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Wednesday, November 30, 2011

Most Meritorious Player: 1967 ballot

Here are the specific rules for this election:
Candidate Eligibility: Any North American professional baseball player is eligible for the Most Meritorious Player (MMP) award including players in the top Negro Leagues or independent teams. Voters should consider the player’s on-field contribution to Major League Baseball (MLB) team(s) in that season only. If part of the season was spent outside MLB, that value may be considered as well. However, the player’s on-field contribution should be judged in relation to the highest level major league, not relative to a minor league. A season may include playoff or World Series games but does not include spring training or exhibition games. No credit will be given for games not played due to injury, wartime service or contract holdouts.
Ballot Length: For 1967, each voter should rank 10 players.
Voter eligibility: All voters who did not vote in the previous year’s election must post a preliminary ballot in the ballot discussion thread at least 2 days before voting ends. All voters must fill out a complete ballot. Voters must briefly explain their ballot choices. One person, one vote; anyone determined to have voted with multiple accounts will be banned and their votes will be disallowed. The MMP ballot committee has authority to exclude any ballot that does not meet these requirements.
Scoring: Points will be given in descending order with the highest-ranked player receiving 15 points, the second highest 14 points, and so on until the last player on the ballot receives 6 points. The player with the highest point total will be named the MMP for 1967. In case of a tie, the tiebreaker will be number of 1st place votes. If the first tiebreaker does not determine a winner the players will share the title of Most Meritorious Player.

Balloting will close at 4pm EST on 14 December 2011.

Anyone can vote, even if you haven’t said a word yet in any of the MMP threads. If you missed the last election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 12 December 2011.

fra paolo Posted: November 30, 2011 at 08:30 PM | 30 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: November 30, 2011 at 10:39 PM (#4003990)
Hot topics
   2. DL from MN Posted: November 30, 2011 at 10:40 PM (#4003993)
Long balloting period this time because we're competing for time with the HoM voting. We'll be back to a 1 week ballot in January for 1968.
   3. fra paolo Posted: November 30, 2011 at 10:47 PM (#4003999)
I thought we kept it open for two weeks, except when I was late putting up the thread. Actually, maybe it's ten days.
   4. DL from MN Posted: November 30, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#4004003)
7-10 days is typical. 7 days is probably enough.
   5. DL from MN Posted: November 30, 2011 at 10:58 PM (#4004007)
1967 MMP Ballot

1) Carl Yastrzemski - He laps the field this year and then has a great postseason as well
2) Ron Santo - 4th straight year in my top 5
3) Henry Aaron - Back after a year's absence
4) Roberto Clemente
5) Bill Freehan - I give catchers a bonus to make up for everything WAR doesn't measure
6) Harmon Killebrew - 1st time on my ballot after hanging around in the teens, good year with the glove at 1B
7) Al Kaline - missed time drops him down, terrific rate stats
8) Frank Robinson
9) Tim McCarver - good year for catchers, terrible year for pitchers
10) Brooks Robinson

11-15) Rico Petrocelli, Orlando Cepeda, Jim Bunning, Paul Blair, Joe Morgan
16-20) Dick Allen, Adolfo Phillips, Joel Horlen, Jim Fregosi, Tony Gonzalez
   6. lieiam Posted: December 01, 2011 at 12:33 AM (#4004075)
My usual method, using 7 uberstat systems. No postseason bonus. 10% catcher bonus.

1- Carl Yastrzemski 10000
2- Ron Santo 8592 (and keeping my fingers crossed that maybe, just maybe, he'll finally get into the Hall of Fame)
3- Roberto Clemente 7719
4- Hank Aaron 7671
5- Harmon Killebrew 7575
6- Tim McCarver 7021
7- Al Kaline 6909
8- Jim Bunning 6841
9- Orlando Cepeda 6807
10-Bill Freehan 6422

11-Frank Robinson 6326
12-Brooks Robinson 6000
13-Paul Blair 5918
14-Dick Allen 5903
15-Adolfo Phillips 5425
16-Jim Ray Hart 5420
17-Joe Horlen 5395
18-Tony Gonzalez 5346
19-Ted Abernathy 5243
20-Jimmy Wynn 5207

