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Monday, November 13, 2017

Mock 2018 Modern Baseball Committee Hall of Fame Ballot

Mock 2018 Today’s Game Hall of Fame Ballot

Candidates

Steve Garvey
Tommy John
Don Mattingly
Marvin Miller
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell

See full descriptions here

Vote for zero to four candidates

Voting will end Monday 11/20/2017 at 1pm EST

DL from MN Posted: November 13, 2017 at 10:27 AM | 76 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: November 13, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5574941)
FYI - I have the spreadsheet set up in the order above so it is MUCH easier to tally if the votes are alphabetical by last name

Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
   2. BDC Posted: November 13, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5574957)
Trammell
   3. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 13, 2017 at 10:50 AM (#5574962)
Thank you for putting this ballot together, DL. The actual name of the committee is the Modern Baseball Era Committee --the Today’s Game Era Committee vote was held last December. I don't guess it's a necessity that you change it though
   4. Baldrick Posted: November 13, 2017 at 11:24 AM (#5574995)
My vote is what I think may be the BBTF consensus pick:

Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
   5. dlf Posted: November 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM (#5575004)
Alphabetically

Murphy
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell

I would have voted for Miller (and dropped Tiant) but he pretty expressly said he did not want to be inducted posthumously and I'm willing to defer to his desires for my ballot for our imaginary award.
   6. ajnrules Posted: November 13, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5575094)
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
   7. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: November 13, 2017 at 12:53 PM (#5575103)
Miller
Trammell

That's it; I'm leaving the other two spots blank.
   8. Man o' Schwar Posted: November 13, 2017 at 12:58 PM (#5575107)
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2017 at 12:58 PM (#5575108)
John
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
   10. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:00 PM (#5575114)
Miller
Simmons
Trammell
   11. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5575119)
I go back and forth on Miller. He was obviously very good at what he did and what he did was of great historical significance. But I'm not sure the extent to which Miller's work improved Major League Baseball. I could be persuaded that it did, but I'm not entirely sure.

As far as players, I could make a case that I think I'm comfortable with for at least 5 of the players. But I'm going to go small ballot because I think there's a clear separation below the top two.

Tommy John
Alan Trammell
   12. BrianBrianson Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5575121)
Miller
Tiant
Trammell
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:13 PM (#5575134)
Miller
Trammell
Simmons

I understand dlf's point, but Hall recognition isn't simply about the player/person being inducted. It sucks that he wasn't around for it, but it shouldn't stop the Hall from fixing that mistake.

I visited Murray Chass's site to see what he had to say about Marvin and the honor, since those two were thick as thieves. The most interesting thing I learned is that he's not nearly as fervent about The Jack's worthiness as he was when Morris was on the BBWAA ballot.
   14. Rob_Wood Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5575136)
Trammell
   15. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5575145)
But I'm not sure the extent to which Miller's work improved Major League Baseball.


Free agency is kind of a big deal. And that was a great thing for players.
   16. QLE Posted: November 13, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5575165)
Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
   17. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 13, 2017 at 02:30 PM (#5575236)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   18. Booey Posted: November 13, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5575280)
Hmmm...I'll go with...

Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell

Miller - I've never cared much about the HOF cases for non players, but for those who do, what Miller did is pretty significant.

Simmons - He's always been my in/out line for catchers, and it's perfect since he's right at 50 WAR. Since the catchers directly above Simba look like clear HOFers (Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey), and the guys right behind him feel more like HOVG (Munson, Freehan, Posada), he seems like a good player to define the cut off.

Tiant - Right on my borderline. I actually don't really care one way or the other with him, and my opinion could change depending on the day of the week. Right now I'm feeling generous, I guess.

Trammell - Clearly deserving, and one of the more egregious mistakes (of exclusion) that needs to be fixed.

The others:

Mattingly, Murphy, Parker - HOF caliber players at their peaks, but added virtually nothing of value outside of them. None of them are particularly close, IMO.

Garvey, John, Morris - Just not good enough, IMO, even at their peaks. John is the best, of course, but he took 26 years just to reach the minimum borderline for HOF value. He was never really dominant. In my PHOF he's not as close as lots of people here seem to think. He's basically Johnny Damon if you add 6 more seasons of 1.0 WAR to his career. TJ's wins and innings totals look good, but they're not as impressive as they appear when you consider era. Quite a few pitchers threw a billion innings back in the 70's and lasted long enough to compile impressive wins totals.
   19. bachslunch Posted: November 13, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5575384)
Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell

Would add John if the ballot were five deep. No on the rest.
   20. theorioleway Posted: November 13, 2017 at 07:53 PM (#5575520)
John
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
   21. toratoratora Posted: November 13, 2017 at 08:21 PM (#5575545)
Miller
Trammell
   22. djordan Posted: November 13, 2017 at 08:23 PM (#5575550)
Thanks for posting this.

