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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Thursday, September 24, 2015

Most Meritorious Player: 1909 Ballot

For 1909, each voter should rank the top 10 players from all leagues combined.

Balloting is scheduled to close at 4pm EDT on 7 October 2015.

Anyone can vote, even if you do not normally participate in Hall of Merit discussions. If have never participated in an MMP election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 6 October 2015.

For detailed rules see one of our previous ballots.

DL from MN Posted: September 24, 2015 at 03:25 PM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: September 24, 2015 at 05:06 PM (#5045769)
1909 Ballot

1) Ty Cobb - Most batting wins in baseball and a good RF
2) Eddie Collins - Second most batting wins and a very good 2B
3) Honus Wagner - still the best player in the National League, great World Series performance
4) John Henry Lloyd - possibly his best season
5) Christy Mathewson - top pitcher again
6) Tris Speaker - terrific defense in CF
7) Donie Bush - postseason bump for Bush moves him ahead of Crawford
8) Sam Crawford
9) Napoleon Lajoie - beaten out by Collins for best 2B
10) Mordecai Brown - 342 high quality innings

11-15) Nap Rucker, Fred Clarke, Jose Mendez, Orval Overall, Pete Hill
16-21) Mike Mitchell, Frankie Smith, Ed Walsh, Frank Baker, Art Devlin, Bill Monroe
   2. Chris Fluit Posted: September 24, 2015 at 10:59 PM (#5046025)
1909 Ballot

1. Ty Cobb, RF, Detroit Tigers: AL-leading 193 OPS+ and 126 RC, the incredible +9 baserunning pushes him past Wagner
2. Honus Wagner, SS, Pittsburgh Pirates: still the king- in the NL at least
3. Eddie Collins, 2B, Philadelphia Athletics: second in the AL with 171 OPS+ and 106 RC
4. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants: 222 ERA+ but 275 IP barely cracks the top ten
5. Mordecai Brown, P, Chicago Cubs: 193 ERA+ is second in NL; 342 IP is first
6. John Henry Lloyd, SS, Philadelphia Giants: 263 OPS+ but still behind the big two NL pitchers
7. Napoleon Lajoie, 2B, Cleveland Naps: t-5th in AL OPS+ with 151, still a wizard with the glove (+12 fielding runs)
8. Tris Speaker, CF, Boston Red Sox: t-5th in AL OPS+ with Lajoie, +8 in centerfield
9. Sam Crawford, CF/1B, Detroit Tigers: 4th in AL OPS+, 3rd in RC
10. Home Run Baker, 3B, Philadelphia Athletics: solid offensive numbers (147 OPS+, 82 RC) from the hot corner; beats out Doyle by not being atrocious on defense (-1 fielding to Doyle's -10)

11. Larry Doyle, 2B, New York Giants
12. Orval Overall, P, Chicago Cubs
13. Mike Mitchell, RF, Cincinnati Reds
14. Howie Camnitz, P, Pittsburgh Pirates
15. Pete Hill, CF, Chicago Leland Giants
16. Frank Smith, P, Chicago White Sox
17. Harry Krause, P, Philadelphia Athletics
18. Ed Walsh, P, Chicago White Sox
19. Dots Miller, 2B, Pittsburgh Pirates
20. Jose Mendez, P, Cuban Stars of Havana
20. Al Bridwell, SS, New YOrk Giants
   3. baudib Posted: September 24, 2015 at 11:17 PM (#5046028)
How does JHL compare to Wagner, peak vs. longevity, offense, defense, etc.
   4. Chris Fluit Posted: September 24, 2015 at 11:51 PM (#5046043)
The John Henry Lloyd thread has a great discussion about that http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/hall_of_merit/discussion/john_henry_lloyd

Lloyd was called "The Black Wagner"- one of the first Negro League players to receive such a head-to-head comparison. Negro League observers retorted by calling Wagner "The White Lloyd." In the linked thread, someone included a quote by Connie Mack: "You could put Wagner and Lloyd in a bag together, and whichever one you pulled out you couldn't go wrong." When the HoM did its position-by-position vote in 2008, Wagner finished first and Lloyd second (Ripken was third). So the consensus is that Lloyd was good, really good, as good as Wagner.

