Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Friday, January 27, 2012

Most Meritorious Player : 1969 Discussion

Most Meritorious Player: 1969 Discussion

Remember to put 12 names on your ballot. Expanded postseason means more opportunity for postseason credit.

Voting will end on February 22nd 2012.

Player 			Win	BB-ref
       			Shares	WAR
Rico Petrocelli		36.1	9.3
Reggie Jackson		39.9	9.7
Willie McCovey		39.3	8.9
Henry Aaron		37.2	8.3
Frank Robinson		31.8	7.4
Jim Wynn		36.1	8.1
Harmon Killebrew	33.8	6.1
Bobby Bonds		31.0	6.5
Pete Rose		36.8	6.9
Rusty Staub		26.4	5.9
Leo Cardenas		23.7	4.6
Jim Fregosi		25.8	5.2
Cleon Jones		30.0	7.6
Frank Howard		33.5	6.3
Sal Bando		35.3	8.9
Roberto Clemente	27.7	7.4
Johnny Bench		29.9	6.1
Paul Blair		27.0	6.2
Tony Perez		30.4	5.6
Luis Aparicio		19.7	3.9
Willie Stargell		27.0	5.2
Roy White		21.7	3.8
Carl Yastrzemski	25.4	4.6
Tommie Agee		28.1	5.6
Joe Morgan		24.0	4.2
Ron Santo		25.6	6.1
Rod Carew		21.5	5.1
Ken McMullen		23.6	6.2
Boog Powell		26.6	5.2

Bob Gibson		31.3	11.0
Larry Dierker		25.6	9.0
Denny McLain		28.6	7.5
Juan Marichal		28.9	8.5
Steve Carlton		23.2	7.2
Bill Hands		28.3	8.8
Phil Niekro		27.7	6.6
Tom Seaver		31.7	7.6
Claude Osteen		24.7	6.2
Andy Messersmith	21.5	5.1
Bill Singer		26.9	7.3
Jim Perry		20.6	5.3
Tommy John		17.6	5.2
Sam McDowell		21.2	6.3
Ferguson Jenkins	24.7	7.6
Mel Stottlemyre		25.3	5.3
Gaylord Perry		26.5	7.8
Jerry Koosman		26.0	6.7
Mike Cuellar		24.6	4.3
Ron Perranoski		19.4	4.0


DL from MN Posted: January 27, 2012 at 05:05 PM | 85 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. DL from MN Posted: January 27, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4047717)
hot topics
   2. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: January 27, 2012 at 05:49 PM (#4047769)
Ill Legible 1.9 6.9
   3. DL from MN Posted: January 27, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4047782)
They changed editing software and took away the preview function. I don't have time to fix it today.
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 27, 2012 at 06:50 PM (#4047818)
Prelim (no post-season bonuses and (only) a 1% demerit for AL players):

1) Reggie Jackson
2) Willie McCovey
3) Hank Aaron
4) Rico Petrocelli
5) Jim Wynn
6) Pete Rose
7) Tom Seaver
8) Bob Gibson
9) Sal Bando
10) Harmon Killebrew
   5. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 27, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4047846)
Oops! Didn't realize it's 12-man ballots now.

Prelim (no post-season bonuses and (only) a 1% demerit for AL players):

1) Reggie Jackson
2) Willie McCovey
3) Hank Aaron
4) Rico Petrocelli
5) Jim Wynn
6) Pete Rose
7) Tom Seaver
8) Bob Gibson
8) Sal Bando
10) Harmon Killebrew
11) Frank Howard
12) Frank Robinson
   6. Chris Fluit Posted: January 28, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4048078)
No guarantee because this looks like it will be a contested election but does Rico Petrocelli have a shot at becoming the first non-HOMer to win an MMP?
   7. DL from MN Posted: January 28, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4048110)
Petrocelli will be at the top of my ballot.
   8. DanG Posted: January 29, 2012 at 12:03 AM (#4048580)
Our customary survey of the top RP for 1969

Rk           Player WAR ERA+    WPA  WHIP GF GS    IP Age  Tm Lg  G  W  L SV  ERA  OPS
1    Ron Perranoski 4.0  176  4.181 1.145 52  0 119.2  33 MIN AL 75  9 10 31 2.11 .554
2         Ken Tatum 3.9  256  4.641 1.042 33  0  86.1  25 CAL AL 45  7  2 22 1.36 .495
3        Tug McGraw 2.7  163  5.632 1.355 26  4 100.1  24 NYM NL 42  9  3 12 2.24 .678
4       Sparky Lyle 2.6  152  0.573 1.354 44  0 102.2  24 BOS AL 71  8  3 17 2.54 .680
5      Vicente Romo 2.2  124  2.494 1.300 27 11 135.1  26 TOT AL 55  8 10 11 3.13 .703
6     Moe Drabowsky 2.1  125  0.175 1.000 37  0  98.0  33 KCR AL 52 11  9 11 2.94 .595
7       Diego Segui 2.0  109 
-1.192 1.321 38  8 142.1  31 SEP AL 66 12  6 12 3.35 .688
8      Hoyt Wilhelm 1.9  160  0.761 0.923 42  0  78.0  46 TOT ML 52  7  7 14 2.19 .517
9       Wilbur Wood 1.7  129 
-1.621 1.279 50  0 119.2  27 CHW AL 76 10 11 15 3.01 .689
10        Dick Hall 1.6  188  2.287 0.883 17  0  65.2  38 BAL AL 39  5  2  6 1.92 .535
11     Cecil Upshaw 1.6  126  1.450 1.244 47  0 105.1  26 ATL NL 62  6  4 27 2.91 .647
12       Jim Brewer 1.5  131 
-0.268 1.268 43  0  88.1  31 LAD NL 59  7  6 20 2.55 .628
13       Jim Roland 1.5  158  1.490 1.216  8  3  86.1  26 OAK AL 39  5  1  1 2.19 .555
14       Eddie Watt 1.5  219  1.440 1.056 41  0  71.0  28 BAL AL 56  5  2 16 1.65 .539
15   Darold Knowles 1.5  155  0.491 1.233 40  0  84.1  27 WSA AL 53  9  2 13 2.24 .670
16       Ron Taylor 1.5  134  1.015 1.118 44  0  76.0  31 NYM NL 59  9  4 13 2.72 .642
17       Phil Regan 1.5  109  0.764 1.384 49  0 112.0  32 CHC NL 71 12  6 17 3.70 .716 

   9. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4049246)
1969 Prelim (remember to vote for 12)

