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Wednesday, November 02, 2011

Most Meritorious Player: 1967 Discussion

The American League saw one of its more exciting pennant races, in the penultimate year of non-divisional play. By contrast, the National League found the St Louis Cardinals in first place on 18 June 1967, and they never looked back. The St Louis Cardinals beat the Boston Red Sox in the World Series.

                  Win       BB-ref
                 Shares       WAR
Carl Yastrzemski 43  	12.2
Harmon Killebrew 38  	 7.1	
Ron Santo 37  	10.2
Roberto Clemente 36  	 8.2
Orlando Cepeda 	35  	 7.1
Hank Aaron 	34  	 8.2
Tim McCarver	31  	 6.0
Al Kaline	30	 7.3
Lou Brock	30	 5.1
Frank Robinson	29	 6.0
Jim Ray Hart	29	 5.9
Dick Allen	29	 5.9
Bill Freehan	28	6.3
Billy Williams	28	 4.7
Frank Howard	28	 4.7
Paul Blair	25	6.7
Adolfo Phillips	25	6.3
Jim Bunning	24	8.3
Brooks Robinson	24	7.1
Tom Seaver	20	6.7
Gary nolan	20	6.5
Chris Short	16	5.9


fra paolo Posted: November 02, 2011 at 08:29 PM | 56 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: November 02, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#3985238)
Remarkably weak year for pitchers compared to 1966.
Bunning was head and shoulders above other pitchers, went only 17-15, run support wasn't terrible 3.94 per start- but its' distribuition was remarkably inefficient- 6 times the Phils were shut out, 7 other times only scored once, otoh he got 9 runs, 10, 12 and 14 in other games...
5 starts were lost 0-1, one lost 0-2, another lost 1-2, and two lost 1-3, he also won 1-0, 2-0, and 2-1 games... Career nosedived afterwards, 1967 was last year as an elite pitcher, worked awfully hard 65-67, averaging 300ip

Koufax was retired, Gibson and Marichal had off years, Carlton and Seaver were not yet Carlton and Seaver... It should have been Bunning's year but the Phil's offense was just not cooperative- poor offense, one great hitter, a couple good hitters... and no mediocre ones, seemingly everyone else was horrible- team should have been easily (as these things go) "fixable", but it wasn't, the bad players were not replaced with good or even average players, the good players either got old and ineffective or were traded... Starting with 1966 the Phillies won 87, 82, 76, 63, 73, 67, 59- there had been a core there in the early to mid 60s but it was squandered.
   2. fra paolo Posted: November 02, 2011 at 11:41 PM (#3985355)
Sorry for the skimpy introduction. I am in the middle of half-term marking.
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: November 03, 2011 at 01:44 AM (#3985455)
Many of us have a little trepidation about what "clutch" is, but iirc this stretch run by Yaz was epic, with the "must win this game" bonus pts to boot.

I think he wins in a walk, but will he be unanimous?
   4. OCF Posted: November 03, 2011 at 01:45 AM (#3985456)
This particular thread should move slowly - in particular, don't we need to get a regular Hall of Merit election done before we open this up to voting?

Which is good because it will give me more time to bring things up - just don't expect it to have all that much to do with who the top 10 players were. Yes - 1967. The year I discovered the joys of transistor radios and listening to night games after I'd gone to bed. Sometimes a local station, but sometimes KMOX from several hundred miles away, on ionospheric skip, with the characteristic fading in and out.

I'm going to be pretty busy the next couple of days (including a test to grade tonight). When I get around to talking about pitchers, expect to hear about Dick Hughes and Nelson Briles. In fact, go look up Hughes right now - a 29 year old rookie, and 1967 constitutes a sizable majority of his entire career value. But if you're going to do that - pack most of your career into a single season - you'd want to do it the way he did.

The basic narrative for Gibson: for the most part he was not having a good year by his own standards (go find the game in which he allowed 9 runs in the first inning before Schoendienst got him out of there). With the team locked in a pennant race, he took a Roberto Clemente line drive off his shin, breaking a bone. He was out with the broken leg for something like 7 weeks. While he was gone, the Cardinals ran away with the pennant. But Gibson didn't come back to merely resume his off-year. No, he came back as a fire-breathing monster, and remained a fire-breathing monster through the WS and through and beyond the entire next season.

Oh, and the MMP for the first half of April was Lou Brock.
   5. Rob_Wood Posted: November 03, 2011 at 02:17 AM (#3985479)
Orlando Cepeda led "El Birdos" to the NL championship in his first full year in St. Louis. 1967 was the beginning of the end for Willie Mays after 13 years as an elite player.

Of course, Carl Yastrzemski won the triple crown in the AL for the "Impossible Dream" 1967 BoSox, finishing the season with a flourish (three teams could have won the pennant on the final day of the season) to win Boston's first pennant since 1946.

