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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Wednesday, July 27, 2005
Hall of Fame’s 2006 Negro League Election
This is phenomenal news, especially this:
Written recommendations for inclusion on the ballots from fans, and historians not a part of the committees, will be accepted through the month of October. Recommendations can be sent by e-mail to info@baseballhalloffame.org, or can be submitted by mail to: Committee on African-American Baseball, 25 Main Street, Cooperstown, NY 13326. A letter or e-mail of receipt will acknowledge all proposals. All proposals will be made available to the Screening Committee and a final set will be kept for archival purposes.
A few of the committee members will be at the SABR Convention. I think it’s very obvious that we should submit something from our group of Negro League experts, recommending our electees to them. At the convention I will make a point of explaining the Hall of Merit to any of them that will listen, so they understand the context in which these players were elected - not just against each other, but also considered against white players of their eras as well.
Thanks to Chris J. for pointing this out!
Joe Dimino
Posted: July 27, 2005 at 10:51 AM | 488 comment(s)
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Sure did, Chris.
I'd suggest also pointing out the most important posts by post# as well. IIRC that Beckwith thread was vey long, and if there's some specific things that should be brought to their attention, we should makeit easier for them.
I'll see what I can do about that.
I have referenced 21 posts in the letter in regard to Beckwith that the committee may choose to peruse using his thread's link.
Other eligible candidates for the Hall of Fame that have received votes from our electorate in 1962 are (in order of their ranking among the 75 candidates): Biz Mackey (8 – comparisons to the many quality major league backstops of his time haven’t helped him too much, though his long career of distinction keeps him consistently in the top-ten almost every election), Cannonball Dick Redding (17 – an impressive hurler, he has to compete with other pitchers with similar credentials), Willard Brown (18 – long career of quality, but the electorate as a whole has questions about his peak), Dobie Moore (20 – the consensus opinion is high on his outstanding peak, but his short career has hurt him), José Méndez (21 – another fine peak, but a little short on career), Alejandro Oms (25 – similar to Brown’s situation), Quincey Trouppe (35), Bill Monroe (43 – lack of documentation and questions about the quality of his competition have damaged his candidacy somewhat), Luke Easter (47 – appears to have been a stellar player, but too much guess work filling in the gaps of his missing or undocumented career), Ben Taylor (56 – too many non-HoM similar players from his era have dragged him down), Leroy Matlock (59), and Bus Clarkson (72). As a group the Hall of Merit does not, at this time, recommend any of these players for induction, but we may see a couple of them elected in years to come.
1) If anyone has something to add for the players that I didn't mention anything for, feel free to post something here and maybe I'll include it.
2) Since I'm in the process of moving and have little time, some here may feel that my mini-notes for the above players may need to be altered.
3) Whatever additions you submit, please try to keep them short, sweet, and unbiased.
Thanks!
The last sentence should be made into another paragraph, Mark. Beyond that, it should be fine (it looks good on Word).
For the first guy (Mackey) say something like (8th in voting in last election) so it's clearer. After that can just go 17th, 18th, 20th, 21st, etc and they can figure it out. Probably can anyway, but it's a minor tweak and it's a tad clearer.
Works for me, Chris.
Joe and I want to say thank you for all of the help that you gave us in creating this document. Hopefully, our collective expertise and credibility will give it the added push that will propel Santop, Torriente, Brown, and the other worthies into the HOF.
Second, regarding Mackey. We are most definitely going to elect him at some point here right? I've been thinking hard about this . . .
I'd hate to see the fact that we don't endorse him be simply a question of timing (us being 'late' since we're only caught up to 1963 right now), and call our credibility into question.
What would you guys think of saying something along the lines of, "Mackey has not been elected yet, but we believe he will eventually be endorsed by our group. While we support the election of the others before Mackey, we would also tenatively endorse his selection as of this time."
That might not be the best way to say it, but do you at least see what I'm getting at?
Just a thought . . . sorry I was away all weekend . . .
The two questions that are most pressing and most vague in the Hall's announcement are (in order of importance):
1) How many players can/will be elected?
2) How long will the committee stand?
So I agree with Chris J. that I would like to know what number is the realistic upper bound for this committee's selections.