1) Rico Petrocelli
2) Reggie Jackson
3) Bob Gibson - another impressive season
4) Willie McCovey
5) Henry Aaron
6) Frank Robinson
7) Larry Dierker
8) Jim Wynn
9) Denny McLain
10) Harmon Killebrew - sorry Killer, you're not going to repeat here
11) Bobby Bonds
12) Juan Marichal
13-15) Pete Rose, Rusty Staub, Leo Cardenas
16-21) Steve Carlton, Jim Fregosi, Cleon Jones, Bill Hands, Frank Howard, Sal Bando
   10. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4049295)
Survey of postseason credit

Players in the consideration set - postseason stats
Harmon Killebrew - ALCS 12PA, 1H, 1 2B, 2R, 4BB, 2K
Leo Cardenas - ALCS 13PA, 2H, 1 3B, 0R, 0BB, 7K
Jim Perry - ALCS 1G, 8.0IP, 6H, 3ER, 3BB, 3K; 0 for 3 at the plate; Perranoski blew the save and they left him in to blow the game

Phil Niekro - NLCS 1G, 8.0IP, 9H, 4ER, 4BB, 4K; 0 for 3 at the plate
Henry Aaron - NLCS 14PA, 3R, 5H, 2 2B, 3HR, 0BB, 1K, 1.500 OPS

Tom Seaver - NLCS 1G, 7.0IP, 8H, 5ER, 3BB, 2K; 0 for 3 at the plate
WS 2G, 15.0IP, 12H, 5ER, 3BB, 9K; 0 for 4
Cleon Jones - NLCS 15PA, 6H, 2 2B, 1HR, 1BB, 2K, 1.252 OPS
WS 19PA, 2R, 3H, 1 2B, 0BB, 1K

Frank Robinson - ALCS 15PA, 1R, 4H, 2 2B, 1HR, 3BB, 3K, 1.217 OPS
WS 20PA, 2R, 3H, 1HR, 4BB, 3K, .725 OPS was highest of any position player on the Orioles
Paul Blair - ALCS 17PA, 1R, 6H, 2 2B, 1HR, 2BB, 2K, 1.204 OPS
WS 22PA, 1R, 2H, 2BB, 5K
   11. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4049307)
3) Hank Aaron
12) Frank Robinson

John Murphy - how do you find any separation between these two players in 1969? Here's how Dan R's data sees them

HAaron 6.1 -0.2 0.9 7.6
Robinson 5.8 0.2 0.8 7.5

To me that says the separation is all league strength.
   12. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4049392)
For some reason this is not showing up in the hot topics sidebar.
   13. fra paolo Posted: January 31, 2012 at 09:22 AM (#4050222)
As with the 1968 season, I did some custom linear weights for hits, walks and HBP for each league for 1969. Here are non-SB wOBA for all AL players with an OPS above .850.
Bando          .460
Killebrew      .401
Reggie!        .399
Petrocelli     .395
Frank Robinson .391
Howard         .389
Carew          .388
Powell         .380
Reggie Smith   .365
Yaz            .360
Oliva          .345
Northrup       .345

I'll post NL figures and also some results for pitchers another time.
   14. Chris Fluit Posted: January 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4050421)
1969 Prelim

1. Rico Petrocelli, SS, Boston Red Sox (167 OPS+, +16 fielding runs)
2. Willie McCovey, 1B, San Francisco Giants (209 OPS+!)
3. Reggie Jackson, RF, Oakland Athletics (189 OPS+, 144 runs created)
4. Bob Gibson, P, St. Louis Cardinals (164 ERA+, 314 innings and one of the best-hitting pitchers)
5. Harmon Killebrew, 1B/3B, Minnesota Twins (more time at third would have bumped him ahead of Gibson)
6. Hank Aaron, RF, Atlanta Braves (177 OPS+, 128 runs created)
7. Juan Marichal, P, San Francisco Giants (168 ERA+, 299 innings)
8. Frank Robinson, RF, Baltimore Orioles (165 OPS+, 126 runs created)
9. Bill Hands, P, Chicago Cubs (162 ERA+, 300 innings)
10. Pete Rose, RF, Cincinnati Reds (158 OPS+, 138 runs created- playing time and defensive value in CF push him ahead of Howard)
11. Frank Howard, LF, Washintgon Senators (178 OPS+, 132 runs created)
12. Tom Seaver, P, New York Mets (165 ERA+, 273 innings)

13. Larry Dierker
14. Roberto Clemente
15. Jimmy Wynn
16. Gaylord Perry
17. Rusty Staub
18. Denny McLain (the top pitcher in the AL)
19. Boog Powell
20. Sal Bando
   15. sunnyday2 Posted: January 31, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4050875)

1. McCovey
2. Reggie--close enough between the top 2
3. Killebrew--good year for sluggers
4. F. Robinson
5. Seaver--thought he'd be higher
6. Aaron--can't believe he's still hangin' around
7. Bando
8. Petrocelli
9. Rose
10. Powell

11. F.Howard
12. Gibson
13. Santo
14. Wynn
15. McLain
16. Agee
17. Marichal
18. C. Jones
19. Hands
20. Oliva

21. Perez
22. B. Williams
23. Dierker
24. Yaz
25. Clemente, Bonds or Carlton
   16. fra paolo Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4051181)
wOBA of NL players with .850 or higher OPS, using custom linear weights
McCovey     .404
Aaron       .394
Staub       .391
Wynn        .388
Clemente    .383
Rose        .382
Dick Allen  .379
Cleon Jones .376
Stargell    .375
Santo       .361
Tony Perez  .360
Mack Jones  .357
Lee May     .348

Johnny Bench just misses the .850 cut-off, and his wOBA was .346

Given Bando's remarkable wOBA, I'm curious why he isn't ranked a bit higher on the prelims we've had so far. I have a fielding system I might take a look at to see how well he does with the glove.
   17. DL from MN Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4051250)

Bando .460
Killebrew .401
Reggie! .399

Reggie and Bando played in the same park and Reggie had the better slash line .275/.405/.610 to Bando's .281/.400/.484. Reggie has 12HBP to Bando's 11. How does he gain 60 points of WOBA?

Reggie also has a 13/5 SB line to Bando's 1/4.
   18. fra paolo Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4051330)
How does [Bando] gain 60 points of WOBA?

Reggie has 20 IBBs to Bando's 5. Net +15 to Bando. Bando has 20 more hits. Bando also has 68 fewer PAs. So 35 more times on base in 68 fewer PAs.

