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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, October 20, 2008

Election Results: Starting in Right Field…Ruth, Aaron, Ott and Robinson!

Unanimously (and unsurprisingly), Babe Ruth was crowned king of all right fielders.

Almost as impressive as the Bambino’s results, Hank Aaron nabbed all of the second-place votes available and achieved 95% of all possible points..

Of the others with significant support, Mel Ot earned 89%, while Frank Robinson was close by with 86%.

Thanks to OCF and Ron with the tally!

RK   LY  Player            PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Babe Ruth         500   25  25                                                         
 2  n/e  Hank Aaron        475   25     25                                                      
 3  n/e  Mel Ott           445   25        20  5                                                
 4  n/e  Frank Robinson    430   25         5 20                                                
 5  n/e  Paul Waner        351   25              11  4  3  1  1  2  1  1     1                  
 6  n/e  Pete Rose         345   25               9  5  5     1  1  1     2  1                  
 7  n/e  Sam Crawford      340   25               1  9  3  7  3     2                           
 8  n/e  Reggie Jackson    316   25               2  2  3  6  7  2  2     1                     
 9  n/e  Al Kaline         291   25                  2  5  2  4  6  3     2        1            
10  n/e  Roberto Clemente  261   25                  2  3  4     2  4  2  5     2  1            
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11  n/e  Tony Gwynn        243   25                     1     1  7  5  7  1  1  2               
12  n/e  King Kelly        237   25                  1     4  3     3  5  3  1  3  2            
13  n/e  Joe Jackson       232   25               2     2  1  4  1  2  4  1  1  2  2  1     1  1
14  n/e  Harry Heilmann    178   25                           1  2     3  5  5  3  2  2  2      
15  n/e  Elmer Flick       146   25                              2     1  2  5  5  2  2  5     1
16  n/e  Enos Slaughter    140   25                                 2  1  1  4  4  6  4  1     2
17  n/e  Dave Winfield     101   25                                    1  1  1  2  2  8  3  7   
18  n/e  Willie Keeler      93   25                                       1  2  1  4  2  8  6  1
19  n/e  Dwight Evans       83   25                                          3  1  2  3  5  8  3
20  n/e  Sam Thompson       43   25                                                1  3  1  3 17
Ballots Cast: 25

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 20, 2008 at 11:14 PM | 112 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2
   101. DL from MN Posted: October 23, 2008 at 07:22 PM (#2993235)
Between 33 (Foxx) and 49 (Ripken) on my list for pitchers:

Kid Nichols
Satchel Paige (could change with a new understanding of MLE)
Niekro
Perry
Blyleven
Gibson
Carlton

next is Plank and I don't think anyone else merits this discussion.
   102. stax Posted: October 23, 2008 at 08:03 PM (#2993254)
DL you mention Maddux and Clemens as (obviously) not-yet-eligible inner circle pitchers, but what about Pedro and The Unit?
   103. Paul Wendt Posted: October 23, 2008 at 08:09 PM (#2993261)
Davis and Dahlen - I meant blocked from going even further than four including Vaughan, which general consideration of shortstop as the most talented or Dan Rosenberg as the most daunting may suggest that you do.
--

I have studied some and thought some about the pitchers proportion. I do suppose that I know the Bill James counts 34 (BJHBA, peak) and 29 (BJHBA, career) and 19 (NBJHBA, Dihigo makes 20) from memory, which may be a bad thing. But regarding more elite groups such as top twenty or Top 25, both rather popular endeavors even for non-scholars, I have the accumulated impression from many more people including no more than several self-styled sabrmetricians or experts. Its my impression that many people pick 25 (one modern roster) and fall short of 5 (one modern pitching rotation), except that 25 is inspired by the roster size and they bump up a pitcher or two.

My suggestion 25:10 rather than 25 of 40, however, is simply based on the HOM proportion.

--
I think it's possible that many people will informally put Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, and Rivera all in their vaguely defined elite (although maybe none of them if they stick to 25). However large will be their "Co." in "Ken Griffey Junior and Co.", that will increase the share of pitchers.
   104. Paul Wendt Posted: October 23, 2008 at 08:27 PM (#2993274)
Paul also says, "One night after the game, Bob Broeg let slip the truth of "Country Slaughter Runs All the Way Home", how the St. Louis Wordsmiths crafted the legend. And you are preparing to tell us, maybe tonight after the Series game."

No. I didn't know this one at all. All I ever talked to Bob about with regards to Slaughter was his fielding and a very little about how he was handled by the Yanks and As. All I know about the Series incident is that the hit involved was, apparently, scored a double, not a single, and that Slaughter's rep has rested on that incident since it happened. Do YOU, who are ten times the historian I am, going to tell us? I'd love to know. Thanks.


No, the detail --direct from Bob Broeg after the game-- was colorful fabrication but this is the kind of thing you have taught us many times about St Louis baseball. There you are at least oral historian of the 1940s and 50s, as well as eyewitness and contemporary reader of the sports pages in the 1950s and 60s. (And I am zero historian of the Landis/Frick era, except history of the Hall of Fame itself.)

The most stolen bases that Enos ever had in a season was 9. That is, he was not a baserunning force, nor was he a lunatic on the bases. I would guess that at least half of his career "stolen bases" were really hit and run attempts where the batter missed the ball. You all know why I wrote this paragraph, right?

