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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, July 13, 2008

Election Results: Wagner….Lloyd, Ripken, Vaughan, Davis, Dahlen and Yount Get at Least 75%!

Not surprisingly, all-time great Honus Wagner was unanimously selected as the top shortstop in the Hall of Merit.

John Henry Lloyd narrowly bested Cal Ripken, Jr for second place with his 93% of all possible points compared to Cal’s equally outstanding 91%.

Arky Vaughan wasn’t far behind those two with his 89% for fourth place.

George Davis earned 79% for fifth, while contemporary Bill Dahlen claimed 76%.

Last but not least, Robin Yount was the last to reach 75%.

RK  Player             1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25  PTS
 1. Honus Wagner      24                                                                          600
 2. John Henry Lloyd     15  6  2                       1                                         556
 3. Cal Ripken Jr         6  9  7  1  1                                                           546
 4. Arky Vaughan          2  8 11  3                                                              537
 5. George Davis                1  9  5  4  4        1                                            474
 6. Bill Dahlen                    2 11  4  2  2  3                                               456
 7. Robin Yount                 2  5  5  3  4  2     1  1           1                             451
 8. Luke Appling                   2  2  3  4  4  4  3           1     1                          408
 9. George Wright         1  1  1  2     4  1  1  3     1  3     2     2  1                 1     373
10. Joe Cronin                           2  3  4  2  3  1  2  4  1           1        1           347
11. Ernie Banks                          2  3  1  1  5  3  1  2     1  2  1  1        1           327
12. Willie Wells                         1  1  5  1  2  3  6     1  1     1           2           325
13. Home Run Johnson                           2  3  5  4     2  1  4  1  1  1                    312
14. Ozzie Smith                                2  3  1  4  3  2  4  2  2           1              303
15. Alan Trammell                        1  1     2  2  2  1  3  3  4     1  3     1              283
16. Pee Wee Reese                                 1        4  4  4  2  1  4  1  1  1  1           243
17. Lou Boudreau                            1           1  1  2  2  2  4  3  2  3  1  2           216
18. Jack Glasscock                                      2  1  3        2  4  5  4  1     1     1  195
19. John Ward                                  1           1     3     2  2  1  4  4  3  3        170
20. Hughie Jennings                               1        1     1  1  4  1  1  3  2     3     5  146
21. Dickie Pearce                                    1        2     1        2  4  5  3  2  1  3  135
22. Bobby Wallace                                                   2  1  3  4  1  4  3  2     4  129
23. Dobie Moore                                         1        1  2     1  1  1  2  2  3  6  4  109
24. Dick Lundy                                                      1  2        2  1  2  5  7  5   82
25. Joe Sewell                                                            1  1  1  1  4  5  9  2   77

Thanks to OCF for his help with the tally!

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 13, 2008 at 11:54 PM | 30 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:01 AM (#2855461)
hot topics
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:21 AM (#2855481)
Let's see if this helps any:

Player... Points
1. Honus Wagner.............600

2. Pop Lloyd................556
3. Cal Ripken...............546
4. Arky Vaughan.............537

5. George Davis.............474
6. Bill Dahlen..............456
7. Robin Yount..............451


8. Luke Appling.............408
9. George Wright............373

10. Joe Cronin..............347
11. Ernie Banks.............326
12. Willie Wells............325
13. Home Run Johnson........313
14. Ozzie Smith.............303
15. Alan Trammell...........283

16. Pee Wee Reese...........243
17. Lou Boudreau............216
18. Jack Glasscock..........195
19. John Ward...............169

20. Hughie Jennings.........143
21. Dickey Pearce...........135
22. Bobby Wallace...........129

23. Dobie Moore.............109
24. Dick Lundy...............87
25. Joe Sewell...............77


1. Eddie Collins............ 515
2. Rogers Hornsby....... .501
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:22 AM (#2855482)
guh - ignore the two 2Bs at the bottom off a cut'n'paste...
   4. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:40 AM (#2855504)
Slight problem with the tiers. Ward's closer in points to Jennings than he is to Glasscock. Although I do realize that 20-22 is a pretty tight grouping.
   5. OCF Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:54 AM (#2855587)
I've got some small disagreements to work out with John on the totals. In the meantime, here's my first pass (probably buggy) at a best friends and worst enemies list for this election:

Wagner: unanimous
Lloyd: #2 (many), #12 (Rusty Priske)
Ripken: #2 (sunnyday2, Rusty Priske, Bob Allen, OCF, Esteban Rivera, Joe Dimino), #6 (bjhanke)
Vauhgan: #2 (Mark Donelson, Got Melky), #5 (sunnyday2, TomH, Devin McCullen)
Davis: #4 (Devin McCullen), #11 (Joe Dimino)
Dahlen: #5 (DL from MN, Mark Donelson)
Yount: #4 (Rusty Priske, TomH), #16 (Sean Gilman)
Appling: #5 (Dan R), #17 (sunnyday2)
Wright: 2 (bjhanke), #24 (Rusty Priske)
Cronin: #7 (mulder & scully, Bob Allen), #22 (Got Melky)
Banks: #7 (sunnyday2, bjhanke), #21 (John Murphy)
Wells: #7 (John Murphy), #22 (Mark Donelson, Bob Allen)
Johnson: #9 (ronw, Chris Cobb), #19 (bjhanke)
Smith: #9 (Dan R, Joe Dimino), #19 (bjhanke)
Trammell: #7 (Dan R), #21 (ronw)
Reese: #10 (Rafael Bellylard), #22 (Rick A)
Boudreau: #8 (whoisalhedges), #22 (sunnyday2)
Glasscock: #12 (Joe Dimino, John Murphy), #25 (whoisalhedges)
Ward: #9 (Rafael Bellylard), #23 (Got Melky, Dan R)
Jennings: #10 (Mark Donelson), #25 (DL from MN, TomH, Joe Dimino, Devin Mccullen)
Pearce: #11 (sunnyday2), #25 (andrew siegel, Dan R, Tiboreau)
Wallace: #16 (Bob Allen, Chris Cobb), #25 (sunnyday2, John Murphy)
Moore: #12 (sunnyday2), #25 (Rafael Bellylard, Sean Gilman, Chris Cobb)
Sewell: #18 (Bob Allen), #25 (Rick A, Got Melky)
Lundy: #16 (Joe Dimino), #25 (ronw, Howie Menckel, bjhanke, OCF, Esteban Rivera)
   6. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 05:54 AM (#2855611)
I reformatted what was up there around 12:30 a.m.. If any changes need to be made, just let me know.

I think I'm going to be WAY off on the consensus scores on this one.
   7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:10 PM (#2855702)
I reformatted what was up there around 12:30 a.m..


I just didn't have the time to fix that mess last night. Thanks, Joe!

Fortunately, I'll be able to use the ballot counter that Evan Reich created again for the next election.
   8. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:14 PM (#2855704)
I think I'm going to be WAY off on the consensus scores on this one.


My money is on Rusty claiming the Mr. Non-Unanimity Award based on his placement of Pop Lloyd.
   9. sunnyday2 Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:42 PM (#2855724)
As to tiers...

Tier 1

1. Wagner 600

-----

Tier 2

2. Lloyd 556
3. Ripken 546
4. Vaughan 537

Almost as easy as Tier 1. Not only are they tightly bunched on points. Aside from 1 #2 for G. Wright, these 3 got all of the votes for #2. And aside from 1 vote for Lloyd at #12, none of them placed below #6 on any ballot. Their norms also were 2-3-4.

-----

Tier 3

5. Davis 474
6. Dahlin 456
7. Yount 451

Still easy. All of their norms are 5 and 6, and all 3 placed as high as 4 or 5 which, again, nobody else besides those above and Appling (1X) and G. Wright did.

-----

Tier 4

8. Appling 408

Appling's range, 5-17, is more like Yount, but his norm(s) is/are 8-9-10 versus Yount at 5-6.

-----

Tier 5

9. G. Wright 373

Not only is a 35 point spread too much to consider a tier, Appling and G. Wright just have nothing in common. Appling is a fairly typical case. IOW his range of 5 to 17 and his norm(s) of 8-9-10 are reflective of his finish. G. Wright's range of 2-24 is totally unique. His norm is 7 and only Jennings departs from his norm by more than 2 places.

