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Friday, September 06, 2019

Most Meritorious Player: 1920 Discussion

Babe Ruth became a Yankee in January.

The Negro National League was founded in February with teams in Chicago, Cincinnati, Dayton, Detroit, Indianapolis, Kansas City and St. Louis.

In July Walter Johnson threw his only no-hitter.

In August Ray Chapman was hit by a Carl Mays pitch and killed.

The Chicago American Giants won the first pennant in the Negro National League.

The Cleveland Indians defeated the Brooklyn Robins in the World Series 5 games to 2.

In November Kenesaw Mountain Landis became commissioner of baseball.

Vote for 10.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Babe Ruth		52.0		11.8
Rogers Hornsby		38.3		9.6
Eddie Collins		37.5		7.9
George Sisler		34.4		9.9
Tris Speaker		38.9		8.5
Ross Youngs		32.5		6.4
Joe Jackson		35.5		7.5
Dave Bancroft		25.6		6.8
Edd Roush		32.7		5.9
Heinie Groh		26.6		3.9
Baby Doll Jacobson	25.2		6.0
Cy Williams		25.0		5.8
Happy Felsch		28.9		5.5
Zack Wheat		29.1		4.8
Steve O'Neill		25.1		4.5
Wally Schang		19.9		3.4
Hi Myers		27.1		4.1
Ray Chapman		20.4		3.8
Larry Gardner		22.9		4.0
Bobby Veach		25.0		4.2
Harry Hooper		24.2		5.2
George J Burns		23.9		4.6
Del Pratt		24.7		4.6
Art Fletcher		17.7		4.4
Pete Kilduff		18.5		3.2
Sam Rice		23.5		4.6
Elmer Smith		21.1		4.1
Joe Judge		21.4		4.1

Oscar Charleston	31.5		6.6
Cristobal Torriente	28.3		6.0
Jimmie Lyons		20.9		4.3
Bingo DeMoss		17.5		4.1
Ben Taylor		19.8		4.1
Bartolo Portuondo	13.6		3.6
Oliver Marcell		6.1		3.1
John Henry Lloyd	6.8		3.0
Hurley McNair		14.4		2.9
Dobie Moore		9.9		2.2
Dick Lundy		9.5		1.8
Pete Hill		8.5		1.2
Morten Clark		14.9		1.7
John Donaldson		14.6		2.3
Bernardo Baro		14.6		1.8

Pitcher			SH WS		BBR WAR
Pete Alexander		35.3		12.6
Jim Bagby		32.9		9.0
Stan Coveleski		30.9		8.8
Burleigh Grimes		30.8		8.1
Bob Shawkey		25.5		8.0
Hippo Vaughn		21.5		5.8
Wilbur Cooper		30.4		6.3
Urban Shocker		22.2		6.7
Babe Adams		25.9		5.5
Dixie Davis		20.1		6.0
Carl Mays		26.2		6.3
Leon Cadore		19.4		4.7
Bill Doak		18.4		4.3
Howard Ehmke		17.2		4.4
Eddie Cicotte		24.7		4.8
Red Faber		26.6		5.1
Lee Meadows		18.4		3.3
Herb Pennock		17.7		4.1
Dolf Luque		16.4		4.6
Dutch Reuther		18.8		4.5
Jack Quinn		19.4		4.1
Dickie Kerr		20.8		3.0
Fred Toney		19.9		3.2

