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Thursday, November 19, 2015

Most Meritorious Player: 1911 Ballot

For 1911, each voter should rank the top 10 players from all leagues combined.

Balloting is scheduled to close at 4pm EDT on 2 December 2015.

Anyone can vote, even if you do not normally participate in Hall of Merit discussions. If have never participated in an MMP election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 1 December 2015.

For detailed rules see one of our previous ballots.

DL from MN Posted: November 19, 2015 at 01:29 PM | 17 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: November 19, 2015 at 01:32 PM (#5098613)
Post early and enjoy your holiday or do your evaluation while enjoying your holiday.
   2. DL from MN Posted: November 20, 2015 at 12:30 PM (#5099268)
1) Ty Cobb - hit .420 with gap power
2) Joe Jackson - .468 OBP
3) Eddie Collins
4) John Henry Lloyd - close to Wagner in value
5) Honus Wagner
6) Nap Rucker - best pitcher
7) Frank Baker - great postseason
8) Jimmy Sheckard
9) Pete Alexander
10) Walter Johnson

11-15) Birdie Cree, Bill Handy, Jose Mendez, Vean Gregg, Sam Crawford

Mendez had a great year but not that different from his 1909

16-20) Bill Pettus, Ed Walsh, Tris Speaker, Christy Mathewson, Frank Schulte
21-25) Pete Hill, Babe Adams, Joe Wood, Lefty Leifield, Ed Konetchy
   3. EricC Posted: November 21, 2015 at 03:15 PM (#5099932)
1911 MMP ballot.

1. Ty Cobb
2. Joe Jackson
3. Walter Johnson
4. José Méndez
5. Eddie Collins
6. Ed Walsh
7. Frank "Home Run" Baker
8. Vean Gregg
9. Christy Mathewson (NL MMPi; #2 Alexander)
10. Honus Wagner (NL MMPP; #2 Sheckard)
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 21, 2015 at 06:32 PM (#5100071)
Official 1911 MMP Ballot (no postseason bonuses and a slight downward adjustment for AL players)

1) Ty Cobb: Best ML player and center fielder - comfortably ahead of #2.
2) Honus Wagner: Best ML shortstop.
3) Eddie Collins: Best ML second baseman.
4) Joe Jackson: Best ML right fielder and rookie performance.
5) Christy Mathewson: Best ML pitcher.
6) Frank Baker: Best ML third baseman.
7) John Henry Lloyd: Best NeL player and shortstop.
8) Ed Walsh: Best AL pitcher.
9) Jose Mendez: Best NeL pitcher.
10) Pete Alexander: Best ML rookie pitcher.
   5. Chris Fluit Posted: November 21, 2015 at 09:47 PM (#5100148)
4) John Henry Lloyd - close to Wagner in value
5) Honus Wagner

DL, you say that Lloyd is close to Wagner in value but have Lloyd ahead. What's right- the comment or the ranking?
   6. DL from MN Posted: November 21, 2015 at 09:56 PM (#5100153)
They're close but Wagner slipped a little
   7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 22, 2015 at 09:42 AM (#5100232)
2) Honus Wagner: Best ML shortstop.


Forgot to add he's my pick for best NL player.
   8. DL from MN Posted: November 23, 2015 at 10:42 AM (#5100689)
Three ballots, three different top pitchers
   9. Yardape Posted: November 23, 2015 at 03:11 PM (#5100904)
Revised my ballot a bit, I think I was giving pitchers a little too much weight.

1. Ty Cobb - Best player, not particularly close
2. Jose Mendez - I remain impressed with his Cuban and American seasons; even after pitcher readjustment he stays here. Best pitcher
3. Eddie Collins
4. Frank "Home Run" Baker - The two cornerstones of the A's, both get a WS bump.
5. "Shoeless" Joe Jackson - tremendous rookie season
6. Christy Mathewson - Best ML pitcher/NL MMP
7. Sam Crawford
8. Honus Wagner - Slips, but still best NL position player
9. Frank Schulte
10. Pete Alexander

AL pitching MMP would be Walter Johnson, just off ballot.
   10. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 26, 2015 at 03:33 PM (#5102433)
Three ballots, three different top pitchers


Now it's four.
   11. Chris Fluit Posted: November 28, 2015 at 11:52 AM (#5102937)
1911 Ballot

For some reason, I can't post a prelim to the discussion thread so I'll skip that step and go straight to the ballot.