The 1967 World Series went the distance with Bob Gibson outpitching Jim Lonborg (on two days rest) in game 7.
   6. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 03, 2011 at 02:49 AM (#3985498)
iirc this stretch run by Yaz was epic, with the "must win this game" bonus pts to boot.

This is wry understatement, I assume?
   7. DanG Posted: November 03, 2011 at 03:24 AM (#3985518)
The customary survey of the top 'pen men of 1967

Rk           Player WAR ERA+    WPA  WHIP  G GF GS    IP Age  Tm Lg  W L SV  ERA  OPS
1     Ted Abernathy 5.8  299  4.776 0.978 70 61  0 106.1  34 CIN NL  6 3 28 1.27 .463
2       Frank Linzy 3.3  223  2.036 1.056 57 44  0  95.2  26 SFG NL  7 7 17 1.51 .523
3         Al McBean 3.2  132 
-0.413 1.229 51 21  8 131.0  29 PIT NL  7 4  4 2.54 .644
4        Bill Hands 3.2  145  0.394 1.213 49 21 11 150.0  27 CHC NL  7 8  6 2.46 .638
5      Turk Farrell 2.6  146  1.266 1.051 57 36  1 103.2  33 TOT NL 10 6 12 2.34 .591
6     Moe Drabowsky 2.3  198  1.785 0.955 43 26  0  95.1  31 BAL AL  7 5 12 1.60 .545
7         Dick Hall 2.2  156  2.001 1.105 48 37  1  86.0  36 PHI NL 10 8  8 2.20 .640
8    Ron Perranoski 2.0  126  2.408 1.291 70 47  0 110.0  31 LAD NL  6 7 16 2.45 .632
9      Hoyt Wilhelm 1.8  230  3.814 1.034 49 30  0  89.0  44 CHW AL  8 3 12 1.31 .497
10       Ron Taylor 1.8  145  0.209 1.137 50 31  0  73.0  29 NYM NL  4 6  8 2.34 .577
11       Eddie Watt 1.7  141  1.393 1.003 49 22  0 103.2  26 BAL AL  3 5  8 2.26 .529
12    Fred Gladding 1.6  165  0.834 1.052 42 25  1  77.0  31 DET AL  6 4 12 1.99 .590
13         Roy Face 1.6  139  0.492 1.130 61 45  0  74.1  39 PIT NL  7 5 17 2.42 .604
14     Dave Baldwin 1.6  185  1.568 1.063 58 26  0  68.2  29 WSA AL  2 4 12 1.70 .563
15    Don Nottebart 1.6  197  0.332 1.185 47 18  0  79.1  31 CIN NL  0 3  4 1.93 .650
16       John Wyatt 1.6  136  2.468 1.179 60 43  0  93.1  32 BOS AL 10 7 20 2.60 .642 
   8. OCF Posted: November 03, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#3985521)
Neither of the Cardinals' go-to relievers, Hoerner or Willis, make that list - in part because the job was split between them, and neither was used particularly heavily.

Since bb-ref makes it easy to do so, just for grins I isolated off the last 12 games of the season for Yastrzemski. 8 games on the road, 4 at home, and the Red Sox went 8-4. In those 12 games, Yaz went .523/.604/.955, with 5 HR, 14 R, and 16 RBI. Even though the season was nearly over, he raised his seasonal BA by .016, his OBA by .015, and his SLG by .028. And he stayed hot in the World Series.
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 03, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3985956)
Prelim (No postseason bonus and deducting 5% off of all AL players)

1) Yaz (should be unanimous, IMO)
2) Ron Santo
3) Roberto Clemente
4) Harmon Killebrew
5) Orlando Cepeda
6) Tim McCarver
7) Hank Aaron
8) Dick Allen
9) Ted Abernathy
10) Al Kaline
   10. OCF Posted: November 03, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3985987)
Prelim (No postseason bonus

If anyone does think in terms of postseason bonuses - is there enough there for Brock to sniff the top 10?

Schoendienst did something interesting with the batting order - he didn't platoon the lineup (mostly - Maris took more of his days off vs. LHP) but he did platoon shuffle the order.

Vs. RHP: 1. Brock, 2. Flood, 3. Maris, 4. Cepeda, 5. McCarver, 6. Shannon, 7. Javier, 8. Maxvill, 9. Pitcher

Vs. LHP: 1. Brock, 2. Javier, 3. Flood, 4. Cepeda, 5. Shannon, 6. McCarver, 7. Maris/other RF, 8. Maxvill, 9 Pitcher

(I might have 6/7 flipped for LHP.)

Cepeda won the actual NL MVP overwhelmingly, which is a strong case of "winning team" bias. The case for him ahead of Santo and Clemente ... does not hold up to further scrutiny.
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 03, 2011 at 08:08 PM (#3985999)
If anyone does think in terms of postseason bonuses - is there enough there for Brock to sniff the top 10?