Yaz in a runaway!
   7. John DiFool2 Posted: December 01, 2011 at 01:04 AM (#4004096)
1. Yaz. Classic season, the kind books are written about. Wish I was old enough to enjoy it originally.
2. Santo. Criminally underrated, both in this season and for his career.
3. Clemente. Not known for his OBP, but it was .400, in a pitcher's league.
4. Aaron. Roberto gets the edge because BBRef shows his D as being down, which I suspect is from a SSS issue (Clemente still had 18 assists). Well Hank's was down too, but Clemente's baseline was higher.
5. Bunning. Underrated season from the 17-15 record, but tons of innings thrown at a very high level. 17 unearned runs however, FWIW.
6. Killer. Again, adjusting for defensive baseline puts Kaline below Killer in otherwise very comparable offensive seasons.
7. Kaline. Missed 30 games, or he'd be much higher.
8. Cepeda. I'll go with the bat over the glove here.
9. Brooksie. The glove, to the tune of +32 runs.
10. Gary Nolan. I think his season is a tad better overall than Tom Terrific's, but he paid a terrible price for it later.
   8. Rob_Wood Posted: December 01, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#4004469)
My 1967 MMP ballot:

1. Carl Yastrzemski - Triple crown for Impossible Dream BoSox
2. Ron Santo - great underrated season, very good defensive season
3. Roberto Clemente - just a smidge behind Santo, 400 OBA and league leader in WPA
4. Orlando Cepeda - slight bonus for team success + very good WPA stats
5. Hank Aaron - led NL in SLG, also great WPA stats

6. Harmon Killebrew - very good season (moderate AL penalty)
7. Al Kaline - only 131 games (actually not that many great AL seasons this year)
8. Jim Bunning - led NL pitchers with 302 IP, 40 GS, 253 SO and 8.3 WAR
9. Bill Freehan - all around very good season (147 games caught)
10. Dick Allen - great season ended with infamous hand injury with car headlight in late August

11. Tim McCarver - probably his best season (136 OPS+)
12. Frank Robinson - would be higher but only 129 games (head injury in June)
13. Paul Blair - great defensive center fielder had his best offensive season
14. Jim Ray Hart - slugging third baseman with pretty brutal defense
15. Willie McCovey - slugger with very good WPA stats

16. Lou Brock - good season with moderate post-season boost
17. Frank Howard - low-average slugger (mid-sixties is his best era?)
18. Brooks Robinson - great defensive third baseman with good offensive season
19. Jimmy Wynn - low-average power season
20. Tony Gonzalez - season value mostly in 339 batting average

21-25. Billy Williams, Jim Fregosi, Rusty Staub, Adolfo Phillips, Dean Chance
26-30. Joe Morgan, Gary Nolan, Curt Flood, Tom Seaver, Ted Abernathy
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 01, 2011 at 10:27 PM (#4004658)
Official ballot (No postseason bonus and deducting 5% off of all AL players)

1) Carl Yastrzemski - Best player of 1967.
2) Ron Santo - Best NL player.
3) Roberto Clemente - Best ML right fielder.
4) Harmon Killebrew - Best ML first baseman.
5) Orlando Cepeda - Best NL first baseman
6) Tim McCarver - Best ML catcher.
7) Hank Aaron - Always a contender.
8) Dick Allen - Has been on my ballot ever year since his rookie one.
9) Ted Abernathy - Best ML pitcher (yeah, that's not saying much).
10) Al Kaline - Best AL right fielder.
   10. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 01, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#4004660)
Long balloting period this time because we're competing for time with the HoM voting. We'll be back to a 1 week ballot in January for 1968.