Sam Crawford		14.1		4.0
Bullet Rogan		13.7		3.4
Jose LeBlanc		14.3		5.4
Cheo Hernandez		14.5		4.7
Reuben Curry		13.8		3.8		
John Finner		13.8		3.3
Dave Brown		14.3		3.2
Tom Williams		14.8		2.5
Bill Gatewood		16.4		2.8
DL from MN Posted: September 06, 2019 at 05:38 PM | 15 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: September 06, 2019 at 05:41 PM (#5877263)
Probably Ruth, Alexander, Charleston for me. Need to get to work on my prelim.
   2. DL from MN Posted: September 09, 2019 at 10:35 AM (#5877712)
Eric C MLEs 1920
Player Name Age Lg Pos  PA Rbat Rbaser Rfield Rpos RAA   WAA  Rrep RAR   WAR
=======================================================================
Oscar Charleston  23 NL  CF  590   50    2     - 2   - 3   46   5.1   18   64   7.2
Dobie Moore  24 NL  SS  590   24    0      11    8   43   4.9   18   62   7.0
Cristobal Torriente  26 NL  CF  610   44    1       0   - 3    42   4.6   19   61   6.8
Alejandro Oms  24 NL  CF  580   38    0    0    -1    -3   34   3.7   20   53   6.0
Blainey Hall  31  NL LF   580   43    0     -1    -6    35   3.8   18   53   5.9
Jimmie Lyons  30 NL  LF   570   34     2     0     2    - 6    31   3.5   18   49   5.6
Dick Lundy 21 NL  SS   510   21    0    0      2     7   30   3.4   16   46   5.2
Pelayo Chacon  31 NL SS    550   16    0      2     8   26   2.9   17   43   4.9
Ben Taylor  31 NL  1B  630   23    0       4   - 5   22   2.5   20   42   4.8
Bill Pierce  30 NL  1B    530   24   -1       4   - 4   22   2.5   17   38   4.4
John H Lloyd  36 NL SS    480   14    0    0     2     7   23   2.6   15   38   4.3
Edgar Wesley  29 NL  1B  600   22    0       2   - 5   19   2.2   19   38   4.3
Spots Poles  32 NL  LF  510   19    1    0     3   - 5    17   1.9   17   34   3.9
Doc Wiley 33  NL  C  330   19    0       0     3   22   2.5  11   34   3.8
Bullet Rogan  26 NL  CF  530   18    1       3   - 6   16   1.8   17   33   3.8
Louis Santop 31 NL  C  360   16    0       0    4   19   2.2   11   31   3.5
Oliver Marcell  25 NL  3B  600    5    0      2    4    12   1.3   19   30   3.5
Bernardo Baro  24  NL CF   520   16    1      0     - 3    14   0.5   16   30   3.4
George Carr  25 NL  1B  620   16    0     - 1   - 5   10   1.1   19   29   3.3
Bill Pettus  35 NL 1B    380   16    0    0     4   - 3   17   2.0   12   29   3.3
Irvin Brooks  29 NL  CF  540   15  - 1     1   - 3    12   1.4   17   29   3.3
Pete Hill  37 NL RF   430   20    0    0    -1    -5   15   1.6   13   28   3.2
Fats Jenkins  22 NL  LF  520   10    1     2    - 5     8   0.9   16   24   2.7
Biz Mackey  22 NL  C  290   10    0       1    3   14   1.5    9   23   2.6
John Beckwith  20 NL SS     70    2    0    0     0     1    4   0.4    2    6   0.7
Bill Riggins  20 NL SS     90     0    0      1     1     2   0.3    3    5   0.6 


                       PITCHING          |  BATTING    |  TOTAL
PITCHER NAME  AGE   IP  RAA   WAA   WAR  |  PA    WAR  |   WAR
================================================================
Joe Williams   34  300   30   3.6   6.5  |  100   0.4  |   6.9
Bullet Rogan   26  270   22   2.6   5.2  |   90   0.8  |   6.0
Juan Padron    27  300   16   1.9   4.8  |  100  -0.5  |   4.5 
Reuben Curry   21  250   15   1.8   4.2  |   83  -0.2  |   4.1
Jose Junco     30  240   17   2.0   4.3  |   80  -0.4  |   4.0 
Dick Redding   30  300    6   0.7   3.7  |  100   0.2  |   3.8
Jo Donaldson   29  200   12   1.5   3.4  |   67   0.2  |   3.6
Dave Brown   25    270    9   1.0   3.7  |   90  -0.5  |   3.2
Andy Cooper    24  140    5   0.6   1.9  |   47  -0.4  |   1.5
   3. DL from MN Posted: September 09, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5877740)
I don't have any evidence that Oms actually played in 1920, he was good in 1921 winter ball. I think that Joe Williams MLE is borrowing from earlier years where they underestimated his peak.
   4. DL from MN Posted: September 09, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5877747)
1920 Prelim