On my ballot, it's possible he could make #10.
   12. Chris Fluit Posted: November 03, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3986028)

1. Carl Yastrzemski, Boston LF
2. Ron Santo, Chicago 3B
3. Roberto Clemente, Pittsburgh RF
4. Harmon Killebrew, Minnesota 1B
5. Hank Aaron, Atlanta RF- finally, I disagree with Grandma Murphy
6. Jim Bunning, Philadelphia P
7. Frank Robinson, Baltimore RF
8. Al Kaline, Detroit RF- 6 through 8 are all very close and could easily switch by the final
9. Ted Abernathy, Cincinnati RP
10. Dick Allen, Philadelphia 3B

11. Bill Freehan
12. Orlando Cepeda
13. Phil Niekro
14. Tim McCarver
15. Jim Ray Hart
16. Joe Horlen- the top AL pitcher
   13. OCF Posted: November 03, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#3986084)
Joe Horlen- the top AL pitcher

Somehow I always remember seeing his name in print as "Joel". Anyone else remember it that way?
   14. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 03, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3986104)
Somehow I always remember seeing his name in print as "Joel". Anyone else remember it that way?

Yes. However, there's an AP dispatch from Horlen's 1967 no-hitter on Newspaper Archive that calls him "Joel", while the accompanying picture calls him "Joe".

1967 was one of the few times that a reigning MVP (Clemente) had a better year than his MVP and didn't win the award.

-- MWE
   15. OCF Posted: November 04, 2011 at 12:13 AM (#3986160)
1967 was one of the few times that a reigning MVP (Clemente) had a better year than his MVP and didn't win the award.

Andre Dawson was better in 1988 than he was in 1987. Of course, that gets into the whole 1987 story ...

And while I don't know about "better," I think that Barry Larkin had a pretty solid follow-up to his MVP.

I'm sure you can find other cases, although the likes of Musial, Mantle, or Mays might fall into some other category.
   16. bjhanke Posted: November 04, 2011 at 02:04 AM (#3986209)
RE: comment #10 -

What was happening there was that Schoendienst (or Gibson) was platooning Javier and Maris in terms of where they hit in the lineup. Javier was quite famous for his inability to hit a righty curve ball, even a bad one. He just panicked and bailed out. Maris was having troubles with lefties, possibly because he'd moved from a park with a very short RF line to one with a large RF territory in general.

The "or Gibson" comes from Curt Flood's autobiography The Way It Is, which I highly recommend. Flood says, essentially, that Schoendienst was a lousy in-game manager, and so Gibson would sit on the bench nearby him and say things like, "Gee. there's a couple of power lefty hitters coming up after this guy. I'll bet ol' Red will be on the phone to the bullpen any minute now." And Red would get up and call the bullpen.

Red managed the Cards for most of the 1970s. This was the period where the Cards had a lot of talent, but could never win. The problem, I have from various sources, was that Ted Simmons and Keith Hernandez had seized control of the club from Red. Red was simply too passive a manager (the Harvey Kuenn model - just go out there and get 'em, guys). When Whitey Herzog came along, the biggest problem he had was convincing the Cardinal stars that Whitey was the manager and they were not. They weren't used to a real manager. They were used to Red. Whitey got rid of the worst troublemakers (cocaine use was involved as well) and ended up with plenty of talent to win with. Just another example of how a laid-back manager can be a help when your squad is wound too tight, but you can't stay with him for too many years, or he'll lose the clubhouse completely.

- Brock Hanke
   17. bjhanke Posted: November 04, 2011 at 02:14 AM (#3986211)
Brock Hanke's prelim, as he starts to wade into the Hall of Merit for 2012, and may not have much time to work on this project:

1. Carl Yastrzemski
2. Ron Santo
3. Roberto Clemente
4. Harmon Killebrew
5. Hank Aaron
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Lou Brock
8. Tim McCarver
9. Al Kaline
10. Bill Freehan
   18. Rob_Wood Posted: November 04, 2011 at 02:28 AM (#3986214)
In putting together my 1967 consideration set, I found the following players worthy of a serious look (in addition to those listed in the intro above):

Tony Gonzalez
Jimmy Wynn
Willie McCovey
Rusty Staub
Curt Flood
Joe Morgan

All played in the NL in 1967.
   19. sunnyday2 Posted: November 04, 2011 at 06:37 PM (#3986589)

1. Yaz. I don't know if he should be unanimous or not, but he should win.

2. Killebrew. WS likes, WAR not so much.
3. Santo. WS and WAR both like him.
4. Cepeda. An obvious MVP pick, and not the worst, but in hindsight not the best either. #8 in WAR.
5. Clemente. #4 in both WS and WAR.
6. Aaron. #4 in WAR, #5 in WS.
7. Kaline
8. McCarver
9. Brock
10. Freehan

11. F. Robinson
12. Hart. Who?
13. Lonborg, Wow, top pitcher way down here.
14. Bunning. WAR and Chris like, WS and me not so much.
15. B. Williams
   20. OCF Posted: November 04, 2011 at 11:17 PM (#3986779)
I'm amused by bjhanke's take on the relationship between Gibson and Schoendienst. It sounds like that would only work well when Gibson was sitting on the bench. In this game, what was Gibson supposed to do, anyway? Take himself out? It took a while for Red to wake up.
   21. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: November 04, 2011 at 11:38 PM (#3986800)
Point of interest: Why is Killebrew showing up so high on so many lists? Is it Win Shares? Just wondering. I'm not a slave to any uberstat, but WAR sees a 3-win difference between Santo and Killebrew, but I see at least one person who has the Killer ahead here.

