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Saturday, March 17, 2007

Connie Marrero

Eligible in 1960.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 17, 2007 at 08:19 PM | 10 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 17, 2007 at 08:37 PM (#2313538)
According to Brent from the Wikipedia, Connie is the sixth oldest major leaguer who is still with us today.
   2. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: March 17, 2007 at 09:05 PM (#2313549)
Just thinking out loud here...


Does the fact that Marrero pitched competantly in MLB from age 38-41 indicate that he would have been a star in his prime? I'm not sure. Pitching isn't like hitting, where above-average perforance at age 38 almost always translates back to star-caliber play at age 27. You can be mediocre for a long time, great for only a season, and all points in-between.

In addition, Marrero was used as a Sunday pitcher. I have no quantitative data to back this up, but it seems to me that Sunday pitchers tended to outperform what'd you expect from them based upon age & previous record; it was a highly effective way to use a pitcher.

Summing up, I don't think Marrero's big league record tells us anything beyond the fact that he was an above-average pitcher. But so were plenty of guys who aren't in the HoM.
   3. Brent Posted: March 18, 2007 at 03:56 AM (#2313663)
Marrero pitched 735 major league innings past the age of 38. I believe there are 18 pitchers with more innings at that age. 12 of them are or probably will be elected HoMers:

P Niekro, Young, Ryan, Spahn, Perry, Faber, Wilhelm, Sutton, Vance, Alexander, Wynn, Clemens

Among the other 6 are a couple of guys who get or will get some votes:

Quinn, Hough, John, Moyer, Wells, J Niekro.

If we drop to 635 innings past age 38, we get several more HoMers (Carlton, Seaver, Plank) and others who aren't (Sad Sam Jones, Leonard, Niggeling, Adams, Koosman).

So, the fact that he pitched well at an advanced age doesn't necessarily mean that Marrero was a HoMer, but it's a characteristic that is common for HoM-quality pitchers and fairly unusual for non-HoMers.

I'm more impressed by his Cuban League statistics for 1946-49 (in comparison to 1950-54), which suggest that he was a better pitcher from ages 35-37 than he was in the majors at ages 38-42.
   4. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 18, 2007 at 06:21 AM (#2313679)
In Danny Peary's Cult Baseball Players, there is an interview with Marrero, conducted in Havana in 1979. One thing that is mentioned is his strong dislike of the name Connie, which was, like many Latin American players of his era, an Americanization of his given name, Conrado. In respect to his own preference, could we change the name on the thread?
   5. yest Posted: March 18, 2007 at 08:09 AM (#2313684)
Marrero pitched 735 major league innings past the age of 38. I believe there are 18 pitchers with more innings at that age. 12 of them are or probably will be elected HoMers:

P Niekro, Young, Ryan, Spahn, Perry, Faber, Wilhelm, Sutton, Vance, Alexander, Wynn, Clemens

Among the other 6 are a couple of guys who get or will get some votes:

Quinn, Hough, John, Moyer, Wells, J Niekro.

If we drop to 635 innings past age 38, we get several more HoMers (Carlton, Seaver, Plank) and others who aren't (Sad Sam Jones, Leonard, Niggeling, Adams, Koosman).


in addition to what you showed it seem there were many more pitchers (thes are just the players I found doing minimal reaserch ) who did this some of who are laughable HoM choices (I'm listing all those who I found to have more then 635 IP that wern't listed except for those who were lower on the list then you put them)
these link show
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp2.cgi?I=marreco01:Connie+Marrero&st=int&age=-38&compage=42
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp2.cgi?I=daviscu01:Curt+Davis&st=int&age=-38&compage=41
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp2.cgi?I=lyonste01:Ted+Lyons&st=int&age=-38&compage=39
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp2.cgi?I=rootch01:Charley+Root&st=int&age=-38&compage=42
Johnny Niggeling had 886.3 IP
Bob Smith had 637.3 IP
Rip Sewell had 656.0 IP
Curt Davis had 716.0 IP
Babe Adams had 930.7 IP
Tom Seaver had 882.7 IP
Dutch Leonard had 925.7 IP
Dolf Luque had 714.0 IP
Ted Lyons had 769.3 IP
Greg Maddux had 647.7 IP
Eppa Rixey had 697.7 IP
Dennis Martinez had 840.3 IP
Charley Root had 725.3 IP
Murry Dickson had 699.7 IP
Rick Reuschel had 778.0 IP
Danny Darwin had 645.3 IP
Jim Kaat had 664.7 IP
Jerry Koosman had 787.7 IP
Sam Jones had 848.3 IP
Kenny Rogers had 806.0 IP
Steve Carlton had 942.7 IP
   6. Brent Posted: March 18, 2007 at 03:00 PM (#2313705)
I pulled my list from the Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia, but I guess I was looking at age 39+. BBref lists Marrero as 38 his first season, but SBE has him as 40. I've seen at least a half dozen different birthdates, so it would be prudent not to rely too heavily on a date-of-birth argument.
   7. Brent Posted: March 18, 2007 at 03:07 PM (#2313708)
...SBE has him as <s>40</s> 39. The Pride of Havana also has him as 39 (though the exact birth date differs among all three sources).
   8. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 18, 2007 at 06:48 PM (#2313753)
The book I referenced earlier has a direct quote from Marrero, "I was born in 1911, on April twenty-fifth."

BR has the same date in the Marrero BR Bullpen entry, but lists August 11, 1911 on his player page!
   9. Paul Wendt Posted: March 18, 2007 at 11:26 PM (#2313829)
The integer 'Age' data at baseball-reference or SBE is unsuitable for this kind of argument. Too much depends on when the player's birthday lies during the year. Granted the attraction of counting full seasons for everyone in place of 'number of players with integer baseball Age at least as old' may be
= 1 x number of players with monthly age at least as old
+ 11/12 x number of players one month younger
+ 10/12 x number of players two months younger
etc

(That is, I suggest approximating some integral over age by month or even by day. This doesn't help if the player's age is unknown but if we can quantify the uncertainty . . .)

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