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Sunday, November 13, 2005

Hank Sauer

Eligible in 1965.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 13, 2005 at 11:27 PM | 30 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 14, 2005 at 12:05 AM (#1730128)
I don't really think he has a real case, but he was certainly better than what is represented in his ML numbers.
   2. Kelly in SD Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:00 AM (#1732085)
Hank Sauer's minor league odyssey:
year Pos G   AB  R   H   2b 3b HR RBI  Avg. Slg. Age
1937 1b   64 235  40  63  7  3  3  38 .268  .362 18
1938 1b  100 385  89 135 29  8 12  74 .351  .561 19
1939 1b  127 472  87 142 31  8 13  92 .301  .483 20 
1940 1/O 118 384  47 115 17 10  9  79 .292  .466 21
1941 1b  154 585  96 193 20 14 19 114 .330  .509 22
1941 OF    9  33   4  10  4  0  0   5 .303  .424 22 
1942 1b    7  20   4   5  0  0  2   4 .250  .550 23
1942 OF   82 291  35  62  9  2 11  44 .213  .371 23
1943 1/O 154 571  73 157 32  9 12  75 .275  .426 24
1944 military 
1945 military
1945 O/1  31 116  18  34  1  0  5  20 .293  .431 26
1946 OF  140 517  99 146 29  2 21  90 .282  .469 27
1947 OF  146 542 130 182 28  1 50 141 .336  .668 28
1948 Majors  


Teams and leagues
1937 Butler Penn St. League
1938 Butler, Penn St. League
1939 Akron, Mid Atlantic League
1940 Birmingham, Southern League
1941 Birmingham, Southern League
1941 Cincinnati, National League
1942 Cincinnati, National League
1942 Syracuse, International
1943 Syracuse, International
1945 Cincinnati, National
1946 Syracuse, International
1947 Syracuse, International
1948 Cincinnati, National
1949 Reds and Cubbies.

Remember that Bill McKechnie was the manager of the Reds from 1938 to 1946. McKechnie LOVED defense. Sauer had issues defensively. I read the career as follows:
1937: first year as a pro. Does fine for an 18 yr old.
1938: repeats same level. Leads league in games, hits, 2b, Avg. (maybe slugging b/c Dauggerotypes doesn't list this category). Let's keep an eye on this one.
1939: promoted (?), young for the level (?). Holds his own. Showing a good average, line drive power.
1940: promoted, doubles drop off, triple increase (park effect?), still a prospect.
1941: repeats level, shows as a great prospect. Was the Southern League one step below the IL and AA at the time? If so, a 22 year old with doubles/triples/homerun power who hit for average and could be stretched defensively to outfield would be quite a prospect.
1941: cup of coffee in the majors. Shows doubles power. Has to play outfield because the Reds have Frank McCormick at first (1940 MVP).
McKechnie loves defense. His 3 main outfielders have SLG of .368, .382, and .296. Sauer hits for a higher avergae and slugging in the admittedly limited time.
1942: I don't know if he started with Cincinnati and demoted or starts in Syracuse and is called up at the end of the season. Hits 2 homers in 20 AB. Has 4 starts at 1st and pinchhits 3 times. The 3 Reds OF with the most AB would hit 16 in 1159 AB. Frank McCormick, glove wizard still at first, McKechnie still manager.
1943: Full year at Syracuse in AA. Shows he can still hit. I understand Syracuse's home field was a large park so the triples were a park effect(?). Still only 24.
1944 - 45: Serves in the Coast Guard.
1945: Gets out in time to play 31 games with the Reds with the War-time ball. His 5 homers ties for the lead among all Reds outfielders and only 3 players hit more: Miller, SS, 13 in 115 games, McCormick, 1B, 10 in 152 games, Lakeman, C, 8 in 76 games. Sauer has a higher Avg and SLG than the 3 main OF starters and an OBP higher than 2 of them. McCormick and McKechnie still there.
1946: Sauer spends whole year in Syracuse. McKechnie still managing.
Only 2 players hit more than 8 homers for Reds.
1947: Sauer goes to 40-oz bat to slow bat through the zone. WOW. Spends whole year at Syracuse. Everyone who played OF for Reds hit 28 total.
1948: Gets his chance.
   3. AndrewJ Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:09 AM (#1732094)
He stole the 1952 National League MVP from Robin Roberts. Worst award vote ever!
   4. Chris Cobb Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:19 AM (#1732110)
FWIW, bp has Sauer as two years older than Kelly has him here (born March, 17, 1917), so 1948 is listed as Sauer's age 31 season!

I think Sauer could use some MLEs 1945-1947 and probably some war credit before that.

The Big Question: Is Hank Sauer the Gavvy Cravath of the 1940s??
   5. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:19 AM (#1732111)
If Sauer was black, he would have been Willard Brown.
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:42 AM (#1732142)
If Hank had a particular managerial technique, his teams could be said to be playing "Sauer Ball."
   7. DavidFoss Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:48 AM (#1732149)
Remember that Bill McKechnie was the manager of the Reds from 1938 to 1946. McKechnie LOVED defense.

