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Wednesday, April 27, 2005

Jack Fournier

Jack Fournier

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 27, 2005 at 08:11 PM | 28 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 27, 2005 at 08:18 PM (#1293423)
I'm surprised I never made up a thread for him. I guess nobody cared at that time.

Hopefully this thread will be used to see if Fournier has a HoM case and not be used as a way to bash Beckley. ;-)
   2. Chris Cobb Posted: April 27, 2005 at 08:41 PM (#1293505)
Just looking at WARP1 to get a conversation started here, I surmise that if Fournier's minor-league play 1917-19 is better than his major-league play in 1920 and 1921, then he has a case to be as meritorious as Sisler. If his minor-league seasons were as good as his peak major-league seasons in 1915 and 1923-35, he could be better than Sisler. The former seems possible; the latter seems rather unlikely.

_Terrible fielder_.
   3. Carl G Posted: April 27, 2005 at 08:53 PM (#1293586)
'Hopefully this thread will be used to see if Fournier has a HoM case and not be used as a way to bash Beckley. ;-) '

Beckley sucks! :)
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 27, 2005 at 08:55 PM (#1293606)
Beckley sucks! :)

Oh, yeah? Sez who?

LOL
   5. PhillyBooster Posted: April 27, 2005 at 09:20 PM (#1293727)
Jack Fournier:

1917 Los Angeles Angels:

512 AB
156 H
29 2B
6 3B
7 HR
.305 BA

Teammates included past and future major league regulars Irish Meusel (.311), Red Killefer (.295), Bill Kenworthy (.302), Zeb Terry (.251), and Johnny Bassler (.284) Frank Chance was 1 for 2 pinch hitting as manager. The pitching rotation was Doc Crandall, Brad Hogg, Charley Hall, and Curly Brown, all of whom had more than a cup of coffee in the majors. They finished 116-94, but second to San Francisco (1917).

League leaders including Morrie Rath (.341 BA), Jack Tobin (265 H), Jack Farmer (50 2B, 12 3B) and Ken Williams (24 HR).
   6. jimd Posted: April 27, 2005 at 09:32 PM (#1293769)
Continuing the list presented on the Beckley thread:

Top 8 1b-men (by WARP) 1907-1940:

1907 chance, tenney, j.donahue, mcgann, h.davis, ganzel, t.jones, jordan
1908 stovall, chance, konetchy, tenney, h.davis, rossman, ganzel, bransfield
1909 Konetchy, Hoblitzel, j.stahl, t.jones, h.davis, jordan, bransfield, isbell
1910 Konetchy, J.Stahl, chase, merkle, daubert, chance, hoblitzel, stovall
1911 Konetchy, merkle, daubert, luderus, schaefer, chase, mcinnis, j.delahanty
1912 McInnis, konetchy, daubert, d.miller, luderus, merkle, gandil, griggs
1913 MCINNIS, daubert, Konetchy, saier, gandil, d.miller, myers, hoblitzel
1914 merkle, gandil, mcinnis, saier, d.miller, konetchy, burns, daubert, schmidt, fournier, chase, evans
1915 Luderus, konetchy, fournier, daubert, pipp, saier, merkle, hoblitzel, johnston, gandil, borton, d.miller
1916 daubert, pipp, konetchy, Sisler, gandil, saier, hoblitzel, chase
1917 Sisler, mcinnis, konetchy, judge, luderus, j.harris, pipp, hoblitzel
1918 SISLER, BURNS, Merkle, daubert, luderus, holke, mcinnis, judge
1919 SISLER, judge, heilmann, konetchy, j.harris, whitted, mcinnis, holke
1920 SISLER, judge, fournier, pipp, kelly, daubert, konetchy, mcinnis
1921 Sisler, grimes, fournier, kelly, pipp, grimm, blue, sheely
1922 Sisler, Grimes, blue, pipp, kelly, sheely, daubert, burns
1923 fournier, burns, blue, bottomley, hauser, grimm, kelly, sheely
1924 FOURNIER, judge, kelly, hauser, pipp, blue, burns, j.harris
1925 BOTTOMLEY, Fournier, blue, burrus, gehrig, burns, terry, judge
1926 GEHRIG, Bottomley, burns, pipp, judge, kelly, sheely, blue
1927 GEHRIG, TERRY, Bottomley, j.harris, herman, burns, dykes, judge
1928 GEHRIG, Bottomley, Blue, bissonette, terry, grantham, sisler, hurst
1929 GEHRIG, FOXX, Terry, fonseca, alexander, bottomley, judge, blue
1930 TERRY, GEHRIG, Foxx, Morgan, judge, alexander, bissonette, suhr
1931 GEHRIG, TERRY, Blue, grimm, bottomley, morgan, durst, foxx
1932 FOXX, TERRY, GEHRIG, Hurst, alexander, grimm, j.burns, hendrick
1933 FOXX, GEHRIG, collins, suhr, kuhel, terry, greenberg, jordan
1934 GEHRIG, FOXX, Greenberg, Collins, Terry, bonura, suhr, trosky
1935 GEHRIG, FOXX, GREENBERG, Terry, Collins, bonura, suhr, leslie
1936 GEHRIG, SUHR, Foxx, Camilli, mize, bonura, kuhel, trosky
1937 GREENBERG, GEHRIG, CAMILLI, Mize, Foxx, bonura, suhr, kuhel
1938 GREENBERG, FOXX, MIZE, Camilli, Trosky, gehrig, fletcher, bonura
1939 MIZE, CAMILLI, Foxx, Greenberg, Trosky, McCormick, bonura, kuhel
1940 MIZE, YORK, FLETCHER, McCormick, Camilli, trosky, kuhel, foxx

