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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 29, 2011

Most Meritorious Player: 1964 Ballot

Here are the specific rules for this election:

Candidate Eligibility: Any North American professional baseball player is eligible for the Most Meritorious Player (MMP) award including players in the top Negro Leagues or independent teams. Voters should consider the player’s on-field contribution to Major League Baseball (MLB) team(s) in that season only. If part of the season was spent outside MLB, that value may be considered as well. However, the player’s on-field contribution should be judged in relation to the highest level major league, not relative to a minor league. A season may include playoff or World Series games but does not include spring training or exhibition games. No credit will be given for games not played due to injury, wartime service or contract holdouts.
Ballot Length: For 1964, each voter should rank 10 players.
Voter eligibility: All voters who did not vote in the previous year’s election must post a preliminary ballot in the ballot discussion thread at least 2 days before voting ends. All voters must fill out a complete ballot. Voters must briefly explain their ballot choices. One person, one vote; anyone determined to have voted with multiple accounts will be banned and their votes will be disallowed. The MMP ballot committee has authority to exclude any ballot that does not meet these requirements.
Scoring: Points will be given in descending order with the highest-ranked player receiving 15 points, the second highest 14 points, and so on until the last player on the ballot receives 6 points. The player with the highest point total will be named the MMP for 1963. In case of a tie, the tiebreaker will be number of 1st place votes. If the first tiebreaker does not determine a winner the players will share the title of Most Meritorious Player.

Balloting will close at 4pm EDT on 7 September 2011.

Anyone can vote, even if you haven’t said a word yet in any of the MMP threads. If you missed the last election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 5 September 2011.

fra paolo Posted: August 29, 2011 at 02:45 PM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: August 30, 2011 at 03:30 PM (#3912282)
Hot topics
   2. Chris Fluit Posted: August 30, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#3912432)
1964 Ballot

1. Willie Mays, CF, San Francisco Giants: 172 OPS+, 136 RC, +17 fielding runs in CF, 10.2 WAR- I've voted Mays 2nd, 1st, 2nd and 1st again. I always knew he was good but Mays is even more impressive when you look at his career season by season.

2. Ron Santo, 3B, Chicago Cubs: 164 OPS+, 135 RC, +3 fielding runs at 3B, 7.9 WAR- I think WAR has it wrong. Santo has a 2 point OPS+ advantage over Allen and was the better defender. I don't see that Allen makes that up, even if he wasn't as bad a base-runner.

3. Dean Chance, P, Los Angeles Angels: 198 ERA+, 278 innings pitched, 8. 1 WAR- Chance sneaks in between the two third baseman

4. Dick Allen, 3B, Philadelphia Phillies: 162 OPS+, 135 RC, -2 fielding runs at 3B, 9.1 WAR

5. Don Drysdale, P, Los Angeles Dodgers: 149 ERA+, 321 innings, 8.3 WAR

6. Brooks Robinson, 3B, Baltimore Orioles: 145 OPS+, 115 RC, +17 at 3B, 8.1 WAR- It's a great year for third basemen when Brooks is third best at the position and sixth best overall.

7. Jim Fregosi, SS, Los Angeles Angels: 141 OPS+, 89 RC, +16 fielding runs at SS, 8.1 WAR- I decided that my shortstop bonus was too low in my prelim. A slightly higher bonus jumps Fregosi from 12th onto the ballot.

8. Frank Robinson, LF, Cincinnati Reds: 160 OPS+, 127 RC, +7 in LF, 7.6 WAR

9. Elston Howard, C, New York Yankees: 128 OPS+, 93 RC, +10 at catcher, 6.0 WAR- the catcher bonus is almost enough to make up for 32 points of OPS+ and 34 runs created on a corner outfielder. Almost, but not quite.