Maybe not. Except the colorful detail that was my sincere guess, that you were addressing a groundless reputation based on one "Run All the Way Home" from first base on a so-called double that was actually scored a double. The companion piece "When Pesky Held the Ball" has staying power, too, for Johnny Pesky has become immensely popular in Red Sox Nation but without explaining it away.
   105. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: October 23, 2008 at 08:34 PM (#2993285)
Pedro's not close--he doesn't have anything near sufficient career value to compete with these guys.
   106. DL from MN Posted: October 23, 2008 at 09:48 PM (#2993355)
Pedro's sitting shy of Kid Nichols. He actually is close but will probably fall short. Randy Johnson is probably in.

There are no relief pitchers in the inner circle.
   107. bjhanke Posted: October 24, 2008 at 03:13 AM (#2993651)
Paul says, about Slaughter, "Maybe not. Except the colorful detail that was my sincere guess, that you were addressing a groundless reputation based on one "Run All the Way Home" from first base on a so-called double that was actually scored a double."

You got it right. It was just meant as a small note with a little humor included. Just to counteract the impression people have that Enos ran amok all the time. When I was a kid, meaning starting in about 1955, no one in St. Louis talked about Enos any more, because he had become a member of the hated Yankees. For someone who has lived in STL for 60 years, I know very little about Enos other than that he had a rep for a weak glove with a hot arm. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the press in STL, when Enos scored from first, saw an opportunity to create a new Pepper Martin legend, and they ran with it. But Enos was never anything like Martin on the basepaths.

- Brock
   108. bjhanke Posted: October 24, 2008 at 12:29 PM (#2993818)
Paul offers, about the pitcher to position player ratio, "I have studied some and thought some about the pitchers proportion. I do suppose that I know the Bill James counts 34 (BJHBA, peak) and 29 (BJHBA, career) and 19 (NBJHBA, Dihigo makes 20) from memory, which may be a bad thing. But regarding more elite groups such as top twenty or Top 25, both rather popular endeavors even for non-scholars, I have the accumulated impression from many more people including no more than several self-styled sabrmetricians or experts. Its my impression that many people pick 25 (one modern roster) and fall short of 5 (one modern pitching rotation), except that 25 is inspired by the roster size and they bump up a pitcher or two.

My suggestion 25:10 rather than 25 of 40, however, is simply based on the HOM proportion."

Here's my perspective: The front end of a team, averaged throughout history, contains 8 position players and four front-line pitchers. The percentage of pitchers was way less in the 1900s; now it is, really, six - five starters and a closer. But four is about this historical average. I theorize that the ratio in any Hall sort of thing ought to be more or less the same as the makeup of the FRONT line of a roster, because it is only front-line players we're going to be worrying about. That's 8 to 4, or 2 to 1. The suggestions here have been 25:10 and 25:15. I stand right in the middle, at 25:12.5. Comments?

- Brock
   109. stax Posted: October 24, 2008 at 02:27 PM (#2993899)
However large will be their "Co." in "Ken Griffey Junior and Co.", that will increase the share of pitchers.


Griffey, Bonds, ARod, Pujols and then Maddux, Clemens, and Randy Johnson on the pitcher front? Give me 4 replacement position players and 2 replacement pitchers and that's some kind of team. :p

Pedro's not close--he doesn't have anything near sufficient career value to compete with these guys.


Really? I guess that's true, looking at him I really am a bit surprised by the low low IP count.

There are no relief pitchers in the inner circle.


Not yet, but Mariano Rivera (and I will admit he is my favorite player, subjectively, of all time so I'm quite biased) seems closer than almost anyone ever. He is such a massively unique case in terms of consistently high-level of production across his career. Despite almost 1000 more innings for Hoyt Wilhelm, Mo blows him away in PRAA (not to mention DERA, ERA+, OPS+ against, etc). Mariano's career, by PRAA, has essentially the same value as Pedro's. If there was going to be a reliever in the inner circle Mo seems like the choice to me.
   110. Paul Wendt Posted: October 26, 2008 at 12:08 AM (#2994704)
I stand right in the middle, at 25:12.5. Comments?

Bob Caruthers, 0.5:1, that doesn't help.
Babe Ruth, 1:0.5, . . .
ok, 24:12 plus Babe Ruth
   111. bjhanke Posted: October 26, 2008 at 04:31 AM (#2995102)
Paul wags, "Bob Caruthers, 0.5:1, that doesn't help.
Babe Ruth, 1:0.5, . . .
ok, 24:12 plus Babe Ruth"

Haw! You are correct. Babe was a great half-a-pitcher. Actually, that would be a fun exercise sometime. Try to use a method similar to power/speed number to determine who was the greatest pitcher/position player in history. Monte Ward? Caruthers? The Babe?

- Brock
   112. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 29, 2008 at 06:44 AM (#2998410)
Actually, that would be a fun exercise sometime. Try to use a method similar to power/speed number to determine who was the greatest pitcher/position player in history. Monte Ward? Caruthers? The Babe?


Bill James does this in the NBJHBA (page 135), using the harmonic mean of Win Shares earned as a pitcher and as a hitter. His top ten are:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Monte Ward
3. Bob Caruthers
4. Dave Foutz
5. Elmer Smith
6. Kid Gleason
7. Guy Hecker
8. Cy Seymour
9. Nixey Callahan
10. Grasshopper Jim Whitney
Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2

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