How about changing it to something like this:
Other eligible Negro League candidates for the Hall of Fame that have received votes from our electorate in 1962 are (in order of their ranking among the 75 total candidates to receive points): Biz Mackey (8th ranked in our last election – <strike>comparisons to the many quality major league backstops of his time haven’t helped him too much, though his long career of distinction</strike> in our opinion he only had 3 seasons that were great, and he wasn't the same player after 1931 - he was a very good player for 12 years, which keeps him consistently in the top-ten almost every election, but we believe the others we've elected are more deserving of the honor) . . .
What do you guys think? I just think it's a much more specific reason for our current rejection.
Other eligible Negro League candidates for the Hall of Fame that have received votes from our electorate in 1962 are (in order of their ranking among the 75 total candidates to receive points): Biz Mackey (8th ranked in our last election – <strike>comparisons to the many quality major league backstops of his time haven’t helped him too much, though his long career of distinction</strike> in our opinion, he only had 3 seasons that were great, and he wasn't the same player after 1931 - he was a very good player for 12 years, which keeps him consistently in the top-ten almost every election, but we believe the others we've elected are more deserving of the honor) . . .
how's that?
Other eligible Negro League candidates for the Hall of Fame that have received votes from our electorate in 1962 are (in order of their ranking among the 75 total candidates to receive points): Biz Mackey (8th ranked in our last election – in our opinion, he only had 3 seasons that were great, and he wasn’t the same player after 1931 – he was a very good player for 12 years, at a demanding position, which keeps him consistently in the top-ten almost every election – however, we believe the others we’ve elected are more deserving of the honor than Mackey),
Dear Hall of Fame Negro League Screening and Voting Committee Members,
We have attached a Word file that contains our recommendations and the reasoning behind our choices for the 2006 election of former Negro League players.
We hope this information will help you in regard to the electoral process and look forward to the results of your effort.
Sincerely,
The Baseball Hall of Merit
Joe Dimino - Commissioner and Founder
John Murphy - Project Coordinator
It blows me away that we may, in some small way, actually impact who gets elected to the Hall of Fame. This project has gone beyond my wildest expectations, I can't thank you all enough.
Now I need to get cranking on my ballot!
--Joe
This strikes me as an unfair comparison, since I doubt very many Negro Leaguers have received the publicity that Cool Papa Bell has received. Mackey is basically an unknown. We just know him because we have discussed him so much.
As for Mackey, I think we need to add something like, we think these others are more qualified and should go in before Mackey, with a brief summation of Mackey in our eyes - both positive and negative
I think it is a mistake to say anything negative about any candidate. If we are worried about being too positive, I would advocate Marc's approach in #279, which I believe is basically neutral but shows them that we haven't overlooked someone they will be interested in.
Not that we have any entitlement to an explanation, but wha???? Did you decide to make the information proprietary?
What became of the quest for SuperRSI?
I would e-mail you these questions Chris J, but I never learned your last name. :)
It's Jaffe, Jeff.
If webspace or cost is an issue, you are welcome to house it on MostlyBaseball.com. I haven't updated the site inawhile, I'd certainly give you the keys if you want.
Jeff, I don't think what I said was negative about Mackey - but if we are 'rejecting' him, I think we should give an explanation as to why considering he's one of their top candidates.
Yeah, I'd like to reiterate why no RSI??????
If webspace or cost is an issue, you are welcome to house it on MostlyBaseball.com. I haven't updated the site inawhile, I'd certainly give you the keys if you want.
Nothing like that. . . . I've always told my dissertation advisor that there's two things one needs to do when working on a dissertaion: 1) things for the dissertation, and 2) things that keep you sane. RSI-type stuff has always been in the latter category.
Normally, I've always been pretty good about time management - not spending too much time on it, and keeping my priorities good. In recent months my time management skills starting going in the crapper.
Now the sensible approach would of course be to just leave it alone and stop working on it. I'd gone months at a stretch before with nothing done. So that was the initial plan, but then I had a new thought - if I did delete it, that act would spur me on to work that much harder on what I need to get done. This spur wouldn't be just time but more importantly psychological. I'd be so irked off at letting all that work (and yea, there was tons of it) go to nothing, that I'd feel the only way to justify doing that was to be to make sure I didn't do it for no reason. In other words, "If I'm going to delete it, it may as well turn out I did it for a reason so let's get cracking so it'll seem like some kind of worthwhile sacrifice rather than a capricious spur of the moment act." Two minutes after having this thought, the website no longer existed.