All-Caps (e.g. FOURNIER) -- makes list of top-16 players in MLB
Capitalized (e.g. Fournier) -- makes list of top-32 players in MLB
   7. PhillyBooster Posted: April 27, 2005 at 09:32 PM (#1293771)
1918 Los Angeles Angels

400 AB (in 100 games? Did he pinch hit, or walk a lot?)
130 H (second in league to Hack Miller's 131)
27 2B (led league)
12 3B (led league)
4 HR
.325 BA (eyeballing, looks like second in the league to Art Griggs)

The Angels again finished second, this time to the Vernon Tigers, who rode pitching to the title, with Jack Quinn's Federal-League-reject arm giving a 14-9 record and 1.43 ERA, and Wheezer Dell matching him with a 14-7, 1.54. Art Fromme and Charlie Chech rounded out the Vernon rotation.

(The league stopped early for the war).
   8. PhillyBooster Posted: April 27, 2005 at 09:39 PM (#1293787)
1919 Los Angeles Angels, second again to Vernon Tigers

AB: 638
H: 209 ("New" teammate 38 y.o. Sam Crawford led the league with 239).
2B 36 (Bill Rumler led league with 42)
3B: 19 (led league)
HR: 11 (Earl Sheely led the league with 28)
BA: .328 (Bill Rumler led the league with a .362. Crawford led the Angels with a .360).

Overall, with major league contraction after the Federal League, a huge percentage of these guys had major league experience.
   9. Paul Wendt Posted: April 28, 2005 at 12:31 AM (#1294227)
Comiskey, after three weeks in Texas, is optimistic about recruits. "Fournier appears to have qualities which may make him a second Lajoie."
-SL 1912-03-30 p5 Latest News

Beside the remarkably great expectation, this suggests to me that Fournier was out of place in his time, maybe a slugger. Compare J.C. Morse on Cravath's method of hitting, Fall 1907. Unfortunately for this purpose, SL (like BBMag) is short on description. So I speculate.
   10. Paul Wendt Posted: April 28, 2005 at 12:35 AM (#1294245)
Let it be here, since Fournier is the 1Bman of the moment --at least, the educational moment.

"How to Play First Base" by Fred Tenney, Baseball Magazine 3.2 (Jun 1909) p64.
1B was considered the place for a tall man. 1Bmen are now smaller, more active men. Tenney recommends a small light glove for "one-hand work."

BBMag (J.C. Morse, Ed.?) made the same point about height, in earlier comment on a remark by 1B Dan McGann. McGann had expressed the old view that 1B is for a tall man and a tall man is for 1B.
   11. Kelly in SD Posted: April 28, 2005 at 08:04 PM (#1295959)
jimd,

I'll see if I can get a similar list up for Win Shares this evening.

