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Monday, December 10, 2007

Charlie Grant

Eligible in 1922.

Charlie Grant

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2007 at 03:38 PM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2007 at 03:42 PM (#2639933)
Better late than never.
   2. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: December 10, 2007 at 03:47 PM (#2639939)
This is the guy McGraw tried to pass off as a Native American, right?
   3. sunnyday2 Posted: December 10, 2007 at 04:07 PM (#2639966)
Yeah, Chief Tokahama or something like that.
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2007 at 06:58 PM (#2640227)
Does anyone know what year Grant would have been eligible for the HoM?
   5. Gary A Posted: December 10, 2007 at 08:57 PM (#2640418)
I posted some of the newspaper coverage of McGraw's attempt to get Grant into the American League in 1901 here.
   6. Gary A Posted: December 10, 2007 at 09:11 PM (#2640438)
Also, here is a brief item about Charlie Grant from 1916. IIRC, he was playing for a club called the Cincinnati Stars about this time.
   7. Chris Cobb Posted: December 11, 2007 at 01:50 AM (#2640839)
Re Charlie Grant's eligibility: most of the eligibility dates were based on the information from Riley. Riley has Grant's last season as 1916, playing for the Cincinnati Stars. So he would have become eligible in 1922. He was born in 1879, so the NeL birth-year exception to the normal eligibility delay of five full seasons does not apply to his case.
   8. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 11, 2007 at 03:16 PM (#2641183)
Thanks, Chris!
   9. Paul Wendt Posted: December 13, 2007 at 05:02 AM (#2643319)
[
copied verbatim from Bill Monroe ]
>>
52. Paul Wendt Posted: December 09, 2007 at 11:00 AM (#2639385)
Our general knowledge of his time and place (black ball c.1900) is spotty and we don't know of a lot of data on Monroe, either. He immediately achieved HOM status as a serious candidate and he remained eligible forever because he wasn't elected. The HOF elected Sol White, so his thread shouldn't be the dumping ground for everything related to anything in his book. Those have been some causes for me, at least and the main culprit, to make Bill Monroe's thread a repository of material sometimes far from his own case. (Excuse me, Bill.) That Gary A and burniswright are here on the same track inspires me to continue.
------

What if anything did Lloyd say about Charlie Grant, a star about about ten years older who was his 2Bman when Lloyd joined the Philadelphia Giants?

Charlie Grant has been practically under the radar here. Riley calls him one of the first black stars. John McGraw signed him as Chief Tokohoma in 1901 to play for the new Baltimore Orioles (AL). He played for leading teams most of 1896-1907, usually at second base. This is gleaned from White, Riley, Holway's Complete Book, and a few box scores:

1896-1898 Page Fence Giants
1899-1901 Columbia(n) Giants
1902 ?
1903 Cuban X-Giants and Phila.
1904-1907 Philadelphia Giants
1906 Cuban X-Giants too (Riley)

Is he the most famous player without a thread?
What do we in the 21st century know about his play?


53. sunnyday2 Posted: December 09, 2007 at 11:23 AM (#2639397)
We elected Frank Grant but I'd be hard pressed to tell you why. Not that he's not worthy. But what little we know about Frank Grant, Sol White and Bill Monroe provides virtually no way to differentiate among them that I can see. Not to even mention Charlie Grant. Charlie was differentiated however in the sense that however little we know about Frank, Sol and Bill, we know substantially less about Charlie.


54. burniswright Posted: December 10, 2007 at 04:07 AM (#2639840)
OK, these are some notes that Dom Denaro and I put together on Sol White and the Grant boys. If anybody who's senior to me here wants to move them to a different thread, be my guest. Actually, now that I think about it, everybody is senior to me here.