You probably should announce it on the Yahoo! site, DL.
   11. Chris Fluit Posted: December 01, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#4004661)
1967 Ballot

1. Carl Yastrzemski, LF, Boston Red Sox: 193 OPS+, 155 Runs Created, +23 fielding runs- an easy number one.

2. Ron Santo, 3B, Chicago Cubs: 153 OPS+, 120 Runs Created, +18 fielding runs at 3B

3. Roberto Clemente, RF, Pittsburgh Pirates: 174 OPS+, 126 RC, +4 RF

4. Hank Aaron, RF, Atlanta Braves: 171 OPS+, 126 RC, +1 RF- slightly better rate and slightly better defense push Clemente ahead of Aaron

5. Harmon Killebrew, 1B, Minnesota Twins: 174 OPS+, 131 RC, -4 fielding runs at 1B

6. Jim Bunning, P, Philadelphia Phillies: 149 ERA+, 302 innings- the best combination of innings and rate

7. Frank Robinson, RF, Baltimore Orioles: 187 OPS+, 113 RC, -10 RF

8. Al Kaline, RF, Detroit Tigers: 176 OPS+, 104 RC, +10 RF- the defense is almost enough to close the gap with Robinson

9. Ted Abernathy, RP, Cincinnati Reds: 299 ERA+, 106 innings, 5.8 WAR

10. Dick Allen, 3B, Philadelphia Phillies: 174 OPS+, 109 RC, -15 at 3B

11. Bill Freehan, C, Detroit Tigers
12. Orlando Cepeda, 1B, St. Louis Cardinals
13. Phil Niekro, P, Atlanta Braves
14. Tim McCarver, C, St. Louis Cardinals
15. Jim Ray Hart, 3B, San Francisco Giants
   12. OCF Posted: December 02, 2011 at 01:21 AM (#4004785)
9) Ted Abernathy - Best ML pitcher (yeah, that's not saying much).

Better than Bunning? I'm having a hard time buying that.
   13. DL from MN Posted: December 02, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#4005090)
John DiFool2 - please post a prelim in the discussion thread. It's kind of a silly rule when you're one of the first in the thread but it is the rule.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2011 at 03:40 AM (#4008783)
1967 ballot
First time I’m voting for stats on baseball cards I bought the following spring. Still have ‘em all, too.

1. CARL YASTRZEMSKI – Thunderous 193 OPS+ in 161 G (FRobby had a 187 in 129 G) on a pennant-winner thanks to his September heroics. Leads league in WAR and offensive WAR, 2nd in defensive WAR to Brooks. Triple Crown winner also led in SLG, OBP, R, H, TB, RC, Adjusted Batting R, XBH, Times on Base, Offensive W Pct, Base-Out Runs Added, Win Probability Added, Situational Wind Added, Base-Out Wins Added. Then he hit .400 in the World Series with 3 HR and a 1.340 OPS. Any questions?
2. RON SANTO – The last of his four straight spectacular seasons for this Hall of Famer. Santo led in both offensive and defensive WAR, 6th in OPS+, leads in BB and SF but nobody notices.
3. ROBERTO CLEMENTE – He’s not getting older, he’s getting better. Career-high 172 OPS+, leads NL in AVG, H, RC, WPA and 2nd in adj OPS+. Could almost have stolen 2nd place, but he missed 15 games.
4. HANK AARON – Hank still Hammerin’ with 168 OPS+, leads in HR, R, SLG, TB, RC. Very similar to Clemente, loses defensive battle.
5. AL KALINE – 176 OPS+ is stellar, and still helping the Tigers defensively. Coulda been 3rd, but only 131 G, barely beats Killebrew.
6. HARMON KILLEBREW – Defense, schemefense – 174 OPS+, 131 BB, 161 G, 44 HR: This guy was a force of nature offensively even with a .269 AVG.
7. FRANK ROBINSON – 187 OPS+ - but only in 122 G and not helping defensively, either. Tough to slot these 3 AL hitters, though they are the cream of the crop for sure beyond Yaz in AL. Any order would be fine by me.
8. JIM BUNNING – Niekro-Horlen-Peters had better ERAs but not the IP like Bunning’s MLB-best 302. Best in adj Pitching Wins/Runs, too. 149 ERA+ 2nd only to Niekro, who had almost 100 fewer IP with only 20 starts.
9. ORLANDO CEPEDA – 164 OPS+ in 151 G is good enough to go here even with defensive qualms.
10. DICK ALLEN – I know, the iron glove. Only 122 G. 174 OPS+, though, and I just don’t have a great fondness for any other candidate.