1) Babe Ruth - this will probably become a trend
2) Pete Alexander - so much more valuable than any other pitcher
3) Rogers Hornsby - best NL player, 2nd best bat
4) Eddie Collins
5) George Sisler
6) Tris Speaker
7) Ross Youngs
8) Oscar Charleston - best NGL player
9) Jim Bagby - best AL pitcher
10) Cristobal Torriente

11-15) Stan Coveleski, Joe Jackson, Burleigh Grimes, Jose LeBlanc, Dobie Moore
16-20) Dave Bancroft, Dick Lundy, Blainey Hall, Bob Shawkey, Bullet Rogan
   5. DL from MN Posted: September 10, 2019 at 10:21 AM (#5878042)
On Seamheads Joe Williams has a WAR of 0.8 and 3.5 Win Shares but the Eastern teams have far fewer documented games than the new Negro National League teams. He did pitch a game against white competition and won it, not finding details at the moment.
   6. MrC. Posted: September 17, 2019 at 06:00 PM (#5880141)
1920 Prelim
1. Babe Ruth 12.77 WARR
2. George Sisler 10.78 WARR
3. Rogers Hornsby 10.87 WARR
4. Burleigh Grimes 10.18 WARR
5. Stan Coveleski 8.81 WARR
6. Pete Alexander 8.54 WARR
7. Tris Speaker 8.33 WARR
8. Eddie Collins 8.09 WARR
9. Sam Rice 7.1 WARR
10. Dave Bancroft 6.97 WARR
Rest of top 15
11. Ed Roush
12. Oscar Charleston
13. Happy Felsch
14. Dobie Moore
15. Urban Shocker
   7. DL from MN Posted: September 23, 2019 at 04:36 PM (#5882318)
1920 World Series
Player Name G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS SB E WPA
Jim Bagby 2 6 1 2 0 0 1 3 0 0 .333 .333 .833 1.167 0 0 1 0.01
Stan Coveleski 3  10 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 4 .100 .100 .100 .200 0 0 1 -0.26
Larry Gardner 7  24 1 5 1 0 0 2 1 1 .208 .240 .250 .490 0 0 2 0.00
Steve O'Neill 7 21 1 7 3 0 0 2 4 3 .333 .440 .476 .916 0 0 1 0.14
Tris Speaker 7  25 6 8 2 1 0 1 3 1 .320 .393 .480 .873 0 0 0 0.25

Burleigh Grimes 3 6 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333 .333 .333 .667 0 0 1 -0.03
Pete Kilduff 7 21 0 2 0 0 0 0 1 4 .095 .136 .095 .232 0 0 0 -0.36
Hi Myers 7 26 0 6 0 0 0 1 0 1 .231 .231 .231 .462 0 2 0 -0.26 
Zack Wheat 7 27 2  9 2 0 0 2 1 2 .333 .357 .407 .765 0 0 2 -0.22

Pitcher Name G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H R ER BB SO WHIP WPA
Jim Bagby 2 2 1.80 1 1 0 1 15.0 20 4 3 1 3 1.400 0.08 
Stan Coveleski 3 3 0.67 3 0 0 3 27.0 15 2 2 2 8 0.630 1.29

Leon Cadore 2 1 9.00 0 1 0 0 2.0 4 2 2 1 1 2.500 -0.19
Burleigh Grimes 3  3 4.19 1 2 0 1 19.1 23 10 9 9 4 1.655 0.11
   8. DL from MN Posted: September 23, 2019 at 04:39 PM (#5882319)
Bagby was good in the World Series but Coveleski was dominant. Speaker and O'Neill also get bonus credit.
   9. Qufini Posted: October 02, 2019 at 09:22 AM (#5885372)
1920 Prelim Ballot

