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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Wednesday, November 02, 2011
Most Meritorious Player: 1967 Discussion
The American League saw one of its more exciting pennant races, in the penultimate year of non-divisional play. By contrast, the National League found the St Louis Cardinals in first place on 18 June 1967, and they never looked back. The St Louis Cardinals beat the Boston Red Sox in the World Series.
Win BB-ref
Shares WAR
Carl Yastrzemski 43 12.2
Harmon Killebrew 38 7.1
Ron Santo 37 10.2
Roberto Clemente 36 8.2
Orlando Cepeda 35 7.1
Hank Aaron 34 8.2
Tim McCarver 31 6.0
Al Kaline 30 7.3
Lou Brock 30 5.1
Frank Robinson 29 6.0
Jim Ray Hart 29 5.9
Dick Allen 29 5.9
Bill Freehan 28 6.3
Billy Williams 28 4.7
Frank Howard 28 4.7
Paul Blair 25 6.7
Adolfo Phillips 25 6.3
Jim Bunning 24 8.3
Brooks Robinson 24 7.1
Tom Seaver 20 6.7
Gary nolan 20 6.5
Chris Short 16 5.9
fra paolo
Posted: November 02, 2011 at 08:29 PM | 56 comment(s)
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1. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: November 02, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#3985238)Bunning was head and shoulders above other pitchers, went only 17-15, run support wasn't terrible 3.94 per start- but its' distribuition was remarkably inefficient- 6 times the Phils were shut out, 7 other times only scored once, otoh he got 9 runs, 10, 12 and 14 in other games...
5 starts were lost 0-1, one lost 0-2, another lost 1-2, and two lost 1-3, he also won 1-0, 2-0, and 2-1 games... Career nosedived afterwards, 1967 was last year as an elite pitcher, worked awfully hard 65-67, averaging 300ip
Koufax was retired, Gibson and Marichal had off years, Carlton and Seaver were not yet Carlton and Seaver... It should have been Bunning's year but the Phil's offense was just not cooperative- poor offense, one great hitter, a couple good hitters... and no mediocre ones, seemingly everyone else was horrible- team should have been easily (as these things go) "fixable", but it wasn't, the bad players were not replaced with good or even average players, the good players either got old and ineffective or were traded... Starting with 1966 the Phillies won 87, 82, 76, 63, 73, 67, 59- there had been a core there in the early to mid 60s but it was squandered.
I think he wins in a walk, but will he be unanimous?
Which is good because it will give me more time to bring things up - just don't expect it to have all that much to do with who the top 10 players were. Yes - 1967. The year I discovered the joys of transistor radios and listening to night games after I'd gone to bed. Sometimes a local station, but sometimes KMOX from several hundred miles away, on ionospheric skip, with the characteristic fading in and out.
I'm going to be pretty busy the next couple of days (including a test to grade tonight). When I get around to talking about pitchers, expect to hear about Dick Hughes and Nelson Briles. In fact, go look up Hughes right now - a 29 year old rookie, and 1967 constitutes a sizable majority of his entire career value. But if you're going to do that - pack most of your career into a single season - you'd want to do it the way he did.
The basic narrative for Gibson: for the most part he was not having a good year by his own standards (go find the game in which he allowed 9 runs in the first inning before Schoendienst got him out of there). With the team locked in a pennant race, he took a Roberto Clemente line drive off his shin, breaking a bone. He was out with the broken leg for something like 7 weeks. While he was gone, the Cardinals ran away with the pennant. But Gibson didn't come back to merely resume his off-year. No, he came back as a fire-breathing monster, and remained a fire-breathing monster through the WS and through and beyond the entire next season.
Oh, and the MMP for the first half of April was Lou Brock.
Of course, Carl Yastrzemski won the triple crown in the AL for the "Impossible Dream" 1967 BoSox, finishing the season with a flourish (three teams could have won the pennant on the final day of the season) to win Boston's first pennant since 1946.
The 1967 World Series went the distance with Bob Gibson outpitching Jim Lonborg (on two days rest) in game 7.
This is wry understatement, I assume?
