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Monday, January 27, 2014

Carlos Delgado

Eligible in 2015

DL from MN Posted: January 27, 2014 at 11:42 AM | 18 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 28, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4647342)
He's more HOVG than HOF or HOM but at his best he was really an intimidating hitter to me, beyond what should have been expected given his already considerable ability. You just expected him to mash when he was facing your favorite team. I loved watching him hit for the Mets. His homers always seems like they were no doubters.

Where does he rank all-time amongst Met hitters in homers hit as a first baseman?
   2. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 28, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4647360)
#1--He's the all-time leader.

Delgado: 101
Kranepool: 98
Kingman: 87
   3. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 28, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4647371)
For a team that has been around for more than 50 years, it's pretty sad that their all time leader for homers as a 1B is a guy who only played three full seasons for them and did so when he was already past his prime.
   4. bookbook Posted: January 28, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4647377)
Yeah, but Keith Hernandez was a better player.
   5. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 29, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4647942)
#1--He's the all-time leader.

Delgado: 101
Kranepool: 98
Kingman: 87


How bad is it when Ike Davis is within shouting distance of #1. If he repeats 2012, he'll be at 99.
   6. AROM Posted: January 29, 2014 at 11:11 AM (#4647947)
Too bad Carlos didn't have many postseasons to show his stuff. His regular season record is a match for David Ortiz (granted Ortiz will continue to add to his totals, and Carlos won't). Carlos played to 37, as Ortiz was last year.

OPS+ 139, 138
OPS 930,929
hits 2023, 2038
HR 431, 473 (In Delgado's favor, Ortiz has a similar lead in doubles)
Top 5 OPS+: Ortiz first, then Delgado:

173 171 161 160 158
181 161 160 151 147

Each has 18 triples, Ortiz has one more steal (15-14), both were caught 8 times.

Couldn't be much closer in WAR, 44.3 to 44.2.

As for postseason, we all know what Ortiz has done, but Delgado only had one chance. He made the most of it, hitting 351/442/757 in 10 games of 2006. In the fateful game he was pitched around, 0-1 but with 3 walks, and watched Wainwright v Beltran from the on deck circle.
   7. BDC Posted: January 29, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4647984)
I wonder if it's that unusual for a franchise to have 50 years without a big slugging firstbaseman, though. Here are the LAA/CAL/ANA/LAA HR-as-1B leaders, a year longer in existence:

Player              G  HR
Wally Joyner      868 116
J
.TSnow         481  65
Mark Trumbo       289  60
Kendrys Morales   298  55
Mo Vaughn         219  46 


I'd imagine their coevals have stronger guys (Palmeiro for WAS/TEX, Bagwell for HOU), but the Angels look even more anæmic than the Mets – and Albert isn't exactly making a charge for the top :(

And now I return you from this digression to your regularly scheduled HOM thread.
   8. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 29, 2014 at 12:28 PM (#4648009)
For a team that has been around for more than 50 years, it's pretty sad that their all time leader for homers as a 1B is a guy who only played three full seasons for them and did so when he was already past his prime.


Growing up I used to get Baseball Digest, one of my favorite issues was when they had each team's top 10, boy was the Mets' list putrid- even considering they'd been around for only 20 years it reeked, #1 in HR, Hits, Ribbies, Runs was Ed Freaking Kranepool (who STILL leads in at bats and PAs, though Wright will pass him... Kranepool is now, mercifully, 10th in HR, but theb closest active Met, Ike, is 51 away... He's 5th in Ribbies so he'll stay in their top 10 for many more years...
   9. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: January 29, 2014 at 01:00 PM (#4648029)
For a team that has been around for more than 50 years, it's pretty sad that their all time leader for homers as a 1B is a guy who only played three full seasons for them and did so when he was already past his prime.
The White Sox were the same way through almost 90 years, except Dick Allen was in his prime with them.
   10. Chris Fluit Posted: January 29, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4648187)
Delgado was one of my favorite players when he was in his prime. I remember arriving early at the ballpark to watch him to hit. When I finally buckled down and bought a Blue Jays jersey, it had Delgado's name and number 25 on the back.

As an avowed Delgado fan, it amazes me that of the big first basemen who peaked around the turn of the century, Delgado is most likely the least among them.

Here are some career numbers:

Bagwell: 149 OPS+/9431 PA, +31 baserunning, +54 fielding, 79.5 WAR
Delgado: 138 OPS+/8657 PA, -25 baserunning, -65 fielding, 44.3 WAR
Giambi: 140 OPS+/8838 PA, -16 baserunning, -83 fielding, 51.1 WAR
Helton: 133 OPS+/9453 PA, -14 baserunning, +74 fielding, 61.3 WAR
Thome: 147 OPS+/10,313 PA, -27 baserunning, -45 fielding, 72.8 WAR


And some prime numbers (best 8 seasons consecutive):

Bagwell ('94-'01): 163/5280, +24, +30, 53.0 WAR
Delgado ('98-'05): 153/5216, -14, -33, 37.2 WAR
Giambi ('99-'06): 162/4855, -8, -31, 42.1 WAR
Helton ('00-'07): 150/5405, +4, +45, 48.7 WAR
Thome ('95-'02): 159/4297, -8, -32, 44.4 WAR


Bagwell blows the field away. He's the best hitter, whether it's prime or career. He's the best baserunner and the second-best fielder, slightly behind Helton.

