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Monday, February 07, 2005

Heinie Manush

When you think about it, one would have to be a Manush type of guy to be named Heinie today. :-)

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2005 at 04:30 AM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2005 at 04:47 AM (#1129627)
Doesn't do much for me. Probably be on the outside looking in of the HoM.
   2. DavidFoss Posted: February 07, 2005 at 07:23 AM (#1129812)
He looks a lot like a slow Kiki Cuyler.

Traded with Al Crowder for Goose Goslin. Its just an anecdote, but it says a bit about the difference in value between Goslin/Manush. Crowder was a decent pitcher.
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: February 07, 2005 at 03:08 PM (#1130087)
22 all-time Heinies, but not a single one left when WW II ended. Manush should grab the No. 2 Heinie spot (hmm, that sounds odd), though there is some competition.

Heinie Beckendorf 1909-1910
Heinie Berger 1907-1910
Heinie Elder 1913-1913
Heinie Groh 1912-1927
Heinie Heitmuller 1909-1910
Heinie Heltzel 1943-1944
Heinie Jantzen 1912-1912
Heinie Kappel 1887-1889
Heinie Manush 1923-1939
Heinie Meine 1922-1934
Heinie Mueller 1920-1935
Heinie Mueller 1938-1941
Heinie Odom 1925-1925
Heinie Peitz 1892-1913
Heinie Reitz 1893-1899
Heinie Sand 1923-1928
Heinie Scheer 1922-1923
Heinie Schuble 1927-1936
Heinie Smith 1897-1903
Heinie Stafford 1916-1916
Heinie Wagner 1902-1918
Heinie Zimmerman 1907-1919
   4. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: February 07, 2005 at 03:41 PM (#1130116)
A la my comment on Lazzeri over on his thread....
I adjust WS to 162 games. Here's the group I see Manush falling into among pre WW2 corner OFs. Name, followed by best 3, 5, 10, 15, career (all non consecutive), listed in alpha order.

MANUSH: 95, 146, 248, 299, 300
================================
CUYLER: 94, 147, 257, 307, 307

HARTSEL: 93, 147, 243, 241, 241

HOOPER: 90, 135, 239, 326, 346

KLEIN: 94, 147, 228, 254, 254

RICE: 76, 125, 240, 321, 331

THOMPSON: 98, 151, 255, 285, 285

TIERNAN: 93, 154, 264, 296, 296

VEACH: 101, 156, 256, 286, 286

Not quite as tidy of a group as Lazzeri fits into, but you can sort of triangulate among these guys and figure Heine's a secondary or tertiary candidate.

It also makes you wonder if Big Sam was perhaps the weakest candidate we've elected.
   5. Chris Cobb Posted: February 07, 2005 at 04:16 PM (#1130163)
It also makes you wonder if Big Sam was perhaps the weakest candidate we've elected.

By win shares, for those HoM members whose careers are documented by the win shares system, Thompson is definitely the weakest by a considerable margin.

However, he looks very different in WARP and in his raw stats, so there was wide belief that the win shares representation of his career was inaccurate.
   6. OCF Posted: February 07, 2005 at 07:29 PM (#1130483)
Henry Emmett Manush. Like nearly all of the "Heinie"s, his American birth certificate said "Henry." We don't know what they called him when he was baptised. I suspect in most cases that "Heinie" was a family childhood nickname; I'm just happy that Gehrig's family called him by his other given name.

How much German community was there in Alabama, where he was born? I associate Germans with a lot of places: central Pennsylvania, central Texas, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Chicago - but not Alabama.

As for Manush the player: I've got him just a hair behind Cuyler all the way around. Compared to George Burns, I've got Burns a little ahead on peak, Manush a little ahead on career - since I have this thing about leadoff hitters, I think I prefer Burns. Neither Cuyler nor Burns cracked my top 15, and Manush won't either.

Yeah, Sam Thompson makes a lousy threshold standard for admission.
   7. Brad G Posted: February 07, 2005 at 07:35 PM (#1130500)
Yeah, Sam Thompson makes a lousy threshold standard for admission.

now, now... don't get us "Start"ed!
   8. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 07, 2005 at 07:53 PM (#1130553)
Yeah, Sam Thompson makes a lousy threshold standard for admission.

I wasn't a huge fan of Big Sam, but there was a difference between the durablity levels of his time and Manush's time.
   9. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: February 07, 2005 at 08:57 PM (#1130670)
OCF,

I prefer Burns as well, and I've got him ahead on all counts once you adjust to 162.

I'm not as sure whether I think I prefer Veach to Manush and Cuyler because he concentrated so much value into his prime, but since none of the three is likely to appear on my ballot anytime soon, there's plenty of time to consider that question.
   10. OCF Posted: February 07, 2005 at 09:59 PM (#1130793)
wasn't a huge fan of Big Sam, but there was a difference between the durablity levels of his time and Manush's time.