And that's been what happened. I deleted it on September 21 (and changed my poster name here 5 minutes later) & got a lot more work done in the last 5-6 weeks than I did in the prior few months. Despite being very proud of the site, and happy with a lot of the infor on it, I stand by my decision and don't regret it one bit.
SuperRSI? Takes too much work.
But is there anyway we can have access to the data in a way that won't let you update it or want to work on it? It was extremely helpful to many of us. Is it 'gone' gone, as in deleted and unarchived, etc. and would have to be recreated? Or is there a backup somewhere that maybe we could at least post the results on the KDBL files site in a spreadsheet or something?
Please tell me you backed up all of that hard work somewhere, it'd be terrible to see it gone forever . . .
Dear Joe and John:
Thank you for your recent e-mail message containing suggestions of candidates for consideration from the Negro leagues and/or pre-Negro leagues, for election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 2006. We will be sure your insightful suggestions are made available to the screening committee, which will construct ballots later this month.
In July, the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum’s Board of Directors approved holding a special election of Negro leagues and pre-Negro leagues candidates to the Hall of Fame in 2006. The announcement comes on the heels of the completion of a landmark study on the history of African Americans in Baseball, from 1860-1960. Based on the results of that important study, the Board of Directors felt it was the right time to hold a special election.
The Board also appointed screening and voting committees. Under the guidelines established, a Screening Committee will construct ballots and a Voting Committee will meet to vote on the ballots. Former Major League Baseball Commissioner Fay Vincent will serve as the non-voting chairman of both committees. Frank Robinson, a Hall of Famer and Board member, has been asked to offer his advice and assistance to Vincent and both committees. Any candidates elected by the Voting Committee in February 2006 would be inducted in Cooperstown during Hall of Fame Weekend in July 2006.
The five-member Screening Committee appointed by the Board of Directors will meet in November to develop two ballots: One ballot of Negro leagues players, managers, umpires, executives; and one ballot of candidates who preceded the formation of Negro leagues. The Screening Committee will use the statistics and narrative from the landmark study to determine the ballots. The Screening Committee members include Adrian Burgos, Dick Clark, Larry Hogan, Larry Lester and Jim Overmyer, each of whom contributed to the reports and have a deep knowledge of the subject matter. Complete biographies of the five committee members can be found at www.baseballhalloffame.org
A 12-member Voting Committee, inclusive of the Screening Committee, appointed by the Board of Directors, will meet in February 2006 to review the final ballots of candidates. After open discussions over two days, committee members will cast paper ballots and vote “yes” or “no” for each candidate. Any candidate with “yes” votes on at least 75% of ballots cast will earn election to the Hall of Fame. The twelve voting committee members, all historians and deeply knowledgeable, include Todd Bolton, Greg Bond, Adrian Burgos, Dick Clark, Leslie Heaphy, Larry Hogan, Neil Lanctot,Larry Lester, Sammy Miller, Jim Overmyer and Robert Peterson.
In July 2000, the Baseball Hall of Fame was granted $250,000 from Major League Baseball in order to initiate a comprehensive study on the history of African Americans in Baseball, from 1860-1960. The funds were to allow the Museum to expand the scope and depth of its knowledge and historical collection on this aspect of Baseball and American culture.
In February 2001, the Board selected “The Negro Leagues Researchers/Authors Group” research team, led by Dr. Hogan of Union County College (NJ), Dick Clark, and Larry Lester, to conduct the comprehensive study. The three historians led a diverse group of more than 50 other authors, researcher and historians in this first-of-its-kind academic study.
The research resulted in a raw narrative and bibliography of nearly 800 pages and a statistical database, which includes 3,000 day-by-day records, league leaders and all-time leaders. The research was culled from box scores from 128 newspapers of sanctioned league games played from 1920-54.