1. Ty Cobb, CF, Detroit Tigers: dominant season leading majors with 196 OPS+ and 169 RC
2. Shoeless Joe, RF, Cleveland Naps: would be an MMP in most years; 193 OPS+ and 155 RC
3. Honus Wagner, SS/1B, Pittsburgh Pirates: 2nd in NL with 156 OPS+ but still +7 fielding at mostly SS
4. Jose Mendez, P, Cuban Stars of Havana: eye-popping 271 ERA+
5. Eddie Collins, 2B, Philadelphia Athletics: 162 OPS+ and 103 RC from the keystone
6. Sam Crawford, RF, Detroit Tigers: 3rd in MLB with 163 OPS+ and 132 RC
7. Walter Johnson, P, Washington Senators: 173 ERA+ in 322 IP
8. Home Run Baker, 3B, Philadelphia Athletics: 149 OPS+ and 113 RC from the hot corner
9. Larry Doyle, 2B, New York Giants: 3rd in NL with 155 OPS+
10. Ed Walsh, P, Chicago White Sox: edges out Mathewson for the last ballot spot

11. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants
12. Vean Gregg, P, Cleveland Naps
13. Frank Schulte, RF, Pittsburgh Pirates
14. Tris Speaker, CF, Boston Red Sox
15. Pete Alexander, P, Philadelphia Phillies
   12. caiman Posted: November 30, 2015 at 08:38 PM (#5104347)
Here's my RPA top 10 by the number of runs above the median:

1. Shoeless Joe Jackson 52.09 runs
2. Ty Cobb 48.33 runs
3. Eddie Collins 46.60 runs
4. Grover Alexander 45.52 runs
5. Frank Schulte 41.31 runs
6. Honus Wagner 35.22 runs
7. Larry Doyle 34.09 runs
8. Home Run Baker 33.82 runs
9. Tris Speaker 33.50 runs
10. Russ Ford 32.63 runs
   13. bjhanke Posted: December 02, 2015 at 02:47 AM (#5105374)
This is Brock Hanke’s final ballot for the 1911 MMP. You all know my methodology by now, so I’ll just mention that there was very reasonable consensus between Win Shares and WAR this year, so I just dropped the #10 man, Vean Gregg, and added a Negro League player. Possibly the best NgL player in 1911 was someone named Dee Williams, about whom I know almost nothing except that he was a left fielder and that he had only this one year in NgL. I have no idea what happened to him, and he didn’t play a lot of games even in 1911, but he did hit like crazy. Pete Hill, who had a lot more playing time, and played center field, was probably worth more, but I can’t be sure. On the other hand, Hill’s teammate Pop Lloyd, being Pop Lloyd, had a higher OBP than Hill, a higher SLG than Hill, and played shortstop. He didn’t play as many games as Hill, but Lloyd is a lot like Honus Wagner; there’s about a decade where he is the best player in NgL pretty much every year. So I went with Pop again, placing him third. This is a very high ranking for a NgL player, but there is a significant gap between Ty Cobb and Joe Jackson, and everyone else. It’s the biggest gap in the top ten, so I put Pop there. He was 27; I think it’s a defensible placement.

So, here’s the list. Except for Lloyd, I’ve listed the rankings according to Win Shares and also according to WAR, and the sum of the two, which is where I start. Lloyd, of course, has no data anywhere near as reliable as the white major league players do, so I don’t place him or any other NgL player, in those lists. I just try to figure out where there’s a gap.

You may notice that this list is overwhelmingly comprised of AL players. The difference in recruiting between the leagues is really starting to show. The best NL position player is Honus, but he doesn’t make the list. The largest gap between the rankings for any outstanding player is for Sam Crawford. Win Shares has him ranked 5th, but WAR has him ranked 21st. My guess is that WAR has some sort of system mistake that affects Crawford. His reputation corresponds with the Win Shares.

Name – WS+WAR=SUM
1. Ty Cobb – 1+1=2
2. Joe Jackson – 2+2=4
3. Pop Lloyd
4. Ed Walsh – 9+3=12
5. Walter Johnson – 8+5=13
6. Pete Alexander – 6+7=13
7. Eddie Collins – 3+12=15
8. Christy Mathewson – 7+8=15
9. Nap Rucker – 13+4 = 17
10. Home Run Baker – 4+14 = 18
   14. Chris Fluit Posted: December 02, 2015 at 08:53 AM (#5105417)
Brock, can I ask how you resolved the ties between Johnson & Alexander and Collins & Mathewson? (I'm curious, that's all.)
   15. DL from MN Posted: December 02, 2015 at 09:46 AM (#5105477)
Voted recently, haven't voted

Binkley
toratoratora

Best pitcher is still unclear
   16. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: December 02, 2015 at 03:59 PM (#5105871)
1. Ty Cobb
2. Joe Jackson
3. Pop Lloyd
4. Ed Walsh
5. walter johnson
6. pete alexander
7. eddie collins
8. Honus wagner
9. jose mendez
10 Christy mathewson

my apologies - i need a new key board - the shift key doesn't like me today
   17. DL from MN Posted: December 02, 2015 at 04:31 PM (#5105896)
Balloting is closed

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