My comment was looking forward, not back, and your comment is also looking forward. We have many flank outfielders to sort through over the next 50 years, and we will, in practice, be setting a fairly high objective standard for them. The subject at hand is Manush - and Cuyler, Burns, Cravath, Youngs, Babe Herman, Veach, Klein when he's eligible, and so on.
   11. Paul Wendt Posted: February 08, 2005 at 02:10 AM (#1131214)
Henry Emmett Manush. Like nearly all of the "Heinie"s, his American birth certificate said "Henry." We don't know what they called him when he was baptised.

meaning perhaps baptised as Heinrich but inscribed as Henry?

I suspect in most cases that "Heinie" was a family childhood nickname; I'm just happy that Gehrig's family called him by his other given name.

How much German community was there in Alabama, where he was born? I associate Germans with a lot of places: central Pennsylvania, central Texas, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Chicago - but not Alabama.


Birmingham industrialized in the 19th century, so I infer German immigration. About Cullen, N of Birmingham, a National Geographic map says "When the locale proved unsuitable for vineyards, German immigrants of the 1870s succeeded with strawberries and other crops."

Earlier (~1800?), there was heavy migration of first-wave German immigrants from PA (and neighbors?) to everywhere in the upper regions of the South, above the plantation system. Maybe including the first white settlement of NE Alabama, geographically an extension of upper TN and GA. But "German community" ~1900 among people of first-wave German descent? I suppose not.
   12. KJOK Posted: February 08, 2005 at 04:25 AM (#1131434)
Contemporary comp would probably be George Foster. He could hit, but only an average fielding LF, and doesn't seem to be better than Jimmy Ryan, much less the whole OF glut of Van Haltren/Duff/et al...
   13. Paul Wendt Posted: February 08, 2005 at 05:33 PM (#1132486)
re Alabama,
Earlier (~1800?), there was heavy migration of first-wave German immigrants from PA (and neighbors?) to everywhere in the upper regions of the South, above the plantation system.

maybe not South of VA,NC,TN. I-81 follows the 18th century trunk line from Eastern PA to Knoxville TN. There was plenty of land on the West side without going further South and south of TN was Cherokee country until the Dahlonega GA gold rush ~1820.

--
One of the finest websites of the last millenium is a map of the US showing the distribution of a given surname by state in nine colors. Unfortunately, it hasn't changed substantially since 1999, although the 'net could easily distribute county data today.
Surname distribution by US state

'Manush' is not in the database of 50000 names. In 1920, 'Mueller' (a German Miller) was common specifically in Alabama, surpassed only by Iowa and Wisconsin. 'Mueller' in 1920

Beware! I find it addictive.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: February 08, 2005 at 05:55 PM (#1132537)
Well, I have a pretty common (real) last name, and nearly my entire 1990 map is mid-level green, so not a lot learned there. Looks like almost none of us are in Arkansas, very few in Mississippi, otherwise pretty evenly distributed.
The 1920 winner for me by far is Montana (1 in 200); the 1880 winner is Nevada (1 in 300).

They had Irish people in those states back then? Seems like tiny sample sizes cause a problem here.
   15. OCF Posted: February 08, 2005 at 07:00 PM (#1132636)
Beware! I find it addictive.

No kidding! To contrast two Spanish last names I looked up "Garcia" and "Garza". I would have thought "Garcia" would pretty broadly track those of Spanish-speaking ancestry. It does, but there's always been a specific concentration in New Mexico. I knew "Garza" was a Texas name, and it is, until the mid-late 20th century flings what are probably transplanted Texans across the landscape.
   16. Michael Bass Posted: February 08, 2005 at 09:11 PM (#1132889)
I'm with John on this one, doesn't do anything for me at all. Not ever going to make my ballot.
   17. jonesy Posted: February 09, 2005 at 12:41 AM (#1133304)
Manush Minutia

TSN on Feburary 9, 1922 ran a photo of the seven ball-playing Manush brothers.

1. Heinie

2. Frank: reportedly began playing pro in 1906. TSN issue of 9/14/1916 gave all his career stops through that point in time.

3. George: born in 1886 in Alabama. Died in an auto accident in Burlington, Iowa on January 1, 1923. Reportedly started to play in 1906 (with Memphis) and played "coast to coast." Last as manager with the Clinton, Iowa team in 1916.

4. Earl: Sporting Life on 2/13/1913 reported Earl signing with Meridan in the Cotton States League, while Frank was with Toledo and George with Ottumwa. TSN in 1923 reported Earl unretiring and making a comeback with Hamilton in the MINT League. Earl was a pitcher.

5. Harry. This must have been confusing for Mrs. Manush to have one son named Harry and one named Heinie. TSN in June of 1923 reported sale of Harry from Saginaw to Omaha. He jumped the Omaha team to play independent ball in Iowa. TSN reported in April of 1926 that Harry, having been on OB's ineligible list, has signed with Sarasota of the Florida State League.

TSN issue of 7/7/1938 reported the brothers' mother, Catherine Manush, dying in Tuscumbia, Alabama on July 2.