With the research now complete, the study includes sanctioned league game box scores from almost 100% of games played in the 1920s, in excess of 90% of the box scores from games played in the 1930s and box scores from 50-70% of games played in the 1940s and 50s, during which time the various leagues began to disband and newspapers ceased to report game information. The end result is the most comprehensive compilation of statistics on the Negro leagues that have ever been accumulated.
The best way to stay informed about the Hall of Fame and all the happenings in Cooperstown is to subscribe to INSIDE PITCH, the official e-mail newsletter of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. IT'S FREE and shows up in your e-mail box at the beginning of each week. You'll also receive timely news items direct from Cooperstown - where we preserve history, honor excellence and connect generations every day. Follow this link to sign up for INSIDE PITCH. http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/inside_pitch/index.htm.
Yours in Baseball,
The Hall of Fame
Experience http://www.baseballhalloffame.org today , your online home for everything Cooperstown:
* Participate in our Hall of Fame Fantasy Camp;
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I'd be more excited if it was going to be released in database format for free, but apparently it will be in book form as an encyclopedia, probably with some significant cost....
Even with the stats, we'll need to calc park factors. And adjust for unbalanced schedules, etc..
Negro Leaguers:
• Allen, Newt
• Beckwith, John
• Bell, William
• Brewer, Chet
• Brown, Ray
• Brown, Willard
• Byrd, Bill
• Cooper, Andy
• Dixon, Rap
• Donaldson, John
• Hughes, Sammy
• Jenkins, Fats
• Lundy, Dick
• Mackey, Biz
• Manley, Effa
• Marcell, Oliver
• Minoso, Minnie
• Moore, Dobie
• Oms, Alejandro
• O'Neil, Buck
• Parnell, Red
• Pompez, Alex
• Posey, Cum
• Scales, George
• Suttles, Mule
• Taylor, Candy Jim
• Taylor, C.I.
• Torriente, Cristobal
• Wilkinson, JL
• Wilson, Jud
Pre-Negro Leaguers:
• Grant, Frank
• Hill, Pete
• Johnson, Home Run
• Mendez, Jose
• Poles, Spot
• Redding, Dick
• Santop, Louis
• Taylor, Ben
• White, Sol
Their evaulations and ours seem mutually reinforcing. Their ballot contains all of our non-HoF electees and just about all the NeL players who have received serious support without being elected.
Off the top of my head, the only player whom we have supported somewhat who doesn't have a ballot spot is Bill Monroe. They ahve a few players on the ballot we haven't supported, too, like Hughes, Marcell, and O'Neil, but they are all players who might appear if one dipped into the next tier of talent.
The manger/execs -- Effa Manley, Alex Pompez, Cum Posey, C. I. Taylor, Candy Jim Taylor, J. L. Wilkinson, and Sol White -- also make a good list. I don't think I'd support all of them for induction, but I don't know that they missed anybody who should get serious consideration, except perhaps the Elite Giants owner -- can't remember his name off the top of my head -- and there may be good reasons why he shouldn't be considered, or Gus Greenlee, and there are certainly good reasons why he shouldn't be considered.
Kudos to the ballot committee, and I look forward to seeing the results of the elections. With this ballot, the electorate has a very good chance of making very good selections!
But it's quibbling of course. This is a good list.
Hey, maybe the HOM should do a mirror vote in late January before they announce the results. A straight-up yes/no vote for comparison's sake.
Good catches!
I'm reminded by the mention of Bus Clarkson on the ballot thread that I'd've rather seen him on the ballot than Marcell and Hughes. It does look like players who spent considerable time in Mexico may have had a little harder time getting onto the ballot. Chet Brewer is the only American player who spent more than a season or two playing summer ball in Latin America who has made the ballot.
Sol White, Bill Monroe, Bill Monroe, Sol White? What little we know about the two suggest that they're pretty interchangable and, frankly, pretty interchangable with Frank Grant, too. Grant has his pioneering status in his favor as a tie-breaker, but that's all it is to me, a tie-breaker. Monroe is an oversight.
And maybe Nip Winters whom I've always had coupled with Andy Cooper in my mind.
So now we're looking at November, 2006 to May, 2007 as the earliest the data will be published, which probably means Summer of 2007.....