Giambi and Thome also outhit Delgado. Giambi had the much better prime (162 to 153 OPS+) though he gave some of that away by hanging around for a longer career (only 140 to 138). Thome, however, crushes Delgado on both prime (159 to 153) and career (147 to 138). On the other hand, the fielding numbers overstate Delgado's deficiency as both Giambi and Thome spent significant time at DH (575 games for Giambi and 818 for Thome, compared to 185 Delgado).

Then there's Helton. Delgado was the better hitter career-wise (138 to 133) and even had a slightly better prime (153 to 150). However, Helton was a much better fielder (+74 to -65 career) and was actually an asset on the bases during his prime years (+4 baserunning compared to -24 for Delgado). The well-rounded game nudges Helton ahead of Delgado for both career and prime WAR.

Thome should fly into the HoM easily like Bagwell before him. Helton should make it in as well, though he'll probably have to fight it out for an open spot with current frontloggers Kent, Lofton and Sosa. I have a feeling that both Giambi and Delgado will fall short- though Giambi at least has a puncher's chance. Of course, that ignores the already-elected Frank Thomas (who peaked a little bit earlier) and the dead-lock Albert Pujols (who arrived a little later).

   11. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: January 29, 2014 at 04:23 PM (#4648215)
Delgado seems to me the epitome of a HoVG hitter, not quite enough either in peak or career to make it. But he was a great, great player and deserving of commemoration.
   12. Jim Wisinski Posted: January 29, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4648240)
Hearing about Delgado will always make me remember two things. First, his contract with the Marlins which showed just how much of an effort they were willing to make to be cheap, paying him barely anything the first year and then trading him to the Mets before the expensive seasons started.

The second thing is Delgado vs. Jorge Sosa. Delgado had 34 PAs against Sosa, more than any other batter. He hit .500/.529/.1321 with half of his 14 hits being home runs and at one point homered in five straight PAs vs. Sosa.
   13. OCF Posted: January 29, 2014 at 11:06 PM (#4648426)
I like having threads like this. No one is really making much of a push that we ought to elect him, but we can still talk about how good he was. The Ray Lankford thread was like that, too.
   14. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 29, 2014 at 11:56 PM (#4648444)
By OPS+ (and rBAT), Carlos Delgado's third best season was 2005 with the Marlins. He hit .301/.399/.582 with 33 homers and 41 doubles.

Yet BB-Ref calculates his WAR on that year as just 2.8--same as Toby Hall and Tadahito Iguchi and Jason Larue. Why? Well, they determine he gave up 20 runs on defense--20 runs worse than the average player.

It ranks as the third worst defensive season by a first baseman in baseball history (behind Mike Jacobs and Prince Fielder).
   15. Banta Posted: January 30, 2014 at 12:40 AM (#4648462)
Mike Jacobs posted that season for the Marlins in 2008. It's interesting that two of the worst defensive seasons in the history of baseball would occur for the same team but with different players within three years of each other.
   16. Squash Posted: January 30, 2014 at 01:14 AM (#4648465)
It ranks as the third worst defensive season by a first baseman in baseball history (behind Mike Jacobs and Prince Fielder).

Imagine if he'd stayed at catcher.

Although who knows, maybe his numbers would have been better at catcher. I'm not sure what Delgado's fundamental flaw was, but given his size I'm guessing it was probably range. Perhaps that might have been mitigated at catcher, though I don't imagine he would have been beautiful back there.

Mike Jacobs posted that season for the Marlins in 2008. It's interesting that two of the worst defensive seasons in the history of baseball would occur for the same team but with different players within three years of each other.

More than that, they were even traded for each other!


Delgado was one of the great sillyball hitters - his 2000, when he inexplicably hit .344 and walked more than he struck out was a monster.
   17. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 30, 2014 at 06:48 AM (#4648479)
#16-- Not sure how much it matters (I can never read defensive stats), but Carlos Delgado led all first basemen in errors 3 times and finished in the top 5 six other times.
   18. Chris Cobb Posted: February 02, 2014 at 09:12 PM (#4650472)
It may be worth noting that BB-Ref War is the low outlier with respect to Delgado's fielding among the available metrics

BB-Ref -65 runs
BP -35 runs
DRA -11 runs
Davenport WAR +5 runs

Even if Delgado was an average fielder at first base, he doesn't have enough bat to be a serious HoM candidate, but it's quite possible he wasn't quite the butcher with the glove that BB-Ref suggests.

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