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Thursday, September 03, 2015

Most Meritorious Player: 1909 Discussion

Most Meritorious Player: 1909 Discussion

Wagner and the Pirates beat Cobb and the Tigers in the World Series.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Ty Cobb			45.0		9.8
Honus Wagner		41.8		9.2
Eddie Collins		42.8		9.7
Tris Speaker		33.2		6.3
Sam Crawford		33.4		5.6
Donie Bush		28.4		6.5
Napoleon Lajoie		27.1		6.4
Fred Clarke		31.0		5.2
Mike Mitchell		27.4		5.4
Frank Baker		27.5		5.8
Art Devlin		24.1		4.5
Al Bridwell		25.1		5.6
Ed Konetchy		24.6		4.8
Freddy Parent		22.5		5.3
George Gibson		23.0		4.1
Danny Murphy		23.1		3.5
Solly Hofman		27.4		3.9
John Titus		20.5		3.8
Jake Stahl		21.8		3.3
Clyde Engle		22.7		3.5
Dick Hoblitzell		22.5		4.1
Joe Tinker		23.5		4.8
Larry Doyle		27.8		3.9
Heinie Wagner		16.6		3.2
Johnny Evers		25.5		4.1
Dots Miller		23.9		4.6
Harry Steinfeldt	23.7		4.0
Bill Carrigan		12.3		2.8

John Henry Lloyd
Pete Hill
Bill Monroe
Luis Padron

Pitcher			SH WS		BBR WAR
Christy Mathewson	30.7		10.2
Mordecai Brown		37.0		8.8
Nap Rucker		21.4		7.3
Orval Overall		30.6		8.1
Frank Smith		29.5		7.2
Ed Walsh		22.6		6.6
Art Fromme		18.9		5.9
Addie Joss		19.9		5.0
Cy Morgan		22.7		6.2
George Mullin		26.1		5.4
Howie Camnitz		29.5		5.4
Earl Moore		23.4		5.6
Harry Krause		19.1		5.4
Ed Reulbach		23.0		5.2
Barney Pelty		12.7		4.3
Doc White		20.1		3.1
Al Mattern		17.1		3.3
Chief Bender		20.2		5.5
Hooks Wiltse		20.2		4.7
Eddie Plank		20.4		5.5
Jack Powell		14.9		4.2
Cliff Curtis		8.4		3.5
Vic Willis		24.8		4.3

Jose Mendez
Walter Ball
Sy Hayman
Harry Buckner
DL from MN Posted: September 03, 2015 at 11:02 AM | 16 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: September 08, 2015 at 11:34 AM (#5033810)
I think Wagner's streak gets broken this year
   2. DL from MN Posted: September 08, 2015 at 04:34 PM (#5034028)
This looks like Lloyd's peak season hitting .449/.488/.692 over 86 plate appearances. At age 25 his defense should be peak also.
   3. DL from MN Posted: September 08, 2015 at 04:37 PM (#5034029)
Pete Hill's numbers are down a little (.354/.431/.510) from 1908 but his Cuban numbers are great.
   4. DL from MN Posted: September 08, 2015 at 04:45 PM (#5034032)
1909 Prelim

1) Ty Cobb - breaks through
2) Eddie Collins - great debut
3) Honus Wagner
4) John Henry Lloyd
5) Christy Mathewson - top pitcher
6) Tris Speaker - more young talent
7) Sam Crawford
8) Donie Bush
9) Napoleon Lajoie
10) Mordecai Brown

11-15) Nap Rucker, Orval Overall, Fred Clarke, Mike Mitchell, Pete Hill
16-20) Frankie Smith, Ed Walsh, Frank Baker, Bill Monroe, Art Devlin
   5. Chris Fluit Posted: September 11, 2015 at 09:33 AM (#5036251)
1909 Prelim- NL Only

1. Honus Wagner, SS, Pittsburgh Pirates: still the king- in the NL at least
2. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants: 222 ERA+ but 275 IP barely cracks the top ten
3. Mordecai Brown, P, Chicago Cubs: 193 ERA+ is second in NL; 342 IP is first
4. Larry Doyle, 2B, New York Giants: an iron glove (-10 fielding) but a big bat (141 OPS+) from a premium defensive position
5. Orval Overall, P, Chicago Cubs: 179 ERA+ is third in NL
6. Mike Mitchell, RF, Cincinnati Reds: a career year with a 152 OPS+ and +6 fielding
7. Howie Camnitz, P, Pittsburgh Pirates: 158 ERA+ is fourth in NL
8. Dots Miller, 2B, Pittsburgh Pirates: a surprising rookie season (121 OPS+ and +9 fielding)
9. Al Bridwell, SS, New York Giants: next up in a great line of Giants shortstops (124 OPS+ and +4 fielding)
10. Ed Konetchy, 1B, St. Louis Cardinals: a solid bat (144 OPS+) in a weak offensive era
   6. Chris Fluit Posted: September 12, 2015 at 10:06 AM (#5036974)
1909 Prelim- AL Only