ALSO CORRECTION: Bando's wOBA is .454. I forgot to subtract his IBB.
   19. DL from MN Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4051366)
Bando has 734PA, Reggie has 677PA. Bando has more PAs. If Bando had been on base more times in fewer PA it would be pretty obvious in his OBP.

edit: Dan R has Bando at 5-6 runs below average fielding. BBRef has Bando at +3 runs. Not much to see there.
   20. Rob_Wood Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4051467)
Note that the BB-Ref WAR figures in the header for pitchers is the pitching component and not the overall WAR (it ignores batting and fielding). Makes a difference in a few key places.
   21. fra paolo Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4051526)
Revised AL wOBA after my embarrassing use of Bando's ABs, and not PAs.

Killebrew      .401
Reggie!        .399
Petrocelli     .395
Frank Robinson .391
Howard         .389
Carew          .388
Powell         .380
Bando          .377
Reggie Smith   .365
Yaz            .360
Oliva          .345
Northrup       .345
   22. Rob_Wood Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4051537)
Thanks fra for doing this. For awhile I was wondering if you had uncovered a hidden gem in 1969 Bando. :)
   23. DL from MN Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4051545)
Rob - Thanks for noting that. Here's more detail for the top pitchers.

Bob Gibson 11.0+0.8-0.1 = 11.7
Larry Dierker 9.0-0.4-0.2=8.4
Denny McLain 7.5-0.2-0.2=7.1
Juan Marichal 8.5-0.2-0.2=8.1
Steve Carlton 7.2+0.3-0.1=7.4
Bill Hands 8.8-0.4-0.2=8.2
Phil Niekro 6.6+0.3-0.1=6.9
Tom Seaver 7.6+0.2-0.2=7.6
   24. Rob_Wood Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4051685)
My prelim ballot (very open to discussion/change):

1. Willie McCovey
2. Reggie Jackson
3. Bob Gibson
4. Rico Petrocelli
5. Hank Aaron
6. Jimmy Wynn
7. Tom Seaver
8. Harmon Killebrew
9. Frank Robinson
10. Pete Rose

11. Frank Howard
12. Juan Marichal
13. Sal Bando
14. Denny McLain
15. Roberto Clemente
16. Boog Powell
17. Cleon Jones
18. Larry Dierker
19. Paul Blair
20. Bobby Bonds

21. Mike Epstein
22. Ken McMullen
23. Ron Santo
24. Johnny Bench
25. Rusty Staub
26. Mike Cuellar
27. Willie Stargell
28. Jim Fregosi
29. Sam McDowell
30. Bill Hands

31. Jim Perry
32. Rod Carew
33. Tony Perez
34. Mel Stottlemyre
35. Carl Yastrzemski
36. Gaylord Perry
37. Ferguson Jenkins
38. Andy Messersmith
39. Bill Singer
40. Reggie Smith

As in prior years, my vote reflects my belief that the NL is still the stronger league.
   25. DL from MN Posted: February 01, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4051756)
There is no clear consensus except that Reggie and McCovey belong near the top. Down ballot is just as crowded. Hopefully we get better participation this election.
   26. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: February 02, 2012 at 07:40 AM (#4051831)
Petrocelli and Gibson have to be way up there too, no?
   27. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 02, 2012 at 08:19 AM (#4051838)
John Murphy - how do you find any separation between these two players in 1969? Here's how Dan R's data sees them

HAaron 6.1 -0.2 0.9 7.6
Robinson 5.8 0.2 0.8 7.5

To me that says the separation is all league strength.

Your conclusion is incorrect, DL. As I pointed out above, I'm only dinging American Leaguers a percentage point, so that's not going to hurt Robby that much at all. I just have Aaron as the superior hitter and fielder, that's all.

As for Dan R.s' data, while I respect his work, I don't agree with many of his conclusions (and with linear-based systems in general for measuring the greatness of individual players - measuring a team's strength is a different story).

One last thing: placing at #12 is not meant to be a knock on his contributions. He had a great season, but the '69 group was pretty strong. In other years, Robinson might have made the top-five or even competed for the top prize.
   28. JPWF1313 Posted: February 02, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4051884)
Player Win BB-ref
Shares WAR
Rico Petrocelli 36.1 9.3

There's a bit on Ball Four where Bouton recalls how the Yankee's manager went through the respective Yankee and Redsox lineups, position by position, to motivate the Yankees, and it seems that the Yankee shad the "edge" at every position but one, the Yankee manager admitted that Yaz/Maris was a tie... At the time I thought it was a joke, Kubek over Petrocelli??? Hector Lopez (who?) over Tony C??? Bobby Richardson over Mantilla???

Reading it in 1980 most of the Sox names were more familiar to me as good players than half the Yankee names (I mean aside from Mantle/Maris)- the Yankee names I was familiar with, Pepitone/Tresh, etc I was familiar with as being renowned busts/disappointments...

Rico was alternately great and nothing special, his career curve has a rather normal shape, albeit with a prominent spike in his age 26 season (1969 of course), and a bit abbreviated at both ends. He seems to have been player whose numbers were more responsive to playing conditions than most- if HRs went up league wide by 10% his would go up 50%... very unusual player for his time, low average, high walk, slugging SS... His numbers look like a 3B's (which of course he was for the later half of his career)
   29. DL from MN Posted: February 02, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4051902)
Petrocelli and Gibson have not been consistently in the top of the prelim ballots so far. We haven't even seen a majority of ballots with Gibson as the top pitcher.
   30. sunnyday2 Posted: February 02, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4052061)
Player A .276/.426/.584, about 700 PA
Player B .275/.400/.608, about 663 PA

How is Player B on average 6 places better?

Player A on base about 298 times, 140 RBI, 106 R, 84 K
Player B on base about 265 times, 118 RBI, 123 R, 142 K

Maybe one was more graceful than the other?
   31. Chris Fluit Posted: February 02, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4052099)
First, Player B's OBP is .410, not .400.

Second, although their OPS numbers are similar (1.018 to 1.011 in favor of player B), league park factors show a larger disparity (OPS+ of 189 to 177).

Third, Player B is credited with better defense (+8 fielding runs/+1.1 dWAR to -14 fielding runs/-1.3 dWAR)

With pitchers and players from another league, that's enough to account for multiple ballot positions in the middle of these two excellent players.

ps. I only have them two spots apart myself but I understand how others might have a larger division.
   32. Chris Fluit Posted: February 02, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4052102)
Petrocelli and Gibson have not been consistently in the top of the prelim ballots so far. We haven't even seen a majority of ballots with Gibson as the top pitcher.

I'm surprised by that. Especially sunnyday's ballot that had Petrocelli 8th and Gibson 12th.
   33. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 02, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4052111)
First, Player B's OBP is .410, not .400.

