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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, December 23, 2014

Mock 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot

2015 BBTF Hall of Fame Ballot

IMPORTANT: Please read:

This election should follow BBWAA rules, not Hall of Merit rules. However, we hope to see only players that each voter feels belong on their ballots. Leaving 1st-year candidates off your ballot is also frowned upon. IOW, we would like to see an absence of some of the silliness that permeates Hall of Fame voting by the writers.

The election will end Monday on Jan 5th 2015 (4 PM EST). Results will be posted a short time later.

Please don’t post any vote tallies on this thread.

Here are some of the rules by the BBWAA that pertain to our electorate:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.
D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.
E. Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.
B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Here are the players, in alphabetical order:

Rich Aurillia
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Aaron Boone
Tony Clark
Roger Clemens
Carlos Delgado
Jermaine Dye
Darin Erstad
Cliff Floyd
Nomar Garciaparra
Brian Giles
Tom Gordon
Eddie Guardado
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Pedro Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Troy Percival
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Jason Schmidt
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

DL from MN Posted: December 23, 2014 at 10:33 AM | 113 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: December 23, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4867412)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Alan Trammell

First cut was 18 players. Had to drop Sosa, Sheffield, Kent, Edgar, Biggio, Walker, McGwire and Mussina. Everyone on this ballot is above a 50th percentile Hall of Famer. FWIW - Mussina is also above the 50th percentile.

BTW speaking from experience alphabetized ballots are a big help to the ballot counter
   2. DL from MN Posted: December 23, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4867415)
Do I have volunteer ballot counters?
   3. BDC Posted: December 23, 2014 at 10:59 AM (#4867422)
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell

In addition, I think that Bagwell, Mussina, Raines, Smoltz, and Walker are clear Hall of Famers. I tend to lean a little more toward signature accomplishments, including postseason, in prioritizing, but the cutoff at ten is fairly arbitrary, as I'm sure a lot of us will find.
   4. HGM Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4867432)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling

--------

If the ballot was a simple yes/no, I'd also vote for:

Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Gary Sheffield
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4867435)

This is the most significant line

B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election.
   6. dlf Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4867437)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P. Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Trammell

Plus a bunch of others if the cap was eliminated
   7. The District Attorney Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4867438)
DL, I'll help count.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   8. Chris Fluit Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4867445)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P. Martinez
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Sosa
Trammell

if I had room
Biggio
Delgado
Kent
E. Martinez
Mussina
Schilling
Sheffield
Smoltz
Walker
   9. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4867447)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

I voted this straight up. In the real world, err BBWAA world which is more like the surreal world, I might consider voting with strategery. Had I had more than 10 spots, I would add Trammell, Edgar, Biggio, Sosa, Mac, Sheffield, and Walker.
   10. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4867451)
In alphabetical order:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Alan Trammell

With a no-limit ballot I'd also add Edgar Martinez, McGriff, Mussina, Sosa and Walker.
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4867453)
It might be interesting for the ballot counter to also make a separate tally of all the "if I had no limit" votes, especially since the balloting has just begun.
   12. Blackadder Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:28 AM (#4867454)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

There are six obvious choices (Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Johnson, Martinez, and Piazza), and I'm pretty comfortable including Schilling. The other three slots are very hard. If this were a BBWAA ballot I would probably find room for Biggio.
   13. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4867461)
Bagwell
Biggio
Johnson
P. Martinez
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Smoltz
Trammell
Walker

If I had twelve votes the next two would be McGriff and Mussina. A big Hall guy, I see more than 20 qualified candidates. I've mocked for Lee Smith in the past, but it looks like the "saves leader" narrative has run out and the vote is useful elsewhere. I'm sure all the PED controversy players, including Palmeiro, will go in reasonably soon, along with Pete and Shoeless Joe. Nonetheless, I think it's entirely reasonable to consider PED in relation to the character clauses (though I support rewriting those clauses). The vote for Walker includes some measure of strategy to keep him on life support. The campaign for Raines should focus on three things - runs, runs scored, and how Rickey's runs aren't a fair comparison.


