Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, July 20, 2004

George Shively

Two MVPs and 7 all-star selections. Why didn’t he get one virtual Hall of Fame vote? Discuss.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 20, 2004 at 09:13 AM | 10 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. jhwinfrey Posted: July 20, 2004 at 05:29 PM (#743811)
For now, I'm tying him to Jimmy Lyons. I don't see much to distinguish between the two, although Shively may have been better.
   2. Chris Cobb Posted: July 20, 2004 at 10:05 PM (#745007)
I would agree that they are pretty close. Shively has the better documented statistics; Lyons has the better reputation. I tend to prefer numbers when I can get them, so I have Shively ahead. I think he will rank behind the Burns/Hooper/Veach trio, but I haven't done a year-by-year career reconstruction yet.
   3. Jeff M Posted: July 21, 2004 at 03:10 AM (#745647)
For those interested in such things...

Using the I9 numbers with average rates of RBI (based on RBI per Hit) and Runs (based on Runs per PA) for hitters in the NL and AL between 1914 and 1924, here are the Bill James Sim Scores for Shively, with the positional adjustment:

WOLF, CHICKEN (893)
WALKER, CURT (892)
STAHL, CHICK (888)
JOHNSON, LANCE (887)
REYNOLDS, CARL (882)
STRUNK, AMOS (877)
COOLEY, DUFF (876)
YOUNGS, ROSS* (870)
MANN, LES (869)
FINNEY, LOU (869)
   4. Jeff M Posted: July 21, 2004 at 03:12 AM (#745649)
Here are Shively’s batting WS using the old TangoTiger formula to convert Linear Weights to Win Shares for batting. The formula is:

Batting WS = ((LWTS Runs/10) + (Outs/100))*3

As David Foss pointed out, you may want to use something other than 10 as the divisor, but I've left it at 10 b/c that's what I used for Hill before David posted his comment -- you can apply your own discount, as I do. If you have another factor you'd like to use, let me know and I can plug that in pretty quickly. The Tango formula is a rough measure, of course, and it seems to come out mostly on the high side.

So here are Shively’s batting WS using (1) TangoTiger's converter, (2) the Integrated 9s MLEs and (3) Pete Palmer's LWTS. They are raw (no adjustments for season-length, park factors, league quality, uncertainty of data, etc.):

1914.....13.9
1915.....20.0
1916.....19.6
1917.....16.6
1918.....14.2
1919.....8.0
1920.....9.4
1921.....16.2
1922.....7.8
1923.....8.3
1924.....4.8
Total....137.8

Note that Riley says his career began in 1910, but the I9s use 1914 as the starting point because it looks like his pre-1914 play was not considered “major league.”

For defense: based on the Integrated 9s MLEs, Shively had 5,556 plate appearances. Assuming approximately 4.1 PAs per game, that gives Shively about 1,355 games played. Riley lists him simply as “of” and says he was “a solid defensive outfielder.” Based on that, I assumed about a B or B- under the WS system, and based on the averages for outfielders on page 622 of the WS book (average = 2.95/1000 innings), I gave him 3.15. That’s similar to a guy like Daryl Hamilton defensively. At about 8.75 innings per game played, he would have approximately 11,857 innings in the outfield.

So if you were to give Shively 3.15 WS/1000, you'd get another 37.3 fielding WS to add to his hitting totals, which would put him at about 175.1 WS for career.

All caveats apply. Make adjustments as appropriate for your systems. Or ignore them altogether.
   5. Chris Cobb Posted: July 21, 2004 at 04:07 AM (#745717)
Note that Riley says his career began in 1910, but the I9s use 1914 as the starting point because it looks like his pre-1914 play was not considered “major league.”

For what it's worth, Holway treats his team -- the West Baden Sprudels, under the management of C. I. Taylor -- as "major league."

i9s is also not entirely consistent in their designation of the Sprudels. Ben Taylor is listed as playing for them in 1910 and gets "major league credit." He split time between them and other teams in 1911-1913, as did his brother Candy Jim.

Holway doesn't list Shively on the team in 1910, and he has no data for him for 1911, but he gives data for him in 1912-13, so I think he ought to be given MLE credit for those two seasons.

For defense: . . . Riley lists him simply as “of” and says he was “a solid defensive outfielder.” Based on that, I assumed about a B or B- under the WS system, and based on the averages for outfielders on page 622 of the WS book (average = 2.95/1000 innings), I gave him 3.15.

This seems reasonable to me. Holway's rosters indicate that Shively was typically a left fielder. He was very fast, and Riley indicates that he had very good range but says nothing about his arm, so it seems like a slightly above average rating is quite appropriate.

With two more decent seasons at the beginning of his career, I'd put him at about 200-205 cws, prior to modifications.
   6. KJOK Posted: July 22, 2004 at 01:35 AM (#747859)
Shively's MLE's have been posted to the HOM egroup. Very similar to Jimmie Lyons' MLE's, but just a tad better...
   7. Gary A Posted: December 18, 2004 at 08:31 PM (#1029328)
1921 George Shively
NNL associate Bacharach Giants

G-42 (team 52)
AB-166
H-48
D-3
T-1
HR-1
R-41
W-19
HP-3
SH-6
SB-7
AVE-.289 (NeL .263)
OBA-.372 (NeL .324)
SLG-.337 (NeL .361)

I also think Shively is underrated, based on some research I've done on the 1910s. He was a good OBP guy, walking a fair amount for a Negro Leaguer.
   8. KJOK Posted: February 23, 2005 at 12:35 AM (#1160264)
1916 Indiannapolis ABC's:

G-44 (Team-46)
AB-163 (Team-151)
H-61 (Lead team, Team Ave-44)
2B-9 (Lead team, Team Ave-4)
3B-3 (Tm-3)
HR-0 (Tm-0)
Sac-17 (Tm-11)
Ave-.374 (Tm-.291)
Slg-.466 (Tm-.373)

Per:
Paul Debono
McFarland Publishing Inc.
THE INDIANAPOLIS ABCS HISTORY OF A PREMIER TEAM IN THE NEGRO LEAGUES

We may be missing the boat on Shively - he was the star hitter for the 1916 ABC's.
   9. KJOK Posted: September 17, 2011 at 07:34 AM (#3927876)
   10. KJOK Posted: September 17, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3928199)
CORRECTED LINK:

George Shively's Real Stats

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
The Piehole of David Wells
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.1934 seconds
43 querie(s) executed