Second, although their OPS numbers are similar (1.018 to 1.011 in favor of player B), league park factors show a larger disparity (OPS+ of 189 to 177).

Third, Player B is credited with better defense (+8 fielding runs/+1.1 dWAR to -14 fielding runs/-1.3 dWAR)

With pitchers and players from another league, that's enough to account for multiple ballot positions in the middle of these two excellent players.

That sums it up nicely, Chris.

BTW, I didn't even have to know who the players were that Marc was comparing to know one of them had to be a Twin. ;-)
   34. fra paolo Posted: February 02, 2012 at 08:40 PM (#4052388)
NL pitchers' wOBA, using custom linear weights, for all pitchers with an ERA+ of 150 or better:
Juan Marichal   .246
Larry Dierker   .2539
Jerry Koosman   .2540
Tom Seaver      .2608
Bob Gibson      .2610
Bill Hands      .276
Steve Carlton   .282
   35. lieiam Posted: February 03, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4052503)
Here's my preliminary list.
I still haven't added in bpWARP1 in with the other 6 systems...
And there's still some guys I need to get brWAR numbers for...
But here's my top 12 as it currently stands:

9289 reggie jackson
9016 rico petrocelli
8880 willie mccovey
8728 bob gibson
8110 hank aaron
7927 jim wynn
7642 sal bando
7437 juan marichal
7400 frank robinson
7358 harmon killebrew
7263 pete rose
7122 phil niekro

This year looks to be pretty competitive...
Of the six systems that went into this ranking, there are 4 different players
who come out number one....
   36. fra paolo Posted: February 03, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4052970)
AL pitchers' wOBA, greater than 150 ERA+, plus Denny McLain:
Mike Cuellar   .246
Dick Bosman    .256
Jim Palmer     .263
Denny McLain   .272

The average wOBA for an AL starter in 1969 was .306.
The average wOBA for an NL starter in 1969 was .299.

So the question that springs to mind is 'why isn't Mike Cuellar getting a bit more attention?'
   37. DL from MN Posted: February 03, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4053013)
Cuellar's nifty 24IP in the postseason helps him close the innings gap with McLain.

The reason he's not getting the love is his credit is going to his defense. Belanger, Blair and Brooks Robinson were all excellent defenders. BBREF says that ALL of his fielders were above average in 1969 - total of 10.7 dWAR for that team.
   38. lieiam Posted: February 04, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4053450)
I've got a few questions...

1)DL from MN- Could you provide a list of some of the leading pitchers using what you have of Dan R's numbers?
2)Dan G- Could you do your usual bpWARP leaders list?
3)Dan G- Also, how do I get the pitcher WARP1 numbers at bp? I can get the position players using info I got from you previously, and it also will get pitcher info but in the pitcher info there isn't WARP1 data...

   39. DanG Posted: February 04, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4053646)
2)Dan G- Could you do your usual bpWARP leaders list?
3)Dan G- Also, how do I get the pitcher WARP1 numbers at bp?
The "annual" process I use is this. Go to each team's page for that year at Baseball Prospectus and look for every player whose WARP1 plus WARP 3 is 10 or more.

For example, the 1969 Cardinals.

There we find:

8.3 7.1 Steve Carlton
11.0 9.6 Bob Gibson

Enter this on a spreadsheet, then go to the next team.
   40. OCF Posted: February 05, 2012 at 12:59 AM (#4053738)
Pitchers' RA+ Pythpat equivalent records. (Just starters for now).

Gibson: 24-10 (very good hitter)
Seaver: 21-9
Hands: 22-11 (bad hitter)
McLain: 24-12
Koosman: 19-8 (dreadful hitter)
Marichal: 22-11
Dierker: 22-12
Singer: 22-13 (bad hitter)
Carlton: 18-8 (good hitter)
Jenkins: 21-13
G. Perry: 22-14 (bad hitter)
J. Perry: 19-10
Stottlemyre: 20-13 (good hitter)

Offense was back up from 3.42 runs/game in 1968 to 4.08 (NL) and 4.09 (AL). Which still makes it a pitcher's era. Being a "virtual" 20 gam winner - that is, 20 RA+ equivalent wins - really isn't all that common. There were a huge number of them in 1969, in large part because there were a lot of guys with 300+ IP.

Gibson is clearly the best pitcher of the year - he's already on top even before we figure in his hitting, and he was the best hitter among the 300-inning workhorses.
   41. lieiam Posted: February 05, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4053834)
Thanks for the showing me the way to link to teams... And that has gotten me ALMOST finished... But how do I find teams that normally have two letter abreviations? Because my attempts with those failed (LA, SF, NY, SD, KC, NY)?
   42. DanG Posted: February 05, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4053894)
two letter abreviations?
It looks like they use an underline in place of the third letter:

Alternatively, you could just go to the page of a player who plays for LA (Osteen) and click on the team name on the line for the year you want.
   43. fra paolo Posted: February 05, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4053897)
McLain vs Cuellar, defences.

The problem with comparing McLain and Cuellar is that one is an extreme flyball pitcher, and the other an extreme groundball pitcher. About 59 per cent of McLain's in-play outs were Flyball Outs. Cuellar had 56 percent Groundball Outs. Rather than use defences collectively, in this example I think one needs to break-out the components a bit more.

I have my own defensive system, which attempts to estimate zone ratings, and then uses Chris Dial's DRS method to calculate the amount of runs saved. I don't take it down to the level of individual players, as I don't think the data will stand it. For example, I have ratings for Baltimore 1B, but not for Boog Powell.

To get a comparison, I ranked positions against the League, using my system and BB-ref TotalZone numbers, rather than give a direct 'runs-saved' comparison, because that way I think one gets a better sense of how defences compare in terms of the support they give pitchers in a head-to-head comparison like this.
Team       Pos   BB-ref     fp
Tigers     LF      =3rd     3rd
Tigers     CF      4th      3rd
Tigers     RF      4th     10th
Orioles    3B      1st      1st
Orioles    SS      5th      6th
Orioles    2B     =2nd      6th
Orioles    1B      1st      8th

The big discrepancies come with Tigers' rightfielders, and the right side of the Orioles' infield. I always thought Powell was considered a bit of a DH avant la lettre as a fielder, but BB-ref TZ would suggest otherwise. Also, I never thought of Davey Johnson being a gloveman, but again TZ would suggest otherwise.