   14. DL from MN Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4867463)
Most of the holdovers have been vetted by the electors already reaching 75% on a previous ballot or falling short.
   15. alilisd Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4867467)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
E. Martinez
P. Martinez
Pizza
Raines
Trammell
   16. pikepredator Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4867489)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

Every time I go through this exercise I end up with more or less the same list of candidates, but the process of whittling off players like Trammel and Walker is always painful. Mussina and Sosa are two polar opposites - Mussina has the resume but no flair, and Sosa is the ultimate "felt like a HOFer at the time" guy. Those four are my 11-14 were there no ballot cap.

McGriff, E Martinez, and Biggio are right below on my "out" line but it wouldn't bother me if they got in. Kent and Sheffield are a bit below them, and I may well undervalue Kent compared to other HOF 2Bmen.
   17. Srul Itza Posted: December 23, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4867491)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   18. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: December 23, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4867497)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
   19. JJ1986 Posted: December 23, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4867499)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell

After that, I have to decide who to vote for. I have Raines, Biggio, Walker and Trammell all very close together, and I'd vote for Edgar, McGwire and Sheffield too.

Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker

I have Schilling and Smoltz as the 7th and 8th best players. I think Mussina is a bit lower, but I'll put him in because it's hard to differentiate the position players. Finally, I'll choose Walker because he had the best seasons of my 4 options.

In the real election, I'd definitely vote Biggio (to put him over) and Walker (to make sure he stays on) and leave off Smoltz (who is getting in anyway). I'd probably also throw a vote to Raines.
   20. toratoratora Posted: December 23, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4867505)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
McG
Moose
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

   21. Monty Posted: December 23, 2014 at 12:46 PM (#4867546)
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

(with Smoltz and Mussina at the top of the five or six more guys I wish I could fit in)
   22. Rob_Wood Posted: December 23, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4867555)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
   23. ajnrules Posted: December 23, 2014 at 01:16 PM (#4867573)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

Players I would have loved to include include Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell and Larry Walker, plus consideration for Kent, Mattingly, McGriff, Sheffield and Sosa.
   24. rawagman Posted: December 23, 2014 at 01:18 PM (#4867575)
It hurt to leave a few guys off, but 10 is still the limit.

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
   25. Tiboreau Posted: December 23, 2014 at 01:18 PM (#4867576)
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Mussina
John Smoltz
Larry Walker
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   26. GregD Posted: December 23, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4867585)
In alpha order:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

The last couple of cuts were brutal. I can see good arguments for as many as 11 other players, though my line might be around 18-19.
   27. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 23, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4867590)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P. Martinez
McGwire
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
   28. Mark Donelson Posted: December 23, 2014 at 02:14 PM (#4867630)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling

And yes, lots more if there were room.
   29. cookiedabookie Posted: December 23, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4867634)
I believe players should be evaluated based on how they performed compared to past players, but especially how they rank among players at their own position. My ballot (ranking in parenthesis):

Bagwell (6)
Bonds (1)
Clemens (2)
Johnson (3)
Martinez (4)
Mussina (7)
Piazza (5)
Raines (9)
Schilling (8)
Walker (10)

Killed me to leave off Smoltz, Trammell, and Biggio - they are all no-doubters for me.

Rest of players I think could be argued for (my cutoff is somewhere in the Kent/Sosa range):
11. Smoltz
12. Trammell
13. Biggio
14. McGwire
15. Martinez
16. Jeff Kent
17. Sammy Sosa
18. Lee Smith
19. Gary Sheffield
20. Nomar Garciaparra
21. Fred McGriff
   30. Ivo Shandor Posted: December 23, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4867662)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Edgar Martinez
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Gary Sheffield
   31. JoeC Posted: December 23, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4867681)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Larry Walker

Also deserving votes: Biggio, Raines, Trammell, McGwire, and Edgar. If enough of those guys got in I'd have to think hard about Sheffield and Sosa, too. Starting to get more confident about a "no" on Kent and McGriff. Wish Lofton, Palmeiro, and Kevin Brown were still around to put up against this crowd.
   32. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: December 23, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4867689)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
   33. mex4173 Posted: December 23, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4867694)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Would have voted Biggio as a BBWAA member to try to clear him from the ballot. Biggio, Raines, Mcgwire, Sheffield, Mussina also deserving for sure, perhaps E. Martinez and Sosa as well, leaning towards "no" on Kent.
   34. Harvest Posted: December 23, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4867697)
Ballot:
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Larry Walker

If I was an actual voter, I would probably leave off Bonds and Clemens because there's no way either of them will be elected by the BBWAA, and put Biggio and Trammell in their places. There are lots more guys I view as worthy that I just didn't have room for, but you knew that already.
   35. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 23, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4867701)
Jack Morris.