Also! I'll get to vote again this year. Finally got the new job under control.
   22. DanG Posted: November 05, 2011 at 04:53 AM (#3986909)
The Sporting News all-star teams voted on after the season

1b - Harmon Killebrew
2b - Rod Carew
ss - Jim Fregosi
3b - Brooks Robinson
of - Carl Yastrzemski
of - Al Kaline
of - Frank Robinson
c - Bill Freehan
p - Jim Lonborg
p - Earl Wilson

1b - Orlando Cepeda
2b - Bill Mazeroski
ss - Gene Alley
3b - Ron Santo
of - Hank Aaron
of - Jimmy Wynn
of - Roberto Clemente
c - Tim McCarver
p - Mike McCormick
p - Fergie Jenkins
   23. Howie Menckel Posted: November 05, 2011 at 06:18 AM (#3986920)
Horlen Topps baseball cards (I still have some of these):

1962 Joel

1965 Joel:

1967 Joel:

1968 Joe:<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

1969 Super cards Joe autogaph:'

1971 Joe:
   24. Lest we forget Posted: November 05, 2011 at 09:27 AM (#3986923)
ok, where Howie went.. i remember Joel from the Topps cards in the 60s.

Howie do you still collect, or know anybody who does? I've got stuff, and it's just too much distance between North Carolina and Denmark to manage. Must liquidate. Anyway, let me know if you do, and we can take this off line. thanks : )
   25. sunnyday2 Posted: November 05, 2011 at 01:53 PM (#3986952)
Killebrew gets bonus points for dramatically denying Yaz a "pure" Triple Crown. ;-)
   26. OCF Posted: November 06, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#3987257)
Some RA+ equivalent W-L records. Pitcher's batting is not included - but this year, it didn't much matter. None of the ones I'll mention were particularly good with the bat, not eve Drysdale or Gibson, and they mostly weren't dreadful - except for Chance, as usual.


Horlen 19-10
Merritt 16-9
Lonborg 18-13
Chance 18-14
Downing 13-9


Bunning 21-12
Nolan 17-8
Jenkins 20-13
Perry 20-13
Short 15-7
Seaver 17-11
Drysdale 17-15
Abernathy 10-2 (13-5 with inherited runner adjustment)


Hughes 15-10
Briles 11-6 (13-8 with inherited runner adjustment)
Carlton 12-10
Gibson 11-8
Hoerner 4-3 (8-7 with inherited runner adjustment)

Three rookies, of three different ages, attracted attention in the NL. Gary Nolan of the Reds was 19 years old, Tom Seaver of the Mets was 22, and Dick Hughes of the Cardinals was 29. The story with Hughes: after a career spent kicking around the minors, he somehow put it together for one year, and found himself, through circumstance and injury, as the most effective pitcher on a pennant winning team. The story with Seaver: the Mets have been a joke team for year, but you know - this Seaver guy is pretty good. Maybe the team's joke days are coming to an end. The story Nolan: Wow! This kid has stuff! There was a real buzz around him.
   27. OCF Posted: November 06, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3987259)
On the evolution of the Cardinal pitching rotation over the course of the 1967 season.

1. Gibson .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Jaster .. Jackson
4. Gibson .. Washburn .. Jaster .. Jackson
8. Gibson .. Washburn .. Jaster .. Jackson .. Carlton
13. Gibson .. Washburn .. Jaster .. Jackson
17. Gibson .. Washburn .. Hughes [1] .. Jackson
21. Gibson .. Washburn .. Carlton .. Hughes .. Jackson
26. Gibson .. Washburn .. Carlton
29. Gibson .. Jackson .. Washburn .. Carlton
33. Gibson .. Hughes .. Washburn .. Jaster [2] .. Carlton
38. Gibson .. Jackson .. Hughes [3] .. Washburn .. Carlton
43. Gibson .. Hughes .. Jaster .. Washburn .. Carlton
48. Gibson .. Hughes .. Jaster .. Washburn .. Jackson
53. .. .. .. .. .. Carlton .. Hughes
55. Gibson .. Washburn .. Carlton .. Hughes
59. Gibson .. Jaster .. Washburn .. Carlton .. Hughes
64. Gibson .. Jaster .. Jackson .. Cosman [4] .. Carlton .. Hughes
70. Gibson [5] . Jaster .. Cosman .. Hughes.. Carlton
75. Gibson .. Jaster .. Cosman .. Hughes .. Carlton
80. Gibson .. Jaster [6] .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Jaster
85. Gibson [7] .. Washburn .. Cosman.. Hughes .. Carlton
90. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles [8] .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Cosman [9]
96. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Hughes .. Carlton
101. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Hughes .. Carlton
106. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
111. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
116. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
121. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
126. Jaster .. Jackson [10] .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Lamabe [10] .. Hughes
133. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
138. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles
141. Gibson [11] .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Washburn .. Briles
146. Gibson .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Washburn .. Briles
151. Gibson .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Washburn .. Torrez
156. Gibson .. Briles .. Carlton .. (two days off)
159. Gibson .. Hughes .. Briles.