My ratings confirm what I thought much better than TotalZone. In which case, McLain has decent support from his mainstay defenders, and I think the gap between him and Cuellar narrows considerably. However, if TZ is preferred, then Cuellar's case for AL 'Cy Young' is weakened substantially.
   44. fra paolo Posted: February 05, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4053911)
Further to my comments about Powell and Johnson, WSAB at Seamheads ranks Powell as the 10th-best fielding 1B in the AL in 1969, and Johnson as the 5th-best fielding 2B. I haven't counted up the team scores, but those look much more like 'fra paolo ratings' than TotalZone ones. I suspect the problem is that my approach to distributing chances is more like Win Shares than that of TotalZone.

I might look at Humprhys' DRA later, but my spreadsheets for that seem to have the data out of the proper column alignment, which is making comparisons awkward. If someone has the data correctly slotted into columns, I'd be grateful if they could have a look.
   45. OCF Posted: February 05, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4053932)
Three more pitchers to add to my post #40:

Cuellar: 21-12 (bad hitter, no correction for defense)
Tatum: 8-1
Tatum adjusted for inherited runners: 11-3 (excellent hitter)
Perranoski: 10-4
Perranoski adjusted for inherited runners: 15-7

Yet another virtual 20-game winner. This was the year for them.

It's usually completely unimportant how a relief pitcher bats. And Tatum only had 24 PA. But in those 24 PA, he hit .286/.318/.619 for an OPS+ of 164, so I felt that was worth mentioning. He had a short major league career, but his other seasons and his minor league record are consistent with him being a hitter for real, with serious power. But I see no evidence that he was ever used as a PH in the majors, and it would be hard to use a RP that way, since you don't know when you'll need his arm.
   46. lieiam Posted: February 05, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4054164)
Thanks a lot!
That's a big help...
   47. DL from MN Posted: February 06, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4054623)
Dan R's (outdated) pitching numbers for the top 16 pitchers by WARP2

playerid YEAR TEAM Lg IP/162 DERA PWAA1 BWAA1 StdevAdj TransIP PWAA2 BWAA2 Rep WARP2
gibsobo01 1969 STL-N NL 316 3.03 6.2 -0.6 1.108 264.2 5.7 -0.4 -4 9.4
dierkla01 1969 HOU-N NL 307.3 3.06 5.9 -1.7 1.108 256.8 5.4 -1.3 -3.9 8.1
mclaide01 1969 DET-A AL 325 3.3 5.1 -1.5 1.166 271.6 4.9 -1.2 -4 7.8
maricju01 1969 SF_-N NL 301.6 3.24 4.9 -1.6 1.108 252.1 4.6 -1.2 -3.8 7.2
handsbi01 1969 CHI-N NL 301.9 3.29 4.7 -1.9 1.108 252.4 4.4 -1.4 -3.7 6.7
carltst01 1969 STL-N NL 237.8 3.12 4.3 -0.5 1.108 198.8 4 -0.4 -3 6.6
niekrph01 1969 ATL-N NL 286.1 3.41 3.9 -0.9 1.108 239.2 3.6 -0.7 -3.5 6.5
osteecl01 1969 LA_-N NL 323.1 3.7 3.1 -0.7 1.108 270 2.8 -0.6 -4.1 6.3
seaveto01 1969 NY_-N NL 275.1 3.39 3.9 -1.3 1.108 229.9 3.6 -1 -3.5 6.1
singebi01 1969 LA_-N NL 317.7 3.53 3.8 -2.1 1.108 265.6 3.5 -1.6 -3.9 5.8
messean01 1969 CAL-A AL 250 3.44 3.4 -0.9 1.166 209 3.3 -0.7 -3.1 5.7
jenkife01 1969 CHI-N NL 313.3 3.7 3 -1.4 1.108 261.9 2.7 -1.1 -4 5.6
stottme01 1969 NY_-A AL 303 3.8 2.5 -0.8 1.166 253.3 2.4 -0.7 -3.8 5.5
perryga01 1969 SF_-N NL 327.4 3.71 3.1 -1.9 1.108 273.7 2.8 -1.4 -4.1 5.5
perryji01 1969 MIN-A AL 261.7 3.54 3.1 -1 1.166 218.7 3.1 -0.8 -3.3 5.5
mcdowsa01 1969 CLE-A AL 285 3.62 3.1 -1.3 1.166 238.2 3 -1 -3.4 5.4
   48. Mr. C Posted: February 07, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4055320)
I am a new member to BTF, but have been following these discussions for several months. I have spent some years following player evaluation and have used other's ideas trying to come up with my own framework. So when DL form MN commetned he hoped there would be more votes for 1969, I decided to give it a shot.

This is my preliminary ballot:
1. Bob Gibson
2. Rico Petrocelli
3. Reggie Jackson
4. Larry Dierker
5. Willie McCovey
6. Juan Marichal
7. Hank Aaron
8. Frank Robinson
9. Sal Bando
10. Harmon Killebrew
11. Bill Hands
12. Paul Blair

next 5
Steve Carlton
Roberto Clemente
denny McLain
Tom Seaver
Jim Wynn

   49. fra paolo Posted: February 07, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4055324)
After reviewing fielding, and using my list of AL players, these are the ones most affected by their glove:

Killebrew cost his team about a win with his fielding at 3B. He's not great at 1B, but I wouldn't count it against him for the same reason I disregard it for others on my list, explained below.
Howard is really bad in LF, but...
...he's not as bad as Bando at 3B. Bando gives almost half his value with the bat back.
Yastrzemski is into the 'costs a win' territory, but it's close enough that we have to bear in mind Fenway's park effects.
Oliva gets a boost in RF, maybe one and a half wins.

The rest of my list are best regarded as adequate with the glove, and probably one should disregard their fielding for meritorious purposes, given the inability to be precise with defensive statistics.
   50. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4055389)
Mr. C - looks like a perfectly acceptable ballot. Nice to have some new perspectives. Do you have any interest in sharing your voting philosophy? It usually helps in the discussion. If I know where a person is coming from it helps me point out things they may have overlooked or influences my own perspective.
   51. fra paolo Posted: February 07, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4055453)
I missed someone off my list in [49]:

Carew only started 106 games at 2B for the Twins, but seems to have added about a win.

Apropos of nothing in particular, I have the White Sox infield appearing as historically bad — on the order of costing 11 games bad. The villains appear to be Gail Hopkins (who hit a foul ball I caught in the upper deck of Tiger Stadium in about 1972 when he was with the Royals), Luis Aparicio(!) at age 35 and Bill Melton. Hopkins only made 94 starts at 1B, and 2B was only marginally more stable with Bobby Knoop starting 100 games.
   52. Chris Fluit Posted: February 07, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4055458)
Welcome, Mr. C!
   53. Rob_Wood Posted: February 07, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4055522)
Welcome aboard Mr. C!
   54. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4055832)
I guess it wouldn't hurt to share my voting philosophy. I use Dan R's standard deviation adjusted WAR data. I look at WAR and wins above average. I try to include postseason credit. I don't really consider dominance of a position more than it shows up in WAR and WAA. I try to doublecheck the defensive numbers if possible.
   55. bjhanke Posted: February 07, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4055841)
Mr. C -

Another welcome to the group. And I agree with DL: Your ballot looks completely sane to me. I may not end up agreeing with all of it, but I would be willing to defend it if someone got cranky and picky. The only real oddity that I see is Dierker at #4. Can you explain how you got him that high? That's all I see to question.

