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Thursday, February 21, 2019

Most Meritorious Player: 1913 Ballot

For 1913 each voter should rank the top 10 players from all leagues combined.

Balloting is scheduled to close at 4pm EDT on 6 March 2019.

Anyone can vote, even if you do not normally participate in Hall of Merit discussions. If you have never participated in an MMP election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 5 Mar 2019.
For detailed rules see one of our previous ballots.

DL from MN Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:20 PM | 15 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5817112)
1913 Ballot

1) Walter Johnson - best pitching season we have ever voted on
2) Eddie Collins - great glove year, great performance in postseason
3) Joe Jackson - best bat
4) Tris Speaker
5) Ty Cobb
6) Frank Baker - great postseason but can't catch Cobb
7) Reb Russell - my new name for the month
8) Babe Adams - best NL pitcher
9) Jose Mendez - best black player
10) Gavy Cravath - best NL position player

11-15) John Henry Lloyd, Joe Williams, Christy Mathewson, Slim Sallee, Eddie Cicotte
16-20) Pete Alexander, Jim Scott, Chief Meyers, Frank Wickware, Napoleon Lajoie
21-25) Cy Falkenberg, Cristobal Torriente, Tom Seaton, Stuffy McInnis, Louis Santop
   2. MrC. Posted: February 25, 2019 at 04:01 PM (#5818030)
1913 Ballot
1. Walter Johnson 17.10 WARR WOW!!!
2. Tris Speaker 11.19 WARR
3. Eddie Collins 10.35 WARR
4. Babe Adams 8.72 WARR
5. Frank Baker 8.30 WARR
6. Ty Cobb 7.56 WARR
7. Joe jackson 7.49 WARR
8. Christy Mathewson 6.55 WARR
9. Jose Mendez 6.34 WARR
10. Burt Shotton 6.29 WARR

Rest of top 15
11. Buck Weaver
12. Reb Russell
13. Red Smith
14. Slim Sallee
15. John Henry Lloyd
   3. bjhanke Posted: February 26, 2019 at 08:28 AM (#5818200)
Does anyone know what happened to Pop Lloyd as he navigated through the WAR systems? One has him as a very superior player, probably tied for best by Smokey Joe Williams. The other one - the one on the header - has Lloyd somewhere around a Larry Bowa season. I am strongly inclined to take the "good" evaluation, which will put Pop in the middle of my ballot somewhere. I'll just do that if no one knows what's going on with the WAR systems. Thanks in advance!
   4. DL from MN Posted: February 26, 2019 at 10:00 AM (#5818232)
Brock - the numbers in the header of the discussion thread are from Seamheads and are based on the games they actually have records for. They are not an MLE and should not be treated as similar to the WAR numbers for white MLB players. They are useful mainly in comparing black players to each other. The MLEs are in the discussion.
   5. bjhanke Posted: February 27, 2019 at 04:38 AM (#5818568)
DL - Thanks. I was looking at the discrepancy between the header and Eric's MLEs. Eric's method pulls Smokey Joe Williams and Jose Mendez ahead of the other pitchers. It also pulls Pop Lloyd WAY ahead of any other position player. Lloyd, based on Eric's numbers and my memory that, every time Pop's name has ever come up anywhere I've heard it, whoever was talking about Pop would invariably say that he was so similar to Honus Wagner, aside from appearance, that they are just about equal, has a lot of weight in my analyses, because good, reliable statistics just aren't available for dead ball era black baseball. In these years we are doing now, Honus is in his decline phase, while Pop is about 30. So, not only will Pop certainly be on my ballot, I may end up ranking him among the top five, although Honus himself will not rank. Williams and Mendez are so close that I don't really know how to handle them when the number of players to be listed is ten, so I will probably just leave both of them off. Thanks for the info - and for posting Eric's numbers up in the first place. - Brock
   6. progrockfan Posted: March 03, 2019 at 09:54 AM (#5819839)
1. Walter Johnson (one of the greatest pitching seasons in the history of the game)
2. Eddie Collins (AL MM Player, co-best defensive IF)
3. John Henry Lloyd (NgL MM Player, co-best defensive IF, Collins beats him on basepath speed)
4. Tris Speaker (best defensive OF)
5. Cyclone Joe Williams (NgL MM Pitcher)
6. Gavy Cravath (NL MM Player)
7. Shoeless Joe Jackson
8. Ty Cobb (best hitter by OPS+, but missed 22% of his team's games)
9. Eddie Ciccote
10. Christy Mathewson (NL MM Pitcher)

11-15: Grant Johnson, Jose Mendez, Babe Adams, Reb Russell, Home Run Baker
   7. caiman Posted: March 04, 2019 at 10:57 AM (#5819986)
Here's the RPA top rated, based upon runs produced above the median:

1. Walter Johnson 53.32 runs
2. Shoeless Joe Jackson 52.57 runs
3. Eddie Collins 51.76 runs
4. Home Run Baker 49.55 runs
5. Ty Cobb 49.26 runs
6. Tris Speaker 46.09 runs
7. Gavvy Cravath 30.99 runs
8. Burt Shotton 28.16 runs
9. Vic Saier 26.64 runs
10. Christy Mathewson 25.95 runs
11. Tom Seaton 25.66 runs
12. Sam Crawford 25.64 runs
13. Jim Viox 24.21 runs
14. Babe Adams 23.43 runs
15. Tommy Leach 22.81 runs
16. Stuffy McInnis 22.76 runs
17. Grover Alexander 22.27 runs
18. Rube Marquard 22.02 runs
19. Heinie Zimmerman 21.63 runs
   8. bjhanke Posted: March 04, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5820055)
Here's Brock Hanke's ballot for 1913. Man, this one was easy. WAR and Win Shares are in deep consensus this time. I thought I would place Pop Lloyd higher, but the #3, 4, and 5 slots are virtually equal, so I dropped Pop below the tight group.So, OK. Here goes:

1. Walter Johnson
2. Eddie Collins
3. Reb Russell
4. Home Run Baker
5. Tris Speaker
6. Pop Lloyd
7. Shoeless Joe Jackson
8. Ty Cobb
9. Babe Adams
10. Christy Mathewson
   9. DL from MN Posted: March 04, 2019 at 02:35 PM (#5820071)
FYI - I usually don't accept caiman's ballot because he doesn't consider Negro League players
   10. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 05, 2019 at 05:14 PM (#5820530)
Official 1913 MMP Ballot (no postseason bonuses and, despite the greater star power, a 2% deduction for the AL):

1) Walter Johnson: Best ML player and pitcher - while I don't think the gap is as great between the top two like WAR does, it's pretty large, regardless.
2) Eddie Collins: Best ML second baseman.
3) Home Run Baker: Best ML third baseman.
4) Tris Speaker: Best ML center fielder.
5) Shoeless Joe Jackson: Best ML right fielder.
6) Ty Cobb: Best ML holdout.
7) John Henry Lloyd: Best NeL player and ML/NeL shortstop
8) Babe Adams: Best NL pitcher.
9) Jose Mendez: Best NeL pitcher.
10) Smokey Joe Williams: Not that far off from Mendez.
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 05, 2019 at 05:45 PM (#5820543)
8) Babe Adams: Best NL pitcher.


Best NL player, too.
   12. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: March 05, 2019 at 10:24 PM (#5820591)
1913 MMP ballot

1. Walter Johnson (40.42)
2. Tris Speaker (26.10) - AL MMPosition Player
3. Eddie Collins (22.90)
4. Frank Baker (20.42)
5. Ty Cobb (20.00)
6. Joe Jackson (18.27)
7. Reb Russell (16.49)
8. Jose Mendez (16.44) - NeL MMP
9. Pop Lloyd (15.09) - NeL MMPosition Player
10. Babe Adams (13.65) - NL MMP

11-15. Cy Falkenberg, Christy Mathewson, Gavvy Cravath (NL MMPosition Player), Edddie Cicotte, Joe Williams.
   13. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: March 05, 2019 at 11:58 PM (#5820595)
Final ballot-no postseason credit but some small credit for playing for Pennant-contender

1. Walter Johnson --easy #1
2. Eddie Collins --fielding helped make top position player
3. Tris Speaker
4. Joe Jackson
5. Home Run Baker
6. Babe Adams
7. Ty Cobb --would've made top 5 if had played more games
8. Reb Russell
9. Pop Lloyd
10.Gaavy Cravath --edges out Mathewson for final spot
   14. Chris Fluit Posted: March 06, 2019 at 07:52 AM (#5820605)
1913 Ballot

An AL Heavy Year

1. Walter Johnson, P, Washington Senators: the best pitching season ever?
2. Joe Jackson, RF, Cleveland Indians: 192 OPS+ is 2nd in AL, 133 RC is 1st
3. Tris Speaker, CF, Boston Red Sox: 182 OPS+ is only good for 3rd in AL; 120 RC is 2nd
4. Eddie Collins, 2B, Chicago White Sox: 164 OPS+ while contributing +11 with the glove
5. Ty Cobb, CF, Detroit Tigers: 194 OPS+ leads AL but injuries limited him to 122 games
6. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants: leads the NL with 153 ERA+ in 306 innings
7. Eddie Cicotte, P, Chicago White Sox: 186 ERA+ is pretty good
8. Cristobal Torriente, RF, Cuban Stars of Havana: 192 OPS+ is pretty good, too
9. Home Run Baker, 3B, Philadelphia Athletics: 167 OPS+ from the hot corner
10. Babe Adams, P, Pittsburgh Pirates: claims the last ballot spot with 140 ERA+ in 313 IP

11. Reb Russell, P, Chicago White Sox
12. Gavvy Cravath, RF, Philadelphia Phillies: top position player in the NL
13. Jim Scott, P, Chicago White Sox: what a rotation!
14. Smoky Joe Williams, P, New York Lincoln Giants
15. Pelayo Chacon, SS, Cuban Stars of Havana
   15. DL from MN Posted: March 06, 2019 at 04:08 PM (#5820786)
Polling is closed

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