Miller
Trammell
   23. Rally Posted: November 13, 2017 at 08:25 PM (#5575553)
Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
   24. reech Posted: November 13, 2017 at 10:36 PM (#5575662)
Marvin Miller
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
   25. ThickieDon Posted: November 14, 2017 at 08:25 AM (#5575767)
Alan Trammell
   26. kaline Posted: November 14, 2017 at 09:35 AM (#5575793)
Trammell

Interesting to see Tiant more popular than John so far. If you look solely at John's 1964-1982 years, they are a pretty close match to Tiant's career. John had more hits allowed, fewer strikeouts, but fewer HRs and walks allowed. A little bit better ERA, FIP (but friendlier parks?). And John threw 200 more innings (despite missing that year he took a vacation).
   27. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 14, 2017 at 09:45 AM (#5575802)
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell

With unlimited ballot space I'd also vote for Murphy and Tiant. Trammell is the class of the player candidates. The rest who'd get my vote--John, Simmons, Murphy & Tiant--are relatively interchangeable for me. I selected John and Simmons since without necessarily counting votes, I know Murphy won't get as much support since this is a saber-friendly crowd and I want to see as many reach 75% as possible in our mock election
   28. Jaack Posted: November 14, 2017 at 12:54 PM (#5575956)
Alan Trammell
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Marvin Miller

I go back and forth on Tiant, but no one else is super close. I can squint and almost see the case for Morris and Murphy, but Parker, Mattingly, and Garvey are all clear HoVG material.
   29. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5575966)
Miller and Trammell.

Beyond that, lots of HOVG plaques.
   30. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5575969)
I go back and forth on Miller. He was obviously very good at what he did and what he did was of great historical significance. But I'm not sure the extent to which Miller's work improved Major League Baseball.

Without free agency, how many players would have the financial incentives to pursue baseball over other sports that they think they're equally good at when they're 15 or 16?

   31. SoSH U at work Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5575977)
Without free agency, how many players would have the financial incentives to pursue baseball over other sports that they think they're equally good at when they're 15 or 16?


I think FA is a tremendously important development in baseball history, but I've never believed that the various long-term financial structures of these sports have much of an effect on the decision-making processes of mid-teenagers.

If a serious evaluation of all the long-range factors were considered by these multi-sport athletes, no one would choose football.
   32. Bleed the Freak Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5575997)
Marvin Miller
Alan Trammell
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant

Would consider Dale Murphy and Tommy John if allowed more spots.
   33. Rob_Wood Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:43 PM (#5576008)
Alphabetical ballots folks! :)
   34. Rusty Priske Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:48 PM (#5576023)
Marvin Miller
Dale Murphy
Alan Trammell
   35. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 01:50 PM (#5576029)
Tommy John
Don Mattingly
Marvin Miller
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell


   36. DL from MN Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5576045)
Ballots of more than 4 names will not be counted
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5576061)
But I'm not sure the extent to which Miller's work improved Major League Baseball.

I'm tempted to inquire how you feel about the Emancipation Proclamation. That wasn't very good for slave owners, and somewhat similarly, Marvin Miller & the MLBPA may have had a negative impact on the owners' net worth, but why should that be a criteria for Hall of Fame consideration? Miller brought some economic fairness, free agency, and arbitration to the game, while thwarting the owners repeated, short-sighted efforts to squash the MLBPA. When virtually every Commissioner and numerous general managers seem to be deemed "worthy" of the Hall of Fame, the omission of Miller strikes me as a petty and vindictive act by those that he repeatedly bested at the negotiating table and in the courts.


Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   38. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:46 PM (#5576094)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   39. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 14, 2017 at 02:49 PM (#5576096)
I'm tempted to inquire how you feel about the Emancipation Proclamation. That wasn't very good for slave owners, and somewhat similarly, Marvin Miller & the MLBPA may have had a negative impact on the owners' net worth, but why should that be a criteria for Hall of Fame consideration? Miller brought some economic fairness, free agency, and arbitration to the game, while thwarting the owners repeated, short-sighted efforts to squash the MLBPA. When virtually every Commissioner and numerous general managers seem to be deemed "worthy" of the Hall of Fame, the omission of Miller strikes me as a petty and vindictive act by those that he repeatedly bested at the negotiating table and in the courts.


As I said right before what you quoted what Miller did "was of great historical significance". My only question, really, is, in a world where the Reserve Clause still exists, is Major League Baseball a worse product? I'm not anti-Miller or anti-MLBPA. I'm more anti- putting non-players in the Hall of Fame with a bit of an exception for managers and probably Branch Rickey. Obviously, Bowie Kuhn is a ridiculous HOF inductee by that standard. But in the same way we don't induct every center fielder better Lloyd Waner (although I'll make a Hall-of-Fame case for Al Bumbry if you'd like me to), we can't realistically use Bowie Kuhn as our non-player standard (a standard which Marvin Miller easily clears).