10. Tony Oliva, RF, Minnesota Twins: 150 OPS+, 132 RC, +6 in RF, 5.9 WAR- WAR doesn't like Oliva as much as I do but he's boosted over the other batters by his leading RC while Koufax is hurt by his low innings total

The next five:

11. Bob Allison, 163 OPS+, 119 RC, +5 at 1B
12. Sandy Koufax, 188 ERA+, 223 IP
13. Mickey Mantle, 178 OPS+, 121 RC, -14 in CF
14. Whitey Ford 170 ERA+, 244 IP
15. Boog Powell, 176 OPS+, 105 RC, +2 at 1B
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 31, 2011 at 12:38 PM (#3913136)
1) Richie Allen - I have the rookie third baseman clearly at the top.
2) Willie Mays - This fellow probably would make the top-ten if he was in a full-body cast. Best center fielder in the majors.
3) Ron Santo - Not as good as Allen overall at that position, but, unlike Richie, can play a mean third base.
4) Mickey Mantle - Best AL center fielder again.
5) Hank Aaron - Best right fielder in the majors.
6) Dean Chance - Best pitcher in the majors.
7) Elston Howard - Best catcher in the majors.
8) Frank Robinson - Should be in a Reds uniform for a very long time to come.
9) Brooks Robinson - Best AL third baseman.
10) Boog Powell - Best first baseman in the majors.
   4. Al Peterson Posted: August 31, 2011 at 01:41 PM (#3913191)
Just for others noting ballot listings both #2 & #3 have Boog Powell at 1B. In 1964 he was a left fielder. Not quibbling with either ranking, 10-15 is reasonable, but for that year Boog was roaming the outfield like the gazelle we all remember...
   5. DL from MN Posted: August 31, 2011 at 02:59 PM (#3913302)
> Hank Aaron - Best right fielder in the majors

I have him 4th after Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente and Tony Oliva. Powell, Callison and Billy Williams also put up good seasons in the corner outfield. Bob Allison is my vote for best 1B in the majors this year. I'll talk more about Bob Allison in the discussion thread.
   6. Chris Fluit Posted: August 31, 2011 at 03:15 PM (#3913324)
#4- Thanks for the correction, Al.

#5- Frank Robinson was in LF in 1964, not right.
   7. DL from MN Posted: August 31, 2011 at 04:02 PM (#3913364)
Noted on Robinson. Dan R counts them all as one position.
   8. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 31, 2011 at 05:06 PM (#3913448)
8) Frank Robinson - Should be in a Reds uniform for a very long time to come.

That's not funny.
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 31, 2011 at 10:13 PM (#3913809)
Just for others noting ballot listings both #2 & #3 have Boog Powell at 1B. In 1964 he was a left fielder. Not quibbling with either ranking, 10-15 is reasonable, but for that year Boog was roaming the outfield like the gazelle we all remember...


Yep, I messed up there. I quickly wrote that up and forgot he wasn't a first baseman that season. Thanks for catching that, Al.

#5- Frank Robinson was in LF in 1964, not right.


Right, which would make him the best ML left fielder by my analysis.

8) Frank Robinson - Should be in a Reds uniform for a very long time to come.

That's not funny.


If I had been a Red fan back then, I know I wouldn't be laughing either (not that I was really making a joke anyway, just a little swipe at the deal itself).
   10. DL from MN Posted: September 01, 2011 at 04:44 PM (#3914565)
1964 Ballot

1) Willie Mays - It is amazing how consistently he is at the top of the ballot. It's hard just staying healthy this consistently. Best rate stats of anyone.
2) Ron Santo - He had to be a no-doubt best glove in baseball at 3B to get ahead of Mays and there is some doubt.
3) Dean Chance - spectacular pitching season. The top 3 guys are bunched together closely.
4) Dick Allen - His bat is a smidge better than Santo but his glove is worse.
5) Brooks Robinson - Solid hitting season from Brooks and the same reliable glove, lots of good infielders this year
6) Jim Fregosi - top SS, avg glove and very good bat
7) Don Drysdale - Laps the field in innings pitched
8) Frank Robinson - Nice bounceback
9) Denis Menke - 20 HR batting next to no-hit Bolling and the pitcher in the Braves lineup.
10) Sandy Koufax - short on IP but still high quality

11-15) Bob Allison, Ron Hansen, Elston Howard, Mickey Mantle, Boog Powell
16-20) Luis Tiant, Roberto Clemente, Tony Oliva, Henry Aaron, Pete Ward
   11. sunnyday2 Posted: September 02, 2011 at 01:28 PM (#3915344)
Some changes from preliminary ballot.