- Brock Hanke
   56. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4055898)
Brock - a straight BBREF WAR ballot would have Dierker ahead of McCovey 9.0 to 8.9. I guess the question is "Why does BBREF WAR love Dierker?"
   57. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: February 07, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4055986)
Probably because he threw 305 innings at a 152 ERA+ despite what TZ sees as downright putrid fielders behind him? And it docks McCovey 0.8 wins for bad fielding at 1B.
   58. Mr. C Posted: February 07, 2012 at 08:14 PM (#4056007)
Thanks guys

DL from MN: I use a WAR framework. For hitters I use wOBA, adjusted for park, fielding and position: nothing very original. The real problem, as has been mentioned is the fielding adjustment. I use Total Zone numbers only because they are the only ones which seem readily available. If anyone can point me an another direction, I would certainly look into it.

For pitchers I start with runs above average, adjust for park, and fielders, then covert to a WAR number.

My question has been and still is: Since everyone being consider is pretty much a full time player, is WAA a better indicator of excellence than WAR? I am still debating this for my final ballot.

bjhanks: Dierker is one of about 10 pitchers in the NL who had fantastic seasons. The thing that sets Dierker apart is, as mentioned above, that he achieves these numbers playing in front of an awful defense. Contrast that to Seaver, who had better raw numbers, but played in front of a team with very good defense. McCovey's great offensive numbers are affected both because he plays first base and doesn't do it very well. I will make another post about my take on NL pitchers later.
   59. Mr. C Posted: February 07, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4056098)
NL Pitcher top 6 by WAA. W% is calculated using the pythagapat method. The adjusted w% has been park and fielding (TZ) adjusted

Orig w% Adjust w% WAA
Gibson .709 .713 7.4
Dierker .649 .696 poor defense 6.6
Marichal .669 .678 5.9
Hands .623 .661 Hitters park 5.4
Carlton .695 .695 5.1
Seaver .701 .643 good defense 4.3

There are another 6 with a w% of .600 or more. I have been quite fascinated by the quality of the top pitchers in the ML, especially when compared to the crop in the AL.
   60. Howie Menckel Posted: February 07, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4056106)

"Remember to put 12 names on your ballot."

   61. lieiam Posted: February 07, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4056121)
I would like to make a correction to DL from MN 's comment #56:
McCovey finished AHEAD of Dierker in BaseballReferenceWAR 8.9-8.4 (he drops from 9.0 to 8.4 when you include batting and defense). In BaseballProspectusWARP1 Dierker does indeed top McCovey (9.8-8.7).
[And by the way, Dierker is now 8th on my updated prelim ballot (not posted)].
   62. DL from MN Posted: February 08, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4056271)
True lieiam - I made the mistake of looking up my numbers at the top of the page again.
   63. bjhanke Posted: February 08, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4056371)
Mr. C and DL -

Thanks for the info. I'm so used to averaging various systems that it never occurred to me to just look at one column at the top of the page here. When I looked at the two columns there, they differed so badly on Dierker that I remembered him as a problem, but forgot how high he ranked in one column. Now I wonder how TZ came to its conclusion. The Dome was, of course, a very unusual (actually, unique) ballpark in 1969, which may have thrown the system off. The team itself has some guys (Menke) that I recognize as bad gloves at their positions, but also some (Edwards, Wynn, Morgan) that I recognize as good. Also, the only starter over 30 is Edwards at catcher, whose Gold Glove was all that kept him in the league. Other than that, there's no one who should have lost his defense to age. That is, just looking at the names and ages, there's no reason I can think of for the Astros to have had a really lousy defense. Wonder what TZ is seeing....

- Brock
   64. fra paolo Posted: February 08, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4056403)
After allocating some value to fielding, I took my AL guys and went back to the wOBA. This time I calculated an average wOBA* for the league at each position, then replaced that value with that of one of the AL guys. So, for example, Reggie!'s .399 is used in place of the wOBA for AL RFs, which was .322. I then converted both the non-Reggie! and Reggie! lineups to runs. This enabled me to compare the impact of each player in an average AL lineup and resulted in the following ranking of AL players, including those where fielding is a factor:

Reggie Smith

Some notes:
Petrocelli and Carew benefit from being very good hitters at non-hitting positions. They add a lot more value as a result. Carew didn't play much, though, so probably falls behind Reggie! and Killebrew once one takes that into account. In this case, I'm probably going to have to look at WPA/LI intensively.
I see Killebrew and Reggie! as very close indeed, even with Killebrew's poor fielding. It seems Killebrew's time hitting at 3B added more value than his glove took away, relative to the rest of the league. Shades of 2012 Miguel Cabrera at 3B?
I don't see anyone outside the top four making my ballot, and possibly one of those four will miss out. At the moment I'm guessing 3-4 AL players, 4-5 NL players, 2-3 NL pitchers, 1-2 AL pitchers.
* Excluding SBs.
   65. DL from MN Posted: February 08, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4056512)
So Carew's WOBA excludes SB and still has him that high. 1969 is the season Carew stole home 7 times.
   66. DL from MN Posted: February 08, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4056520)
Here's an interesting tidbit from Carew's online biography:

"He garnered his first batting title in 1969, despite missing two-weeks and several weekends for military commitments."

This deserves a deeper look.
   67. lieiam Posted: February 08, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4056530)
Oh, and thanks DL from MN for your list of the old Dan R pitching numbers in comment 47!
   68. bjhanke Posted: February 08, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4056834)
DL (comment 66) -

I'm old enough to recognize the military thing for Carew. The issue was the Vietnam draft. There were a few privileged ways to get out of the draft without fleeing to Canada or going to jail. One was to get one of the rare spots in the National Guard or Reserves that weren't likely to be called up. That forced you to miss one two-week period in yearly drill and training, and at least one weekend a month for refresher drill. I think that's still the deal if you join the Guard or Reserves. At the time, a lot of professional athletes got these things, because the local congressman would pull strings, so their hometown stars could play instead of going to fight. My memory is that this was more prevalent in football than baseball, but I'm pretty sure that Carew didn't have a deal any different from any of the other pro athletes who got this break.