Rk Player WAR ERA+ WPA WHIP G GF GS IP Age Tm Lg W L SV ERA OPS1 Ted Abernathy 5.8 299 4.776 0.978 70 61 0 106.1 34 CIN NL 6 3 28 1.27 .463
2 Frank Linzy 3.3 223 2.036 1.056 57 44 0 95.2 26 SFG NL 7 7 17 1.51 .523
3 Al McBean 3.2 132 -0.413 1.229 51 21 8 131.0 29 PIT NL 7 4 4 2.54 .644
4 Bill Hands 3.2 145 0.394 1.213 49 21 11 150.0 27 CHC NL 7 8 6 2.46 .638
5 Turk Farrell 2.6 146 1.266 1.051 57 36 1 103.2 33 TOT NL 10 6 12 2.34 .591
6 Moe Drabowsky 2.3 198 1.785 0.955 43 26 0 95.1 31 BAL AL 7 5 12 1.60 .545
7 Dick Hall 2.2 156 2.001 1.105 48 37 1 86.0 36 PHI NL 10 8 8 2.20 .640
8 Ron Perranoski 2.0 126 2.408 1.291 70 47 0 110.0 31 LAD NL 6 7 16 2.45 .632
9 Hoyt Wilhelm 1.8 230 3.814 1.034 49 30 0 89.0 44 CHW AL 8 3 12 1.31 .497
10 Ron Taylor 1.8 145 0.209 1.137 50 31 0 73.0 29 NYM NL 4 6 8 2.34 .577
11 Eddie Watt 1.7 141 1.393 1.003 49 22 0 103.2 26 BAL AL 3 5 8 2.26 .529
12 Fred Gladding 1.6 165 0.834 1.052 42 25 1 77.0 31 DET AL 6 4 12 1.99 .590
13 Roy Face 1.6 139 0.492 1.130 61 45 0 74.1 39 PIT NL 7 5 17 2.42 .604
14 Dave Baldwin 1.6 185 1.568 1.063 58 26 0 68.2 29 WSA AL 2 4 12 1.70 .563
15 Don Nottebart 1.6 197 0.332 1.185 47 18 0 79.1 31 CIN NL 0 3 4 1.93 .650
16 John Wyatt 1.6 136 2.468 1.179 60 43 0 93.1 32 BOS AL 10 7 20 2.60 .642
Since bb-ref makes it easy to do so, just for grins I isolated off the last 12 games of the season for Yastrzemski. 8 games on the road, 4 at home, and the Red Sox went 8-4. In those 12 games, Yaz went .523/.604/.955, with 5 HR, 14 R, and 16 RBI. Even though the season was nearly over, he raised his seasonal BA by .016, his OBA by .015, and his SLG by .028. And he stayed hot in the World Series.
1) Yaz (should be unanimous, IMO)
2) Ron Santo
3) Roberto Clemente
4) Harmon Killebrew
5) Orlando Cepeda
6) Tim McCarver
7) Hank Aaron
8) Dick Allen
9) Ted Abernathy
10) Al Kaline
If anyone does think in terms of postseason bonuses - is there enough there for Brock to sniff the top 10?
Schoendienst did something interesting with the batting order - he didn't platoon the lineup (mostly - Maris took more of his days off vs. LHP) but he did platoon shuffle the order.
Vs. RHP: 1. Brock, 2. Flood, 3. Maris, 4. Cepeda, 5. McCarver, 6. Shannon, 7. Javier, 8. Maxvill, 9. Pitcher
Vs. LHP: 1. Brock, 2. Javier, 3. Flood, 4. Cepeda, 5. Shannon, 6. McCarver, 7. Maris/other RF, 8. Maxvill, 9 Pitcher
(I might have 6/7 flipped for LHP.)
Cepeda won the actual NL MVP overwhelmingly, which is a strong case of "winning team" bias. The case for him ahead of Santo and Clemente ... does not hold up to further scrutiny.
On my ballot, it's possible he could make #10.