-----

Tier 6

10. Cronin 347
11. Banks 326
12. Wells 325

All of them range from 7 to 21 or 22.

-----

Tier 7

13. Johnson 313
14. Smith 303

Johnson and Smith both range from 9 to 19, though Johnson's norm is 11 and Ozzie's is/are 12 and 15.

-----

Tier 8

15. Trammell 283
16. Reese 243
17. Boudreau 216

This is a non-tier tier. (With Appling and G. Wright, I figured it's the top 10, it matters. Here, I'm just being less picky.). A big spread but their ranges and norms are a lot closer than their point totals would suggest. They're more like Tier 6 --Trammell's range is 7-21 (but his norm is 16). Reese's is 10-22 and Boudreau's 8-22, though the numbers didn't add up. Still, Reese's norm(s) is/are 13-14-15-18, Boudreau's is 17, right in Trammell's area. What this suggests to me is that if we had another 24 voters who saw things in the same range and saw the same norms, these guys could end up a lot closer. The spread might just be an artifact of a small sample. Who knows, maybe Trammell could even overcome Ozzie if Ozzie's norm was 15 rather than 12.

I could argue Trammell any one of three ways--Tier 7 with Ozzie, Tier 8 with Reese and Boudreau, or Tier 8 by himself and everybody below him drops down a tier. The likelihood is he's locked in at #16, yet he's the trickiest of them all in terms of what tier that represents. My compromise is to lump him in Tier 8 and call it a non-tier tier, a catch-all.

---

Tier 9

19. Ward 169

Wait a minute, where's #18? Ward is another anomaly, like G. Wright, in that his range is 9-23, and he is also tricky in the way Trammell is tricky. Bottom line: Everybody else from 18 and 20ff was ranked dead last on somebody's ballot.

-----

Tier 10

18. Glasscock 195 (range 12-25)
20. Jennings 143 (10-25)
21. Pearce 135 (11-25)
23. Moore 109 (12-25)

Here again, looking at a secondary number (high range in the top 12, fully 4 slots higher than anybody had Wallace or Sewell), one could argue to swap Moore and Wallace. IOW a different sampling of voters, even following the same pattern of range and norms, could get a different result on those 2. Everybody else (in these tiers) is probably locked in place.

-----

Tier 11

22. Wallace 129 (16-25)
24. Lundy 87 (18-25)
25. Sewell 77 (16-25)

What this says is that this ballot is complicated, structurally. The variables of time (timeline), place (NeLs) and Ward's pitching were especially hard to deal with. At other positions, the timeline effects are not as severe (even 1880s versus 1870s)--i.e. there's been nobody like G. Wright, and there's been nobody like Ward before either. The fact is that there've almost always been lot's of great athletes at SS, and so ranking guys like Boudreau and Ward and Wells and Trammell down around #20 seemed wrong, but somebody had to be there.
   10. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: July 14, 2008 at 01:57 PM (#2855732)
Interesting that Trammell topped Ozzie in 2002, and here we have it the other way around. They were nearly tied in both cases, however.
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:35 PM (#2855770)
They were nearly tied in both cases, however.


The poor man's Davis and Dahlen of the 1980's.
   12. OCF Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:40 PM (#2855779)
The consensus scores (and no, John, it wasn't Rusty):

OCF: 89
Devin McCullen: 89
andrew siegel: 87
Esteban Rivera: 87
Chris Cobb: 87
mulder & scully: 87
DL from MN: 86
Howie Menckel: 86
Tiboreau: 85
ronw: 85
TomH: 84
Dan R: 83
-- mean and median both 83 --
Sean Gilman: 83
bjhanke: 83
Rafael Bellylard: 81
Got Melky: 81
Bob Allen: 81
Rick A: 81
whoisalhedges: 81
John Murphy: 79
Joe Dimino: 78
Mark Donelson: 77
Rusty Priske: 74
sunnyday2: 71

Standard deviation of placement by candidates: Wagner was a zero, of course; the next lowest were Vaughn a 0.81 and Ripken a 1.01; Lloyd's 2.01 standard deviation was almost entirely due to Rusty. The single most disagreed about candidate was Wright at 5.30, followed by Jennings at 4.05. Most of the the candidates in the middle had standard deviations in the 3.2-3.8 range; Smith. (2.86) Reese (2.85), and Johnson (2.90) showed more agreement than that.
   13. sunnyday2 Posted: July 14, 2008 at 04:19 PM (#2855873)
Yeah, I was Banks' and Pearce's and Moore's best friend, and tied on Ripken thought that doesn't really count. Worst enemy of Vaughan, Appling, Boudreau and Wallace, though Wallace doesn't really count either. Everybody had somebody last.