To add to PhillyBooster's stat lines for Fournier:
from Daguerrotypes (so some numbers may be off)

year Gms ABs Rns Hit 2B 3B HR SB Avg. Slg.
1917 144 512 076 156 29 06 07 38 .305 .426
1918 104 400 052 130 26 13 04 37 .325 .485
1919 169 638 108 209 36 19 11 44 .328 .495

In his 1918 call-up to the Yankees, he did:
1918 27 100 9 35 6 1 0 7 .350 .430
From STATS,
he had 12 RBI,
walked 7 times
struckout 7 times
OBP: .393
RC/27: 6.47 vs. LgAvg 3.64
He did make 7 errors in 27 games at first.

Fielding
year POs As Es Pct.
1917 1431 88 17 .989
1918 no record
1919 1731 114 10 .995
He led the league in percentage in 1919.

Does anyone know if his errors were throwing or catching errors?
   12. Kelly in SD Posted: April 29, 2005 at 08:38 AM (#1297322)
First basemen 1903 - 1942 part 1 of 3
Finishes in top 20 players in their league (pitchers and position players inclusive): Bold means top 10. CAPS means best in league. Ranked in order of Win Shares so in 1913 McInnis is listed first because he had more win shares than Saier though Saier was in the NL’s top 10 while McInnis was not in AL top 10.

1903: Chance
1904: Chance, Beckley
1905: H Davis, Chance
1906: Chance, H Davis, Jordan
1907: Chance, Tenney, Jordan, H Davis
1908: Rossman, Stovall
1909: Konetchy, Hoblitzel, J Stahl
1910: Konetchy
1911: Konetchy, J Delahanty
1912: McInnis, Konetchy
1913: McInnis, Saier
1914: Saier, McInnis
1915: Fournier, Daubert, Konetchy, Luderus, Saier, Merkle, Chase
1916: Konetchy, Sisler, Chase, Daubert
1917: Sisler
1918: Burns (the other one), Merkle, Sisler, S Magee
1919: Sisler, Heilmann
1920: Sisler, Daubert
1921: Sisler, Fournier, Kelly
1922: Sisler, R Grimes, Pipp, Kelly
1923: Fournier, Bottomley, Grimm
1924: Fournier, Kelly, Hauser
1925: Fournier, Bottomley, Barrus, Sheely
1926: Gehrig, Burns, Bottomley, Herman
1927: Gehrig, Terry, Bottomley
1928: Gehrig, Bottomley, Bissonette, Terry, Blue
1929: FOXX, Gehrig, Fonseca, Alexander, Terry
1930: GEHRIG, Foxx, Terry, Morgan
1931: Gehrig, Terry, Blue, Foxx, Morgan, Grimm
1932: FOXX, Gehrig, Terry, Hurst
1933: FOXX, Gehrig, Kuhel, Terry
1934: GEHRIG, Foxx, Collins, Greenberg, Terry, Trosky, Leslie
1935: Gehrig, Greenberg, Foxx, Collins, Terry
1936: GEHRIG, Foxx, Mize, Suhr, Bonura, Camili
1937: Gehrig, Mize, Greenberg, Camili, Trosky, Foxx
1938: FOXX, GREENBERG, Mize, Camili, Gehrig, Trosky, Suhr, Fletcher, McCormick
1939: Mize, Foxx, Camili, McCormick, Greenberg, Trosky, Hack
1940: MIZE, McCormick, Trosky, York, Fletcher, Camili, Foxx
1941: Camili, Fletcher, Mize
1942: Mize, Fleming, Camili, Fletcher
   13. Kelly in SD Posted: April 29, 2005 at 08:39 AM (#1297323)
part 2 of 3