1. Carl Yastrzemski, Boston LF
2. Ron Santo, Chicago 3B
3. Roberto Clemente, Pittsburgh RF
4. Harmon Killebrew, Minnesota 1B
5. Hank Aaron, Atlanta RF- finally, I disagree with Grandma Murphy
6. Jim Bunning, Philadelphia P
7. Frank Robinson, Baltimore RF
8. Al Kaline, Detroit RF- 6 through 8 are all very close and could easily switch by the final
9. Ted Abernathy, Cincinnati RP
10. Dick Allen, Philadelphia 3B
11. Bill Freehan
12. Orlando Cepeda
13. Phil Niekro
14. Tim McCarver
15. Jim Ray Hart
16. Joe Horlen- the top AL pitcher
Somehow I always remember seeing his name in print as "Joel". Anyone else remember it that way?
Yes. However, there's an AP dispatch from Horlen's 1967 no-hitter on Newspaper Archive that calls him "Joel", while the accompanying picture calls him "Joe".
1967 was one of the few times that a reigning MVP (Clemente) had a better year than his MVP and didn't win the award.
-- MWE
Andre Dawson was better in 1988 than he was in 1987. Of course, that gets into the whole 1987 story ...
And while I don't know about "better," I think that Barry Larkin had a pretty solid follow-up to his MVP.
I'm sure you can find other cases, although the likes of Musial, Mantle, or Mays might fall into some other category.
What was happening there was that Schoendienst (or Gibson) was platooning Javier and Maris in terms of where they hit in the lineup. Javier was quite famous for his inability to hit a righty curve ball, even a bad one. He just panicked and bailed out. Maris was having troubles with lefties, possibly because he'd moved from a park with a very short RF line to one with a large RF territory in general.
The "or Gibson" comes from Curt Flood's autobiography The Way It Is, which I highly recommend. Flood says, essentially, that Schoendienst was a lousy in-game manager, and so Gibson would sit on the bench nearby him and say things like, "Gee. there's a couple of power lefty hitters coming up after this guy. I'll bet ol' Red will be on the phone to the bullpen any minute now." And Red would get up and call the bullpen.
Red managed the Cards for most of the 1970s. This was the period where the Cards had a lot of talent, but could never win. The problem, I have from various sources, was that Ted Simmons and Keith Hernandez had seized control of the club from Red. Red was simply too passive a manager (the Harvey Kuenn model - just go out there and get 'em, guys). When Whitey Herzog came along, the biggest problem he had was convincing the Cardinal stars that Whitey was the manager and they were not. They weren't used to a real manager. They were used to Red. Whitey got rid of the worst troublemakers (cocaine use was involved as well) and ended up with plenty of talent to win with. Just another example of how a laid-back manager can be a help when your squad is wound too tight, but you can't stay with him for too many years, or he'll lose the clubhouse completely.
- Brock Hanke
1. Carl Yastrzemski
2. Ron Santo
3. Roberto Clemente
4. Harmon Killebrew
5. Hank Aaron
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Lou Brock
8. Tim McCarver
9. Al Kaline
10. Bill Freehan
Tony Gonzalez
Jimmy Wynn
Willie McCovey
Rusty Staub
Curt Flood
Joe Morgan
All played in the NL in 1967.
1. Yaz. I don't know if he should be unanimous or not, but he should win.
2. Killebrew. WS likes, WAR not so much.
3. Santo. WS and WAR both like him.
4. Cepeda. An obvious MVP pick, and not the worst, but in hindsight not the best either. #8 in WAR.
5. Clemente. #4 in both WS and WAR.
6. Aaron. #4 in WAR, #5 in WS.
7. Kaline
8. McCarver
9. Brock
10. Freehan
11. F. Robinson
12. Hart. Who?
13. Lonborg, Wow, top pitcher way down here.
14. Bunning. WAR and Chris like, WS and me not so much.
15. B. Williams
Also! I'll get to vote again this year. Finally got the new job under control.