Old timers know I'm a strong peak voter and a fanatic on "all eras."

Big surprise: I think I had G. Wright around #5 and I just got blown out of the water.

Wait'll ya see 3B. Or CF.
   14. Chris Cobb Posted: July 15, 2008 at 12:59 AM (#2856442)
I am surprised my consensus score was so high, given that I disagreed pretty seriously with the results at several positions. I guess the level of agreement on shortstops was much lower than it has been for C/1B/2B.
   15. bjhanke Posted: July 15, 2008 at 08:17 AM (#2856754)
OCF -

One quick, no big deal correction. You have the following:

Johnson: #9 (ronw, Chris Cobb), #19 (bjhanke)
Smith: #9 (Dan R, Joe Dimino), #19 (bjhanke)

You have me right about Johnson, but I voted Ozzie in at #10, which was the second highest. Someone apparently voted him #21. It wasn't me.

- Brock
   16. OCF Posted: July 15, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2857372)
Told you it was buggy. The actual low vote for Ozzie was #21 by Rick A.
   17. Rick A. Posted: July 16, 2008 at 12:55 AM (#2857979)
Interesting that Trammell topped Ozzie in 2002, and here we have it the other way around.

This has been happening all through the positional voting.

Terry beat Sisler when they were on the HOM ballot together, but Sisler beat Terry in the 1st base vote.
Doerr beat Gordon in the HOM ballot, but Gordon beat Doerr in the 2nd base vote.

Don't recall if this also happened in the catcher vote.
   18. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 22, 2008 at 07:13 PM (#2868135)
Which of these is not like the others:

Players with at least 500 in each league RBIs by league High Low sorted by best Low RBI total.

*RobinsonF.   1068 744
 McGriff         886 664
*Winfield       1207 626
 Burks           655 551
 Smith
Reggie   556 536
*WallaceBobby  607 514
 May
Lee        737 507
 Sheffield      1099 500


List came from a SABR-L email earlier today.
   19. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 22, 2008 at 07:19 PM (#2868140)
Bobby Wallace, playing in the deadball era had more RBI than Reggie Smith. He did have 1600 more AB, but the 'air' factor on B-R for his career was 84, vs. 96 for Smith. Interesting.
   20. Howie Menckel Posted: July 22, 2008 at 07:39 PM (#2868161)
Joe, can you translate that first line?
It reads like one of those 'thru the online translator' phrases...
   21. TomH Posted: July 22, 2008 at 08:04 PM (#2868190)
Players with at least 500 RBI in each league (AL + NL)

Sorting is in descending order, by the lower of the two league RBI counts accumulated

Table shows RBI in each league, greater # first.

Frank Robinson had 744 RBI in 2 different leagues - no one can say they had more RBI in 2 leagues than Frank.

That IS hard to say in one sentence, ain't it? Maybe if I weren't an engineer it would be eaiser....
   22. caspian88 Posted: August 03, 2008 at 10:35 PM (#2888804)
Just out of curiosity, anyone care to share where they'd place any active shortstops, like Alex Rodriguez or Derek Jeter (assuming they'd make this list)?
   23. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: August 04, 2008 at 12:55 AM (#2888896)
My post including all modern SS is on the ballot discussion thread. ARod is of course #2 after Wagner. The surprise is Larkin, who is just ungodly high.
   24. OCF Posted: August 04, 2008 at 01:07 AM (#2888909)
This is the ballot thread. Only Dan R. and andrew siegel placed the active players, with both of them putting Rodriguez #2, Larkin firmly in the top 10, and Jeter somewhere in the teens. DL from MN didn't rank ARod or Jeter but did rank the retired but not yet eligible Larkin, and also had him in the top 10. That's only 3 of our voters, but I don't see any reason to imagine that they were particularly unusual. I would assume that ARod would be a fairly easy #2 already, with no chance of ever catching up to Wagner no matter how long he plays, and Larkin as a top-10 candidate and Jeter easily in the HoM seem reasonably solid choices as well.

