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Tuesday, April 23, 2019

Most Meritorious Player: 1915 Ballot

For 1915 each voter should rank the top 10 players from all leagues combined.
Balloting is scheduled to close at 4pm EDT on 1 May 2019.
Anyone can vote, even if you do not normally participate in Hall of Merit discussions. If you have never participated in an MMP election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 30 April 2019.
For detailed rules see one of our previous ballots.

DL from MN Posted: April 23, 2019 at 12:13 PM | 10 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: April 23, 2019 at 12:52 PM (#5834463)
1915 Ballot

1) Ty Cobb - best bat by a lot, great baserunning
2) Pete Alexander - best P, postseason credit
3) Eddie Collins - great glovework
4) Gavy Cravath - great glove rating this season, I wonder how much of his bat and glove are the Baker Bowl but he was the guy who figured out how to produce there, best NL position player
5) Walter Johnson - best AL pitcher
6) Tris Speaker - slick fielder but bat was a down year
7) Honus Wagner - best SS
8) Heinie Groh - best 3B
9) Jack Fournier - best 1B
10) Dizzy Dismukes - best NGL pitcher

11-15) Fred Toney, John Henry Lloyd, Fred Luderus, Frank Snyder, Dick Redding
16-21) Ben Taylor, Cristobal Torriente, Jeff Tesreau, Guy Morton, Bill Hinchman, Joe Williams

Benny Kauff was the best player in the Federal League but he isn't in my top 25.
   2. caiman Posted: April 26, 2019 at 11:08 AM (#5835608)
Here's the RPA top players, based upon run value created above the median. SURPRISE! The top player WAS NOT TY COBB! A pitcher ends up as the top player! Here's the list:

1. Pete Alexander 58.62 runs
2. Ty Cobb 55.42 runs
3. Eddie Collins 51.67 runs
4. Gavvy Cravath 42.57 runs
5. Jack Fournier 40.50 runs
6. Walter Johnson 40.43 runs
7. Tris Speaker 30.38 runs
8. Larry Doyle 27.07 runs
9. Bill Hinchman 26.73 runs
10. Burt Shotton 25.33 runs
11. Guy Morton 24.42 runs
12. Harry Coveleski 24.02 runs
13. Fred Luderus 22.54 runs
14. Vic Saier 21.27 runs
15. Fred Toney 20.71 runs

Pete Alexander's 1915 performance was the best by any pitcher in MLB history!
   3. bjhanke Posted: April 28, 2019 at 08:44 PM (#5836193)
Well, here’s Brock Hanke’s ballot, for what it’s worth. My consensus of ordinals approach worked well for the first five players, and then just collapsed. Win Shares and WAR have no real agreement when it comes to player rankings in 1915. This being 1915, you can’t really do any serious statistical analysis of negro players. There’s no Negro League yet, and barnstorming statistics are basically worthless. I went with such reputations as I have encountered. For those of you who are wondering why Pop Lloyd is on the ballot while Honus Wagner is not, the basic reason is that Lloyd was five years younger than Honus, who was slowing down.

I, of course, deleted Benny Kauff and Dave Davenport from consideration because of the Federal League. I deleted Gavy Cravath and Fred Luderus for being products of the Baker Bowl. One reason that I got serious about doing this is that I looked up Sherry Magee. Magee, a righty, is the player whose New Historical section contains the quote from Cravath that puts paid FOR ALL TIME to the idea that Gavy Cravath used his brilliant mind to adapt to the Baker Bowl. Cravath specifically says that his batting style would produce more homers for Sherry Magee (Cravath was also a righty) “in any park.” These are Cravath’s own words. He did NOT adapt to the Baker Bowl. He just had an unusual hitting style that produced a few extra homers in the Baker Bowl. This is very clear. It’s HIS OWN WORDS!!! I actually put Pete Alexander ahead of Ty Cobb because Pete had to PITCH in the Baker Bowl, and was spectacular anyway.

BTW, Sherry Magee, in 1914, hit 15 homers in the Baker Bowl, following a season in which he had hit 11. He was 29 years old. The next year, this here 1915, traded to Boston, he hit exactly TWO homers, and would never again exceed THREE in any year. He’s not on my ballot, either.

Anyway, here’s the list:

1. Pete Alexander
2. Ty Cobb
3. Walter Johnson
4. Eddie Collins
5. Tris Speaker (after Speaker, there is no system consensus)
6. Pop Lloyd
7. Jack Fournier
8. Jeff Pfeffer
9. Smokey Joe Williams
10. Bobby Veach
   4. DL from MN Posted: April 29, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5836322)
Any opinions on whether to allow Caiman's ballot this year? Normally I disqualify his ballots because he expressly doesn't consider NGL players. This year I'm not sure that there are NGL players who would make necessarily make a ballot. I am leaning towards no - not considering players is disqualifying - but could be persuaded to allow this ballot.
   5. MrC. Posted: April 29, 2019 at 05:26 PM (#5836486)
1915 Ballot