1. Mays-still the one (no change)
2. Allen (no change)
3. Santo (up from #6)
4. B. Robby (down from #3)
5. Mantle--WS has him #4, WARP nowhere (no change)

6. F. Robinson (up from #7)
7. Dean Chance--out of nowhere (up from #10)
8. E. Howard--WARP blows it 2 years running on Ellie (up from #9)
9. Aaron (up from #11)
10. Oliva (up from #16--OK, he's a sentimental choice, but everybody thought he was off the charts good, could everybody have been so wrong?)

11. Ron Hansen (up from #13)
12. K. Boyer--MVP on a world championship team, did WS and WARP miss this one or did the BBWAA miss it? (Yeah, they missed it., Down from #4)
13. Callison--I thought he had a better year than in 1963, WARP does not agree (down from #8)

(The rest are in the same order as my prelim, though some of the rankings have been changed to protect the innocent, no point to agonizing over these guys)

14. Koufax
15. Bill White
16. Torre
17. Ward
18. Clemente
19. Fregosi
20. Drysdale
21. Powell
22. Killebrew
23. W, Davis
24. B. Williams
25. Jim Ray Hart?
   12. Chris Fluit Posted: September 02, 2011 at 04:23 PM (#3915497)
10. Oliva (up from #16--OK, he's a sentimental choice, but everybody thought he was off the charts good, could everybody have been so wrong?)


yay! I'm not the only vote for Oliva.
   13. DL from MN Posted: September 02, 2011 at 04:39 PM (#3915514)
Vote for Pedro!
   14. Rob_Wood Posted: September 05, 2011 at 04:30 PM (#3917036)
My final ballot. See notes on prelim ballot for some explanations.

1. Willie Mays
2. Dick Allen
3. Ron Santo
4. Brooks Robinson
5. Frank Robinson

6. Dean Chance
7. Hank Aaron
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Sandy Koufax
10. Jim Fregosi
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: September 06, 2011 at 02:15 AM (#3917437)
1964 ballot

1. WILLIE MAYS – A still-good CF with a league-best 172 OPS+ and played in 157 games, and in the better league. That’s your MMP.
2. RON SANTO – Not quite sold that he was quite good enough at 3B defensively to make up the 8 pts in OPS+, but this is a superstar season for sure.
3. RICHIE ALLEN – 161 OPS+ and played all 162 G at 3B. Phillies only used defensive replacements for a total of 41 innings while winning 92 games, a tolerable number given he may have left a few and then it went extra innings. Replacements were mostly Bobby Wine (their SS), plus Ruben Amaro, Danny Cater, and Cookie Rojas for a combined 12 innings.
4. BROOKS ROBINSON – The fans and the media kept telling themselves for another 10 years that Brooks was really this good, even when he wasn’t. But in 1964, yes, he was great and a good MVP choice. Stellar fielder at 3B with a 145 OPS+; he sat out only 2 innings all season.
5. MICKEY MANTLE – I know he wasn’t a wide-ranging fielder by now, and he started only 132 games. But an MLB-best 178 OPS+ - albeit in the weaker league – means that even a passable CF gets him here. I can see arguments against, of course.
6. FRANK ROBINSON – Led league in IBB for a 4th consecutive season, 160 OPS+ in 156 G. Not getting a big fielding credit, but still a masher.
7. DEAN CHANCE – Knew he had a great season, was surprised to see how high he was ranked though – til I looked closer. Has the profile I love – led league in ERA+ with a huge one (198) plus IP as well (and shutouts, and only missed Ks by 10). Truly dominant, would be higher if he did this in NL.
8. ELSTON HOWARD – 128 OPS+ as a catcher in 146 G. nice!
9. HANK AARON – 153 OPS+ is Hammerin’ Hank’s LOWEST from 1959-1965, and from 1956-1973 he was below 145 OPS+ just once ( a 142!). Amazing.
10. SANDY KOUFAX – Had 8 quality starts in a row when he went down in mid-August (of course, almost all of his starts in 1963-66 qualified). 188 ERA+ best by 30 pts. Would have finished his career winning 25+ games in each of his last 4 seasons if healthy. Amazing. Brief, but amazing.