BTW, why is Minnio Minoso on the list? His career was definitely more ML than NeL. Bill Monroe, Gus Greenlee, Nip Winters, or someone else would have been a much better pick than Orestes.
Except for Trouppe, of course.
It's always possible that they do know something that we don't, karlmagnus. Since we are not close to electing him in the near future, that may be a good thing.
BTW, does anynone think that Effa Manley is overrated?
I would think it should say something to the electorate about Trouppe, but since Negro League players voting support is still based more on feeling and individual perception than fact, I doubt you will see much change in the voting. The MLEs may help shape thinking, but I believe it is still a very visceral decision.
And Murphy, I agree with you about Manley, she is the only owner that got compensation for the players she lost to MLB, but that is a paper thin arguement.
Then again, I don't really know of any non-league founder type owner I'd endorse for the Hall of Fame.
Ted Radcliffe
Bruce Petway
Quincy Trouppe
Luke Easter
Bill Monroe
Nip Winters
Pedro Cepeda
Silvio Garcia
LIST OF PLAYERS SURPRISING INCLUDED:
William Bell
Rap Dixon
Fats Jenkins
Red Parnell
Candy Jim Taylor
Maybe we need MLE's for Parnell to take a closer look?
That's my feeling about her, too, Mike. I don't see her resume surpassing Wilkinson, Greenlee, or even her husband Abe, but I still might be missing something.
Ted Radcliffe
That's a very interesting omission, don't you think? His recent death and his age record would have given him a spot in an earlier time, so that says something positive about the committee, IMO.
Yes. Even more interesting is Red Parnell being included, as he doesn't really have much of a reputation, which makes me think he's the prime beneficiary of the "newly discovered" statistics....
Makes sense, Kevin.
Perucho Cepeda never played in the Negro Leagues, so I'm guessing that would put a significant damper on his inclusion on the ballot. Silvio Garcia also suffers from not having all that much of his best play coming in the Negro Leagues.
Given those omissions, I'm a bit surprised that Mendez made the list, because very little of his top-flight play was in the States, but I don't suppose we should expect perfect consistency. I'm also very pleasantly surpised by Oms' inclusion, because I think his case depends pretty heavily on his play in Cuba.
It would be interesting to know what non-U.S. stats the ballot committee and the electing committee will be looking at.
On the execs list:
I agree that Effa Manley is an odd choice, but she was surely a colorful personality, which helps. If she did happen to be elected, would she be the first woman in the Hall of Fame? I think so.
Then again, I don't really know of any non-league founder type owner I'd endorse for the Hall of Fame.
I see more of an argument for the top Negro-League owners, actually, because they had such a huge impact on all aspects of developing the team. Cum Posey and J. L. Wilkinson seem to me like obvious choices: the Grays and the Monarchs were the class of Negro-League baseball for a quarter-century. Wilkinson also has his pre-Monarchs, integrated "All Nations" team to his credit, as well as the introduction of electric lights for night baseball. C. I. Taylor, like Rube Foster (and Posey in the early years, at least) was an owner/manager/league founder, whom I would also strongly support. Sol White has the cumulative player/manager/general manager/author credentials that make him another good choice.
Pompez I know a bit less about; he was an influential empresario, but I don't know that he was in the same league as Posey and Wilkinson in gathering and retaining great players.
Not that it's of great moment, but Tom Wilson was the owner of the Elite Giants whose name I couldn't remember this afternoon. He ran the team for about 25 years, from 1921 to 1946. He certainly wasn't as distinguished as Posey or Wilkinson, but he kept the team going right through the Depression and a bunch of moves in the 1930s, he built some strong teams, and he served both the Negro Southern League and the Negro National League in a variety of ways. Probably not a HoFer, but an owner of considerable merit who seems very little remembered.
You're right, Chris.
Maybe it's as simple as no one bothered to nominate him. This <a href="http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&c>page</a> includes a list of 93 candidates from which the 39 final candidates were selected, and Trouppe's name doesn't appear on the longer list.
He did tour the U.S. around 1908/1909, going (supposedly) 44-2, and I've seen some sporadic reports of Mendez in the U.S. for a few years afterwards. He was definitely playing for All-Nations by 1916, but as an infielder. More importantly, he did enjoy a more significant renaissance as a pitcher for the Monarchs in the early 1920s than seems to be generally recognized. Also, for the HOF, his almost always overlooked managerial career in the U.S. comes into play: short but brilliant, including three pennants and a victory in the first black World Series.