Finishes in top 40 players in the majors (pitchers and position players inclusive): Bold means in top 10. CAPS means best in majors.
1903: Chance
1904: Chance (tied w/ 3 others)
1905: H Davis, Chance
1906: Chance, H Davis
1907: Chance, Tenney, Jordan, H Davis
1908: Rossman
1909: Konetchy, Hoblitzel, J Stahl
1910: Konetchy
1911: Konetchy
1912: McInnis, Konetchy
1913: McInnis, Saier
1914: Saier, McInnis
1915: Fournier, Daubert, Konetchy, Luderus
1916: Konetchy, Sisler, Chase
1917: Sisler
1918: Burns, Merkle, Sisler, S Magee
1919: Sisler, Heilmann
1920: Sisler, Daubert
1921: Sisler, Fournier, Kelly
1922: Sisler, R Grimes b, Pipp
1923: Fournier, Bottomley, Grimm
1924: Fournier, Kelly, Hauser
1925: Fournier, Bottomley
1926: Gehrig, Burns, Bottomley
1927: Gehrig, Terry, Bottomley
1928: Gehrig, Bottomley, Bissonette, Terry, Blue
1929: Foxx, Gehrig, Fonseca, Alexander, Terry
1930: GEHRIG, Foxx, Terry, Morgan
1931: Gehrig, Terry, Blue, Foxx, Morgan, Grimm
1932: FOXX, Gehrig, Terry, Hurst
1933: FOXX, Gehrig, Kuhel, Terry
1934: GEHRIG, Foxx, Greenberg, Terry, Trosky, Leslie
1935: Gehrig, Greenberg, Foxx, Collins, Terry
1936: GEHRIG, Foxx, Mize, Suhr, Bonura, Camili
1937: Gehrig, Mize, Greenberg, Camili, Trosky, Foxx
1938: Foxx, Greenberg, Mize, Camili, Gehrig, Trosky, Suhr, Fletcher, McCormick
1939: Mize, Foxx, Camili, McCormick, Greenberg, Trosky, Hack
1940: Mize, Trosky, McCormick, Fletcher, York, Camili, Foxx
1941: Camili, Fletcher, Mize
1942: Mize, Fleming, Camili, Fletcher
   14. Kelly in SD Posted: April 29, 2005 at 09:21 AM (#1297338)
part 3 of 3

Overall:
Best Player in Majors:
Gehrig: 1930, 1934, 1936
Foxx: 1932, 1933

Best Player in his League:
Foxx: 1929, 1932, 1933, 1938
Gehrig: 1930, 1934, 1936
Greenberg: 1938
Mize: 1940

Top 10 player in majors:
Gehrig: 1926 to 1937 inclusive, 12 years

Foxx: 1929, 1930, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1938, 1939

Mize: 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1942 (plus more after the war)

Chance: 1903, 1904, 1906
Terry: 1930, 1931, 1932
Greenberg: 1935, 1937, 1938 (plus OF in 1940, and after the war)

Sisler: 1920, 1922
Fournier: 1924, 1925
Bottomley: 1925, 1928
Camili: 1939, 1941

Davis: 1906
Grimes: 1922
Fleming: 1942

Top 10 player in their league:
Gehrig: 1926 through 1938, 13 years inclusive

Foxx: 1929, 1930, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1934, 1936, 1938, 1939

Mize: 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942 (plus more after the war)

Fournier: 1915, 1921, 1923, 1924, 1925
Terry: 1927, 1930, 1931, 1932, 1934
Camili: 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942

Konetchy: 1910, 1911, 1915, 1916 (1915 was Federal League)
Sisler: 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922
Bottomley: 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928
Greenberg: 1934, 1935, 1937, 1938 (plus outfield in 1940, and after the war)

Chance: 1903, 1904, 1906
Trosky: 1934, 1938, 1940
Fletcher: 1940, 1941, 1942

Kelly: 1921, 1924
Collins: 1934, 1935
McCormick: 1939, 1940

Davis: 1906
Saier: 1913
Daubert: 1915
Luderus: 1915
Burns: 1918
Merkle: 1918
Grimes: 1922
Morgan: 1930
Blue: 1931
Kuhel: 1933
Suhr: 1936
Fleming: 1942


Quite a dearth after Chance. Actually, it started before Chance. Dan Brouthers in 1892 was the last first baseman to finish in the major league top 10 players until Chance in 1903. In fact, it was not until Buck Freeman in 1901 AL that a first baseman was a top 10 player in his league.
   15. Kelly in SD Posted: April 29, 2005 at 09:26 AM (#1297341)
While I had the spreadsheet up, I thought I would take a look at the distribution of top 10 and 20 seasons by position during the 9 years of the one league NL. Here is what I found:

firstbasemen to finish among their league's top 20 players:

1892: Brouthers 6th overall w/ 34 win shares
1893: none
1894: Brouthers tied for 20th-23rd w/21 w/ Dahlen, Burkett, and GVH
1895: none
1896: none
1897: none
1898: none
1899: none
1900: Beckley tied for 17th-21st w/21 w/ Dahlen, McGraw, GVH, and Hahn

There were no catchers during this period. No surprise.