Someone had to do it.

Ballot
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Tim Raines

Would Also Vote For
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Would Strongly Consider
Jeff Kent
Gary Sheffield
Sammy Sosa
   36. Booey Posted: December 23, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4867713)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Sammy Sosa

Also if I could (in no particular order): Smoltz, Schilling, Mussina, Trammell, Sheffield, Walker, Edgar, Kent, and McGriff.

I'm sure all the PED controversy players, including Palmeiro, will go in reasonably soon, along with Pete and Shoeless Joe.


Just curious, what makes you think so? Shoeless Joe for one has been waiting a LONG time...
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: December 23, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4867732)


Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
John Smoltz
Alan Trammell

   38. LargeBill Posted: December 23, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4867737)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
John Smoltz
   39. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 23, 2014 at 04:30 PM (#4867746)
Bagwell
Biggio
Johnson
Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Smoltz
Trammell
   40. EddieA Posted: December 23, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4867751)
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P. Martinez
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Sosa
   41. alilisd Posted: December 23, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4867760)
My ballot in #15 is a vote for Piazza, not pizza.
   42. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 23, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4867763)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

Smoltz (postseason) and Raines (missed playing time for strikes and collusion) are my final adds. I'm sure it will shock everyone to hear that I too would vote for a bunch more guys if allowed - Walker, Biggio, Trammell, Edgar, McGwire, Sheffield, and Sosa, at least, and I'd carefully consider arguments for Kent, McGriff, Giles, and Nomar.
   43. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 23, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4867765)
Also, I can serve as a backup ballot counter.
   44. The District Attorney Posted: December 23, 2014 at 05:09 PM (#4867766)
My ballot in #15 is a vote for Piazza, not pizza.
Are you sure? You can be honest.

BTW, it's probably safe to assume that votes for "Martinez" will be counted as votes for Pedro and you don't have to re-post, but nevertheless, folks should probably specify which Martinez. ;-)
   45. Fridas Boss Posted: December 23, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4867772)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
   46. booond Posted: December 23, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4867779)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

If allowed more room:
Biggio
Edgar
Smoltz
Walker

Small Hall person and had a real problem separating Mussina/Smoltz. I'd like to see both in but they were #10/#11 for me.
   47. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 23, 2014 at 07:06 PM (#4867800)
My philosophy:

1. The quality of play has gone up, and there are more teams and more players, so there are more chances for players to post long careers. For those reasons I don't concern myself with past standards for HoFers; I look primarily at where a player stands against his peers. If that means that the baseline for a HoFer goes up, so be it.
2. You have to have a reasonable argument for being at the top of the food chain; just accumulating counting stats isn't good enough. Smoltz and Mussina were very good pitchers for a long time, but they're a long way behind Pedro and Randy.
3. I don't assume that any player whose career covered the time frame from about the mid-1990s on was free of PEDs. I also don't assume any performance boost because of them. But I do assume that PEDs helped players stay on the field longer - and thus I discount players who probably wouldn't have been considered if they'd lost playing time two or three years earlier in their careers, or had their career end prematurely.

Ballot:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith

-- MWE
   48. Morty Causa Posted: December 23, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4867802)
1. The quality of play has gone up, and there are more teams and more players, so there are more chances for players to post long careers. For those reasons I don't concern myself with past standards for HoFers; I look primarily at where a player stands against his peers. If that means that the baseline for a HoFer goes up, so be it.
2. You have to have a reasonable argument for being at the top of the food chain; just accumulating counting stats isn't good enough. Smoltz and Mussina were very good pitchers for a long time, but they're a long way behind Pedro and Randy.


Amen, Rev, let it walk.
   49. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: December 23, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4867807)
BTW, it's probably safe to assume that votes for "Martinez" will be counted as votes for Pedro and you don't have to re-post, but nevertheless, folks should probably specify which Martinez. ;-)

Along similar lines, I am assuming that the vote for "McG" in 20 is for McGwire, not McGriff, unless I'm told otherwise.
   50. John DiFool2 Posted: December 23, 2014 at 08:19 PM (#4867827)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Craig Biggio
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 23, 2014 at 09:09 PM (#4867849)
(47) I'm sorry, but that's a terrible ballot. To not vote 10 when there are 15+ qualified HoFers is bad enough, but to include Lee Smith is an insult to the hundreds of players better than him.