Maybe somebody can read between the lines and handicap these guys based on the bios that are now posted at the HoF Web site.
Quincy Trouppe
Luke Easter
Edgar Wesley
Tank Carr
Dick Seay
Dink Mothel
Silvio Garcia
Pedro Cepeda
Pelayo Chacon
Bus Clarkson
Hank Thompson
Valentin Dreke
Clint Thomas
Jimmy Crutchfield
Ted Strong
Dizzy Dismukes
Rats Henderson
Ted Trent
Webster McDonald
Leroy Matlock
Don Newcombe
Sol White, Bill Monroe, Bill Monroe, Sol White? What little we know about the two suggest that they're pretty interchangable and, frankly, pretty interchangable with Frank Grant, too. Grant has his pioneering status in his favor as a tie-breaker, but that's all it is to me, a tie-breaker. Monroe is an oversight.
Grant has some pioneering status, although there was Fowler, it depends how much pure pioneering is crucial.
White has strong credentials in his team managing and his history book, although it would be a stretch to group him with Henry Chadwick in the writers alcove.
FWIW, I sent the following to the 19cBB egroup a few minutes ago. I talked to Dick Clark standing in the central room at Wayne Gretzky's, just before stepping up to the back room where Joe Dimino introduced me to John Murphy and Mark Donelson and anyone I have forgotten.
Paul Wendt, owner, 19cBB
<hr>
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:33:22 -0500
From: Paul Wendt
To: 19c Base Ball <19cBB@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [19cBB] pre-Negro Leagues candidates for the Hall of Fame
27 Oct 2005, Paul Wendt wrote:
>>
Monday is the deadline for written recommendations to the Screening Committee. Candidates may be considered "as players" or more broadly; the cmte is not restricted in that respect.
<<
The Screening Committee has reported.
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2005/051121b.htm
The three 19th century nominees who survived screening are those I expected, benefiting from a brief exchange with Dick Clark in Toronto. I asked whether they would consider whole careers or playing careers only, which might determine whether Sol White is a strong candidate. He said whole careers and observed that Frank Grant and Grant Johnson are strong candidates, too. (Three or four [19th century screenees], as the recognized career of Pete Hill is 1899-1926.)
From the SABR Negro Leagues Committee Bulletin, Sammy Miller editor:
While statistics wise, everything is ready for the upcoming Hall of Fame election of Negro League players, there is still some work that needs to be done, and so here is a chance for you to be involved in this landmark process.
Of the 39 players that appear on both ballots, there are seven for whom we have no information regarding their burial sites. Now at first this may seem like a daunting task, but it is not as hard as it may first sound. We have information as to where all nine of these players died, only the name of the cemetery is missing.
In addition, in accordance with the old saying of not asking others to do what you would not, I have already taken on the task of locating the resting place of Newt Allen, famed second baseman of the Kansas City Monarchs. Just for the record, I did not take Newt Allen because he was the easiest. He died in Cincinnati, Ohio and so I will be able to burn up the phone lines looking for him and once found be able to make a trip to the cemetery.
The other six players who we need information on and where they died are:
John Beckwith, who died in New York, New York, January 5, 1956.
J. Preston (Pete) Hill, who died in Buffalo, New York, November 26, 1951.
Grant Johnson, who died in Buffalo, New York, September 4, 1963.
Dick Lundy, who died in Jacksonville, Florida, January 5, 1962.
Walter “Dobie” Moore, who died in Rome, Georgia, in April of 1963.
Roy Parnell, who died in Terrell, Texas, in June of 1969.
Finally, please do not refrain from helping out because you think that one or all of these candidates probably won’t be elected and so my work will be wasted. I can say with complete honesty that each and everyone of these players are strong candidates that have a very good shot of being elected.
Any information you may uncover should be sent to Dick Clark at tstearnes@aol.com or 1080 Hull, Ypsilanti, MI 48198-6472
"Rob Neyer says there's a very good chance that a lot of Negro League players will get elected to the Hall of Fame in 2006."