Boog Powell was close, but fielding and AL did him in. Clemente also close. Not quite sold that Ron Hansen was THAT dominant a fielder, but could have made a top 15 of mine.
   16. lieiam Posted: September 06, 2011 at 03:54 PM (#3917722)
@ Howie Menckel:
In your comment on Mantle you refer to the AL as the weaker league... but isn't the AL the stronger league? Or at least if I read Dan R's spreadsheet correctly with his WARP1 numbers... Anyone?
   17. DL from MN Posted: September 06, 2011 at 04:31 PM (#3917764)
Dan R has the AL at .983 and the NL at .93. The WARP1 numbers for Menke and Fregosi are very similar (for example). If the NL was stronger I'd have them flipped on the ballot.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: September 06, 2011 at 04:57 PM (#3917782)
I still think the AL is a little weaker in 1964, particularly in terms of offensive leader boards - Mantle isn't competing for 1st vs Aaron, Mays, Clemente, FRobinson, Banks, etc. But I do agree that the difference has been waning per year at this point, and in spite of the Mantle/Chance comments, my ballot wouldn't radically change if I were to be won over. I have a hunch FRobby will hit the AL in 1966 with a bang - and a huge boost to his previous OPS+ to boot.

I have ALers at 4-5-7-8, and with Powell, he wouldn't quite be in my top 10 anyway. But thanks for the note, and I will continue to look at this.
   19. Rick A. Posted: September 07, 2011 at 01:26 AM (#3918201)
I use a combination of WSAB and BR-WAR. I give a catcher's bonus and a league strength adjustment.

1964 Prelim

1. Willie Mays
2. Dick Allen
3. Dean Chance
4. Ron Santo
5. Brooks Robinson
6. Frank Robinson
7. Hank Aaron
8. Boog Powell
9. Mickey Mantle
10. Elston Howard

11-15 Jim Fregosi, Don Drysdale, Roberto Clemente, Sandy Koufax, Dick Radtaz
16-20 Denis Menke, Ron Hansen, Bill Freehan, Pete Ward, Rico Carty
   20. bjhanke Posted: September 07, 2011 at 08:54 AM (#3918426)
This is Brock Hanke’s final ballot. As per my usual, here’s a list of my ballot for easy tabulation, followed by the comments.

1. Willie Mays
2. Richie Allen
3. Ron Santo
4. Dean Chance
5. Brooks Robinson
6. Frank Robinson
7. Jim Fregosi
8. Bob Allison
9. Denis Menke
10. Dick Radatz

1. Willie Mays

In the discussion thread, I made the glib comment that Curt Flood led in, “of course, defense.” BB-Ref WAR does not agree with me. They have Willie Davis at 29 RP (runs prevented), then Mays with 17, then Jackie Brandt with 13, and then Flood with 12. Of the three above Flood, I’m more willing to consider Brandt than the others. Davis is wildly ahead of two guys who are considered among the top 4 defensive CF in history. That is not consistent with his reputation, although his reputation is fine, so I treated it as a system fluke. And, while I remember Brandt as an outstanding glove, he’s over in the AL, where he doesn’t have to compete with Mays and Flood. Still, I’m more willing to buy Brandt than a 33-year-old Mays over a 26-year-old Flood.