But if I shouldn't care about the "negative impact on the owners' net worth", why should I care about the positive impact on the players' net worth? Why should anybody's net worth matter in a Hall-of-Fame debate? Except for Jack Morris's of course. The fact that he was once the highest-paid pitcher in baseball is obviously a key component of his Hall-of-Fame case.

Andy in #30 has a good answer. That's fair.
   40. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5576111)
My only question, really, is, in a world where the Reserve Clause still exists, is Major League Baseball a worse product?
I think it's easy to answer "yes".

Free agency created a domino effect that allowed players to make enough money that playing baseball could become a full-time occupation for all major leaguers - I remember players having off-season jobs. According to this, the minimum salary in 1975 was $16,000 - about what my dad made as a mailman (and trust me, it wasn't very much back then).

EDIT: I would not vote for Miller, given his wishes. My ballot:

Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
   41. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5576113)
I think it's easy to answer "yes".

Free agency created a domino effect that allowed players to make enough money that playing baseball could become a full-time occupation for all major leaguers


That's a good point. Thank you.
   42. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5576144)
--
   43. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 14, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5576148)
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Alan Trammell

We should note here with all the "HOVG's" floating around that it's categorically untrue that, at their best, Murphy and Parker were only "very good" players. It's only in a "What did they compile?" sense that they fall into that classification and the Hall of Fame is not a WAR compilation tournament.

As to Marvin Miller, free agency would have come to baseball with or without him on virtually the same timetable -- and it came to pro basketball even earlier. I wouldn't really object to him, but in a ballot of four, there's no way I'd list him over a great player like a Dave Parker.
   44. Booey Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5576210)
the Hall of Fame is not a WAR compilation tournament.

Length of dominance has been heavily considered in HOF elections since the beginning; waaaaay before WAR was ever created. You can find non HOFers from every era that played like HOFers for a few years (except maybe the 1920's and 1930's, since the Frisch era VC decided to induct seemingly everyone that ever won 20 games or had a .300 season).

Mattingly, Murphy, and Parker were routinely rejected by the vast majority of the BBWAA before any of them knew what WAR was.

Edit: You also listed John and Morris as guys you'd personally vote for; what makes them HOFers if compiled numbers shouldn't matter? That's all they've got.
   45. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: November 14, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5576236)
Trammell - - slam dunk
Tiant - - and I really vacillate on this decision.

   46. Rennie's Tenet Posted: November 15, 2017 at 09:41 AM (#5576481)
John
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
   47. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 15, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5576485)
You also listed John and Morris as guys you'd personally vote for; what makes them HOFers if compiled numbers shouldn't matter? That's all they've got.


As covered at length, Morris had prolonged periods of greatness in higher-leverage games -- yes, they exist -- and a HOF level of playing ability and was a definitive staff ace. And Game 7 -- which, yes, he gets a big dose of extra credit for. Sorry, but that was a more important and influential game than his stinker in a meaningless game on the penultimate day of the 1983 season. Any system that treats the two identically -- and, hell, there are some that would say that the regular season game was more important (*) -- isn't worth the pixels it's written on.

John gets extra credit for the surgery -- at least as influential and ground-breaking as anything Marvin Miller ever did -- and that gets him over my bar.

(*) LOLOL.
   48. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 15, 2017 at 09:54 AM (#5576489)
Miller
Simmons
   49. Omineca Greg Posted: November 15, 2017 at 10:03 AM (#5576496)
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell

Not voting for Miller because of his request.
   50. DCA Posted: November 15, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5576627)
John
Miller
Simmons
Trammell

would also vote for Murphy and Tiant if no ballot limit
   51. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 15, 2017 at 01:25 PM (#5576637)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   52. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: November 15, 2017 at 01:37 PM (#5576651)
John
Murphy
Tiant
Trammell



with Simmons a very close #5 but just missing out
   53. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: November 15, 2017 at 01:49 PM (#5576660)
Miller
Tiant
Trammell
   54. slothinator Posted: November 15, 2017 at 03:34 PM (#5576741)
Miller
Murphy
Simmons
Trammel
   55. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 15, 2017 at 06:00 PM (#5576870)
No one.