1. Pete Alexander 14.27 WARR Superior pitching in a very much hitter's ball park
2. Walter Johnson 12.51 WARR Excellent hitting to go with continued pitching excellence
3. Edde Collins 10.15 WARR
4. Gavy Cravath 8.70 WARR Excellent fielding numbers and good offensive numbers even with consideration for extreme offensive park factors
5. Ty Cobb 8.65 WARR Best offensive numbers, but poorer than average defense drops his rating down
6. Tris Speaker 7.47 WARR
7. Benny Kauff 7.46 WARR 20% reduction for being in the federal league
8. Jack Fournier 6.71 WARR
9. Tom Hughes 6.45 WAR
10. Jeff Tesreau 6.28 WARR

Rest of the top 15
11. Sherry Magee
12. Dave Davenport (20% reduction)
13. Buck Weaver
14. Fred Luderus
15. Eddie Planck (20% reduction)

Best NGL player John Henry Lloyd


With regards to Caiman, His ballot is certainly reasonable in considering others that we have seen. The only question you have to answer is if you can accept his philosophy for creating his ballot. I will not pretend that I can answer this without more background on how the philosophy used for accepting ballots was developed.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 30, 2019 at 06:33 PM (#5836896)
Official MMP Ballot for 1915 (no postseason bonuses, plus a small NL penalty and a big FL one):

1) Dick Redding: Best ML/NeL pitcher/player - looks like I'm the outlier here, but I stand by my choice.
2) Ty Cobb: Best AL player and ML center fielder - very close to Cannonball above.
3) Pete Alexander: Best NL pitcher/player.
4) Walter Johnson: Best AL pitcher.
5) Eddie Collins: Best ML second baseman.
6) Gavvy Cravath: Best NL positional player and ML right fielder.
7) Smokey Joe Williams: Best Smokey Joe.
8) Tris Speaker: Best prematurely gray player.
9) Larry Doyle: Best NL second baseman.
10) Jack Fournier: Best ML first baseman.
   7. DL from MN Posted: May 01, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5837077)
Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: April 30, 2019 at 10:57 PM (#5837009)
I'm having the issue accessing the ballot thread, so could someone please transfer my ballot:

1. Ty Cobb (29.10)
2. Pete Alexander (26.69) - NL MMP
3. Eddie Collins (24.68)
4. Walter Johnson (24.48) - AL MMPitcher
5. Tris Speaker (18.37)
6. Gavvy Cravath (17.07) - NL MMPosition Player
7. Jack Fournier (15.54)
8. John Henry Lloyd (15.44) - NgL MMP
9. Cristobal Torriente (14.21)
10. Fred Toney (12.55)

Joe Williams - NgL MMPitcher
   8. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: May 01, 2019 at 02:16 PM (#5837263)
Final ballot-no postseason credit but some small credit for playing for a Pennant-contender
1. Pete Alexander--amazing he accomplished this with the Baker Bowl as his home ballpark
2. Ty Cobb--excellent SB% for the time
3. Walter Johnson--Alexander & Johnson towered over rest of pitchers
4. Eddie Collins--top 4 were close
5. Tris Speaker
6. Gavvy Cravath--the Baker Bowl certainly helped but he's still the top NL position player for me
7. Jack Fournier
8. Fred Toney--best human pitching performance. Much less innings but completed most of starts
9. John Henry Lloyd
10.Bobby Veach--#7 thru 10 were relatively close
   9. Chris Fluit Posted: May 01, 2019 at 04:54 PM (#5837353)
Thanks for holding the polls open an extra hour

1915 Ballot

1. Pete Alexander, P, Philadelphia Phillies: dominant season, with 225 ERA+ and 376 IP to lead MLB in both categories
2. Ty Cobb, CF, Detroit Tigers: AL leading 185 OPS+ and 138 RC with +8 baserunning
3. Walter Johnson, P, Washington Senators: 191 ERA+ and 336 IP lead the AL
4. Eddie Collins, 2B, Chicago White Sox: 3rd in AL with 165 OPS+ while adding +12 with the glove
5. Gavvy Cravath, RF, Philadelphia Phillies: 170 OPS+ and 101 RC lead the NL
6. Larry Doyle, 2B, New York Giants: 145 OPS+ from a 2B more than makes up for -8 fielding
7. Jim Scott, P, Chicago White Sox: solid combo of ERA+ (4th in AL) and IP (6th)
8. Tris Speaker, CF, Boston Red Sox: 151 OPS+ with +10 fielding
9. John Henry Lloyd, SS, New York Lincoln Stars: 160 OPS+ while playing above average D at SS (+0.6 WAR)
10. Frank Snyder, C, St. Louis Cardinals: a catcher who hits for a 125 OPS+ in the depths of the deadball era

11. Dick Rudolph, P, Boston Braves: WAR doesn't care for him but I'm impressed with 341 IP at a 114 ERA+
12. Jack Fournier, 1B, Chicago White Sox: 2nd in AL OPS+
13. Dizzy Dismukes, P, Indianapolis ABCs: 254 ERA+ in 188 IP
14. Stan Coveleski, P, Detroit Tigers: another high IP (312) pitcher
15. Jeff Pfeffer, P, Brookyn Robins: 134 ERA+ is 3rd in NL
   10. DL from MN Posted: May 02, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5837557)
election is over

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