I wish I lived in one of those areas, sounds like something fun to try to research.
Here's the deal.
The committee has been charged with one vote, one election, and then disband. So of course they're gonna elect every NeLer who they think should ever be in the HoF. If I was on the committee I'd be thinking the same way.
But earlier somewhere on this very thread Neyer responded to my post to this effect, saying that since this is bringing a lot of publicity to Cooperstown, the HoF will want to do this again.
Well, dammit, they should say so. Is this a one shot or not? I really don't care which it is, but it should be clear before the vote is cast.
If it's once and done, then the committee must be forgiven for erring on the side of inclusion.
If there's gonna be more chances for this, they should err on the side of caution.
And if they don't know? Well, then they'll elect 15 guys, who will go down in history as having been enshrined in another mass induction. They'll be part of a big class and they will always be downgraded or underrated as part of "the 15" and the actual names and life stories of each of "the 15" as individuals will get lost in the stampede.
And then if there's another vote someday, people will roll their eyes and say, not again. They already got everybody that was worth a damn and some who weren't.
This is what I am afraid is going to happen. The whole group will be tainted in perpetuity. The HoF should--MUST--announce now that there will be more elections by the NeL committee in the future. Don't care when, don't care how, but more chances, so that this committee can elect 3-4-5 guys and let them bask in the glory they deserve, not a glory that is spread around so thinly and is tainted like the Frankie Frisch elections will be forever tainted. I don't want to see "the class of 2006" get inducted, I want to see individuals with real life stories and real careers who can be appreciated as the individuals that they are. I am afraid this is not going to happen.
Powerful post, Marc/sunnyday.
Why the heck is this stuff so difficult to grasp?
At least leave the door open - 'This is a comprehensive review to see if we've overlooked Negro Leaguers. We may do it again, if we find that we still have further to go.'
One thing I will say. As much as I would not like to see unworthy Negro League candidates get in, all these guys got screwed in 'real baseball life,' and they're all good ballplayers.
If Chick Hafey and Highpockets Kelly and Jesse Haines weren't already in there, I'd be a lot more worked up about what might happen here.
The HOF lost a lot of credibility with me decades ago. This group will be hardpressed to elect the worst ballplayers into the HOF now.
Ain't that the truth, Howie.
Great discussion, guys!
I want to see Suttles...Torriente...Brown...written up in the sky by one of those airplanes that does that. I want baseball fans to see their names and hear about what they did. That is the only way to make things right.
But I'll bet any money that one who I don't feel is qualified will surely be elected: Buck O'Neil. It's obvious (despite the weird book written by his 40 years younger girlfriend about their relationship) that O'Neil is one hell of a human being (kind of the Nelson Mandela in his later years of the Negro Leagues), but his career, all by itself, falls far short.
But the Hall of Fame loves to have a living face to put up there for their elections and O'Neil is obviously the man.
As for some of the other guys on the list and off-:
Quincy Trouppe
Trouppe has two strikes against him that excluded him from the above list: too much time in Mexico and the reputations of Mackey and Santop, the catchers included. From a glance, it seems like the committee tried to balance the positions a little (which may explain the odd inclusion of Red Parnell). But, more importantly, Trouppe's high rating in the Hall of Merit flows from the fact that he walked an enormous amount. In my opinion, Trouppe merits our rating and was overlooked by those who would base their evalutions more of traditional statistics and reputation.
Rap Dixon
Dixon was an absolute monster player whose career was cut short by a back injury. Dixon was basically a bigger stronger version of Joe Medwick who had a great arm and the ability to take a walk. No real surprise for his inclusion.
Fats Jenkins
Jenkins is very very similar to Cool Papa Bell, only he was not quite as fast or as good a fielder but probably a better hitter. Plus he probably gets bonus points for being one of the greatest basketball players of his time, the heart and soul of the New York Rens. No real surprise that he was included either.
Did either Dixon or Jenkins ever get a thread?
The list of 39 was whittled down from an original list of 99. I saw it somewhere but can't find it. If anyone has it, could they post it?