[1] May 5. First start for Hughes, Jaster moves to bullpen.
[2] May 27. Jaster returns to the rotation, more or less.
[3] May 30. Hughes carries a no-hitter and 1-0 lead into a rain delay; loses both in the 8th. Game ends on 6-4-3-2 triple play, with Cepeda as the, uh, featured baserunner.
[4] Cosman gets first start the day after a doubleheader.
[5] June 29. Gibson lasts 2/3 of an inning against the Giants, gives up 9 runs. Briles pitches 6+ innings in relief.
[6] All-Star break after Jaster's July 9 start. It was Jaster who got the extra start.
[7] The defining event: On July 15, Gibson exits the game in the 4th with a broken leg (line drive, Clemente). Jackson pitches 3.1 innings in relief. Briles a third of an inning.
[8] July 21. First start for Briles, as a direct response to Gibson's injury.
[9] July 23. Doubleheader. Last time Cosman started.
[10] July 25. Doubleheader. July 28. Doubleheader. Extra bodies needed.
[11] September 7. Gibson returns, out less than 8 weeks with a broken leg. And he comes back as a fire-breathing monster - the peak of his career starts right here.

I was thinking that Jaster and/or Jackson were significantly hurt, but I don't see that in their game logs. Jaster was lower on the "depth chart" than Washburn (not sure why, since Washburn wasn't very effective) and moved in and out of the rotation in response to various needs. Jackson drifted slowly out of the starting role largely because he was ineffective. Hughes, the 29-year-old rookie, got his chance early in the season. It was Briles who got pressed into service because of Gibson's injury.

I thought I remembered everything about this team from having listened to them so avidly - but the name Jim Cosman had me saying "Who's that?" I had no recollection that he'd ever started a game.

At July 15, when Gibson went down, the Cardinals were 17 games above .500 and had a 4 game lead over the Reds and the Cubs, with the Giants 4.5 games behind. While Gibson was out, the Cardinals employed what turned out to be the stablest rotation of the year, the Jaster - Washburn - Briles - Carlton - Hughes group. Just before Gibson came back, the Cardinals were 34 games above .500 and had blown the race wide open, with an 11.5 game lead over the Giants and the Cubs.

So that was the narrative: they won the pennant without Gibson. And you know the importance of narrative to MVP ballots - hence the overwhelming vote for Cepeda.

An entertaining split that got a lot of notice: Lou Brock hit 6 HR in the first 7 games of the season. At that point, he was at .417/.417/.917 and pretty much led the league in everything. bb-ref helpfully gives a 162-game extrapolation of that with 139 HR, 209 R, and 301 RBI (and 47-0 as a base stealer.) After that, he settled back into just being Lou Brock, including that he had 200+ hits without batting 300. But his 21 HR and 76 RBI (XBH 32-12-21) were the best of his career.

As for my note in #11 about Gibson coming back as a "fire-breathing monster", here's his 1967 season:

Before the injury:
138 IP, 3.52 ERA, 119 SO, 33 BB, .238/.286/.351, average game score 58.

After the injury, regular season:
37.1 IP, 0.96 ERA, 28 SO, 7 BB, .203/.243/.226, average game score 67.

27 IP, 1.00 ERA, 26 SO, 5 BB, 0.704 WHIP, game scores 80, 82, 80.
   28. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 07, 2011 at 03:18 AM (#3987661)
What I found amusing about the game linked in #20 is that Giants' starter Joe Gibbon, pitching with an 11-0 lead, faced four batters, retired none of them - and was relieved by Bob Bolin! Can't imagine that happening today.