Having cleared that up, I do want to say that I think it’s Mays’ glove that has him ending up at the top of all these rankings in his 30s. He’s the only superhitter who is also a superglove. It’s hard to beat that combo with mostly your bat or mostly your glove.

2. Richie Allen

I noticed that I’m not the only one who called him “Richie” here. I started calling him “Dick” just as soon as he expressed the preference, but I think he misunderstood what was going on. I don’t think that fans called him Richie because they were trying to demean him, with or without a racial bias. I think that fans during Richie’s early career simply LIKED him and wanted the name that made him seem closer to them. This happens a lot. Can you imagine calling Mr. Banks “Ernest”? or Billy Williams “Bill”? But it’s definitely Bill White and Frank Robinson, not Billy or Frankie. White and Robinson presented themselves as a bit aloof, very worthy of respect and admiration, but not emotionally close. Richie was devastatingly charming when young. I think that Richie just misunderstood the gesture, and I do wonder if he would have had all the problems he had if he had accepted “Richie” for his whole career, understanding that people were trying to bond with him, not demean him.

3. Ron Santo

The main uberstats I used this year were Win Shares and BB-Ref WAR, which were in the header of the discussion thread. Of the two, I agreed with WS more than WAR. For example, WS has Santo right here at #3, while WAR has him at #7. But WAR also has Drysdale at #3, ahead of Dean Chance. WS doesn’t have Don in the top ten, despite all those IP. These are big differences for the purposes of this project, and I just decided that WS corresponded more with my memories than WAR did. I factored WAR in, of course, and my own memories as well (I was 16 in 1964). But my ballot is heavily driven by Win Shares this year.

4. Dean Chance

Clearly the dominant starter in the game, IMO. WAR does not agree, but I noticed that WAR gives Koufax a higher ranking than WS does, same as for Drysdale, leaving open the possibility of a ballpark issue somewhere. In the absence of other uberstat lists, I went with WS, especially as my memory is that Chance had the season that everyone talked about.

5. Brooks Robinson

I am not a Brooks Robinson fan, having developed an irrational dislike just about as soon as he came up. Can’t really remember why. On the other hand, his defense is undeniable, WS has him at #5, and WAR has him #4. I have no RATIONAL reason to deny that consensus.

BTW, Iieium provided a list of possible other uberstats that he knows where to find. If there were more time before the deadline, I’d certainly use his links to look up bg WAR, WSAB, and f WAR. I don’t trust BP stuff, because it’s so opaque, different BP authors seem to use different methods, work is seldom signed, so I can’t figure out who uses what, and I just plain old don’t trust opaque methods.

6. Frank Robinson

Basically, Willie Mays without the glove and the super speed. There’s never anything special to say about Frank, except that he was involved in one of the weird trades of baseball history. He’s been much more interesting as a manager and an executive than he was as a player.

7. Jim Fregosi

By OPS+, this is Froggy’s top season. And he was only 22. I don’t know what happened. There was an injury, but it wasn’t that serious, and it wasn’t as if Jim collapsed or anything. He just never got any better. He drifted around, a bit below this level, for a few years, and then just faded away very slowly. I would bet that there are VERY few players who played for this many years (18!), but had their peak season at age 22.

8. Bob Allison

Neither WS nor WAR have Allison in the top ten, but he really and truly did dominate the first basemen of the year. He had only 6.2 WAR himself, but the next best 1B had 4.6 (Bill White), and the next best in the AL had 3.7 (Norm Siebern). That’s dominance. The 1960s were a weird decade for 1B.