On Charlie Grant: there is every evidence that Grant was an excellent ballplayer, or McGraw wouldn't have tried the stunt that he did. Plus, as Paul Wendt points out, he played on the best teams of his era between 1896 and 1906. The problem with Charley is that he disappears from my radar at age 30. I honestly haven't a clue what he was doing during what should have been the second half of his career. Without that information, I don't see how we can make a viable case for him. Was he injured? On lesser teams? Darned if I know. Of the three, this is the guy who's a very real problem to evaluate.
<<

[burniswright wrote much more on Frank Grant and Sol White]
   10. Paul Wendt Posted: June 08, 2008 at 11:18 PM (#2812272)
Gleaned from the Chicago Tribune 1901 May 18-19

May 17
The Columbia Giants of Chicago) defeated the Greens of South Bend 5-3 in Milford, Indiana.

South Bend IN, May 18 -
"Charlie Grant, Captain and 2B of the Columbia Giants, who was signed by McGraw of the Baltimore team early this season as an Indian, under the name of Tokohoma, has been ordered to report to Baltimore at Boston on Monday."

--
This was soon after the suspension of McGraw by AL President Ban Johnson. I don't even know that this report is true but I suspect that McGraw had some showdown in mind.
   11. Paul Wendt Posted: June 08, 2008 at 11:28 PM (#2812291)
Gleaned from the Chicago Tribune 1901 May 18-19

May 17
The Columbia Giants of Chicago) defeated the Greens of South Bend 5-3 in Milford, Indiana.

South Bend IN, May 18 -
"Charlie Grant, Captain and 2B of the Columbia Giants, who was signed by McGraw of the Baltimore team early this season as an Indian, under the name of Tokohoma, has been ordered to report to Baltimore at Boston on Monday."

--
This was soon after the suspension of McGraw by AL President Ban Johnson. I don't even know that this report is true but I suspect that McGraw had some showdown in mind.

--
My source is one item compiled by Gary A. is for Agatetype, which he linked above.
On the Chief Tokohama affair
   12. Howie Menckel Posted: June 09, 2008 at 12:05 AM (#2812326)
I vaguely recall that FRANK Grant played with and against players that McPhee did as well. So we were able to lock in to some extent what sort of player he might have been.

Not saying that's dispositive; I think that helped Frank's cause a bit, however.
   13. Paul Wendt Posted: June 09, 2008 at 12:06 AM (#2812328)
Gary,
Some info on 1900 and 1903 baseball tours to Cuba
See #12-15 for that. This is a digression from a thread that may also interest you.
   14. Paul Wendt Posted: June 09, 2008 at 04:46 PM (#2812852)
copied from agatetype, emphasis mine
>>
On March 29, the Boston Globe reported that “Toke” would accompany Jimmy Sheckard and Joe McGinnity from Arkansas to New Orleans, where the three would embark for Baltimore in time for opening day.

Two days later, on March 31, the Washington Post reported in its “Baseball Notes” column that “there is a report in circulation that Manager McGraw’s Indian player is not a Cherokee at all, but is the old-time colored player, Grant” (confusing him with Frank Grant). The same column noted that Grant, who had been listed among the outfielders, was now to be tried out again at second base. Somebody, however, was not letting go of the story. On April 2, the Post reiterated its “outing” of Grant: “It is being persistently stated that ‘Tokohama,” McGraw’s Cherokee Indian, is Grant, the old negro player.”
<<

Milwaukee Daily News 1901 Mar 29 (Friday) simply reports that Tokohoma is Charlie Grant of the Columbia Giants. It is a six-day afternoon newspaper. Monday Apr 01 it reports his denial that he is a negro and his departure from Hot Springs to join the Orioles. I'll try to provide copy.
   15. Paul Wendt Posted: June 10, 2008 at 12:54 AM (#2813420)
from Milwaukee Daily News, Monday Apr 01 and Friday Mar 29 (copied out of order)
http://download.yousendit.com/EB5B1D2C49059774
That file contains photocopies of the first two of four items.