Second basemen:
Childs had the only top 10, 1892.
Top 20s:
Childs: 1893, 1896
McPhee: 1892
Lowe: 1893
Daly: 1899
Lajoie: 1900

Third Basemen:
Top 10s
McGraw: 1898, 1899
J Collins: 1898
J Williams: 1899
Top 20s
McGraw: 1894, 1900
G Davis: 1893, 1894, plus top 10 in 1897 as a shortstop
Nash: 1893
Cross: 1894
J Collins: 1897

Shortstop:
Top 10s
Jennings: 1895, 1896, 1897, 1898
Dahlen: 1892, 1896
Long: 1893
G Davis: 1897
Top 20s
Long: 1892
Jennings: 1894
McKean: 1895
Dahlen: 1898, 1900

That's:
Catcher: 0
1st: 3 top 20s, 1 of which is a top 10
2nd: 7 and 1
3rd: 11 and 4
SS: 13 and 8
OF: 70 and 26 (7 are in 1900) and 2 best players in the league overall. Ed Delahanty in 1899 is the first position player to have the highest win share total among all players.
Pitcher: 80 and 54

The totals add up to 184 and 96 because of ties.

Is this ammunition for Childs, McGraw, and Jennings backers? Should they receive a little more credit for their achievements in an era when playing the infield gave you a career expectancy of an NFL running back?

Make of this what you will. YMMV.
   16. karlmagnus Posted: April 29, 2005 at 12:02 PM (#1297395)
Pretty clear evidence isn't it that WS overrates outfielders at the expense of C, 1B and 2B in the 1890s. It's not career length -- great peaks with short careers could be expected to feature prominently in such a list. It's ammunition for McGuire as much as or even more than Beckley, tough.
   17. Chris Cobb Posted: April 29, 2005 at 01:22 PM (#1297443)
Pretty clear evidence isn't it that WS overrates outfielders at the expense of C, 1B and 2B in the 1890s. It's not career length -- great peaks with short careers could be expected to feature prominently in such a list. It's ammunition for McGuire as much as or even more than Beckley, tough.

Not without an examination of playing time. If the 1890s game on the basepaths was as rough as we think, that may very well have a depressing effect on playing time for infielders, which would make it harder for them to break into the top tier of win shares. We _know_ that the lack of catching equipment depressed catcher playing time, so the fact that there are no catchers placing in the top 10 players in league during this decade is exactly what we would expect to see.

I think it's likely that infielders are underrated by win shares in this decade, and I adjust fielding win shares accordingly. But the mere fact that the majority of seasonal win-share leaders are outfielders is not clear evidence in itself of a systemic flaw.
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 29, 2005 at 01:32 PM (#1297452)
Pretty clear evidence isn't it that WS overrates outfielders at the expense of C, 1B and 2B in the 1890s.

There's pretty clear evidence that the stats that you use also overrate outfielders at the expense of other positions, too. Using hits as a barometer is going to underrate catchers and other infield positions. :-)
   19. karlmagnus Posted: April 29, 2005 at 01:53 PM (#1297464)
OPS+ isn't, though, and catcher hits corrected to a 130 game season will enable you to compare catchers with other players -- thus Bresnahan had a short career, whereas McGuire's 2800-odd adjusted hits is pretty damn impressive. And of course, when you get an infielder like the immportal Beckley who stacks up aginst outfielders!....:-)
   20. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 29, 2005 at 03:05 PM (#1297609)
OPS+ isn't, though, and catcher hits corrected to a 130 game season will enable you to compare catchers with other players -- thus Bresnahan had a short career, whereas McGuire's 2800-odd adjusted hits is pretty damn impressive.

But my point was that Win Shares is malleable in that regard, too. Even Bill Jmaes doesn't use straight Win Shares for his rankings.

