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Wednesday, January 07, 2015

Manny Ramirez

Eligible in 2016

DL from MN Posted: January 07, 2015 at 02:11 PM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. karlmagnus Posted: January 07, 2015 at 04:33 PM (#4875432)
I hope very much he's a slam-dunk at HOM, because he looks very likely to be ripped off by HOF. Stylistically as well as by results, my favorite player. And I think his fielding was underrated (certainly by the stat boys) -- his 2008 trick of high-fiving a spectator in the middle of a play at the plate should be on every HOF highlight reel.
   2. Rally Posted: January 07, 2015 at 04:41 PM (#4875443)
I don't disqualify based on steroids, but Ramirez would not get my vote until Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire are already in.

Edit: HOF vote that is. Since the others are in the HOM, then Manny can go in too.
   3. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: January 07, 2015 at 04:59 PM (#4875472)
Why Big Mac over Manny? Just a fairly quick look Manny has the edge in most stats both slash and counting and an advantage of nearly 2500 PA (post-season included). McGwire gets a bit of a bump defensively largely because Manny manages to grade out even worse than Mac. McGwire was awarded a Gold Glove and my recollection is that pre-back injury he was actually considered a pretty adept first baseman, particularly on scoops.

BBRef has Manny a bit ahead in WAR while FanGraphs has them even. Looking at the individual seasons there isn't a lot to say McGwire deserves a lot of "great year" credit ahead of Manny. Mac's got a bit of an edge in the top seasons but not by enough to feel conclusive.

I'm not saying Manny is meaningfully ahead of McGwire either. I just am curious the argument for McGwire as being clearly ahead of Manny to be referenced with Bonds and Clemens who obviously are leaps and bounds ahead of both.
   4. Chris Fluit Posted: January 08, 2015 at 10:05 AM (#4875820)
Manny is number two on my ballot right now behind Griffey, though it's possible one or two of the returning pitchers (Mussina and Smoltz) could finish ahead of him. He's clearly ahead of Sheffield for me and that's the closest comparison on this ballot.
   5. Chris Fluit Posted: January 08, 2015 at 10:14 AM (#4875828)
I wonder if Manny will receive any one-year boycotts from voters who view his failed tests and suspensions as categorically different from the accusations and innuendo that dog other players. The anti-PED crowd pretty much dropped out of this project after McGwire was inducted in spite of their objections, but there may be a few voters left with a more-nuanced view who would vote Bonds or Bagwell on the first year but boycott Manny until year two. Please note I'm not advocating for anyone to boycott. I'm simply curious as to whether anyone will, as permitted by our charter.
   6. Rally Posted: January 08, 2015 at 10:25 AM (#4875837)
Why Big Mac over Manny?


I see them about even, though if they came on the ballot the same year, and I had to make an either/or, I'd take the briefly held HR record as a tiebreaker. As things are, McGwire should go in first because he's been on the ballot longer. If there was ever a change in how the HOF sees the steroid candidates, I'd like to see Manny wait his turn.
   7. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: January 08, 2015 at 10:29 AM (#4875840)
That makes sense.
   8. Booey Posted: January 08, 2015 at 01:07 PM (#4876017)
Manny is number two on my ballot right now behind Griffey


Wait, why is Manny eligible in 2016 with Griffey? Shouldn't he be eligible in 2017 with Pudge and Vlad?
   9. Rally Posted: January 08, 2015 at 01:32 PM (#4876052)
Good point Booey. Assuming HOM follows the same rules as HOF. 1 for 17 for the 2011 Rays.
   10. DL from MN Posted: January 08, 2015 at 01:48 PM (#4876072)
HoM rules are to ignore "token" appearances. I'd have to look it up but I think it's anything under 50 plate appearances or 20 IP.
   11. dlf Posted: January 08, 2015 at 02:35 PM (#4876124)
I wonder if Manny will receive any one-year boycotts from voters who view his failed tests and suspensions ...


From the HOF perspective, I think that there is a clear difference between using female fertility drugs before they were banned versus after they were banned. The suspension is different than BALCO, Mitchell, etc. and different even than the 2003 pre-testing that supposedly tripped up Sosa. I suspect some HOF voters will place Braun, Manny, ARod in a different basket than Bonds, McGwire, et al.
   12. DanG Posted: January 08, 2015 at 02:35 PM (#4876125)
It's less than 10 G or 5 G pitched.
Or if they've already missed a year the retirement clock does not restart unless they play significantly. This is subjective, which is why Moyer may or may not be considered eligible in 2016.
   13. Booey Posted: January 08, 2015 at 02:52 PM (#4876146)
It's less than 10 G or 5 G pitched.


Gotcha, thanks! Didn't know that.
   14. A triple short of the cycle Posted: January 28, 2015 at 06:10 PM (#4889407)
McGwire was awarded a Gold Glove and my recollection is that pre-back injury he was actually considered a pretty adept first baseman, particularly on scoops.

I don't know when his back injury was, but when I watched him in Oakland and he was comically awkward lumbering fruitlessly after pop ups in the vast expanse of foul ground at the Coliseum.
   15. theboyqueen Posted: January 28, 2015 at 07:31 PM (#4889447)
He had great hands so he was good with scoops and snaring tough grounders that didn't test his range much. The bottom half was always a problem though.
   16. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2015 at 10:55 AM (#5118442)
bump
   17. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 22, 2015 at 11:08 AM (#5118459)
As a new voter, I just want to clarify. It is acceptable to boycott Manny Ramirez for one year for his multiple suspensions associated with PED use, correct? I haven't decided whether I will do so or not, but just wanted to be sure I understood the rule correctly. As a further clarification, is the allowable one-year boycott thing an open-ended "character" clause for whatever reason the voter might like or is it limited to specific issues (I have nothing and nobody in mind with the question; again, I just want to understand the rule correctly).
   18. Chris Fluit Posted: December 22, 2015 at 11:21 AM (#5118475)
As a new voter, I just want to clarify. It is acceptable to boycott Manny Ramirez for one year for his multiple suspensions associated with PED use, correct?

Yes.
As a further clarification, is the allowable one-year boycott thing an open-ended "character" clause for whatever reason the voter might like or is it limited to specific issues (I have nothing and nobody in mind with the question; again, I just want to understand the rule correctly).

It's somewhat open-ended, though the voter should be able to specify a reason/incident beyond "I don't like him." The discussion example was Roberto Alomar's spitting incident against umpire John Hirschbeck. A voter could have boycotted Alomar for one year for that incident though, per my recollection, no one chose to do so.

EDITED for grammar.
   19. Chris Fluit Posted: December 22, 2015 at 11:43 AM (#5118500)
For further clarification, only 5 players have been the recipients to date of one-year boycotts:
Cap Anson was boycotted by 6 voters for his role in building the color line, dropping him from first to second in 1903 though not delaying his induction
Shoeless Joe Jackson was boycotted by half of the voters (23 of 46) delaying his induction from 1926 to '27
Pete Rose was boycotted by 16 voters, allowing Bobby Grich to sneak ahead of him, and delaying his induction from 1992 to '93
Mark McGwire was boycotted by 2 voters though it did not effect McGwire's standing or induction
Rafael Palmeiro received up to 9 protest votes (some voters may have left him out of their top 15 for other reasons) though it probably didn't impact his induction as he would have finished fourth anyway
   20. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 22, 2015 at 11:53 AM (#5118519)
Thank you very much, Chris!

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