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Monday, November 13, 2006

Bob Watson

Eligible in 1990.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2006 at 08:44 PM | 17 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2006 at 08:49 PM (#2236632)
Loved Bill James' comparison of Watson to Highpockets Kelly. He totally destroyed the latter's claim to to the HOF, since almost nobody thinks the former is a worthy despite Watson's superior credentials.
   2. OCF Posted: November 13, 2006 at 08:55 PM (#2236645)
I remember going to a game in the Astrodome when I was in college (that would have to have been sometime during 1971-75). What I remember of the defensive alignment was that it looked to me like Watson was playing "left field line" while Cesar CedeƱo covered center and left. Of course, with Luzinski also on the ballot, he might not be the least mobile LF we have.
   3. rico vanian Posted: November 13, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#2236741)
Bob Watson scored baseball's one-millionth run of all time May 4, 1975 in history. I remember when it happened it was sort of a big deal.
   4. Steve Treder Posted: November 13, 2006 at 09:55 PM (#2236746)
Bob Watson scored baseball's one-millionth run of all time May 4, 1975 in history. I remember when it happened it was sort of a big deal.

I remember that too. I was there that day:

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05041SFN1975.htm

Watson scored the run on a 3-run homer by Milt May.
   5. JPWF13 Posted: November 13, 2006 at 10:08 PM (#2236771)
Watson's top 2 BBref Comps (tie for #1 actuallY) are Kelly and Conine...

Kelly and Conine were roughy equivalent as offensive players, Kelly was basically Conine with a better glove...
How did Kelly make the HOF??? Cronyism? I guess, but what amazes me as that as far as I know, no one complained about his induction until years later.

None of Kelly's BBref comps (most of whom were better than he was) made the HOF- his raw numbers (compiled during the greatest hitting era in Baseball history- which says a lot considering what we've seen since 1994) just are not HOF numbers- how did he get in???
   6. Steve Treder Posted: November 13, 2006 at 10:24 PM (#2236799)
how did he get in???

The same way Travis Jackson got in: he was Frank Frisch's teammate.
   7. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: November 14, 2006 at 10:46 AM (#2237342)
I thought Freddie Lindstrom got in for being Frisch's teammate...or was it Ross Youngs?
   8. Richard Posted: November 14, 2006 at 11:02 AM (#2237347)
I thought Freddie Lindstrom got in for being Frisch's teammate...or was it Ross Youngs?

All of them and more (eg Dave Bancroft)
   9. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 14, 2006 at 03:21 PM (#2237412)
Don't forget Chick Hafey!

The Frisch era has got to be considered the lowest moment of any Hall-of-Fame-type institution in our country.

Could we draw a cross-industry parrallel here like this?

Frankie Frisch = Ken Lay (or Bernie Evers or Dennis Kozlowski)
   10. JPWF13 Posted: November 14, 2006 at 04:16 PM (#2237459)
don't forget jesse haines
   11. ronw Posted: November 14, 2006 at 05:18 PM (#2237517)
(I love how Bob Watson digresses) Let's stop just blaming Frankie for some of these players. After all, Frankie died in March of 1973. I think we need to blame Bill Terry too.

Frankie's electees were probably Jesse Haines (1970), Chick Hafey (1971), Dave Bancroft (1971), Ross Youngs (1972), and George Kelly (1973). Maybe he had enough influence from the grave to push Jim Bottomley (1974).

Frisch had been dead for some time when former teammates/competitors Freddy Lindstrom (1976), Hack Wilson (1979), Chuck Klein (1980), and Travis Jackson (1982) made it. I think those were Bill Terry's fault.

For lurkers, I think the HOM would call Haines, Hafey, Youngs, Kelly, Bottomley, Lindstrom, and Jackson mistakes. Bancroft, Wilson and Klein aren't HOMers, but are still getting votes from some people here.
   12. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 14, 2006 at 05:36 PM (#2237537)
OK,

Frisch = Lay
Terry = Skilling

; )
   13. Steve Treder Posted: November 14, 2006 at 05:38 PM (#2237539)
Frisch = Lay
Terry = Skilling


That's about right.
   14. Traderdave Posted: November 14, 2006 at 05:55 PM (#2237553)
Enron?

I could use another one.
   15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 14, 2006 at 06:01 PM (#2237557)
(I love how Bob Watson digresses) Let's stop just blaming Frankie for some of these players. After all, Frankie died in March of 1973. I think we need to blame Bill Terry too.

I don't blame either one. I blame the whole setup.
   16. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 14, 2006 at 06:23 PM (#2237582)
John,

I think the set-up certainly enabled and perhaps encouraged the behavior, and certainly the Hall itself should have used greater oversight on the proceedings to ensure quality, but I do think that Terry and Frisch (as the obvious ring leaders) suffered a major lapse of judgment.

The best-case on the logic to electing all of their teammates would have to go like this:
1) Our teams were great.
2) They must have been great because they contained lots of great players.
2a) And anyway, I ___(Frankie or Bill)___ saw them play and will testify to it.
3) We should induct lots of those guys because they were great by point 2.
4) Guys on other teams with similar numbers aren't as worthy because their teams weren't as great AND I ___(Frankie or Bill)___ didn't see them enough to know.

The worst case would be this:
1) I liked my teammates.
2) I'm going to induct as many of them as I can before they tell me to quit it.

In between there's also this one:
1) In year one, Frisch says, "Guys, we need more guys from the great teams I was on. They were filled with great players! I think Jesse Haines should go in." [Jesse Haines!!!???!!!!] And he gets his way.
2) Frisch comes back the next year and says: "Guys, you know Chick Hafey and Dave Bancroft were every bit as good as Jesse Haines! Let's put 'em in." And he gets his way.
3) And on and on with relatively little critical thought behind whether these guys were actually that good or not.

I don't know much about Frisch and Terry as personalities, but it seems to me that other 10 or so guys on the comittee deserve a lot of blame for not stepping in and stemming the tide of less-than-iffy crony inductions. Did F and T have naughty pictures of them or something?
   17. Steve Treder Posted: November 14, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#2237793)
I don't know much about Frisch and Terry as personalities

They were both very strong personalities; natural leaders (both were successful player-managers), highly intelligent. Frisch was gregarious, witty, a great storyteller, while Terry was harder-edged, kind of sarcastic, a sharp businessman who didn't suffer fools gladly. It isn't hard to imagine either of them having very strong influence on the proceedings of any activity they set their minds to.

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