Seems I recall reading a story about one of the other two brothers playing baseball in Panama.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: February 09, 2005 at 04:10 PM (#1134200)
HOM OFs, by year, through 1944 election. Must have played half a team's games and mainly this position to be listed:
1867 (1) - Pike OF-IF
1868 (1) - Pike
1869 (1) - McVey
1870 (1) - McVey
1871 (1) - Pike
1872 (1) - Pike OF-2B
1873 (2) - Pike OF-SS, Hines
1874 (2) - McVey, Hines
1875 (2) - Pike, Hines OF-2B, O'Rourke OF-3B
1876 (3) - Pike, Hines, O'Rourke
1877 (3) - Pike OF-2B, Hines, O'Rourke
1878 (5) - Pike, Hines, O'Rourke, Anson, Kelly
1879 (3) - Hines, O'Rourke, Gore
1880 (5) - Hines, O'Rourke OF-1S, Kelly OF, Gore, Stovey OF-1B
1881 (5) - Hines, Kelly, Gore, Brouthers OF-1B, Richardson
1882 (3) - Hines, O'Rourke, Gore
1883 (4) - Hines, O'Rourke OF-C, Kelly OF-C, Gore
1884 (5) - Hines, O'Rourke, Kelly OF-C, Gore, Ward OF-2B
1885 (5) - Hines, O'Rourke, Kelly OF-C, Gore, Thompson
1886 (8) - Hines, O'Rourke OF-C, Kelly OF-C, Gore, Stovey OF-1B, Richardson OF-2B, Thompson, Sutton OF-3S2
1887 (5) - Hines, Kelly OF-2C, Gore, Stovey OF-1B, Thompson
1888 (3) - Hines, O'Rourke, Stovey
1889 (6) - O'Rourke, Kelly, Gore, Stovey, Thompson, Hamilton
1890 (7) - O'Rourke, Gore, Stovey, Richardson, Thompson, Hamilton, Burkett OF-P, Davis
1891 (7) - O'Rourke, Gore, Stovey, Thompson, Hamilton, Delahanty
1892 (7) - O'Rourke, Stovey, Thompson, Hamilton, Delahanty, Burkett, Caruthers
1893 (7) - O'Rourke, Thompson, Hamilton, Delahanty, Burkett, Kelley, Ewing
1894-96 (7) - Thompson, Hamilton, Delahanty, Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke
1897 (6) - Hamilton, Delahanty, Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke
1898-99 (8) - Hamilton, Delahanty, Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Flick
1900 (9) - Hamilton, Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke, Wagner, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford
1901 (10) - Hamilton, Delahanty OF-1B, Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill
1902 (10) - Delahanty, Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke, Wagner OF-S1, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill
1903 (7) - Burkett, Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill
1904 (7) - Burkett, Keeler, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill, Magee
1905 (8) - Burkett, Kelley, Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill, Magee
1906 (9) - Kelley, Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb
1907 (8) - Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Flick, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb
1908 (7) - Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb
1909 (8) - Keeler, Clarke, Sheckard, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker
1910 (8) - Clarke, Sheckard, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat
1911 (9) - Clarke, Sheckard, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey
1912 (8) - Sheckard, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey
1913 (9) - Sheckard, Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey, Torriente
1914 (8) - Crawford, Hill, Magee OF-S1, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey, Torriente
1915 (8) - Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey, Torriente
1916 (11) - Crawford, Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey, Torriente, Charleston
1917 (10) - Hill, Magee, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey, Torriente, Heilmann, Charleston
1918 (9) - Hill, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Carey, Torriente, Heilmann OF-1B, Ruth OF-P, Charleston
1919 (8) - Hill, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Torriente, Ruth, Charleston
1920 (9) - Hill, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Jackson, Carey, Torriente, Ruth, Charleston
1921 (9) - Hill, Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Carey, Torriente, Heilmann, Ruth, Charleston
1922-26 (8) - Cobb, Speaker, Wheat, Carey, Torriente, Heilmann, Ruth, Charleston
1927 (7) - Cobb, Speaker, Carey, Torriente, Heilmann, Ruth, Charleston
1928 (5) - Cobb, Carey, Heilmann, Ruth, Charleston
1929 (3) - Heilmann, Ruth, Charleston
1930 (2) - Heilmann, Ruth
1931-34 (1) - Ruth

C Jones would be 1876-80, 1883-87
Browning would be 1883, 1885-92
Ryan would be 1886-1900, 1902-03
Duffy would be 1888-99, 1901
Van Haltren would be 1889, 1891-01, 1903
Bresnahan would be 1902-04
Leach would be 1905, 1907, 1909-15
Roush would be 1915-21, 1923-27, 1929, 1931
Schang would be 1916
Rice would be 1917, 1919-31, 1934
Goslin would be 1922-37
   19. Paul Wendt Posted: February 09, 2005 at 11:49 PM (#1135158)
Well, I have a pretty common (real) last name, and nearly my entire 1990 map is mid-level green, so not a lot learned there.

If you check Bush
rhymes with Manush
you'll see much to learn
in a sea of pea-green

Check Bush (or Wendt, for contrast) in 1990 and step back 1920, 1880, 1850.
   20. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: February 10, 2005 at 09:27 PM (#1137215)
While the era is underrepresented in terms of overall players, it appears that the 1890's are fully represented when it comes to outfielders. Maybe we need to fctor in how tough it was for guys like Childs and Jennings to build long careers during this period?

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