On the other hand, Wagner and Lloyd were playing in very different leagues. Wagner was playing in the top league against the top players. Lloyd was playing in the top league available to him, and there's no question that Lloyd and the other top players would have been able to make it in the major leagues. But the Negro Leagues weren't nearly as deep as the Majors, meaning that Lloyd was able to beat up on lesser competition in a way that Wagner wasn't. So it's difficult to compare their numbers directly. I think it's that difference in league quality- and the uncertainty that it creates- that leads us to place Wagner first and Lloyd fourth or sixth. As the relative strength of the Negro Leagues improves, I can envision some voters putting a Satchel Paige or Josh Gibson first overall. But it's hard to say definitively that Lloyd was the best player in baseball when he occasionally played against guys who couldn't crack a single-A roster.

As for the numbers: Wagner played 21 seasons in MLB from 23 to 43. He led his league in batting average and OPS as late as 37. He led his league in WAR 11 times in 13 seasons. He finished his career with a 151 OPS+ and 131 WAR. Lloyd played 27 seasons in the Negro Leagues from 22 to 48. He had an OPS+ of 151 and 115 Win Shares Above Bench (a better comparison to WAR considering the difference in schedule and talent level). He didn't have as long a peak as Wagner as he only led his league in position player WAR twice ('08 and '09).
   5. EricC Posted: September 29, 2015 at 03:58 PM (#5049624)
1909 MMP ballot.

1. Eddie Collins
2. Ty Cobb
3. Honus Wagner
4. Mordecai Brown
5. John Henry Lloyd
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Tris Speaker
8. George Gibson. Who? Caught a then-record 150 games while above average on offense and defense.
9. Sam Crawford
10. Orval Overall
   6. neilsen Posted: October 03, 2015 at 11:57 AM (#5052844)
1909 MMP Ballot

1. Ty Cobb
2. Honus Wagner
3. John Lloyd
4. Eddie Collins
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Mordecai Brown
7. Tris Speaker
8. Pete Hill
9. Sam Crawford
10. Nap Lajoie

11. Jose Mendez
12. Orval Overall
13. Frank Baker
14. Frankie Smith
15. Larry Doyle
   7. DL from MN Posted: October 06, 2015 at 01:59 PM (#5055217)
Voted last year, haven't yet this year

caiman
Michael Binkley
John Murphy
bjhanke
toratoratora
   8. bjhanke Posted: October 06, 2015 at 09:43 PM (#5055682)
This is Brock Hanke’s final ballot for 1909. It was an unusual year, in that there was a lot of consensus between Win Shares and WAR. The lowest ranking, in either system, for anyone who made the top ten, was Sam Crawford’s 5.6 WAR, which have him in a three-way tie for 16th in that system. In Win Shares, he ranks 5th, which is how he makes the top ten. But, usually, there is someone who has a very high ranking in one system but a lower ranking than 16th in the other.

Oddly enough, this caused a problem: Where to put Pop Lloyd, who is, IMO at this time, the best player in Negro ball. Usually, there’s a gap somewhere in the white rankings, and I’ll put Lloyd, or whoever from Negro ball, into that slot. However, there just isn’t one of those slots this year. What happens is this: Cobb, Collins, Wagner and Brown rank 1, 2, 3, and 4 in Win Shares, and 2, 3, 4 and 5 in WAR (behind Mathewson). Obviously, the consensus is that they are 1, 2, 3 and, as it turns out, a tie between Brown and Mathewson (8th in Win Shares). I “broke the tie” by slotting Pop Lloyd in as #4. The close consensus in the other slots didn’t leave room for me to rank Pete Hill or any other Negro player. There may be one or two who belong in the top ten somewhere, but I have not even a guess as to where, or even who. So, with that dreary note, here’s the list, without further comment:

1. Ty Cobb
2. Eddie Collins
3. Honus Wagner
4. Pop Lloyd
5. Three Finger Brown
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Orval Overall
8. Tris Speaker, tied with
9. Frank Smith (a pitcher for the White Sox whose name I have no memory of ever having heard before)
10. Sam Crawford
   9. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: October 06, 2015 at 11:00 PM (#5055871)
I will probably submit my ballot just before the deadline tomorrow.
   10. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2015 at 10:07 AM (#5056139)
Official 1909 MMP Ballot (no postseason bonuses and a very slight downward adjustment for AL players):

1) Eddie Collins: Best ML player and second baseman (comfortably, too).
2) Honus Wagner: Best ML shortstop.
3) Ty Cobb: Best ML right fielder.
4) Mordecai Brown: Best ML pitcher and mutilated hand.
5) Christy Mathewson: Still best Tom Seaver antecedent.
6) Orval Overall: Still best alliterative name.
7) John Henry Lloyd: Best NeL player.
8) Tris Speaker: Best ML center fielder.
9) Frank Smith: Best AL pitcher.
10) Sam Crawford: Wahoo!

   11. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: October 07, 2015 at 03:42 PM (#5056629)
1. Eddie Collins
2. Ty Cobb
3. Pop Lloyd
4. Honus Wagner
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Mordecai Brown
7. Orval Overall
8. Donie Bush
9. Tris Speaker
10. Frank Smith
   12. DL from MN Posted: October 07, 2015 at 04:58 PM (#5056754)
7 ballots and it is close enough that ballot 8 could change the results.
   13. DL from MN Posted: October 07, 2015 at 05:00 PM (#5056760)
Balloting is closed
   14. toratoratora Posted: October 07, 2015 at 05:21 PM (#5056791)
Ack. Apologies Gents.
I'm buried in FY end stuff and was hoping to put a ballot Friday.
I'll do 2010 then.
   15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2015 at 05:45 PM (#5056817)
I would have no problem with an extension for toratoratora, FWIW.
   16. DL from MN Posted: October 07, 2015 at 06:41 PM (#5056843)
I haven't posted results yet. Extension to Friday is granted.
   17. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 08, 2015 at 07:54 PM (#5058501)
Cool, Dan. All the ballots we can get, the better! :-)
   18. toratoratora Posted: October 08, 2015 at 09:37 PM (#5058595)
1-Cobb-193 OPS+, 188 wRC, +9rBaser, +4 rField
2-Honus Wagner-Great series (.967 OPS) put him over Collins. 177 OPS+, 174 wRC, 2.0 dWAR.
3-Collins-Cobb and Collins are 22, Baker is 23, Speaker is 21. The game is awash in young studs. 171 OPS+, +11 rField, +5 Rbaser in his first full year.
4-Mordecai Brown-70 extra innings pitched carries him over Matty. 193 ERA+, appeared in 50 games!
5-Christy Mathewson-222 ERA+, 1.14 ERA
6-Pop Lloyd. Best NL player.
7-Orval Overall-179 ERA+, 205 K leads Majors
8-Tris Speaker-151 OPS+, +8 rField in his first full year. Tough to beat the rookie combo of Speaker and Collins
9-Donie Bush-An early walking man. 88 BB leads league for first of four years straight, 115 OPS+, +8 rField at SS, .846 OPS in WS carries him over Lajoie and Crawford
10-Lajoie-151 OPS+, +12 rField, 128 games played limits his value otherwise he would be ranked higher

Thanks, Gents.
   19. frannyzoo Posted: October 08, 2015 at 09:43 PM (#5058600)
Allow me, incredibly long-time lurker, to thank you guys for all this. What a wealth of knowledge/information. Well done. Now back to your regularly scheduled ballot...
   20. DL from MN Posted: October 09, 2015 at 10:52 AM (#5058880)
Closed

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