To think Lee Smith is better than Mussina, Schilling or Smoltz, requires quantities of alcohol I'd rather not contemplate.
   52. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 23, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4867871)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Alan Trammell

If I were actually voting, I'd consider dropping Bonds and Clemens this year and adding Mussina and Biggio as a strategic vote.

   53. Baldrick Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:22 PM (#4867904)
Same ballot as a couple other folks here:

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Larry Walker

The only really tough call is taking Smoltz/Walker over Trammell and maybe Raines. They're all pretty close. As with many others, I would elect way more than 10 if I could.
   54. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:38 PM (#4867911)
Biggio
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
Martinez - E.
Martinez - P.
Piazza
Raines
Schilling

Though he didn't play in the field, watching Edgar rake would've been like watching Renoir paint.
   55. Squash Posted: December 23, 2014 at 11:45 PM (#4867914)
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Jeff Bagwell
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
John Smoltz
   56. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: December 24, 2014 at 12:11 AM (#4867923)
I have to say I'm flat shocked by the number of people here voting for Smoltz over the clearly superior Mussina.

EDIT:

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith


This ballot would be totally irresponsible if this vote had any consequences. It's also 100% unsupported by the squishy points listed above it. Poor show.
   57. Squash Posted: December 24, 2014 at 12:28 AM (#4867925)
1. The quality of play has gone up, and there are more teams and more players, so there are more chances for players to post long careers. For those reasons I don't concern myself with past standards for HoFers; I look primarily at where a player stands against his peers. If that means that the baseline for a HoFer goes up, so be it.
2. You have to have a reasonable argument for being at the top of the food chain; just accumulating counting stats isn't good enough. Smoltz and Mussina were very good pitchers for a long time, but they're a long way behind Pedro and Randy.


That seems like the living definition of Lee Smith - just among pitchers I'd be interested to see the reasoning behind voting for him but not guys like Mussina/Smoltz and particularly Schilling, who would seem to fit your guidelines to a T (i.e. massive peak guy with a reasonable amount of career to boot).

In addition man, if you open to the door to Smith there's a blizzard of other relievers who should come in with him.
   58. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 24, 2014 at 01:02 AM (#4867933)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Edgar Martinez
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
   59. BrianBrianson Posted: December 24, 2014 at 05:03 AM (#4867943)
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

I think if I had to do this in real life, I'd have to just check the 18 or 19 names and send it in, let the BBWAA do what they like. Or set a bag of dog poo on fire and ring their doorbell. Cutting Clemens was like cutting my own ####### heart out. A sin against the game.

And yes, I obviously voted for the 10 worthy candidates I felt had the most need. If you don't like it, you all are the fake BBWAA, fake change the rules for the fake election.
   60. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 24, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4867967)
I think I've seen Mike say before that Smith is under-appreciated, partially because he pitched in an era where the usage of a "closer" was changing from multi inning to one inning guy. I'm a big hall guy, so given an unlimited number of voting slots, he'd have one of mine - I remember him as the Jim Rice "da fear" of relief pitchers during his era and he's not that much different at a cursory look than say, Rich Gossage. That said, I see 17-18 guys I could potentially vote for and Smith would be somewhere near the bottom among those.

And I agree with those that are saying that Smith doesn't fit the criteria that Mike states he uses...
   61. Kiko Sakata Posted: December 24, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4868023)
I actually like Brian's suggestion in #59 to just check as many boxes as I wanted to and let the BBWAA vote-counters figure out what to do with it. That said, here's my 10 as if I were actually a voting member of the BBWAA and my vote mattered. So, game theory, because with a ballot cap any full-ballot vote involves game theory even if you want to pretend that your "vote for the 10 best" isn't.

Alphabetically:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Alan Trammell

In the absence of a ballot cap, I would also vote for at least Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sheffield, and Walker, and am on the fence with respect to Kent, E. Martinez, and Sosa. If I was feeling especially generous, in the absence of a ballot cap, I might be willing to consider Delgado, Garciaparra, McGriff, and Smith.
   62. alilisd Posted: December 24, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4868064)
60: It would have to be an awfully cursory look to see Smith as not much different than Gossage.
   63. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: December 24, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4868073)
I would vote for these 17 if allowed.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Brian Giles
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Since I have to limit it to 10 ...