-- MWE
   56. Chris Fluit Posted: November 15, 2017 at 08:22 PM (#5576919)
Miller
Morris
Simmons
Trammell
   57. Ken Griffey Junior Bacon Cheeseburger Posted: November 15, 2017 at 08:39 PM (#5576923)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   58. Mike Webber Posted: November 15, 2017 at 08:58 PM (#5576930)
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   59. Howie Menckel Posted: November 15, 2017 at 09:45 PM (#5576959)
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
   60. John DiFool2 Posted: November 15, 2017 at 10:07 PM (#5576969)
Miller
Simmons
Trammell

[Whitaker write in]
   61. The Duke Posted: November 15, 2017 at 10:12 PM (#5576972)
John
Miller
Simmons
Trammel
   62. The Duke Posted: November 15, 2017 at 10:32 PM (#5576979)
<current vote percentages and predictions removed>


   63. Howie Menckel Posted: November 16, 2017 at 12:39 AM (#5577043)
no predictions, please, is the coin of the BBTF realm - even with these votes
   64. Rob_Wood Posted: November 16, 2017 at 01:43 AM (#5577059)
I think DL has admin rights on this thread. If so, he should delete post #62.
   65. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 16, 2017 at 08:44 AM (#5577097)
Without free agency, how many players would have the financial incentives to pursue baseball over other sports that they think they're equally good at when they're 15 or 16?

I think FA is a tremendously important development in baseball history, but I've never believed that the various long-term financial structures of these sports have much of an effect on the decision-making processes of mid-teenagers.

If a serious evaluation of all the long-range factors were considered by these multi-sport athletes, no one would choose football.


Well, that assumes a lot about the sophistication of high school jocks, especially in the 70's when free agency arrived, and even more especially when you consider that even then there were many thousands of college scholarships being offered to high school football and basketball players, and virtually none to baseball players.

It also doesn't factor in the overwhelming cultural significance of high school football and basketball, and the invisibility of most high school baseball teams---and again, this was even more obvious in the 70's. I played on a DC championship high school baseball team in the 60's that drew at most a couple of hundred curiosity seekers for home games, none of whom showed up when we won the city championship that was played about 15 minutes away from our high school. By contrast, our consistently mediocre football team regularly filled our stadium, and scores of students would travel for road games, even when some of those road games were played in "bad" parts of DC. Those were the sorts of factors that affected the sport choices of multi-sport high school athletes, not any rational consideration of long term injury prospects.
   66. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 16, 2017 at 10:04 AM (#5577158)
Miller
Trammell
Tiant
Simmons
   67. rawagman Posted: November 17, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5577939)
I see viable cases for up to six people here. My top four (in order) are:
Marvin Miller
Alan Trammel
Ted Simmons
Dale Murphy
   68. Obo Posted: November 17, 2017 at 02:25 PM (#5578131)
Marvin Miller
Alan Trammel
   69. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: November 17, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5578146)
Alpha by last name guys.

Miller
Simmons
Trammel
   70. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: November 17, 2017 at 02:48 PM (#5578147)
[Ignored comment]?

Seriously?

LOL.
   71. Justin Turner Overdrive Posted: November 17, 2017 at 05:07 PM (#5578233)
Alan Trammell
Dave Parker
Dale Murphy
Ted Simmons
   72. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: November 17, 2017 at 06:47 PM (#5578255)
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell

I'd add Tiant if I could.
   73. Where have you gone Brady Anderson? Posted: November 18, 2017 at 02:27 PM (#5578385)
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
   74. cardsfanboy Posted: November 18, 2017 at 03:16 PM (#5578397)
Just glancing at the threads and I'm with what is probably the majority, and that is

Simmons(my favorite player of all time....one who I didn't originally think was a hofer, until I started hanging around the Rob Neyer board)
Trammell(an obvious hofer in my opinion)
Tiant(iffy but over the line)
Miller(even if I don't like the guy, his influence on the modern game is undeniable---if Sutter is in for the split finger, then Miller clearly belongs)

I'm reading the thread as I go...

Alphabetical ballots folks! :)


okay....

Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
   75. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: November 18, 2017 at 09:41 PM (#5578447)
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell

I'd vote for Miller, but he said he didn't want to be elected posthumously and I think that should be respected.
   76. robd4701 Posted: November 18, 2017 at 11:33 PM (#5578460)
New to the forum and here's my vote:

Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell

Funny thing with John is he missed about a year and a half with his famous surgery. If he had been healthy during that time he would be well over 300 wins and would have been elected by the BBWAA years ago. Solid pitcher (occasionally great) from the mid 60's until the early 80's.

Miller had a larger impact on the game then some commissioners. I don't buy the argument that it would have happened anyway with or without him. Miller was in the position to change the game and did so.

Morris is hurt by advanced metrics but he was a legitimate staff ace for about 11 years whose career ERA was impacted by some below average years at the end. Close but pushed over the edge by being dominate in not only 91 series but also 84 (2-0; 1.17 ERA that year).

Nothing I can say about Trammell that hasn't already been said in this discussion. He should have been in a while ago.

Considered Murphy too but these 4 have better cases.

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