There was some controversy over it at the time, but that died down about 3 weeks after the war ended.

- Brock
   69. Mr. C Posted: February 08, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4056948)

You asked an interesting question about Houston's defense. The best stat I can think of to compare general defensive ability is the % of balls in play turned into outs (DER).

The league average DER in the NL for 1969 was .701. Houston's DER was .683 (the lowest in the league). This stat doesn't tell us who wasn't making the plays, but it is a good indicator there was somebody who wasn't.

In contrast, the Mets had the best DER at .729.
   70. Howie Menckel Posted: February 09, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4056953)
"He garnered his first batting title in 1969, despite missing two-weeks and several weekends for military commitments."

yes, pretty common in the late 1960s.
The NY Daily News was always running photos of players on duty doing chin-ups or something.
Nolan Ryan was one; I still have the scrapbook around here somewhere....
   71. Rob_Wood Posted: February 09, 2012 at 01:22 AM (#4056969)
A little off topic here. I thought Rod Carew was a citizen of Panama (he always proudly claimed that). So how come he entered US military service? Was he actually born in the Panama Canal Zone and did this make him a dual citizen? Was he compelled into military service (via the draft)?

Anyway, yes these weird military service arrangements were fairly common in the 1960s. (Elgin Baylor did this in the early 1960s and had one of his greatest years.)
   72. OCF Posted: February 09, 2012 at 01:23 AM (#4056970)
My first reaction to the story of Carew and the military reserve commitment was that I didn't know that Carew was a U.S. citizen. Turns out that he was born in the Canal Zone - would that have made him a U.S. citizen at birth? And he went to high school in New York City.
   73. DL from MN Posted: February 09, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4057214)
Are Astrodome park effects part of the reason too? If you have no defensive support but the field is helping the pitcher it could distort things.
   74. bjhanke Posted: February 09, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4057563)
The ballpark is the one thing I can think of that would produce such a lousy DER as Mr. C cites. I only was in the Dome once, and that was in 1965, but I remember that it was the windiest ballpark I'd ever been in except Candlestick. The reason, of course, was the air conditioning. You have fans blowing in cold air, which then sinks and causes hotter air to rise, so you got a lot of breeze from the convection currents. Also, although this may have been fixed by 1969, I would not want to try to track a fly ball looking up at that ceiling. Real easy for a ball to just get visually lost. It's also possible that the fielders were having trouble with the Astroturf, which was a new thing. Even MLB defenders surely had to take some time to figure out how to play that plastic. In any case, the fact that the DER is so low is certainly an argument in Dierker's behalf. Thanks for responding. You made a good case here.

- Brock
   75. fra paolo Posted: February 09, 2012 at 09:02 PM (#4057677)
I looked at the fielding for NL positions, again using my system. I'm not entirely happy with my results here, because Freddie Patek, playing SS at Pittsburgh, put in one of the worst fielding seasons in history in 1969. Anyone playing that badly would surely have to have been benched. I'd never heard anything like that about him before. Pittsburgh had the second-highest ratio of ground outs to air outs in the league, but their shortstops managed to field the second-lowest total of assists. (However, their many 2Bs had the highest assist total, suggesting a righty-lefty issue I'm not adjusting enough for.)

There's another apparently anomalous result, which I'll get to in a moment. Excluding the aforementioned anomaly, this is how my system regards the fielding of players in my NL wOBA list.

McCovey, Aaron and Wynn all cost their teams about a win with the glove.
Santo and Allen are hovering around a remarkable three wins. Allen takes away something like 75 per cent of his value with the bat, before I adjust for position.
On the plus side, Cleon Jones and May add something like a win and a bit more.
Apart from the anomaly, everyone else's fielding doesn't add or subtract enough to make it worth noting. Overall, my impression is that the NL's best hitters as a group were worse fielders than their AL counterparts.

Having said that, Tony Perez seems to have almost doubled his value with the glove, adding about three wins. At first, I refused to believe this, but the more I look at it, the more I think that his fielding is that good. Cincinnati's staff ratio of ground outs to air outs was below the league average. Cincinnati 3Bs had 354 assists, enough to finish with the second highest total in the league. Perez himself had 342 to lead the league's 3Bs.

Unless someone knows something that isn't showing up in the statistics, Perez' fielding and batting combined take him up quite high in the list.

I've already plugged each of these players into an average lineup to see how much one gains relative to the league average bat at each position, but I'll leave that until tomorrow.
   76. fra paolo Posted: February 10, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4058074)
My ranking NL players by estimated value when hitting in a league-average lineup (includes fielding):

Tony Perez
Cleon Jones
Lee May
Mack Jones

I'm less confident about this order than I am about the AL one because the fielding results don't look right. There are a lot more extreme performances, mostly on the bad sad. I've tried tweaking some of the way effects are calculated, especially for outfielders, but everything I do simply swaps the rankings around at the extremes rather than filling in the middle. At the moment, I'm forced to conclude that NL fielders were either very bad or very good in 1969. Perhaps an effect of expansion?

I also applied these tweaks to the AL with the following effects:

Reggie!'s, FRobinson's and Reggie Smith's fielding got a lot worse.
Oliva's fielding got a bit worse.
As a consequence of this Bando climbed the value chart, while Reggie! fell well behind Killebrew.

Basically, outfielders lost out, which surprised me as I was thinking that my system was already too harsh on them. I thought this tweak (which increased the significance of OF POs in awarding value to OFs) would make them look better!

A further consequence of all this is that I now foresee have 4-5 AL players and 3-4 NL ones on my final list, rather than the other way round. So my player shortlist has a lot of infielders on it and looks something like

Petrocelli, Carew, Killebrew, Bando, Reggie!
Perez, Cleon Jones, Rose, Bench

I'm going to look at pitchers some more. Note that McLain is going to gain a lot in comparison with Cuellar if I stick to this worsening of outfielder fielding value.
   77. DL from MN Posted: February 13, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4060108)
Voting will start soon. If you haven't voted before please post a prelim here.
   78. fra paolo Posted: February 13, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4060312)
I have a pitcher ranking system that is aimed at replacing the effect of a pitcher's actual defence with a league-average value. The result is a 'wins above average' number, which can be used to calculate a won-lost record. The AL pitchers come out as follows:

McLain 25.7 wins, 6.3 losses for an .829 winning percentage.
Cuellar 24.6 wins, 5.4 losses for an .820 winning percentage.
Bosman 20.3 wins, 3.7 losses for an .846 winning percentage
Palmer 16.3 wins, 3.7 losses for an .815 winning percentage.