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Brian Giles
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Gary Sheffield
Alan Trammell

I left off Pedro and RJ since I'm sure they'll get elected anyway. I dropped Smoltz and Schilling because I like Mussina better and don't think they'll be dropped off the ballot. I like Giles a little better than Sosa, Walker and McGwire and same thing, wouldn't expect them to drop off the ballot.
   64. Where have you gone Brady Anderson? Posted: December 24, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4868104)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

Other players I would have voted for with no limit: Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Curt Schilling, Gary Sheffield, Larry Walker

Borderline players I might vote for but aren't in my top ten, so I don't need to make a final decision: Jeff Kent, Brian Giles, Fred McGriff, Sammy Sosa

Player I wanted to vote for because he was one of my favorites, but I can't because he, sadly, wasn't quite good enough: Nomar Garciaparra
   65. Blastin Posted: December 24, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4868107)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P. Martinez
Mussina
Piazza
Raines
Smoltz
   66. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 24, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4868128)
I'm definitely voting strategically. Biggio is near the bottom of my ballot, I like Walker more, and Smoltz is about equal with Moose but I thought he was more likely to get in and I want us to elect more than the BBWAA.

If I counted right, we have 51 ballots so far. Of those, 50 are full ballots.
   67. alilisd Posted: December 24, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4868149)
DA, ordinarily my vote would be for pizza, but in this case it truly is for Piazza.
   68. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 24, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4868164)
My ten are:

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P.Martinez
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Smoltz

If I had an unlimited ballot:

E.Martinez
Mussina
Schilling
Sheffield
Sosa
Trammell
Walker
   69. EricC Posted: December 24, 2014 at 07:31 PM (#4868189)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
Martinez, Pedro
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Trammell
   70. lieiam Posted: December 25, 2014 at 12:59 PM (#4868283)
FYI- system is still glitchy regarding allowing you to post or not.
Anyway, after a few tries I am apparently going to be able to post this.
I'd vote for more if I could... but here's my ten:

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
John Smoltz
   71. Bourbon Samurai, what price fettucine? Posted: December 25, 2014 at 06:54 PM (#4868345)
Roughly in order

Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
Pedro
Piazza
Schilling
smoltz
McGwire
Biggio
Mussina

   72. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 25, 2014 at 07:29 PM (#4868349)
Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Trammell

If I had unlimited votes, I would also vote for:
Mussina
Smoltz
   73. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: December 25, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4868368)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza

Mike Mussina
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell

Just out: Biggio and Smoltz.
   74. Moeball Posted: December 26, 2014 at 11:15 AM (#4868459)
OK, here's my take on the BBWAA ballot - I guess I believe in picking who I think were the 10 best players first, so here's my top 10:

Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Hey, that gives me a catcher, first baseman, shortstop, left fielder and right fielder along with an outstanding 5-man starting rotation.

If I were allowed to vote for more than 10 I might even be able to complete a starting lineup with the additional players I would vote for, all of whom I think were good enough for HOF enshrinement:

Craig Biggio gives me a second baseman
Edgar Martinez gives me a DH
Mark McGwire - ok, a backup first baseman or DH
Tim Raines - can play some CF as well as LF
Gary Sheffield - ok, he was a lousy defensive 3B, but he still could fill in my last position of the lineup
John Smoltz - he can fill in as an occasional starter on this team and can be the closer as well

So, that's 16 players that I think could be added to the HOF that wouldn't be lowering the quality of players inducted at all. We've got All-Time Greats down to very solid nominees here on this team.








   75. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 26, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4868469)
Yes!...was able to login, although have had ongoing issues over the past week...
This stacked ballot makes me thankfully to be a member of the Hall of Merit...righting Cooperstown's wrongs since 2002!

