means you think that ten great but not otherworldly seasons can suffice...
   95. Blackadder Posted: January 04, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4629858)
Kevin Appier
Kevin Brown
Will Clark
David Cone
Dwight Gooden
Kenny Lofton
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Bret Saberhagen
Sammy Sosa
Dave Stieb
Larry Walker
Lou Whitaker

   96. bookbook Posted: January 04, 2014 at 02:09 PM (#4629956)
I wouldn't vote him in, but compared to other HOVG players (like Ventura, O'Neill, etc.) Olerud is getting very little love. The man has a 129 OBP-heavy OPS+ with good defense and by reputation at least positive contributions to a winning culture.
Kevin Brown
Gooden
Hershiser
Kent
Edgar
Dennis Martinez
Mussina
Palmeiro
Larry Walker
Whitaker

Julio Franco should get his own wing,

(I'm not sure why the list includes Edgar and Mussina but not Trammell and Schilling? Just because it's obvious we'd all vote for them?)

   97. Jittery McFrog Posted: January 04, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4629963)
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Kevin Brown
Dave Stieb
Bret Saberhagen
Kevin Appier
David Cone
Lou Whitaker
Kenny Lofton
Sammy Sosa
Dwight Gooden
   98. DL from MN Posted: January 04, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4630007)
I'm not big on Bernie or Lofton but I think the gap between them is smaller than the gap in the voting, especially when you consider postseason.
   99. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: January 04, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4630029)
98 -- What makes you say that? Are you not buying Lofton's supposedly massively better defense? Even if I cut off Bernie after 2002, I can only get him up to about Chet Lemon after lots of postseason credit. Lofton's still a lot better than that. I'd have to cut about 6 Defensive Wins off of Lofton to get him even with Bernie.
   100. DL from MN Posted: January 04, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4630041)
6 wins over a 15 year career isn't a whole lot.
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