BTW, the second-worst WAR at the position belong to Philadelphia starter John Herrnstein (-0.7). Mauch’s pitcher usage at the end of the season is usually cited as the main reason for the Philly collapse, but probably the main reason that the Phils lost was that they didn’t build up an even bigger lead because Gene Mauch could not rid himself of the utterly false impression that Herrnstein was a major league starting first baseman. Gene could have literally made random draws from the bench and done better. I have NO idea why management did not pick up someone who could at least hit. Hell, the AAA and/or AA guys were probably better.

9. Denis Menke

Denis is like Bob Allison. His actual WS and WAR do not put him in the Top Ten. But his 6.7 WAR are close, and the next best number in the NL is 2.6 by Dick Schofield (yes, really), sliding in just ahead of Maury Wills and Dick Groat, despite playing only 121 games. But even if Schofield had played 162 games, Menke would still have been disorientingly dominant. The mid-range shortstops are all in the AL, which may be a lot of why Dan’s methods have the AL as stronger than then NL this year.

10. Dick Radatz

Same chapter, third verse. Radatz put up 157 IP without a single start. He went 16-9 without any starts, and also saved 29 games, which led the majors. That was good for 5.2 WAR, which, on its own would not touch the list. But the next best total was Bob Lee’s 3.7, in 20 fewer IP, a 6-5 record, 19 saves, and five starts to compile IP.

Just FYI, Elston Howard came close to the ballot, but he did not dominate other catchers (Freehan, Torre) like the above three dominated their spots. This domination bonus is usually a smaller factor in my analysis, but I only have the two uberstats to work with, along with the traditional stuff from BB-Ref.
   21. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: September 07, 2011 at 12:24 PM (#3918442)
Remember, LgAdj is not a measure of quality of play! It's a measure of standard deviation--how easy it is to exceed average by a given percentage. It's derived from an equation that looks at things like runs per game, years since expansion, etc. You could easily have a Rookie ball league with a very low stdev or a MLB league with a very high stdev. LgAdj basically lets you make apples-to-apples comparisons between leagues and eras in OPS+. But how you determine what the value of a 100 OPS+ is in a given league--as in, what is its quality of play--is entirely up to you, and LgAdj won't help you.
   22. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: September 07, 2011 at 12:27 PM (#3918444)
Any chance we can get an extension? I've been waiting for Alex King to provide team AFR in order to put together my ballot...
   23. DL from MN Posted: September 07, 2011 at 02:17 PM (#3918491)
I don't want to extend more than 48 hours. I'm not sure Alex King is around right now.

9 of last year's voters haven't submitted a ballot yet.
   24. Esteban Rivera Posted: September 07, 2011 at 03:12 PM (#3918555)
1964 MMP Ballot:

1. Dick Allen
2. Willie Mays
3. Dean Chance
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Ron Santo
6. Hank Aaron
7. Frank Robinson
8. Brooks Robinson
9. Elston Howard
10. Boog Powell
   25. lieiam Posted: September 07, 2011 at 03:19 PM (#3918568)
Oops! I had thought that LgAdj actually WAS a measure of league strength.
(Ahem... embarrassed silence).
Looks like I need to change some things around!
   26. fra paolo Posted: September 07, 2011 at 04:43 PM (#3918650)
A rather hurried ballot this time, with the new academic term imminent. I give a lot more weight to WPA/LI than most, and tend, like Brock, to use relative strength to others at the same position as a factor.