19 worthy candidates: Commish Joe D's list plus #18 Edgar and the only borderliner I listed #19 Kent:

Although imperfect, check out Adam's site hallofstats.com, another great resource for baseball history - I have included his BBREF score below:
Jeff Bagwell - 163
Craig Biggio - 126 - poor sabermetric defensive ratings across the board, particularly DRA
Barry Bonds - 359!!!!
Roger Clemens - 291!!!
Brian Giles - 97 - Dan's replacement levels + DRA easily clear the bar for him, could deserve MLE credit too
Randy Johnson - 217!!
Jeff Kent - 102
Edgar Martinez - 134 - outstanding with BBREF, borderline using Dan R's WAR, DRA doesn't move the needle
Pedro Martinez - 185!
Mark McGwire - 123 - aided by Dan's R's peaky system and favorable DRA
Mike Mussina - 162
Mike Piazza - 145 - unadjusted for position
Tim Raines - 127 - excellent Dan R brought down a bit with DRA
Curt Schilling - 170
Gary Sheffield - 114
John Smoltz - 135 - cut in favor of Sheffield, immensely worthy and I could be underrating him
Sammy Sosa - 115 - valuing great 2001 and good to excellent defense (DRA too) makes him a fine candidate
Alan Trammell - 141
Larry Walker - 150 - poor DRA defense drops him

Top 10: All I can say is wow...all-time greats, top 1/3 of Hall of Fame/Merit:
Jeff Bagwell - 163
Barry Bonds - 359!!!!
Roger Clemens - 291!!!
Randy Johnson - 217!!
Pedro Martinez - 185!
Mike Mussina - 162
Mike Piazza - 145
Curt Schilling - 170
Above the median hall line:
Gary Sheffield - 114 - horrible BBREF defense, adequate/mediocre by DRA jives more with his athletic background SS/3B upbringing.
Alan Trammell - 141 - could drop from Top 10 with DRA values below Smoltz.
   76. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 26, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4868475)
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

I would like to vote for a bunch more, but ... oh well. And Raines is slightly out of order (not in my top 10), but I have always liked him and think he is worthy so I bumped him up. So sue me.
   77. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 26, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4868483)
lieiam - no Piazza?

Mike Emeigh - you addressed Schilling/Mussina/Smoltz, no Bagwell?
And where do you place Hoffman/Wagner when they come on the ballot next year/can you please share your knowledge for these guys so that we can copy the information over to the Hall of Merit thread?

Howie Menckel - who were your last two guys that beat out Schilling/Mussina?

Mark Donelson - good to see you, but we miss you at the Hall of Merit...Garciaparra has some support and could use you too!

Chris Fluit - same question as Howie?

DL from MN - who got the last spot in favor of Mussina?
   78. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: December 26, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4868503)
Actual votes:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

Would vote for if I could:

Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Mark McGwire
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Larry Walker

And a couple-three other guys, probably.
   79. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 28, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4869083)
My strategic ballot.

Bonds
Clemens
Raines
Biggio
Bagwell
Trammell
Schilling
Mussina
Smoltz
Piazza

Of course Johnson and Martinez belong. So do Mac, Sammy, Sheff, Edgar, Walker, and probably Kent and McGriff. I left off the big 2 in order to support others more in need. If that offends the sensibilities of the moderators, feel free to delete/ignore my ballot. i don't know if I would vote that way if I had an actual ballot, but I'd sure like to.
   80. Baldrick Posted: December 28, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4869103)
Misirlou, who is the target of your strategy? Are you imagining your vote vis a vis the BBWAA or the BBTF electorate? Because around here, Bagwell doesn't need your vote. Neither does Piazza. Or Bonds and Clemens for that matter.

Not objecting to the strategy. Just wondering how you imagine the vote interacting.
   81. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 28, 2014 at 06:54 PM (#4869108)
BBWAA. It's how i'd like to think I'd vote if I had one.
   82. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 28, 2014 at 07:45 PM (#4869124)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Randy Johnson
Edgar Martinez
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Larry Walker

Mussina and Trammell would be the other two I would consider. But no space for them.
   83. lieiam Posted: December 29, 2014 at 01:13 AM (#4869184)
@bleed the freak (re: post 77 and my lack of Piazza).
Yes, Piazza ended up coming in 12th in my system (also behind Biggio).
I was surprised by that and it very well could be serious evidence of a problems with my system... but I simply posted the top 10 I got with that method.
   84. Scott A Posted: December 29, 2014 at 01:18 AM (#4869185)
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mike Mussina
Edgar Martinez
Larry Walker
Craig Biggio

(I'd unhesutatingly vote for the non-borderline 'roiders - Bonds and Clemens - but given that here's such a bad backlog, they can wait at the back of the line while I make room for the guys who didn't provably cheat.)
   85. Rusty Priske Posted: December 29, 2014 at 10:15 AM (#4869233)

Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Johnson
P.Martinez
Mussina
Schilling
Smoltz
Trammell
Walker



(The ones I WOULD vote for if I could are Raines, E.Martinez, Biggio)
   86. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 29, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4869389)
This is the ballot I submitted at another mock HoF election, so I'll stick with it.