Would just like to re-emphasize this. There's a chapter in Bill James' book on managers on McKechnie with a focus on how he built the 1939-40 Reds starting with the glove.

Its hard to question the results, but its too bad he didn't trade Sauer.
   8. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 03:48 AM (#1732150)
And if the hockey player Neal Broten had played baseball...aw, never mind.
   9. Trevor P. Posted: November 15, 2005 at 04:39 AM (#1732193)
Off-topic, but Neal Broten was my favorite hockey player when I was ten. I haven't seen or heard his name in probably five years, now. Thanks for that.
   10. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 05:14 AM (#1732222)
Trevor, where do you/did you live?

Being a Minnesotan, I knew Neal Broten when he was in high school and I saw him play in college. I'll never forget an NCAA semi in Detroit in 1979 against New Hampshire. NH kept the puck in the Gophers' end all night long, I'd say 55 out of 60 minutes. Except Broten scored on a couple breakaways. 2-1 Gophs.

His brother Aaron skated on the same line all the way through high school and college, too.
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 15, 2005 at 04:28 PM (#1732463)
He stole the 1952 National League MVP from Robin Roberts. Worst award vote ever!

We haven't seen this year's NL MVP Award yet.
   12. Paul Wendt Posted: November 15, 2005 at 05:18 PM (#1732533)
Howie Menckel
If Hank had a particular managerial technique, his teams could be said to be playing "Sauer Ball."


thinking of Hank Bauer?
(manager of my first team)
   13. Trevor P. Posted: November 15, 2005 at 06:11 PM (#1732614)
Sunnyday (or Marc, right?), I grew up in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, so there's no geographical reason why I liked Neal Broten so much. He's not even Canadian, eh. But for a few seasons in the early nineties, the NHL was hosting regular season games in non-NHL cities and my father and I saw the North Stars play twice in Saskatoon.

We also drove down to Minneapolis when I was twelve to see a Twins-A's game. A's won 8-7, but Dan Gladden (I think) almost won it with a walk-off homerun in the ninth, shanking a Dennis Eckersley pitch just right of the foul pole.

I really like Minnesota. I've met some very decent Minnesotans and were I ever to move to the States, I could see myself living there.
   14. DavidFoss Posted: November 15, 2005 at 06:32 PM (#1732661)
there's no geographical reason why I liked Neal Broten so much. He's not even Canadian, eh

Well, he hails from tiny Roseau, MN which is not far from the border with Manitoba. Population 2300 -- smaller than some of the enrollments of the big city high schools -- but still one of the big Minnesota high school hockey powers of the 1970s-80s. As a Minnesota native myself, I can confirm the hockey mania of the time. We always got a friday in March off from school because too many kids would be attending the tournament games or "sick" at home watching on TV. One of the reasons why the North Stars were not missed that much when they moved was because of the strong support for high school and college teams.
   15. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 06:32 PM (#1732662)
I could see Minnesota seceding and becoming a part of Canada, being a blue state and all.

And where the Brotens are from, Roseau, you could almost spit on Canadian soil, well, not against the prevailing northerlies of course.

Among old-timers Moose Goheen is the greatest all-time Minnesota hockey player(1930s), among the tweeners you've got John Mayasich (1950s), but among us younger folks (er, 'scuse me, among you younger folks) it is definitely Neal Broten (1970s-1980s).
   16. DavidFoss Posted: November 15, 2005 at 06:38 PM (#1732675)
Oh yeah, back on topic.

Is Sauer the next Cravath?

MLB-OPS's

Sauer-143-140-129-129-126
Gavvy-171-171-160-153-147 (not counting his partial season in 1919 at 213)

Cravath simply has a stronger base of MLB performance from which to incorporate minor league MLE's.
   17. OCF Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:00 PM (#1732714)
He stole the 1952 National League MVP from Robin Roberts. Worst award vote ever!

OK, I can see the argument. Another case of RBI being the only thing that counts. Even in the category of bat-first flank outfield MVP candidates, there was an obviously better choice in Musial. At a "glove" position, there was Jackie Robinson. And there was Roberts throwing 330 innings of ERA+ 141. But worst vote ever? There's a whole lot of competition for that honor.

For a case of position player - and maybe not even the right position player - gets an MVP award that should have gone to a pitcher, check out the 1985 NL.
   18. yest Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:17 PM (#1732744)
OK, I can see the argument. Another case of RBI being the only thing that counts.

his leading the NL in HRs probly had more to do with it then the RBIs
   19. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:26 PM (#1732759)
David and Trevor, Roseau remains a hockey power today. The Rams won the state title in 1990, then Minnesota went to two classes in the late '90s. Roseau's enrollment is well below the cut-off but they elected to move up to the big school class, and they won it again in 1999 against schools with nearly 10 times the enrollment.