-- MWE
   29. DanG Posted: November 07, 2011 at 07:04 PM (#3988073)
Leaders in WARP from BPro

1967            WARP1  WARP3
Ron Santo        9.8    9.8
Carl Yastrzemski 9.9    8.9
Hank Aaron       8.7    8.4
Roberto Clemente 8.6    8.3
Jim Bunning      8.7    7.9
Tim McCarver     7.7    8.2
Al Kaline        8.0    7.1
Harmon Killebrew 8.0    7.0
Brooks Robinson  7.8    7.1
Joe Horlen       7.8    6.7
Paul Blair       7.5    6.7
Bill Freehan     7.2    6.2
Tom Seaver       6.9    6.2
Orlando Cepeda   6.7    6.4
Fergie Jenkins   6.9    6.1
Adolfo Phillips  6.4    6.3
Chris Short      6.5    5.9
Joe Morgan       6.2    6.0
Rico Petrocelli  6.3    5.8
Ted Abernathy    6.1    5.9
Jim Merritt      6.4    5.5
Frank Robinson   6.4    5.5
Gaylord Perry    6.4    5.5
Tony Gonzalez    6.0    5.8
Gary Nolan       6.1    5.6
Gary Peters      6.4    5.1
Don Drysdale     6.1    5.4
Joe Torre        5.6    5.6
Jim Wynn         5.7    5.4
Phil Niekro      5.8    5.2
Dick Allen       5.7    5.3
Curt Flood       5.5    5.4
Willie Mays      5.5    5.4 
   30. DL from MN Posted: November 08, 2011 at 04:11 PM (#3988547)
1967 Prelim

1) Yastrzemski - and he laps the field
2) Santo
3) Aaron
4) Clemente
5) Freehan - 1223 innings caught, deserves full C bonus
6) Killebrew - finally makes it on my ballot
7) Kaline
8) Frank Robinson
9) McCarver - don't overlook the catchers
10) Brooks Robinson

11-15) Petrocelli, Cepeda, Bunning, Paul Blair, Joe Morgan
16-20) Dick Allen, Adolfo Phillips, Joe Horlen, Jim Fregosi, Tony Gonzalez
   31. DL from MN Posted: November 08, 2011 at 07:08 PM (#3988713)
Re: Postseason credit. Yaz should get a big bonus but he doesn't need it to be #1. Cepeda and McCarver were both poor performers in the Series so they probably don't deserve a bump. I don't have anyone else close enough to the ballot to worry about how they did in the World Series.

Cepeda v. Petrocelli v. Brooks Robinson for 10th is the most interesting argument on my ballot.

I have Abernathy about even with Horlen.
   32. DL from MN Posted: November 08, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3988725)
I'd love to hear thoughts about how good Cepeda's defense was in 1967 (there's a 6 run difference between Dan R and baseball reference). Also I'd like to know how Lou Brock ahead of Cepeda made a difference in his hitting. Did Cepeda see more fastballs? Did Brock distract him?

Also - what happened to Petrocelli in July 1967?
   33. OCF Posted: November 09, 2011 at 12:16 AM (#3988896)
Cepeda was batting 4th in the order, Brock leadoff. I would guess that Brock did most of his running with Flood, Javier, or Maris at the plate, not Cepeda. For what it's worth (which isn't much), Flood had a good year with the bat by his own standards. And as for fastballs: Cepeda was actually notorious as a guy who could and would hit a curve ball.

I can't really help you with the defense - my 1967 experience was mostly a radio experience. Most of the special exclamations about defense by Harry and Jack were about Maxvill or Flood, anyway. And Shannon got backhanded compliments for not being as bad as a converted outfielder might potentially be at 3B.

I'm also curious about Cepeda as a baserunner. I can recall some instances of bad baserunning (see, for instance, footnote 3 in post 20 above), but I don't have much of a sense of his overall quality there.
   34. Morty Causa Posted: November 09, 2011 at 12:44 AM (#3988907)
Well, for what it's worth, my memory of watching him on TV (not that many times of course) and of what was said and written about him at the time led me to conclude that he was a poor base runner and below average first baseman. Not only did he display poor judgment on the base paths (he did not have good instincts), he was slow. We know how memory is, though.
   35. lieiam Posted: November 09, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#3989305)
DL from MN:
I've been working on my spreadsheet this morning for the 1967 election and I just finished adding in the WARP1 numbers from Dan R's spreadsheet via the yahoo group and I was wondering where the heck his pitcher numbers are? Last time you posted his (old method) leaders for pitchers and I was hoping you could direct me to where you got that data. [And if Dan R is around, I'd love to get your updated pitcher leaderboard for 1967].
   36. DL from MN Posted: November 09, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3989614)
Dan R sent me his pitcher data a while back.