-AL-
1b - Harmon Killebrew
2b - Rod Carew
ss - Jim Fregosi
3b - Brooks Robinson
of - Carl Yastrzemski
of - Al Kaline
of - Frank Robinson
c - Bill Freehan
p - Jim Lonborg
p - Earl Wilson
-NL-
1b - Orlando Cepeda
2b - Bill Mazeroski
ss - Gene Alley
3b - Ron Santo
of - Hank Aaron
of - Jimmy Wynn
of - Roberto Clemente
c - Tim McCarver
p - Mike McCormick
p - Fergie Jenkins
1962 Joel
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-TOPPS-BASEBALL-CARD-479-JOEL-HORLEN-WHITE-SOX-RK-/290461403333
1965 Joel:
http://1965topps.blogspot.com/2010/12/480-joel-horlen.html
1967 Joel:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-Baseball-Card-107-Joel-Horlen-/270588170030
1968 Joe:
http://compare.ebay.com/like/160609077647?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y
1969 Super cards Joe autogaph:
http://www.vintagecardprices.com/card-profile/166457/1969-Topps-Super-Joe-Horlen-12-Baseball-Card-Value-Prices.htm'
1971 Joe:
http://www.natedsanders.com/ItemInfo.asp?ItemID=27403
Howie do you still collect, or know anybody who does? I've got stuff, and it's just too much distance between North Carolina and Denmark to manage. Must liquidate. Anyway, let me know if you do, and we can take this off line. thanks : )
AL:
Horlen 19-10
Merritt 16-9
Lonborg 18-13
Chance 18-14
Downing 13-9
NL:
Bunning 21-12
Nolan 17-8
Jenkins 20-13
Perry 20-13
Short 15-7
Seaver 17-11
Drysdale 17-15
Abernathy 10-2 (13-5 with inherited runner adjustment)
Cardinals:
Hughes 15-10
Briles 11-6 (13-8 with inherited runner adjustment)
Carlton 12-10
Gibson 11-8
Hoerner 4-3 (8-7 with inherited runner adjustment)
Three rookies, of three different ages, attracted attention in the NL. Gary Nolan of the Reds was 19 years old, Tom Seaver of the Mets was 22, and Dick Hughes of the Cardinals was 29. The story with Hughes: after a career spent kicking around the minors, he somehow put it together for one year, and found himself, through circumstance and injury, as the most effective pitcher on a pennant winning team. The story with Seaver: the Mets have been a joke team for year, but you know - this Seaver guy is pretty good. Maybe the team's joke days are coming to an end. The story Nolan: Wow! This kid has stuff! There was a real buzz around him.
1. Gibson .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Jaster .. Jackson
4. Gibson .. Washburn .. Jaster .. Jackson
8. Gibson .. Washburn .. Jaster .. Jackson .. Carlton
13. Gibson .. Washburn .. Jaster .. Jackson
17. Gibson .. Washburn .. Hughes [1] .. Jackson
21. Gibson .. Washburn .. Carlton .. Hughes .. Jackson
26. Gibson .. Washburn .. Carlton
29. Gibson .. Jackson .. Washburn .. Carlton
33. Gibson .. Hughes .. Washburn .. Jaster [2] .. Carlton
38. Gibson .. Jackson .. Hughes [3] .. Washburn .. Carlton
43. Gibson .. Hughes .. Jaster .. Washburn .. Carlton
48. Gibson .. Hughes .. Jaster .. Washburn .. Jackson
53. .. .. .. .. .. Carlton .. Hughes
55. Gibson .. Washburn .. Carlton .. Hughes
59. Gibson .. Jaster .. Washburn .. Carlton .. Hughes
64. Gibson .. Jaster .. Jackson .. Cosman [4] .. Carlton .. Hughes
70. Gibson [5] . Jaster .. Cosman .. Hughes.. Carlton
75. Gibson .. Jaster .. Cosman .. Hughes .. Carlton
80. Gibson .. Jaster [6] .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Jaster
85. Gibson [7] .. Washburn .. Cosman.. Hughes .. Carlton
90. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles [8] .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Cosman [9]
96. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Hughes .. Carlton
101. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Hughes .. Carlton
106. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
111. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
116. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
121. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
126. Jaster .. Jackson [10] .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Lamabe [10] .. Hughes
133. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles .. Carlton .. Hughes
138. Jaster .. Washburn .. Briles
141. Gibson [11] .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Washburn .. Briles
146. Gibson .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Washburn .. Briles
151. Gibson .. Hughes .. Carlton .. Washburn .. Torrez
156. Gibson .. Briles .. Carlton .. (two days off)
159. Gibson .. Hughes .. Briles.
Footnotes:
[1] May 5. First start for Hughes, Jaster moves to bullpen.