McLain contributes the most wins, but Bosman is the most successful pitcher in his starts, just not so many of them. I'm likely to put McLain on the ballot ahead of Cuellar. I don't think Bosman pitched enough ahead of his peers to qualify, but I'll wait to see how the NL pitchers turn out.
   79. fra paolo Posted: February 13, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4060319)
My win totals for Cuellar and McLain are slightly ahead of OCFs, but I give them many fewer losses. I've got Cuellar a lot closer to McLain.

It does look to me, in the final analysis that Cuellar was helped a bit more by his defence than McLain, but I don't see it as much of a substantial difference as WAR does. I'm not quite ready to argue that it's either both or none on the ballot, but if McLain is in the top half, I'd be interested to read arguments on why Cuellar shouldn't join him lower down.
   80. Mike Emeigh Posted: February 13, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4060336)
Brock's probably correct about the Astrodome being a contributor to the Astros' relatively bad defense - the visibility was really bad there. However, I doubt that was the entire story - notably, Houston's in-play BA was only one point worse at home than it was on the road. The Astros had one of the youngest pitching staffs in the league - three of the four primary starters were 24 or younger, and Jim Ray, the key swing man, was also 24 - and they were to some extent still learning how to pitch.

Interestingly, when Bouton came over to Houston at the end of 1969, he raved about Morgan and Menke and he loved Edwards's ability to handle the knuckler.

-- MWE
   81. Sunday silence Posted: February 14, 2012 at 08:12 PM (#4061197)
I wanted to comment on the Jim Bouton story above when Houk went through the lineups one by one. If you look at the names that Bouton says Houk mentioned, there was never a time when all 12 or 14 or whatever players were on the Red Sox and Yankees at the same time. I think Pagliaroni is one of the ones that just doesnt fit any of the possible combinations. I dont doubt the overall story, it's just that Bouton messed up the names somehow. It's kind of fun to try to think about which players it might have been. Sort of like the tracer game that Bill James liked to play.
   82. OCF Posted: February 20, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4065240)
Jim Bouton:

Vancouver (PCL): 7 games 10.0 IP, 2 R, 1 ER, ERA 0.90, WHIP 1.10 but 7 BB to 4 hits.

Seattle (AL): 57 games, 92.0 IP, ERA+ 93, batting .000/.000/.000 in 9 PA, WAR 0.0

Houston (NL): 16 games, 30.2 IP (includes one start, a complete game), ERA+ 87, .000/.000/.000 in 4 PA, WAR 0.2

And tell your statistics to shut up.
   83. Al Peterson Posted: February 21, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4065443)
1969 Prelim. Not much different from others but will post to the ballot thread tomorrow.

1. Reggie Jackson, RF
2. Bob Gibson, P
3. Willie McCovey, 1B
4. Rico Petrocelli, SS
5. Henry Aaron, RF   
6. Jimmy Wynn, CF
7. Sal Bando, 3B
8. Larry Dierker, P
9. Frank Robinson, RF
10. Juan Marichal, P
11. Harmon Killebrew, 3B
12. Denny McLain, P

13. Pete Rose, RF
14. Frank Howard, LF
15. Tom Seaver, P
16. Bill Hands, P
17. Roberto Clemente, RF
18. Phil Niekro, P
19. Johnny Bench, C
20. Fergie Jenkins, P
   84. Mike Emeigh Posted: February 21, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4065712)
Jim Bouton:

Vancouver (PCL): 7 games 10.0 IP, 2 R, 1 ER, ERA 0.90, WHIP 1.10 but 7 BB to 4 hits.

Seattle (AL): 57 games, 92.0 IP, ERA+ 93, batting .000/.000/.000 in 9 PA, WAR 0.0

Houston (NL): 16 games, 30.2 IP (includes one start, a complete game), ERA+ 87, .000/.000/.000 in 4 PA, WAR 0.2

That one start was a 10-inning complete game, no less, and the deciding runs scored with two outs in the 10th after Matty Alou reached base on a third-strike passed ball to start the inning.

Bouton made only 10 appearances all year where the average LI was 1.5 or greater, and 25 appearances where his team was trailing by more than three runs.

-- MWE
   85. just plain joe Posted: February 21, 2012 at 06:51 PM (#4065803)
My first reaction to the story of Carew and the military reserve commitment was that I didn't know that Carew was a U.S. citizen. Turns out that he was born in the Canal Zone - would that have made him a U.S. citizen at birth? And he went to high school in New York City.

I don't know about Carew's citizenship but in the past lack of U.S. citizenship was never a drawback to serving in the military (this may have changed in recent years). When I was in the Air Force in the mid-seventies I served with several people who were non-citizens; apparently the only requirement then was that you be willing to swear an oath to defend and protect the constitution of the United States. I remember working with one young woman from the Phillipines who could barely speak English but apparently she could read and write it well enough to do her job. I suspect that an honorable discharge would have been looked upon favorably in the naturalization process, I'm sure it couldn't hurt.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.



<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF


Thanks to
Don Malcolm
for his generous support.


You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Most Meritorious Player: 1902 Discussion
(36 - 10:05pm, Feb 26)
Last: TomH

2016 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(83 - 1:38pm, Feb 26)
Last: snowleopard

Most Meritorious Player: 1902 Ballot
(6 - 4:22am, Feb 25)
Last: bjhanke

Larry Doyle
(66 - 10:20am, Feb 20)
Last: Kiko Sakata

Jason Kendall
(23 - 9:13am, Feb 18)
Last: Bourbon Samurai

Troy Glaus and Garret Anderson
(13 - 10:27am, Feb 07)
Last: Ziggy

Most Meritorious Player: 1901 Results
(3 - 1:00pm, Feb 06)
Last: Chris Fluit

Most Meritorious Player: 1901 Ballot
(21 - 12:01pm, Feb 05)
Last: DL from MN

The Baseball Hall of Merit Plaque Room: Home Page
(1465 - 1:08pm, Feb 03)
Last: HGM

Vic Power
(8 - 3:51pm, Feb 02)
Last: The District Attorney

Ken Griffey Jr.
(49 - 8:40am, Feb 02)
Last: thok

Manny Ramirez
(15 - 7:31pm, Jan 28)
Last: theboyqueen

Toby Harrah
(15 - 2:32am, Jan 28)
Last: Ardo

Tommy John
(17 - 2:20am, Jan 28)
Last: Ardo

Wally Schang
(12 - 1:40am, Jan 28)
Last: Ardo


Page rendered in 0.7232 seconds
43 querie(s) executed