1) Willie Mays - I was leaning towards putting Drysdale here, but not having done a prelim, think it would be unfair to the electorate. Mays is the best of the NL outfielders, who overall are looking a little bit weaker than before. Mays consequently stands out all the more.
2) Don Drysdale - Over 300 innings, and beats almost everyone but Mays on WPA/LI. Chance has a bigger advantage over the next best pitcher in his league (Horlen) than Drysdale does over his (Koufax), but I'm giving him the advantage as explained in the Chance comment.
3) Dick Allen
4) Ron Santo - I'm commenting on Santo and Allen together. Allen looks excellent in Win Shares, but Santo has him beat on WPA/LI by about the same percentage amount. So I went to WAR and the Phillies' September Swoon for a tiebreaker. You can't really fault Allen for those last two weeks, as he put up a WPA/LI of 1.4 or about 25 per cent of his full season value. And he beats Santo on WAR. I'd really rather vote both for 3rd and divide the 25 points equally, but we don't do it like that.
5) Dean Chance - Chance doesn't quite stand up to comparison to Drysdale's numbers, having pitched significantly fewer innings in the weaker league.
6) Mickey Mantle - The main reason for favouring him over Powell (who beats him on season WAR) is that Mantle was a key part of the September push that carried the Yankees to the post-season.
7) Frank Robinson - Robinson put in a fine season, but he did it in the same league as Mays, Drysdale, Santo and Allen. That knocked him down a bit. Robinson didn't do as well as Mantle in helping his team make the post-season in crucial late-September games, although that may be more his team-mates' fault.
8) Boog Powell - Powell, Robinson and Mantle, like Santo and Allen, is a distinction really too close to call. Win Shares give the advantage to Mantle, WAR to Robinson.
The last two choices are basically stand-out performances at their position.
9) Jim Fregosi - So much better in raw productivity than any other shortstop in either league (including Menke).
10) Brooks Robinson - It's such a good year for 3B, with Santo and Allen (and Boyer) that this excellent season loses some lustre. I can't swap him with Powell for WPA/LI reasons, and not for Fregosi because Fregosi is more better than other SS than the AL Robinson is than other 3B.

I am a bit surprised that not a single Cardinal made my list. I get the sense that the best teams in the NL were really competitive, and team breadth and luck counted for a lot this season. Really, I found this ballot very competitive, too, and positional considerations were much more important for this season.
   27. Al Peterson Posted: September 07, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3918862)
1964 MMP Final Ballot. The components to ranking include WAR, WARP, WS, OPS+/ERA+, even a sprinkle of WPA. Some trivial notes are added to keep me interested.

1. Willie Mays - 10 of his 47 HRs were in the 1st inning. Get those Giants off to a good start.
2. Dick Allen - Late and Close statline: .385/.456/.659
3. Ron Santo - Batting in Night games: .239/.315/.440 (Cubbie effect?)
4. Dean Chance - 11 Shutouts in 35 GS. That's a wow...
5. Frank Robinson - 4th straight year leading NL in Intentional Walks. Batting line in August of .400/.466/.800
6. Brooks Robinson - MVP got his 5th straight Gold Glove.
7. Elston Howard - 146 games caught, that's a lot of work. Batted pretty well to boot.
8. Hank Aaron - the 30 year old must be in decline with only 24 homers. Clearly on the downside of his career.
9. Mickey Mantle - vs Ground Ball pitchers: .375/.470/.773
10. Boog Powell - AL leader in Slugging percentage.

11-15: Hansen, Fregosi, Drysdale, Clemente, Torre
16-20: Menke, Oliva, Boyer, Allison, Radatz
   28. DL from MN Posted: September 07, 2011 at 08:03 PM (#3918863)
Ballot should be closed but we only have 10 ballots. I'll extend 48 hours but that's it.

edit: I'm rethinking this. Friday is terrible for me. I'm open to a 24 hour extension but then I have to close it up.
   29. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: September 07, 2011 at 08:51 PM (#3918905)
lieiam--No need to be embarrassed. You weren't in the HoM when I was developing the statistic, or party to the extended debate about it. Take a look at the Dan Rosenheck's WARP Data thread if you feel like immersing yourself.
   30. DL from MN Posted: September 07, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3918930)
Put it on the long list of things I've forgotten.
   31. DL from MN Posted: September 07, 2011 at 09:20 PM (#3918936)
No ballot, voted last year:

Nate the Neptunian
Alex King
Dan R
ronw
OCF

No new voters which is a shame. We're "fixing" a mistake this year and creeping forward closer to the present day. I can't imagine the participation will be better for 1911.
   32. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: September 07, 2011 at 10:02 PM (#3918952)
1 Willie Mays (Say hey)
2 Dean Chance (far and away his best year- possibly flukishly so, execrable hitter, was a "name" pitcher, but when I was young I had no idea why)
3 Dick Allen (another guy I only saw the old washed up version of- but he was really something)
4 Jim Fregosi (yes I have him higher than others, I generally use WAR- but recalculate the baseline upward to average rather than replacement level, which vaulted him to #2, accounting for league disparity knocked him back a bit)
5 Sandy Koufax
6 Don Drysdale (16 losses, how do you lose 16 games with an ERA of 2.18? Dodgers were shut out 6 times in his starts for starters- 2 of his last three starts were 1-0 loses, 5 1-0 loses and a 2-0 loss... Drysdale had greater mean average support than Koufax, but that's skewed because Drysdale benefited from 35+ runs in just 3 starts- Koufax never got more than 7 runs in support, but was only shutout twice- Drysdale got 0-2 runs in support 14 times, Koufax 8 times- Koufax runs support was far more efficient;y distributed)
7 Ron Hansen (As I mentioned in the discussion thread, no idea this guy existed, this is where he goes if BBREF WAR's rating for his dee is accurate, if not, if merely average, 15-25th)
8 Brooks Robinson
9 Frank Robinson
10 Hank Aaron


11-20: Whitey Ford, Ron Santo, Denis Menke, Willie Davis, Boog Powell, Chris Short, Juan Marichal, Roberto Clemente, Bob Allison, Pete Ward
   33. OCF Posted: September 08, 2011 at 03:02 AM (#3919218)
I'm not going to get a ballot in this year. Beginning of the semester time crunches, and I never did really get a handle on what to think about the wildly different cases of the top candidates.
   34. bjhanke Posted: September 08, 2011 at 04:51 AM (#3919254)
Dan - Thanks SO much for the comment on what "league adjustment" actually does. I had thought that it was a number derived from looking at players who moved between leagues and seeing what happened to them. I tried to work something like that out back in the 1990s, when I was doing the BBBA (before I passed it to Don Malcolm), but gave it up because the number of players who change leagues is not a large enough sample size. And so I've never used the modern version, because I considered it too dicey. Now that I know what it actually does, I can make some use of it. - Brock
   35. Howie Menckel Posted: September 08, 2011 at 04:59 AM (#3919257)
I think, as a known HOM purist, that a 15-day extension is fine.

#weflooded
   36. DL from MN Posted: September 08, 2011 at 04:58 PM (#3919552)
Ballot closes in 3 hours. I think only ronw has a prelim that hasn't been posted here unless lieiam wants to update his.
   37. lieiam Posted: September 08, 2011 at 07:53 PM (#3919703)
Thanks DL from MN.
I'll post it here now... the order is the same but I'll include the numbers
I use to rank the players.

1- Willie Mays 9795
2- Dick Allen 8977
3- Dean Chance 8562
4- Ron Santo 8506
5- Brooks Robinson 7820
6- Don Drysdale 7563
7- Elston Howard 7533
8- Frank Robinson 7492
9- Hank Aaron 7123
10-Mickey Mantle 6829

11-Ron Hansen 6773
12-Jim Fregosi 6677
13-Denis Menke 6567
14-Sandy Koufax 6556
15-Roberto Clemente 6540
16-Boog Powell 6513
17-Larry Jackson 6425
18-Bill Freehan 6413
19-Bob Allison 6257
20-Tony Oliva 6189
   38. DL from MN Posted: September 08, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3919711)
balloting is closed
   39. ronw Posted: September 08, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3919827)
Whoops.

1. Dick Allen
2. Willie Mays
3. Ron Santo
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Dean Chance
6. Frank Robinson
7. Brooks Robinson
8. Hank Aaron
9. Elston Howard
10. Don Drysdale

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