BTW, I like McGuire, but Bresnahan's peak makes the Deacon's look very small.
   21. jimd Posted: April 29, 2005 at 06:04 PM (#1298066)

That's:
Catcher: 0
1st: 3 top 20s, 1 of which is a top 10
2nd: 7 and 1
3rd: 11 and 4
SS: 13 and 8
OF: 70 and 26
Pitcher: 80 and 54

The totals add up to 184 and 96 because of ties.

Note: the top 10's add up to 94.

WARP's distribution (1892-1900)
Catcher: 1 top 20s (McGuire in 1895)
1st: 5 top 20s, 2 of which are a top 10
2nd: 17 and 8
3rd: 18 and 8
SS: 26 and 16
OF: 74 and 35
Pitcher: 43 and 24

The totals add up to 184 and 93 because of ties.

By "arms, bats, glove"
Note: Pitchers should be a little less due to the 3-man rotation.
Win Shares:
Top 20: 80/73/31 expect: 54/65/65 Deltas: 26/ 8/-34 IF's getting the shaft
Top 10: 54/27/13 expect: 28/33/33 Deltas: 26/-6/-20 Top P's overrated

WARP:
Top 20: 43/79/62 expect: 54/65/65 Deltas: -11/14/-3
Top 10: 24/37/32 expect: 27/33/33 Deltas: -3/ 4/-1

There's no question that WARP provides a more "balanced" view ;-)
   22. Kelly in SD Posted: April 29, 2005 at 07:17 PM (#1298242)
Sorry about the addition error. It was a little late and I knew something was wrong, but I was too tired to see it. Thanks for the correction.
   23. Brent Posted: May 06, 2005 at 03:23 AM (#1315816)
Jack Fournier MLEs:

I've based these MLEs on the PCL statistics posted by PhillyBooster in # 5, 7, 8 and by Kelly from SD in # 11. (Where their data differ slightly for 1918, I have used those from PhillyBooster.)

For run environment, I estimated the Angels run environment as about 3.90 R/G for 1917 and about 4.15 R/G for 1919. These estimates are higher than the major league average by 8.7 percent for 1917 and 7.2 percent for 1919. I don't have team data for 1918 (it doesn't appear in the Reach Guide, presumably because the season shut down prematurely due to the War), so I assumed their run environment was 7.9 percent above the major league average (taking the average of the other two years). Relative to the rest of the PCL, Los Angeles was actually a lower scoring environment than average, but I guess the overall PCL average was pushed up by Salt Lake City.

The following MLEs represent a major league average offensive environment for these seasons. For 1918, Fournier also played 27 games in the American League, which are not reflected in these MLEs.

  Yr-Lg  Age   G  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR BB  AVG  OBA  SLG
1917-PCL  27 105 410 373 44 101 19  3  4 37 .271 .337 .370
1918-PCL  28 104 419 380 39 111 23  8  3 39 .291 .357 .418
1919-PCL  29 143 583 531 72 157 28 11  7 52 .296 .358 .429

If Dr. Chaleeko doesn't calculate win shares first, I will plan to do them this weekend.

First, though, I would like to finish calculating MLEs for Bob Johnson's PCL years, since he may be an important candidate for next week's ballot.
   24. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: May 11, 2005 at 07:19 PM (#1329756)
Sorry this has taken so long, I had to travel for my company last week, and I've been digging out this week...

JACK FOURNIER MLE OPS+ AND WS
Notes: I used what I think is David Foss's OPS+ technique, though I'd love for him to vet these numbers for accuracy. I used the AL for 1917 and 1919, NL for 1918 (per Chris Cobb's established protocol).


YR_____PA___OPS+___BWS____FWS___WS
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1917___410__117____10.0___1.2___11.2
1918___419__137____13.8___1.3___15.1*
1919___583__122____15.2___1.7___16.9

*Fournier also racked up 4.7 MLB WS in 1918, bumping his season total to 19.8.

-I think these are pretty reasonable estimates because when placing these within Fournier's surrounding seasons you get

1914 17
1915 28
1916 9
1917 11
1918 24*
1919 19*
1920 19
1921 24
*War year prorated to 154-game schedule.

This looks like a normal pattern of variation to me.

-For those who adjust to a 162 game schdule the rounded MLE WS would be

1917 12
1918 25
1919 20

METHODOLOGY NOTES: PAs and all calculations based on Brent's MLEs in post #23.