>>
0329 F
Tokohoma is Charlie Grant

0401 M
Tokohoma denies that he is a negro ... ; dep Hot Springs yday for Cin, on to Bal

0405 H
Tokohama) McGraw "expects McGinnity, Sheckard, Snodgrass, and the Indian today"; dep Hot Springs Tue

0409 T
"Tokohoma, the Cherokee Indian, will play with the Columbian Giants again this year. When it became known that McGraw's find was not a full-blooded Indian he was informed that he was not wanted. He will act as manager of the [Columbia] Giants again this season."
<<

(The two notes of departure from Hot Springs are inconsistent; Monday Apr 01 "yday" would have been Sunday. This is probably my mistake. One or two off-by-one problems with event dates or publication dates. Not-quite-completed just at closing time.)
   16. Paul Wendt Posted: June 10, 2008 at 02:19 PM (#2813711)
Here is that link, good for seven days. I sent email notice to Gary A so this will probably show up at agatetype on one of the Charlie Grant pages
Tokohoma denies that he is a negro ... [several lines]
two photocopies out of sequence: 0401 precedes 0329

(The two notes of departure from Hot Springs are inconsistent; Monday Apr 01 "yday" would have been Sunday. This is probably my mistake. One or two off-by-one problems with event dates or publication dates. Not-quite-completed just at closing time.)
No mistake.
I have confirmed the reported dates of departure from Hot Springs: "yesterday" reported Mon 0401, "Tuesday" reported Thu 0405 (0401 and 0405 are Chicago Tribune publication dates). I presume that the Monday report of Sunday departure was a false alarm. The Thursday report is fuller and the timing fits, Hot Springs to Baltimore in two days. (via Cin by rail, not via New Orleans)

0405 H
quoted entirely: "Manager McGraw was informed by telegraph that Pitcher McG, accompanied by Sheckard, Snodgrass, and the Indian, would arrive in Baltimore today, as they started from Hot Springs Tueesday."
   17. Paul Wendt Posted: June 15, 2008 at 06:06 PM (#2820245)
Here is what newspaper coverage of the Chief Tokohoma affair I could find in Milwaukee Daily News, Chicago Tribune, Baltimore Morning Sun, and Washington Post. There isn't a lot, unless your expectations are low. In every case I have marked the Tokohoma paragraph so it is easy to find quickly, and I have never cropped the image so it may be interesting to skim the whole. For Milwaukee and Baltimore, from microfilm, the context is always a sports page, although sports is usually less than a full page in these newspapers; usually the context is baseball coverage. For Chicago and Washington, from proQuest.com, the image is normally a single article that may be a Baseball Notes column.

web addresses good for 7 days
MDN
http://download.yousendit.com/95F04E417A649129
CT
http://download.yousendit.com/4208E7D3034814C5
BMS
http://download.yousendit.com/69B222D62BAB52F7
WP
http://download.yousendit.com/B514BEDC048201EB

- fewer than 20 tidbits in all, March to May 1901

The Tokohoma affair falls entirely within a gap in the Baltimore Afro-American Ledger, National Edition, microfilm by Recordak, New York City branch. I did not check any other "black newspaper". BAA was then weekly. One source on Chicago Defender calls it the first successful daily beginning 1905.
   18. Paul Wendt Posted: June 15, 2008 at 06:26 PM (#2820287)
The Chief Tokohoma affair: Charlie Grant and the new Baltimore Orioles
Milwaukee Daily News
Chicago Tribune
Baltimore Morning Sun
Washington Post


Charlie Grant was from Cincinnati, his birthplace and deathplace. In 1900 and 1901 he was a professional ballplayer based in Chicago, and he worked at Hot Springs AR that winter, but I guess that Cincinnati was still his home.

According to one timeline on the web, the Cincinnati Enquirer 1901-03-11 published a notice of Grant's or Tokohoma's signing by McGraw. That matches the earliest item I have posted here, and the earliest I know, from the Baltimore Morning Sun same date.

March 11, 1901, was a Monday.
In the Baltimore paper that morning, Wilbert Robinson identified the Indian by name "Grant". The wording of the report suggests to me that the item was unremarkable, as if the arrangement for Grant or a Cherokee Indian to play for the Orioles was known to the author and the presumed readers. Robinson was then working out with several ballplayers in Baltimore while McGraw was resting and recruiting in Hot Springs AR, in communication by telegraph.
   19. KJOK Posted: September 17, 2011 at 06:21 AM (#3927845)

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