But on the other hand, the guys deserve induction, so in this case, I guess I'm taking what we can get, machinations or otherwise. It's just another way in which blacks are either ignored or exploited by baseball for some kind of gain in money and perception. After all, if it was really about honoring great black players, this would have happened much longer ago---the Hall has always been dragged into inducting NgLs kicking and screaming.
As to how many guys could/should get in, if they scoop up twenty-five of them, that'll make 42 total NgL-only players. Add those guys to Campy, Jackie, Banks, Aaron (who are part of the integration generation) and you're close or on target to honoring about the same percentage of NgL players as the Hall has honored white MLB guys. (John and Marc, yes, I've revised down a bit.)
94 Negro League Players Considered
and I have a question for you - why Clarence Smith? I know the qualifications for the other 93, but Clarence Smith? Must be for his managerial career?
Anybody have any ideas?
C.I. Taylor's record is surprisingly poor--iirc, below .500 against NeL opposition. But his career was mostly pre-league, and a disproportionate number of games counted in these totals were against Foster's American Giants.
It was more or less openly said at the Negro League meeting at the SABR Convention in Toronto while Neyer and I were both in the room that the HOF was sitting on the info, to release a book in conjunction with next summers inductions. I am not clear if this is to avoid critcism of the inductees,or to try and move a bunch of books when there will be a huge amount of publicity - probably both.
By the way, speaking of RBHG, isn't that what Barry Bonds has been rubbing on his muscles?
I don't understand Minoso under consideration as a NeLer at all. He played the vast majority of his career in the MLs, so he should be considered in the same way Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, and Willie Mays are.
I don't know if they're bending the rules or not, but it's the right thing to do.
...why Clarence Smith? I know the qualifications for the other 93, but Clarence Smith? Must be for his managerial career?
Maybe they should have added Dick Allen and Ron Santo, too. ;-)
Riley's book doesn't say anything about his managerial work, so I have no idea why he's on the list, since he wasn't that great of a player, either.
I noticed that you originally asked your "Why Clarence Smith" question to me but, unfortunately, I really haven't got a clue why he was included. Maybe it was something like the old Lloyd Waner joke (i.e. the Hall of Fame elected Lloyd after mistakenly being given Paul's stats). Maybe Clarence was considered under Charles (Chino) Smith's stats.
I am also unaware that Clarence Smith had any managerial accomplishments at all.
Another really odd inclusion in the original list is William (Bill or Ready) Cash. Cash was a catcher in the 1940s and there is a lot of statistical information about him available. Cash had an incredibly great throwing arm, could hit a little, and is still alive. That being said is the sum total of his qualifications.
But, on the best day of his life, he couldn't carry Quincy Trouppe's glove. I doubt Cash would have been anything more than a back-up catcher in the Majors (Trouppe would have been a star). I don't understand his inclusion on the list either and would place him, with Clarence Smith, as
the oddest choices.
Considering the remarkable amount of talent left off, the inclusion of Smith and Cash is simply strange.
Hmm....
Actually, in the latest version of the list I've seen, Smith is gone. So it appears his inclusion was probably a mistake of one kind or another.
From: "Holmes, Dan" <dholmes@BASEBALLHALLOFFAME.ORG>
Subject: Negro Leagues and Pre-Negro Leagues Ballots
FYI - We're featuring bios of the 39 candidates for the special ballots
(Negro Lgs and Pre-Negro-Lgs) over the next few weeks, with one new bio
released each day at the Hall of Fame web site. Here's the direct link
to the page of info:
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/negro_leaguers.htm
The bios have been compiled by the committee commissioned to gather
information on negro leagues baseball and pre-negro leagues baseball,
and to vote on these candidates.
Dan Holmes
Web Manager
National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org
This was in today's Newark Star-Ledger. It's about one of the HOF Negro League panel members, but the lead is about Biz Mackey...
When does the HOF make their final decision?
The money is from We The People, right? NBHOFM is merely the administrator of a grant.
Shouldn't the book be released during February, Black History Month?
Has anyone noticed how the "baseball book" section at your local book stores has steadily shrunk over the past 20 years?
Do you mean the Boston Red Sox/ Fenway Park section or the general Baseball section? Actually, the (high) number of new baseball books surprises me every year, but I suppose its true that most of them don't show up in bookstores. How many books on the McFarland list show up in bookstores?
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