BATTING: In calculating OPS+, I used as the league context the numbers straight off of the bb-ref yearly listing of leaguewide batting totals by league. I assumed this included pitchers' batting statistics. To adjust for pitcher batting, I upped the league's OBA and SLG each by 3%. If bb-ref's lists already remove pitcher batting, then I'll be happy to go back and recalculate.

FIELDING: I based FWS on Fournier's career fielding WS divided by his estimated MLB career defensive innings and then applied to his estimated MLE defensive innings. In all cases, estimated defensive innings figured as

( PA / 4 ) * 8.5

OPS+ COMPS AND THEIR BWS/PA
1917: HR Baker (.0239); Tim Hendryx (.0233); Harry Hooper (.0270)

1918: Miguel Cueto (.0373); Bob Fisher (.0331); Hornsby (.0315); Jim Kelly (.0364); Al Wickland (.0351)

1919: Peckinpaugh (.0295); Sam Rice (.0253); Braggo Roth (.0238)

David, Chris, and Brent, I'd love some feedback to make sure I've got this right.
   25. Chris Cobb Posted: May 11, 2005 at 08:40 PM (#1330368)
If bb-ref's lists already remove pitcher batting, then I'll be happy to go back and recalculate.

They don't. You can find a very good approximation of these stats with pitchers removed at bb-ref by finding a team with a 100 batting park factor that year and looking at the special batting section of the playing record.
   26. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: May 12, 2005 at 01:15 PM (#1331700)
Just for the record. If my estimates are correct, this leads me to slide Fournier in just behind Sisler.

I know that FOGS will find this pill difficult to swallow, but luckily, I'm the only one that has to swallow it.
   27. Paul Wendt Posted: September 10, 2007 at 04:10 PM (#2518279)
120. mulder & scully Posted: September 10, 2007 at 01:46 AM (#2518008)
21. Jack Fournier (PHOM 1997): Noticed that I forgotten about him when he is given appropriate credit for 1917, 1918, and 1919. Remember he did have a 142 OPS+ for his career.

Top 10 in league in 1915, 1918 (minor league credit) 1921, 1923, 1924, 1925. Rank in league/majors: 5th t/7th t, (9th/17th), 5th t/14th t, 5th t/10th t, 3rd/4th, 3rd/6th.

Best first baseman in league: 1915, 1921, 1923, 1924, 1925. Best in majors: 1915, 1923, 1924, 1925.
I believe the MLEs for Fournier are too low because they give him OPS+ of 117, 137, and 122 at ages 27, 28, 29. Those would be his 8th/10th/and 11th highest OPS+ for his career. He may not have set career highs but I think they would have been more line with his career.


124. Tom D Posted: September 10, 2007 at 06:46 AM (#2518031)
<i>3. Tony Oliva: Pretty much at or near the top of the league for eight years and at or near the top of my backlog for much longer. I don’t think I can make the former statement about anyone else on this list.

Eight seasons in a row as a leading batter, maybe so. Fournier has 1922, Trosky has 1935. By OPS+ rather than batting average, however, Fournier and Trosky gain relative to Oliva, which makes them "very close" comps. Further, Fournier has mismanagement and WWI, Trosky has WWII, Oliva has injury.

Bresnahan and Chance have only six seasons as similar leading batters by OPS+, 1903-08, rather full seasons for both.

Trosky is 3-5 years younger than the others when he "arrives" as a leading major league batter. Oliva is 3-5 years older than the others when he "arrives" as more than a bit player: age 25.9-26.2 during his precipitous rookie season.
   28. Paul Wendt Posted: September 10, 2007 at 04:16 PM (#2518285)
That is two lines quotation of Tom D. (Celebrating my 100th anniversary by commenting on my 100th participant, something like that.)

3. Tony Oliva: Pretty much at or near the top of the league for eight years and at or near the top of my backlog for much longer. I don’t think I can make the former statement about anyone else on this list.

"Eight seasons in a row as a leading batter, maybe so. Fournier has 1922, Trosky has 1935. By OPS+ rather than batting average, however, Fournier and Trosky gain relative to Oliva, which makes them "very close" comps. Further, Fournier has mismanagement and WWI, Trosky has WWII, Oliva has injury."

The different explanations for their short careers (only eight good seasons, or Trosky 7-2/3) are supposed to contribute to the "very close".

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