1967 PHI-N NL bunniji01 3.9 -1 -3.9 6.9
1967 CHI-A AL horlejo01 3.8 -0.9 -3.3 6.1
1967 CIN-N NL nolanga01 3.4 -0.9 -2.9 5.4
1967 MIN-A AL merriji01 3.2 -0.8 -2.9 5.4
1967 NY_-N NL seaveto01 2.8 -0.6 -3.2 5.3
1967 PHI-N NL shortch02 3.5 -1 -2.6 5.1
1967 CHI-A AL peterga01 1.9 -0.4 -3.5 5
1967 CIN-N NL queenme02 2.2 -0.5 -2.7 4.5
1967 CHI-N NL jenkife01 1.9 -0.9 -3.7 4.8
1967 LA_-N NL drysddo01 2.2 -1.1 -3.6 4.7
1967 KC_-A AL hunteca01 1.7 -0.6 -3.3 4.4
1967 SF_-N NL perryga01 2 -1.2 -3.7 4.5
   37. OCF Posted: November 10, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#3989724)
1967 CIN-N NL queenme02 2.2 -0.5 -2.7 4.5

Ah - a key member of the "all-royalty" pitching staff, along with Silver King, John Tudor, and Pedro Borbon.
   38. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 10, 2011 at 02:26 AM (#3989769)
Ah - a key member of the "all-royalty" pitching staff, along with Silver King, John Tudor, and Pedro Borbon.

Not to mention his daddy. Daddy was the starter and loser for the Yankees in the game in which the St. Louis Browns clinched their only American League pennant in 1944.

The younger Queen was one of a number of Reds' pitchers who came up in the 60s and 70s, had one or two good seasons, and then flamed out with injuries. Gary Nolan is probably the best remembered of the group, which also included guys like Queen, Sammy Ellis, Billy McCool, and Wayne Simpson.

-- MWE
   39. bjhanke Posted: November 10, 2011 at 03:35 PM (#3990209)
On Cepeda's running, for OCF: I just finished reading his bio, which you can link to from BB-Ref, and got matters a bit straighter than I had had them. Apparently, Cepeda injured his right knee at the age of 13, and it continued to plague him throughout his baseball career, including at least two more major knee injuries. Also, the leg was a bit bowed - I don't know why, but it may have been a result of the age-13 injury. Apparently, when he first got started in the bigs, he could run a little, which explained - along with the Giants' glut of 1B at the time - why the Giants tried him out in the outfield. By the time he got to STL, he was known for having one leg a half inch or so shorter than the other (I remember this quite well), and did not run well at all. My guess is that if you used to be able to run, but can't any more, you will become a bad baserunner, because your brain will keep trying to tell you to do things that your legs will no longer do. My guess is also that if your knee is really that bad, you're not going to be a good defender at any position.

I also clicked OCF's link to the Gibson game with Schoendienst managing, where Bob just didn't have anything. I have no idea what was in Red's head, leaving him in for that shelling, but I do think I know how Red would go about taking Bob out of a game. If I understand the rules right, if the manager comes out of the clubhouse and makes that two-finger tap of the arm to indicate which reliever is coming in, that's it. The current pitcher is gone at that point. You get to do that BEFORE you have to actually talk to Gibson. I also don't want to demean Red totally as a manager. He did win two pennants and a WS. But he was like Bob Lemon or Harvey Kuenn; very passive. That only works as long as the stronger personalities on your team don't decide to take over the club. Having Red as your manager for a whole decade is just asking for trouble, especially if your roster contains Ted Simmons and Keith Hernandez. Red does hold one interesting record: He has spent more seasons in a major league uniform, as a player, coach and manager, than anyone else ever. Connie Mack managed in street clothes. The simple ability to convince your management that you have value for that long is pretty impressive. I would imagine that Red Schoendienst is a delightful man to hang around with.

Finally on another thread, someone called me out on Johnny Keane's getting fired after 1964. What I remembered was the public announcements that Johnny was all but gone and that Leo Durocher was in the wings. Apparently, the Cards changed their minds, and staged an event to re-up Keane. But Johnny was insulted and hurt, and resigned his job just before the big event. I remembered only the first half of the story. Sorry there. - Brock
   40. OCF Posted: November 10, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3990291)
Wasn't the story with the Giants that Cepeda wouldn't play the outfield? So they put McCovey out there and McCovey was slower than Cepeda.

The '67 baserunning play that I'm ragging on Cepeda for specifically: the May 30 game in which Hughes carried a perfect game into a rain delay and through 7, only to lose the no-hitter and give up two runs in the 8th. Top of the 9th, Cardinals down 2-1. Cepeda leads of with a single. McCarver, single, Cepeda to 3rd, so it's 1st and 3rd, nobody out, Cepeda the tying run. Gagilano (who had started the game instead of Shannon) batting. I don't know exactly how the Reds were playing the infield - possibly in at the corners, halfway at short and second. Or maybe in all the way. Gagliano grounded it to short. Cepeda didn't break. The Reds went for the 6-4-3 double play and got it, only now Cepeda was running - and he was out at the plate. Game-ending triple play.

One question: what is the "book" play for Cepeda there, in that exact situation? (1-3, 0 out, down 1 run in the 9th.) Should he have been going on contact?
   41. lieiam Posted: November 10, 2011 at 05:08 PM (#3990327)
DL from MN: thanks for the pitching numbers!