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

Walker's a strategic vote - I'd want to be sure he doesn't fall off the ballot. He feels like the most vulnerable to me of anyone who I think is definitely HoF-worthy. Otherwise, I guess it would go to Schilling, but it doesn't make that much of a difference to him this year.
   87. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 29, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4869586)
Wanted to bump up the hot topic list so that people who haven't seen this have a chance to add their voice.
   88. slothinator Posted: December 29, 2014 at 06:44 PM (#4869615)
Had to leave off a few I'd otherwise vote for, but here it goes:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
   89. DL from MN Posted: December 30, 2014 at 08:54 AM (#4869757)
Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 30, 2014 at 08:48 AM (#4869754)
not that anyone likely cares but if i had to vote this would be my ballot

mussina and schilling to me are even but i would be adding schilling as soon as one of these guys cleared

gonna help the old-timers of trammell and raines because they earned it and time is running out

no mcgwire not because of peds but that he was the most one-dimensional of the non-pitcher candidates and i like players who can several things.

larry walker is right there. walker to me is a modern dick allen in that he pretty much defines the borderline candidate.

R. Johnson
P. Martinez
Biggio
Piazza
Bagwell
Raines
Bonds
Clemens
Mussina
Trammell
   90. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 30, 2014 at 09:00 AM (#4869762)
thanks dl

suspect i am on an island when it comes to smoltz. guy is borderline to me even with the good post season work mostly because i think closers post 1995 had it on easy street.

but if this be the will of the people so be it
   91. Bleed the Freak Posted: December 30, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4869804)
Good comments Harvey, I have Smoltz ~11th, and prefer old-timers Trammell and Raines.
   92. McCoy Posted: December 30, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4869822)
Bonds
Biggio
Piazza
Clemens
P. Martinez
Sosa
R Johnson
   93. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 30, 2014 at 10:46 AM (#4869830)
sosa is such a weird case. when he couldn't hit he was a pretty good outfielder and baserunner. when he started to hit his defense and baserunning tanked. there is so much more to like about the 1996 sosa than the 2001 sosa.

but i think his lifetime war has him pegged about right.
   94. Jose Bautista Bobblehead Day Posted: December 30, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4869888)
Ballot:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz
Gary Sheffield

Would also vote for:
Tim Raines
Larry Walker
Edgar Martinez
Sammy Sosa
Brian Giles
Craig Biggio
Jeff Kent
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
   95. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 30, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4869889)
I assume Sosa is a pure Cubs homer vote there, McCoy?
   96. craigamazing Posted: December 30, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4869943)
Yes, Of Course

1. B. Bonds
2. R. Clemens
3. R. Johnson
4. P. Martinez
5. J. Bagwell
6. C. Schilling
7. J. Smoltz
8. M. Mussina
9. T. Raines
10. A. Trammell

Definitely would also vote for:

11. C. Biggio
12. L. Walker
13. E. Martinez

Wavering...and ultimately no for now

14. M. McGwire
15. G Sheffield
16. J. Kent
17. S. Sosa

Yes, In Memorium

Lou Whitaker
Kevin Brown

   97. MBL Posted: December 31, 2014 at 07:56 AM (#4870372)
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Edgar Martinez
Pedro Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   98. Al Peterson Posted: January 02, 2015 at 09:16 AM (#4871613)
Only 10, the last cuts are all worthy of election but the rules are the rules...

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
   99. jdennis Posted: January 02, 2015 at 09:41 PM (#4871946)
Bonds
Clemens
Randy
Pedro
Smoltz
Schilling
Mussina
Biggio
Bagwell
Piazza
   100. homerwannabee Posted: January 03, 2015 at 10:53 AM (#4872050)
Pedro Martinez
Randy Johnson
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Craig Biggio
John Smoltz
Fred McGriff
Jeff Kent
Alan Trammall
Curt Schilling

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