Joe(l) Horlen came next closest. Someone mentioned Freehan; not quite but an interesting and reasonable choice.
   15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2011 at 09:24 PM (#4009514)
Better than Bunning? I'm having a hard time buying that.


I meant most valuable among pitchers, but I know not everybody will even agree with that.
   16. sunnyday2 Posted: December 08, 2011 at 02:59 PM (#4010013)
1967 Ballot

1. Carl Yastrzemski (was #1 on my prelim). One of the easier choices of a decade filled with easy choices.

2. Ron Santo (was #4). There's only two possibilities here. Killebrew has an edge on offense but Santo's defensive edge is bigger.

3. Harmon Killebrew (was #2). 131 BB ain't chopped liver, guys. But to those who aren't Killebrew fans particularly, I just have to say that in this particular season I don't see anybody else that I want at #3. F. Robby and Kaline are the next best ALers and played 129 and 131 games, respectively. Nobody questioned Cepeda at the time but he was clearly, now, no better and probably not as good as Aaron or Clemente. Nobody jumps out. Except, well, Harmon.

4. Roberto Clemente (was #5). Very close call among Clemente, Cepeda and Aaron.
5. Hank Aaron (was #6).
6. Orlando Cepeda (#4).

(Big Gap)

7. Al Kaline (was #7). Only 131 games but he was productive when in the lineup.
8. Frank Robinson (was #11). Only 129 games but he was productive when in the lineup.
9. Bill Freehan (was #10). Virtually indistinguishable from Tim McCarver but here he is.
10. Lou Brock (was #9).

Close But No Cigar

11. Tim McCarver and that's about it.
   17. stanmvp48 Posted: December 08, 2011 at 03:40 PM (#4010035)
I hadn't given much thought to the NL MVP that year until now. Seems a little debateable.
   18. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2011 at 03:57 PM (#4010050)
There hasn't been any debate here as to who the NL MMP should be. It is unanimous so far.
   19. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2011 at 07:21 PM (#4011606)
Balloting ends next Wednesday. So far we have 6 official ballots. I can't count the ballot from John DiFool because he hasn't participated in the discussion thread and hasn't voted previously. A simple post about "Why Gary Nolan instead of 10 other guys" would do.
   20. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:55 PM (#4011734)
I think we need a minimum number to close balloting - 12? 15?

I had thought we might have a problem getting ballots in years like this, when the answer is so obvious, which is why originally I expected us to focus on the 'unclear years' only.
Plus it's December.
   21. DL from MN Posted: December 12, 2011 at 04:45 PM (#4013905)
15 would mean we would not have closed balloting on previous elections.

I think 10 ballots is a "quorum".
   22. OCF Posted: December 13, 2011 at 08:07 AM (#4014825)
Not breaking any new ground with this ballot.

1. Carl Yastrzemski
2. Ron Santo
3. Roberto Clemente
4. Hank Aaron
5. Frank Robinson
6. Harmon Killebrew
7. Orlando Cepeda
8. Jim Bunning
9. Dick Allen
10. Al Kaline

I wanted to put Lou Brock #10, citing his postseason, but I couldn't quite do it.
   23. DL from MN Posted: December 13, 2011 at 04:47 PM (#4015027)
No ballots from

Johnny Fora
Rick A
bjhanke
Al Peterson
Alex King
Nate the Neptunian
Esteban Rivera
Dan R
ronw
Yardape
fra paulo
   24. Yardape Posted: December 13, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#4015534)
I'll take one name off that list:

1. Carl Yastrzemski Even with a discount for the AL being slightly weaker, Yaz makes it up with a great World Series. No one else was close anyways.
2. Ron Santo Another great year. Not hard to see why he's in both Halls now, just hard to see why it took so long.
3. Jim Bunning Not a great year for pitchers, but I think Bunning was clearly the best.
4. Hank Aaron Nice bounceback year from Hammerin' Hank.
5. Roberto Clemente
6. Tim McCarver A great season at a key position for the World Champs.
7. Harmon Killebrew Really close to Clemente and McCarver.
8. Frank Robinson His 1966 was a tough act to follow, but another strong year.
9. Al Kaline
10. Orlando Cepeda

If I was picking an All-Star team, I'd need to add Joe Morgan at 2B, Rico Petrocelli at SS and Paul Blair in CF. Not a great year for any of those positions.
   25. Rick A. Posted: December 13, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#4015627)
1967 MMP Ballot

I use a combination of WSAB, bWAR, OPS+, ERA+, IP, PA, LI for relievers and a small catcher's bonus. I do not give a postseason credit.

1. Carl Yastrzemski
2. Ron Santo
3. Harmon Killebrew
4. Roberto Clemente
5. Hank Aaron
6. Tim McCarver
7. Jim Bunning
8. Ted Abernathy
9. Orlando Cepeda
10. Al Kaline

11-15 F.Robinson,Dick Allen,Bill Freehan,Jim Ray Hart, Lou Brock
   26. bjhanke Posted: December 14, 2011 at 10:41 AM (#4016045)
Here's Brock Hanke's ballot for 1967. As usual, the list is first, for easy tabulating, then the same list with comments:

1. Yaz
2. Santo
3. Clemente
4. Aaron
5. Killebrew
6. Cepeda
7. Kaline
8. Brock
9. Freehan
10. McCarver

1. Yaz
Consensus

2. Santo
WAR that dominates everyone except Yaz. Win Shares has him one behind Killebrew, but WAR has Killebrew WAY behind.

3. Clemente
Next highest Win Shares, next highest WAR. I ain't arguing with that.

4. Aaron
There is a large dropoff in Win Shares between Aaron at 34 and Mc Carver at 31. The next two guys on this list are the ones, other than Yaz, Santo and Clemente, with WS higher than 34. There are a few guys with WAR in Aaron's league, but they are way down on the Win Shares list.

5. Killebrew
Harmon has the #2 Win Shares, with 38, but is down to 7.1 WAR, beneath Aaron's 8.2. Generally, I have a lot of faith in Win Shares, but even I find those 38 hard to believe.

6. Cepeda
The last guy with Win Shares above 31 (35). According to Bob Gibson in Sixty Feet Six Inches, Cepeda really was the cheery clubhouse leader that he is in legend, but that doesn't count here.

7. Kaline
Higher WAR than anyone here below Aaron, but only 30 Win Shares.

8. Brock
There is a pretty large cluster of Win Shares between 28 and 31, including McCarver, F. Robby, Jim Ray Hart, Dick Allen, Billy Williams, Frank Howard, Brock, Kaline, and Freehan. Lou here has the fewest WAR, but he also has that World Series. And, at his job, there was nobody better. He tied with Aaron for the league lead in Runs Scored, and scoring individual runs, in the lousy environment of 1967, counts for a lot. He would be higher except that he made a lot of outs as well as runs, and those count, too. Also, WAR is his weak point, but he actually ranks by WAR as the best NL left fielder, and only behind Yaz in all of baseball.

9. Bill Freehan
Win Shares has him a little below McCarver; WAR has him a little above. I saw him play occasionally, and I was blown away by his glove. If anything, I think I may have underrated him.

10. Tim McCarver
Back to "Sixty Feet." Bob Gibson talked about McCarver, and just admitted what all we fans thought we saw - a lousy throwing arm at a time period when that could hurt you. Gibson does say that McCarver was outstanding at calling games and understanding tempermental pitchers, by which Gibby meant himself and Steve Carlton.