[2] May 27. Jaster returns to the rotation, more or less.
[3] May 30. Hughes carries a no-hitter and 1-0 lead into a rain delay; loses both in the 8th. Game ends on 6-4-3-2 triple play, with Cepeda as the, uh, featured baserunner.
[4] Cosman gets first start the day after a doubleheader.
[5] June 29. Gibson lasts 2/3 of an inning against the Giants, gives up 9 runs. Briles pitches 6+ innings in relief.
[6] All-Star break after Jaster's July 9 start. It was Jaster who got the extra start.
[7] The defining event: On July 15, Gibson exits the game in the 4th with a broken leg (line drive, Clemente). Jackson pitches 3.1 innings in relief. Briles a third of an inning.
[8] July 21. First start for Briles, as a direct response to Gibson's injury.
[9] July 23. Doubleheader. Last time Cosman started.
[10] July 25. Doubleheader. July 28. Doubleheader. Extra bodies needed.
[11] September 7. Gibson returns, out less than 8 weeks with a broken leg. And he comes back as a fire-breathing monster - the peak of his career starts right here.
I was thinking that Jaster and/or Jackson were significantly hurt, but I don't see that in their game logs. Jaster was lower on the "depth chart" than Washburn (not sure why, since Washburn wasn't very effective) and moved in and out of the rotation in response to various needs. Jackson drifted slowly out of the starting role largely because he was ineffective. Hughes, the 29-year-old rookie, got his chance early in the season. It was Briles who got pressed into service because of Gibson's injury.
I thought I remembered everything about this team from having listened to them so avidly - but the name Jim Cosman had me saying "Who's that?" I had no recollection that he'd ever started a game.
At July 15, when Gibson went down, the Cardinals were 17 games above .500 and had a 4 game lead over the Reds and the Cubs, with the Giants 4.5 games behind. While Gibson was out, the Cardinals employed what turned out to be the stablest rotation of the year, the Jaster - Washburn - Briles - Carlton - Hughes group. Just before Gibson came back, the Cardinals were 34 games above .500 and had blown the race wide open, with an 11.5 game lead over the Giants and the Cubs.
So that was the narrative: they won the pennant without Gibson. And you know the importance of narrative to MVP ballots - hence the overwhelming vote for Cepeda.
An entertaining split that got a lot of notice: Lou Brock hit 6 HR in the first 7 games of the season. At that point, he was at .417/.417/.917 and pretty much led the league in everything. bb-ref helpfully gives a 162-game extrapolation of that with 139 HR, 209 R, and 301 RBI (and 47-0 as a base stealer.) After that, he settled back into just being Lou Brock, including that he had 200+ hits without batting 300. But his 21 HR and 76 RBI (XBH 32-12-21) were the best of his career.
As for my note in #11 about Gibson coming back as a "fire-breathing monster", here's his 1967 season:
Before the injury:
138 IP, 3.52 ERA, 119 SO, 33 BB, .238/.286/.351, average game score 58.
After the injury, regular season:
37.1 IP, 0.96 ERA, 28 SO, 7 BB, .203/.243/.226, average game score 67.
Post-season
27 IP, 1.00 ERA, 26 SO, 5 BB, 0.704 WHIP, game scores 80, 82, 80.
-- MWE
1967 WARP1 WARP3Ron Santo 9.8 9.8
Carl Yastrzemski 9.9 8.9
Hank Aaron 8.7 8.4
Roberto Clemente 8.6 8.3
Jim Bunning 8.7 7.9
Tim McCarver 7.7 8.2
Al Kaline 8.0 7.1
Harmon Killebrew 8.0 7.0
Brooks Robinson 7.8 7.1
Joe Horlen 7.8 6.7
Paul Blair 7.5 6.7
Bill Freehan 7.2 6.2
Tom Seaver 6.9 6.2
Orlando Cepeda 6.7 6.4
Fergie Jenkins 6.9 6.1
Adolfo Phillips 6.4 6.3
Chris Short 6.5 5.9
Joe Morgan 6.2 6.0
Rico Petrocelli 6.3 5.8
Ted Abernathy 6.1 5.9
Jim Merritt 6.4 5.5
Frank Robinson 6.4 5.5
Gaylord Perry 6.4 5.5
Tony Gonzalez 6.0 5.8
Gary Nolan 6.1 5.6
Gary Peters 6.4 5.1
Don Drysdale 6.1 5.4
Joe Torre 5.6 5.6
Jim Wynn 5.7 5.4
Phil Niekro 5.8 5.2
Dick Allen 5.7 5.3
Curt Flood 5.5 5.4
Willie Mays 5.5 5.4
1) Yastrzemski - and he laps the field
2) Santo
3) Aaron
4) Clemente
5) Freehan - 1223 innings caught, deserves full C bonus
6) Killebrew - finally makes it on my ballot
7) Kaline
8) Frank Robinson
9) McCarver - don't overlook the catchers
10) Brooks Robinson
11-15) Petrocelli, Cepeda, Bunning, Paul Blair, Joe Morgan
16-20) Dick Allen, Adolfo Phillips, Joe Horlen, Jim Fregosi, Tony Gonzalez
Cepeda v. Petrocelli v. Brooks Robinson for 10th is the most interesting argument on my ballot.
I have Abernathy about even with Horlen.
Also - what happened to Petrocelli in July 1967?
I can't really help you with the defense - my 1967 experience was mostly a radio experience. Most of the special exclamations about defense by Harry and Jack were about Maxvill or Flood, anyway. And Shannon got backhanded compliments for not being as bad as a converted outfielder might potentially be at 3B.
I'm also curious about Cepeda as a baserunner. I can recall some instances of bad baserunning (see, for instance, footnote 3 in post 20 above), but I don't have much of a sense of his overall quality there.
I've been working on my spreadsheet this morning for the 1967 election and I just finished adding in the WARP1 numbers from Dan R's spreadsheet via the yahoo group and I was wondering where the heck his pitcher numbers are? Last time you posted his (old method) leaders for pitchers and I was hoping you could direct me to where you got that data. [And if Dan R is around, I'd love to get your updated pitcher leaderboard for 1967].
YEAR TEAM Lg playerid PWAA2 BWAA2 Rep WARP2
1967 PHI-N NL bunniji01 3.9 -1 -3.9 6.9
1967 CHI-A AL horlejo01 3.8 -0.9 -3.3 6.1
1967 CIN-N NL nolanga01 3.4 -0.9 -2.9 5.4
1967 MIN-A AL merriji01 3.2 -0.8 -2.9 5.4
1967 NY_-N NL seaveto01 2.8 -0.6 -3.2 5.3
1967 PHI-N NL shortch02 3.5 -1 -2.6 5.1
1967 CHI-A AL peterga01 1.9 -0.4 -3.5 5
1967 CIN-N NL queenme02 2.2 -0.5 -2.7 4.5
1967 CHI-N NL jenkife01 1.9 -0.9 -3.7 4.8
1967 LA_-N NL drysddo01 2.2 -1.1 -3.6 4.7
1967 KC_-A AL hunteca01 1.7 -0.6 -3.3 4.4
1967 SF_-N NL perryga01 2 -1.2 -3.7 4.5
Ah - a key member of the "all-royalty" pitching staff, along with Silver King, John Tudor, and Pedro Borbon.
Not to mention his daddy. Daddy was the starter and loser for the Yankees in the game in which the St. Louis Browns clinched their only American League pennant in 1944.
The younger Queen was one of a number of Reds' pitchers who came up in the 60s and 70s, had one or two good seasons, and then flamed out with injuries. Gary Nolan is probably the best remembered of the group, which also included guys like Queen, Sammy Ellis, Billy McCool, and Wayne Simpson.