As to the North Stars moving, there is a rumor that the NHL didn't play last year. Anybody know if it was true? Minnesotans were too busy watching the high schools and colleges to notice, though they have in fact gone back to see the Wild again this year as well. As for me, Gopher women's hockey is the best show in town (for hockey). Of course, Gopher women's basketball is also the best show in town for basketball. For volleyball, I kinda prefer the high schools (since my alma mater has been in four state championships in a row, winning in 2003 and 2005).

But for baseball it's gotta be the Big Leagues. Is it just me, but the skill level falls off so fast in baseball that I just don't enjoy even the minor leagues much less college or high schools. In other sports, the loss of skill doesn't translate into the same loss of excitement. Like I say, maybe it's just me.
   20. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:26 PM (#1732760)
Really bad MVP votes of my lifetime that stick out in my mind:
1979 (both leagues)
1984 AL (Willie Hernandez????)
1987 (both leagues, all RBI all the time!)
Whatever year Eck won it
Whatever year I-Rod won it
   21. yest Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:46 PM (#1732798)

1987 (both leagues, all RBI all the time!)


Andre Dawson had 49 HRs at a time when a lot of people thought that it would be along time before somone hit 50 HRs again granted Ozzie and Gwynn were better I would give Gwynn the MVP though Ozzie was a close second but you can't say the only reason Dawson won it was RBIs

George Bell granted there were a lot of players better but he did hit 47 HRs with a 308 batting avg. (even though his obp stunk)which might have won him the MVP with out leading in RBIs
   22. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:56 PM (#1732823)
I thought Ozzie was the MVP in the NL in '87.

I KNOW Alan Trammell was the MVP in the AL in '87.
   23. yest Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:07 PM (#1732840)
some of the recent MVPs that bug me (this dosn't mean there worst they just get on my nerves) I'm an AL fan so most are AL
1984 AL worst playes to ever win the MVP
1985 AL Boggs gets robbed
1986 AL Mattingly
1987 AL Boggs gets robbed again
1988 AL Boggs seems to be getting a little repetitve
1989 AL Boggs I guess the writers who left him off their ballots were right NOT DOMINANT
1990 NL Sandberg
2000 NL Helton
   24. OCF Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:48 PM (#1732942)
1987 ... Ozzie and Gwynn were better I would give Gwynn the MVP though Ozzie was a close second ...

My opinion at the time (1987): 1. Gwynn, 2. Raines, 3. Eric Davis, 4. Jack Clark, 5. Ozzie. And I was guilty of selling Strawberry short. A subsidiary shame as part of the whole thing is that Wallach (with the RBI's) got many more votes than his teammate Raines who was the one scoring those runs.

A thought I had in 1986, after they gave the AL MVP to Clemens:

Look at the narrower question of who was the team MVP of the Red Sox in 1986, and compare Boggs to Clemens. Look at the narrower question of who was the team MVP of the Cardinals in 1985 (leaving Ozzie out of it) and compare McGee to Tudor. Boggs had a stronger claim versus Clemens than McGee did versus Tudor. (The fact that Clemens had a W-L record a few games better than his ERA+ or RA+ would support is part of why the voters went for him.) But Tudor couldn't possibly have been the NL MVP, because he was obviously the 2nd best pitcher in the league, not the best pitcher.

I KNOW Alan Trammell was the MVP in the AL in '87.

You got that right.
   25. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:08 PM (#1732985)
>>I KNOW Alan Trammell was the MVP in the AL in '87.

>You got that right.

Except as I recall the players vote went to Jorge Bell, just like Andruw this year. Similar picks, similarly wrong.
   26. DavidFoss Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:07 PM (#1733108)
Except as I recall the players vote went to Jorge Bell, just like Andruw this year. Similar picks, similarly wrong.
Page 1 of 1 pages


EEP! You scared me! I had to run and check. Pujols is the 2005 NL MVP.
   27. DavidFoss Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:21 PM (#1733129)
Oh, I missed 'players vote' so I shouldn't have really been scared. Never mind! Congrats to Albert P.
   28. ronw Posted: November 15, 2005 at 11:23 PM (#1733242)
From Paul Wendt #12:

thinking of Hank Bauer?
(manager of my first team)


Your first team as a fan or as a player?
   29. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: November 16, 2005 at 04:38 AM (#1733582)
Tim Raines should have won the 1987 MVP, even with the missed 19 games (due to collusion). :-)

Expos were 8-11 while he was out. He comes back and they go 83-60, which would have been good enough to win the division, in a year they were dead an buried. I think he was the best player in baseball from 1985-87, except for maybe Rickey, but Rickey missed like 1/2 of 1987.
   30. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: November 16, 2005 at 04:42 AM (#1733583)
As a 14-year old kid, I was one of 37825 at his comeback game, by the way. May 2, 1987 at Shea, check that one out on retrosheet, set the tone for the entire season:

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05020NYN1987.htm

I would have caught a foul ball, a line drive off Mookie Wilson's bat in the 1st inning. But we were late. As I was sitting down, I heard a thud on my seat, and then the kid behind me is screaming, 'Wholly Sh!t, Wholly Sh!t, I got a ball, I got a ball!". Would have been mine if we were on time, bummer.

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