I would certainly have voted for Bob Gibson somewhere, given the World Series, except that he missed 2 months of the season with an injury, and there's no way to make up that much volume. Besides, I have 3 guys from the Cardinals already here, and only one Red Sock, and I'm not sure about that. McCarver, for example, hit #6 in his lineup. That doesn't suggest MMP to me, but his WS and WAR do.
   27. fra paolo Posted: December 14, 2011 at 04:11 PM (#4016138)
Once again, I let WPA/LI influence my ballot a lot, plus I look at the 'leverage' of games in relation to WPA/LI. My ballot leads with American Leaguers, reflecting the exciting race, but is quickly dominated by the National League stars.

1 Carl Yastrzemski dominates all the charts.
2 Joe Horlen delivered 258 innings, with a league-leading ERA and 6 shut outs in a season where his team featured in a tight pennant race. He was so much better than any other AL pitcher in my system (Gary Peters and Jim Merritt would be next), that I gave him some extra credit.
3 Harmon Killebrew put in a stellar season in WPA/LI terms, and led the league in dingers.
4 Jim Bunning
5 Ferguson Jenkins
6 Gaylord Perry I'm forced to treat these three NL pitchers as a set as their merit is pretty well even. Bunning pitched the most so opportunity equals merit in such an even-steven set of cases. Jenkins over Perry because of the complete games.
7 Ron Santo might seem a bit low here, but he doesn't show up all that well in the WPA/LI category. Some of you will certainly say 'that's why I don't pay it any attention', but I have to disagree. We can't hold Santo responsible for his poor showing, which may be a consequence of his manager's decisions. But we still have to account for it. He's also hurt in my system by his team not really being in a race.
8 Hank Aaron was seriously 'clutch' in this season, as well as having lots of power.
9 Roberto Clemente
10 Orlando Cepeda Both of these chaps contributed more value than Kaline in the AL, it pains me to say. Clemente has a bit more ueberstat value, so gets ahead of Cepeda.

I had Frank Robinson on my ballot originally, but at the last minute I changed my mind and slotted Aaron and Cepeda ahead of him. This trio seem to me to be at about the same level of merit, and in some ways Robinson is better than the two NL stars. So I note here that on another day, Robinson's 'honourable mention' might actually translate into a ballot place.

EDIT: I had to reorder the bottom of the ballot when I realized I had made a data error. Thank goodness I caught it while I could still edit.
   28. Al Peterson Posted: December 14, 2011 at 08:22 PM (#4016440)
1967 Final MMP Ballot. The top guy is a shocker! The components to ranking include WAR, WARP, WS, OPS+/ERA+, even a sprinkle of WPA. Some random factoids are given, take what you will from them.

1. Carl Yastrzemski - Geez, what didn't he lead the AL in battingwise. That Sept/Oct line again: .417/.504/.760 in 113 PA. This isn't during the offense happy 2000's.
2. Ron Santo - Not bad for starting the year hitting .160 in April. Excelled defensively this year to push ranking up.
3. Hank Aaron - Led NL in R, HR, and TB. When batting with 2 outs & RISP he had 9 HRs in 67 PA. That some slugging...
4. Roberto Clemente - Last of his 4 batting titles. Him and Aaron grade out almost exactly the same this year.
5. Harmon Killebrew - Not bad for only hitting .269. Hit .339 with 2 outs.
6. Orlando Cepeda - Baby Bull parlayed many RBIs into the MVP. 5 HRs in 8 games @ Wrigley Field.
7. Al Kaline - Hit .377 in April. Season slightly derailed by injury.
8. Jim Bunning - 300 IP go a long way, especially when you pitch well in addition. Record not so good due to getting run support of 2 or fewer 16 times.
9. Frank Robinson - Had a September swoon (.240/.299/.413). O's weren't in the race but did hurt the MMP chances.
10. Tim McCarver - slight C bonus applied to him and Freehan. 2nd in NL in AB per SO. Batted .348 1st half of year, .245 2nd half.

11. Dick Allen
12. Paul Blair
13. Bill Freehan
14. Jim Ray Hart
15. Gary Nolan
   29. DL from MN Posted: December 14, 2011 at 10:38 PM (#4016581)
Balloting is closed. John DiFool2 ballot will NOT count.
   30. sunnyday2 Posted: December 28, 2011 at 05:31 PM (#4024338)
Never mind.

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