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Sunday, May 06, 2007

Carlton Fisk

Eligible in 1999.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 06, 2007 at 06:00 PM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 06, 2007 at 06:04 PM (#2355954)
Will the original Pudge go in his first year? I hope so, but the Ryan mythology might be too much for him with the HoM as it was with the HOF.
   2. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: May 06, 2007 at 06:36 PM (#2356027)
I think this group will rightly elect Fisk first, Ryan after.

There's a whole generation of people, probably me included, who remember Fisk more for his getting in the face of Deion Sanders than for his WS homer. Not in the sense of not knowing about it (not seeing it ad naseum throughout the years), but in the sense that his career was so long that a person who started following baseball in the 1980s had a different sense of Fisk than someone from a previous generation of fans.
   3. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: May 06, 2007 at 08:44 PM (#2356302)
Which cap does Fisk get?
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 06, 2007 at 08:59 PM (#2356318)
Boston, Ivan.
   5. DL from MN Posted: May 07, 2007 at 01:50 PM (#2356996)
Not quite as good as Gary Carter, still a shoo-in.
   6. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: May 07, 2007 at 08:37 PM (#2357519)
Remember when Tom Boswell was one of the greatest writers in baseball?

I read his old books eons ago. I remember him writing about Fisk's 1985 season. How a guy, nicknamed Pudge as a young'un had remade his body by working out, and at age 37 had maybe the best year of his career, coming in second in homers with 37. All while playing the most physichally demanding position in baseball. In light of recent baseball news, I've always wondered if he was an early 'roider.

Great player for an absurdly long time. Many people have played in four decades. How many, while in their fourth decade, got selected to an ASG? Fisk did in '91. He was older than several players in the old timers game that year.

Between Baines & Thomas, he was briefly the Sox all-time home run leader.
   7. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: May 07, 2007 at 08:47 PM (#2357532)
He only had a 115 OPS+ that year, though, because of his really low average (.238). No, Pudge's really impressive season is 1990; .285/.378/.451, 134 OPS+, 116 games caught, 521 PA, 42 years old.
   8. DavidFoss Posted: May 07, 2007 at 08:58 PM (#2357547)
How many, while in their fourth decade, got selected to an ASG? Fisk did in '91

Ted Williams
Early Wynn
Carlton Fisk
   9. jingoist Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:04 PM (#2357550)
If Bonds keeps his current streak up through mid-June he might well become #4
   10. jingoist Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:08 PM (#2357557)
Actually, Tom Boswell is still a terrific baseball writer, however he has spread his purview to include all sports in the Washington, DC area.
Nobody does an analysis of character like Boswell; his 5+ year running fued with the Orioles owner Peter Angelos has spawned some of the best reading since the Steinbrenner-Martin brouhahas of the 1980's.
   11. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:09 PM (#2357558)
If Bonds keeps his current streak up through mid-June he might well become #4


Wrong 4th decade. He's not talking about 40 year olds, but players in their 4th calendar decade, as in 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.
   12. DCW3 Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:14 PM (#2357568)
In his rookie season in 1972, Fisk had a 162 OPS+. The previous highest OPS+ by a catcher (min. 502 PAs) was 159 (by Roy Campanella in 1951). Unfortunately for Fisk's place in history, Johnny Bench had a 166 OPS+ that very same year. Fisk still had the AL catcher record, which stood until it was topped by Chris Hoiles in 1993.
   13. sunnyday2 Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:35 PM (#2357592)
So, about Robin Yount...
   14. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:38 PM (#2357600)
Take it to the Fisk thread.
   15. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:39 PM (#2357602)
Oops, this is the Fisk thread.

Nevermind.
   16. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:48 PM (#2357611)
In his rookie season in 1972, Fisk had a 162 OPS+. The previous highest OPS+ by a catcher (min. 502 PAs) was 159 (by Roy Campanella in 1951). Unfortunately for Fisk's place in history, Johnny Bench had a 166 OPS+ that very same year. Fisk still had the AL catcher record, which stood until it was topped by Chris Hoiles in 1993.

One of these players is not like the other.
   17. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: May 07, 2007 at 09:58 PM (#2357624)
One of these players is not like the other.

Why the animosity towards Bench?
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 07, 2007 at 10:18 PM (#2357650)
Why the animosity towards Bench?


No drips, no runs, no errors.
   19. DavidFoss Posted: May 07, 2007 at 10:25 PM (#2357670)
One of these players is not like the other.

Hoiles was a better hitter than I remember. If you triple the length of his career and rearrange his PA's to improve his in season durability, he'd be a great HOM candidate.

(Of course, that's a big adjustment :-))
   20. sunnyday2 Posted: May 08, 2007 at 11:08 PM (#2358803)
Catchers (retired) according to Reputation Monitor.

1. Berra 303
2. Bench 286
3. Carter 277
4. Fisk 250--all she wrote
5. Hartnett 245
6. Campy 245
7. Dickey 244
8. Cochrane 232

9. Ewing 196
10. Munson 181

Munson was better than Fisk during the period Thurman was active, but it's a rout overall. An obvious HoMer. 250 isn't inner circle at other positions but at catcher, well, look he's ahead of.
   21. jimd Posted: May 09, 2007 at 09:13 PM (#2359690)
Munson was better than Fisk during the period Thurman was active,

Depends largely on your definition of better.
Munson played more while Fisk had better rates.

(Following is reprinted from the Munson thread.)

Fisk was 6 months younger than Munson.
If we also end Fisk's career after 1979,
then we get the following snapshots.

Win Shares: Munson 206 - Fisk 164
Games: Munson 1423 - Fisk 947
WS/162G: Munson 23.5 - Fisk 28.1
FWS: Munson 62.3 - Fisk 45.2
FWS/162G: Munson 7.1 - Fisk 7.7

Munson's edge lay in his ability to stay on the field, to avoid the injuries that plagued the younger Fisk. That edge also might have shortened his career, if the plane crash hadn't ended it prematurely.

WARP comes to the same conclusion, though it rates Fisk and Munson as even defensively (107) through 1979. While Munson hit for the higher average, Fisk was the better hitter, due to his extra walks and his slugging.

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