-- MWE
I also clicked OCF's link to the Gibson game with Schoendienst managing, where Bob just didn't have anything. I have no idea what was in Red's head, leaving him in for that shelling, but I do think I know how Red would go about taking Bob out of a game. If I understand the rules right, if the manager comes out of the clubhouse and makes that two-finger tap of the arm to indicate which reliever is coming in, that's it. The current pitcher is gone at that point. You get to do that BEFORE you have to actually talk to Gibson. I also don't want to demean Red totally as a manager. He did win two pennants and a WS. But he was like Bob Lemon or Harvey Kuenn; very passive. That only works as long as the stronger personalities on your team don't decide to take over the club. Having Red as your manager for a whole decade is just asking for trouble, especially if your roster contains Ted Simmons and Keith Hernandez. Red does hold one interesting record: He has spent more seasons in a major league uniform, as a player, coach and manager, than anyone else ever. Connie Mack managed in street clothes. The simple ability to convince your management that you have value for that long is pretty impressive. I would imagine that Red Schoendienst is a delightful man to hang around with.
Finally on another thread, someone called me out on Johnny Keane's getting fired after 1964. What I remembered was the public announcements that Johnny was all but gone and that Leo Durocher was in the wings. Apparently, the Cards changed their minds, and staged an event to re-up Keane. But Johnny was insulted and hurt, and resigned his job just before the big event. I remembered only the first half of the story. Sorry there. - Brock
The '67 baserunning play that I'm ragging on Cepeda for specifically: the May 30 game in which Hughes carried a perfect game into a rain delay and through 7, only to lose the no-hitter and give up two runs in the 8th. Top of the 9th, Cardinals down 2-1. Cepeda leads of with a single. McCarver, single, Cepeda to 3rd, so it's 1st and 3rd, nobody out, Cepeda the tying run. Gagilano (who had started the game instead of Shannon) batting. I don't know exactly how the Reds were playing the infield - possibly in at the corners, halfway at short and second. Or maybe in all the way. Gagliano grounded it to short. Cepeda didn't break. The Reds went for the 6-4-3 double play and got it, only now Cepeda was running - and he was out at the plate. Game-ending triple play.
One question: what is the "book" play for Cepeda there, in that exact situation? (1-3, 0 out, down 1 run in the 9th.) Should he have been going on contact?
Here's what my ballot looks like.... this is probably how it will look in the end:
1-Carl Yastrzemski 10000 (a run away win... first in all 7 systems I use)
2-Ron Santo 8592
3-Roberto Clemente 7719
4-Hank Aaron 7671
5-Harmon Killebrew 7575
6-Tim McCarver 7021 (with my 10% catcher bonus)
7-Al Kaline 6909
8-Jim Bunning 6841
9-Orlando Cepeda 6807
10-Bill Freehan 6422 (with my 10% catcher bonus)
11-15: Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson, Paul Blair, Dick Allen, Adolfo Phillips
16-20: Jim Ray Hart, Joe Horlen, Tony Gonzalez, Ted Abernathy, Jimmy Wynn
It's not entirely clear where Cepeda started on the play. There's a couple of sources on Newspaper Archive that indicate he was on second, not third. Retrosheet says third.
The AP article about the play has this:
On that same day, Jim Bunning homered off Juan Marichal in the 9th to give the Phillies a 5-4 win over the Giants, snapping a personal eight-game winning streak for Marichal. Can't imagine either starter being around at that point in today's game.
-- MWE
I'll post the HoM ballot at the beginning of next month.
I would, since I won't be posting the HoM ballot thread until Dec. 5.
1967 Prelim MMP Ballot
1. Carl Yastrzemski
2. Ron Santo
3. Hank Aaron
4. Roberto Clemente
5. Harmon Killebrew
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Al Kaline
8. Jim Bunning
9. Frank Robinson
10. Tim McCarver
11. Dick Allen
12. Paul Blair
13. Bill Freehan
14. Jim Ray Hart
15. Gary Nolan
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