1. Babe Ruth, OF, New York Yankees: the highest rated season of this project to date thanks to a 255 OPS+ and 200 RC
2. George Sisler, 1B, St. Louis Browns: 182 OPS+ and 178 RC would be an MMP season more often than not
3. Oscar Charleston, CF, Indianapolis ABCs: 191 OPS+ and +18 fielding in the NNL
4. Rogers Hornsby, 2B, St. Louis Cardinals: Rogers becomes Rajah with 185 OPS+ and 136 RC
5. Pete Alexander, P, Chhicago Cubs: 166 ERA+ and 363 IP lead the majors by comfortable margins
6. Cristobal Torriente, CF, Chicago American Giants: 238 OPS+ but only 65% of the recorded playing time of Charleston
7. Tris Speaker, CF, Cleveland Indians: 172 OPS+ and 145 RC
8. Joe Jackson, RF, Chicago White Sox: slightly better offensively that Speaker but falls behind due to positional adjustment and defense
9. Eddie Collins, 2B, Chicago White Sox: 146 OPS+ and +5 fielding at the keystone
10. Stan Coveleski, P, Cleveland Indians: tops in the AL with 156 ERA+
   10. DL from MN Posted: October 02, 2019 at 02:37 PM (#5885509)
Burleigh Grimes pitched for the Brooklyn Robins, a terrible offensive team that went to the WS, despite the fact that the only serious offensive threat was Zack Wheat. Grimes was 23-11 on a team with fabulous pitching, but little offense. His won-loss record was truly remarkable, considering the lack of offensive support. Pete Alexander was on a mediocre team, but the offense was at least average to very slightly above average, although much of the rest of the pitching staff was horrid. The Chicago Cubs did have four pretty good hitters that season in Max Flack, Dode Paskert, Dave Robertsdon and Charlie Hollocher. Pete Alexander had an excellent year at +20.36 runs, but Grimes had a lot less offensive support in compiling his terrific won-loss record, than did Alexander.


Why does the offensive support have anything to do with how pitching value is evaluated?
   11. DL from MN Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:06 PM (#5885525)
Every single year of the lively ball nonsense, from 1921 to 1925, Babe Ruth's RPA was LOWER than either of his two dead ball era performances! So, explain to me how it helped the Babe?


The answer is pretty obvious - it helped everyone else way more than it helped Babe Ruth. Ruth was the only one who was successful driving a dead ball over the fence. Once the ball became easier to hit it made sense for lesser athletes to change their approach. We're seeing the same thing in 2019. The juiced ball isn't helping the big HR hitters hit more HR, it's helping the backup catchers and utility infielders hit more HR. When everyone can hit homers then power hitters are worth less relatively.
   12. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 02, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5885534)
The answer is pretty obvious - it helped everyone else way more than it helped Babe Ruth. Ruth was the only one who was successful driving a dead ball over the fence. Once the ball became easier to hit it made sense for lesser athletes to change their approach.


Yep. Had the Babe started his career in 1939 with Ted Williams, I'm not sure who would have wound up as the more dominating hitter. By that time, there were many more players who were hitting the modern way (and more pitchers able to defend against it better), so it was harder to stand out as much. Of course, someone else would have had to popularize the uppercut years earlier instead :-).

The bottom line is Ruth was playing a different and more productive type of baseball, which took many years for enough ballplayers to follow suit.
   13. Qufini Posted: October 04, 2019 at 08:58 AM (#5886352)
DL, are we doing 1921 next, or 2019?
   14. DL from MN Posted: October 04, 2019 at 09:35 AM (#5886363)
1921 next, 2019 after the playoffs are completed. I can get discussion threads up for both next week.
   15. DL from MN Posted: October 07, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5887440)
Best pitching seasons in the history of the MMP project by my point score

1913 W Johnson 22.6
1920 Alexander 22.2
1985 Gooden 21.5
1995 Maddux 21.4
1972 Carlton 21.2
1994 Maddux 20.6
1918 W Johnson 20.4
1997 Clemens 19.9
1968 Gibson 19.5
2000 P Martinez 19.5
2009 Greinke 19.1
1902 Waddell 19.1
1912 W Johnson 19.1
1944 Trout 19.0
1945 Newhouser 18.8
1963 Koufax 18.7
1946 Feller 18.6
1919 W Johnson 18.5
1972 Seaver 18.3
2004 Santana 18.2
1971 Seaver 18.0
1999 P Martinez 18.0
1971 Wood 17.9
2015 Greinke 17.9
1901 Young 17.8
1916 Alexander 17.8
1978 Guidry 17.7
1972 Perry 17.7
1995 R Johnson 17.7
1980 Carlton 17.5
1953 Roberts 17.5

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