Here's what my ballot looks like.... this is probably how it will look in the end:

1-Carl Yastrzemski 10000 (a run away win... first in all 7 systems I use)
2-Ron Santo 8592
3-Roberto Clemente 7719
4-Hank Aaron 7671
5-Harmon Killebrew 7575
6-Tim McCarver 7021 (with my 10% catcher bonus)
7-Al Kaline 6909
8-Jim Bunning 6841
9-Orlando Cepeda 6807
10-Bill Freehan 6422 (with my 10% catcher bonus)

11-15: Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson, Paul Blair, Dick Allen, Adolfo Phillips
16-20: Jim Ray Hart, Joe Horlen, Tony Gonzalez, Ted Abernathy, Jimmy Wynn
   42. DL from MN Posted: November 10, 2011 at 05:19 PM (#3990334)
I'd say go on contact (or when the ball hits the ground) or don't go at all. It can't be both. Go on contact and you may get out at home but avoid the double play.
   43. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 15, 2011 at 10:55 AM (#3993779)
One question: what is the "book" play for Cepeda there, in that exact situation? (1-3, 0 out, down 1 run in the 9th.) Should he have been going on contact?

It's not entirely clear where Cepeda started on the play. There's a couple of sources on Newspaper Archive that indicate he was on second, not third. Retrosheet says third.

The AP article about the play has this:

Asked how he felt about the triple play, Schoendienst just shook his head.

On that same day, Jim Bunning homered off Juan Marichal in the 9th to give the Phillies a 5-4 win over the Giants, snapping a personal eight-game winning streak for Marichal. Can't imagine either starter being around at that point in today's game.

-- MWE
   44. OCF Posted: November 15, 2011 at 02:38 PM (#3993834)
I was listening to the game on radio, and it stuck in my memory. Now, my memory can be fallible - but I recall it as first and third.
   45. DL from MN Posted: November 16, 2011 at 04:48 PM (#3994828)
Still not sure when we'll run the election because I don't know when 2012 HoM voting will occur. We'll start the Wednesday after HoM voting is finished.
   46. Al Peterson Posted: November 17, 2011 at 02:47 PM (#3995556)
Any mention of 1967 has to include August 18th as Tony C. didn't get out of the way of the fateful pitch from Jack Hamilton. If that doesn't happen does he form a 1-2 punch with Yaz into the early 70s? Do we see Dwight Evans arrive in 1973 if Conigliaro is a healthy OF? A what-if in Beantown still mentioned today.
   47. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 20, 2011 at 03:14 PM (#3997829)
Yeah, I'm here. The pitching numbers DL from MN has are based on BP's old DERA statistic, which in turn was based on BP's old FRAA team defense stat which may or may not be reliable. I am happy to churn out new ones but I need some better estimation of team defense. I could compile it myself whenever I get my copy of Wizardry but that might take awhile...
   48. DL from MN Posted: November 21, 2011 at 06:32 PM (#3998650)
FYI - we haven't been keeping up to date on plaques. If anyone feels like doing plaques for previous years give it your best shot.
   49. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 24, 2011 at 04:10 PM (#4000640)
Still not sure when we'll run the election because I don't know when 2012 HoM voting will occur. We'll start the Wednesday after HoM voting is finished.

I'll post the HoM ballot at the beginning of next month.
   50. fra paolo Posted: November 26, 2011 at 12:47 AM (#4001055)
If the HoM ballot is about a week away, should we start a '67 MMP ballot now?
   51. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 26, 2011 at 06:29 PM (#4001275)
If the HoM ballot is about a week away, should we start a '67 MMP ballot now?

I would, since I won't be posting the HoM ballot thread until Dec. 5.
   52. DL from MN Posted: November 28, 2011 at 08:11 PM (#4002450)
I'm up for starting balloting this Wednesday. It shouldn't interfere much with the HoM ballot.
   53. Al Peterson Posted: December 12, 2011 at 03:57 PM (#4013922)
Always cutting it close. Finally input the guys for 1967 into the system and out pops this top 15. Final ballot will go up in the other thread probably tomorrow.

1967 Prelim MMP Ballot

1. Carl Yastrzemski
2. Ron Santo
3. Hank Aaron
4. Roberto Clemente
5. Harmon Killebrew
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Al Kaline
8. Jim Bunning
9. Frank Robinson
10. Tim McCarver
11. Dick Allen
12. Paul Blair
13. Bill Freehan
14. Jim Ray Hart
15. Gary Nolan
   54. fra paolo Posted: December 13, 2011 at 03:47 PM (#4015026)
I missed the prelim deadline yesterday, in part because it is marking season in academe. I may post a ballot later today and leave John and DL to choose whether to count it.
   55. DL from MN Posted: December 13, 2011 at 03:48 PM (#4015030)
The prelim deadline is for people who haven't voted in previous elections.
   56. fra paolo Posted: December 14, 2011 at 03:21 PM (#4016150)
What shall we do about 1968? Wait for the New Year? Or is it time to look at another era?

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