The three points that would come up with each of these three candidates:

Rodriguez: is it still true that the majority of his value is at SS, or should he move to the 3B list? I said that he can't catch Wagner no matter how long he plays, but if he plays till he's 43 and hits 850 HR, while staying at 3B, then he'd have a chance of knocking Schmidt off the top of that list.

Larkin: How much do you deduct for his lack of durability, especially in-season durability?

Jeter: His defense will surely be discussed.
   25. Chris Cobb Posted: August 04, 2008 at 02:11 AM (#2888954)
I haven't worked up A-Rod or Jeter, but #2 and bottom third of HoM shorstops seem right.

I have worked up Larkin. I would have him at #12, if A-Rod is also included. My eligible top 10 matches the overall results (though not in the precise order), except that Grant Johnson ranks higher. #12 puts Larkin immediately behind Robin Yount, Grant Johnson, and George Wright, immediately ahead of Willie Wells, Alan Trammell, and Joe Cronin.
   26. OCF Posted: August 04, 2008 at 07:31 AM (#2889175)
And Vizquel, like Aparicio before him, is presumably not in the HoM at all.
   27. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 04, 2008 at 11:36 AM (#2889220)
I don't see ARod ever moving off the SS list. His peak was at SS and he has significant value there. I'd be shocked if his overall value as a 3B caught up.

Kind of like Andre Dawson, who played a few more games in RF, but is clearly a CF in my mind, as that's where his best seasons were, as well as 62% of his career value (according to DanR's system).
   28. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 04, 2008 at 11:46 AM (#2889222)
ARod had 1.13 PA as a SS. Through 2005, he had only .25 PA as a 3B. If he gets that high at 3B, he's going to have passed everyone but Ruth, Bonds, Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Mays and Williams (if you give war credit) on the all-time player list; the 1.13 would be good for about 16th at SS all by itself.

I would say this year he finally passed Ripken into second on the all-time SS list, I had them about tied going into this season.

I had Lou Boudreau 22nd on the SS ballot, Ernie Banks 19th, with Dickey Pearce and John Ward between them. I'd probably have Jeter somewhere in that mix. I doubt I'd have him past Bobby Wallace yet.

He is slowing down this year too, he's having his worst year in the majors, a little worse than 1996-1997 right now. Who knows how much he's got left in the tank, he's 34 already.

I would probably put Larkin somewhere between 5th and 7th (6th and 8th counting ARod), which is below Arky Vaughan, but in the ballpark with Yount and Appling.
   29. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 04, 2008 at 11:57 AM (#2889225)
Regarding Vizquel, I get him somewhere in the ballpark with Donnie Bush, Roger Peckinpaugh and Maury Wills.

Nomar is a bit higher, as is Jay Bell. Tony Fernandez is much higher.

Non-HoMer SS ahead of Vizquel would include:

Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Derek Jeter
Phil Rizzuto
Bert Campaneris
Dave Concepcion
Dave Bancroft
Luis Aparicio
Toby Harrah (SS/3B pretty much 50/50)
Jim Fregosi
Tony Fernandez
Rabbit Maranville
Vern Stephens
Dick Bartell
Art Fletcher
Nomar Garciaparra
Joe Tinker
Jay Bell
Rico Petrocelli
Donnie Bush

I'd put Vizquel here, followed by

Maury Wills
Roger Peckinpaugh
Chris Speier
Leo Cardenas
Dick Groat
Travis Jackson
Garry Templeton
Rick Burleson

I could have easily missed someone, but that list is basically in order. I think Rizzuto and Campaneris are arguably the best position players eligible that aren't in the Hall of Merit. Definitely in the top 10.
   30. Paul Wendt Posted: August 04, 2008 at 12:09 PM (#2889232)
26. OCF Posted: August 04, 2008 at 03:31 AM (#2889175)
And Vizquel, like Aparicio before him, is presumably not in the HoM at all.

and Concepcion :-)

Johan Santana will be the first Venezuelan native in the Hall of Merit.
maybe

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