1. Ty Cobb, RF, Detroit Tigers: league-leading 193 OPS+ and 126 RC to go along with an incredible +9 baserunning
2. Eddie Collins, 2B, Philadelphia Athletics: second to Cobb, but that's not a bad place to be
3. Napoleon Lajoie, 2B, Cleveland Naps: t-5th in OPS+, still a wizard with the glove (+12 fielding runs)
4. Tris Speaker, CF, Boston Red Sox: t-5th in OPS+, +8 in centerfield
5. Sam Crawford, CF/1B, Detroit Tigers: 4th in OPS+, 3rd in RC
6. Home Run Baker, 3B, Philadelphia Athletics: solid offensive numbers (147 OPS+, 82 RC) from the hot corner
7. Frank Smith, P, Chicago White Sox: the best of a weak crop thanks to a ginormous 365 IP
8. Harry Krause, P, Philadelphia Athletics: Al-leading 174 ERA+ but only 213 IP
9. Ed Walsh, P, Chicago White Sox: second in ERA+ with 167 but 230 IP doesn't crack the top ten
10. Donie Bush, SS, Detroit Tigers: a double threat with the bat (115 OPS+) and the glove (+8 fielding)
   7. Chris Fluit Posted: September 12, 2015 at 10:16 AM (#5036980)
1909 Prelim- Combined

1. Ty Cobb, RF, Detroit Tigers: AL-leading 193 OPS+ and 126 RC, the incredible +9 baserunning pushes him past Wagner
2. Honus Wagner, SS, Pittsburgh Pirates: still the king- in the NL at least
3. Eddie Collins, 2B, Philadelphia Athletics: second in the AL with 171 OPS+ and 106 RC
4. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants: 222 ERA+ but 275 IP barely cracks the top ten
5. Mordecai Brown, P, Chicago Cubs: 193 ERA+ is second in NL; 342 IP is first
6. John Henry Lloyd, SS, Philadelphia Giants: 263 OPS+ but only played 75% of team games
7. Napoleon Lajoie, 2B, Cleveland Naps: t-5th in AL OPS+ with 151, still a wizard with the glove (+12 fielding runs)
8. Tris Speaker, CF, Boston Red Sox: t-5th in AL OPS+ with Lajoie, +8 in centerfield
9. Sam Crawford, CF/1B, Detroit Tigers: 4th in AL OPS+, 3rd in RC
10. Home Run Baker, 3B, Philadelphia Athletics: solid offensive numbers (147 OPS+, 82 RC) from the hot corner; beats out Doyle by not being atrocious on defense (-1 fielding to Doyle's -10)

11. Larry Doyle, 2B, New York Giants
12. Orval Overall, P, Chicago Cubs
13. Mike Mitchell, RF, Cincinnati Reds
14. Howie Camnitz, P, Pittsburgh Pirates
15. Frank Smith, P, Chicago White Sox
16. Harry Krause, P, Philadelphia Athletics
17. Ed Walsh, P, Chicago White Sox
18. Dots Miller, 2B, Pittsburgh Pirates
19. Jose Mendez, P, Cuban Stars of Havana
20. Al Bridwell, SS, New YOrk Giants
   8. Chris Fluit Posted: September 12, 2015 at 10:25 AM (#5036982)
This looks like Lloyd's peak season hitting .449/.488/.692 over 86 plate appearances. At age 25 his defense should be peak also.
Pete Hill's numbers are down a little (.354/.431/.510) from 1908 but his Cuban numbers are great.

I realized that I made an error for Lloyd on my ballot. His team played 24 games but he played in all 18 games for which we have box scores so I shouldn't have docked him for missing time. The change in playing time halves the gap between him and Brown (and doubles his advantage over Lajoie) but isn't enough to change his spot. However, I made the same mistake for Pete Hill who played in all 25 of his team's boxscore games (they played 30 all told) and it makes enough of a difference that Hill would now slot in ahead of Frank Smith at 15th, knocking Bridwell out of the top 20.
   9. Chris Fluit Posted: September 12, 2015 at 10:28 AM (#5036984)
DL, and everyone else who looks at Negro League players, you may also want to take a look at the two Cuban pitchers Jose Munoz and Jose Mendez. They lead the Negro Leagues in WAR, partly because the Cuban Stars of Havana had a bigger schedule than any other team, but they also had the numbers to back it up. Mendez had a 291 ERA+ in 75 IP and Munoz a 137 ERA+ in 91 IP. Mendez snakes into my top twenty thanks to that outstanding (though unsustainable) ERA.
   10. DL from MN Posted: September 14, 2015 at 09:52 AM (#5038047)
I have Mendez as the best black pitcher in 1909, not sure how to fit him in amongst all the pitchers yet, let alone all players.
   11. caiman Posted: September 16, 2015 at 01:52 PM (#5039819)
Here's my RPA rated top players for 1909, with the run value produced:

1. Eddie Collins 46.87 runs
2. Ty Cobb 46.47 runs
3. Honus Wagner 40.49 runs
4. Christy Mathewson 39.43 runs
5. Mordecai Brown 37.29 runs
6. Mike Mitchell 32.12 runs
7. Dick Hoblitzell 25.62 runs
8. Fred Clarke 24.02 runs
9. Patsy Dougherty 23.56 uns
10. Howie Camnitz 23.51 runs
   12. DL from MN Posted: September 17, 2015 at 03:16 PM (#5040994)
World Series Stats
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB
Fred Clarke  7  19  7  4  0  0  2  7  5  3  .211  .400  .526  .926  3  
George Gibson  7  25  2  6  2  0  0  2  1  1  .240  .269  .320  .589  2  
Honus Wagner  7  24  4  8  2  1  0  6  4  2  .333  .467  .500  .967  6

Donie Bush  7  22  5  7  1  0  0  3  5  3  .318  .483  .364  .846  1
Ty Cobb  7  26  3  6  3  0  0  5  2  2  .231  .310  .346  .656  2  
Sam Crawford  7  28  4  7  3  0  1  4  1  1  .250  .276  .464  .740  1  

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Babe Adams  3  3  1.33  3  0  0  3  27.0  18  5  4  6  11  0.889
Howie Camnitz  2  1  13.50  0  1  0  0  3.1  8  6  5  2  2  3.000
Vic Willis  2  1  4.63  0  1  0  0  11.2  10  6  6  8  3  1.543  
   13. DL from MN Posted: September 24, 2015 at 04:55 PM (#5045764)
Best 30 seasons of 1901-1909 according to my calculator (no stdev or scoring adjustments)

Wagner 1908 25.4
Cobb 1909 21.5
Wagner 1907 20.9
Collins 1909 20.2
Wagner 1906 20.1

Lajoie 1901 20.1
Wagner 1905 20.0
Lajoie 1904 20.0
Waddell 1902 19.6
Wagner 1909 19.4

Lajoie 1906 19.3
Stone 1906 18.2
Cy Young 1901 17.8
JH Lloyd 1909 17.6 (est)
Devlin 1906 16.9

Wagner 1902 16.6
Wagner 1903 16.3
Lajoie 1903 16.0
Wagner 1901 16.0
Wagner 1904 15.8

Mathewson 1905 15.6
Seymour 1905 15.5
Mathewson 1909 15.2
Turner 1906 15.2
Cy Young 1902 15.0

Mathewson 1908 15.0
Speaker 1909 14.9
Sheckard 1903 14.9
Magee 1907 14.9
JH Lloyd 1908 14.8 (est)
   14. DL from MN Posted: September 30, 2015 at 01:07 PM (#5050344)
Thought this was interesting so I'm cross-posting


RMc is organizationalwide! Posted: September 29, 2015 at 06:44 PM (#5049741)
22 and under all-star team, by WAR

1B: Jimmie Foxx, 1929 (age 21, 7.9 WAR)
2B: Eddie Collins, 1909 (22, 9.7)
3B: Dick Allen, 1964 (22, 8.8)
SS: Rogers Hornsby, 1917 (21, 9.9)
LF: Ted Williams, 1941 (22, 10.6)
CF: Mike Trout, 2012 (20, 10.8)
RF: Bryce Harper, 2015 (22, 10.2)
C: Johnny Bench, 1970 (22, 7.4)

You know you've got a good lineup when there's no room on it for guys like Cobb, A-Rod, Musial, Mathews, Ripken, Kaline, DiMaggio or Speaker.
   15. DL from MN Posted: September 30, 2015 at 01:10 PM (#5050349)
Going through that list and MMP voting

1964 - Dick Allen 2nd
2012 - Mike Trout 1st
1970 - Johnny Bench 2nd
   16. toratoratora Posted: October 08, 2015 at 09:13 PM (#5058567)
1909 Prelim
No adjustments, just raw WAR mix. Weighted as usual.

1-Cobb
2-Collins
3-Honus Wagner
4-Mordecai Brown
5-Christy Mathewson
6-Orval Overall
7-Tris Speaker
8-Sam Crawford
9-Donie Bush
10-Nap Rucker
10-Frank Smith
10-Fred Clarke

13-Walsh
14-Nap

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