Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, July 24, 2012

Most Meritorious Player: 1975 Discussion

1975 is remembered for a tremendous rookie season by Fred Lynn. The Big Red Machine wins a memorable World Series over the Red Sox. Other playoff teams were Oakland and Pittsburgh.

Voting will end on August 29th 2012.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Morgan, Joe		43.7		10.8
Lynn, Fred		33.3		7.1
Mayberry, John		32.3		6.9
Singleton, Ken		31.6		4.9
Bench, Johnny		30.1		6.4
Harrah, Toby		31.2		6.8
Carew, Rod		30.0		7.5
Grich, Bobby		28.3		7.0
Schmidt, Mike		27.3		7.4
Jackson, Reggie		27.1		6.3
Rose, Pete		30.5		4.1
Luzinski, Greg		27.8		3.0
Tenace, Gene		29.6		4.9
Simmons, Ted		27.9		4.7
Evans, Darrell		26.4		2.9
Cey, Ron		26.3		6.5
Madlock, Bill		25.5		4.7
Brett, George		25.3		5.6
Parker, Dave		25.2		6.1
Cardenal, Jose		25.8		2.9
North, Bill		22.0		5.5
Staub, Rusty		24.9		2.7
Munson, Thurman		24.2		6.3
Garvey, Steve		24.5		4.9
Bonds, Bobby		24.0		4.8
Washington, Claudell	22.8		4.6
Belanger, Mark		13.1		4.8
Speier, Chris		19.9		4.0

Pitcher 		SH WS		BBR WAR
Palmer, Jim		31.5		8.1
Hunter, Catfish		28.7		7.7
Jones, Randy		28.2		7.4
Messersmith, Andy	28.0		6.5
Seaver, Tom		25.4		7.9
Gossage, Rich		23.1		8.1
Kaat, Jim 		22.7		7.7
Tanana, Frank		21.9		7.1
Busby, Steve		21.5		5.8
Blyleven, Bert		21.2		5.7
Niekro, Phil		21.0		6.3
Perry, Gaylord		20.8		5.4
Forsch, Bob		19.4		6.4
DL from MN Posted: July 24, 2012 at 10:58 AM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. DL from MN Posted: July 24, 2012 at 11:05 AM (#4190736)
The writers didn't do too bad of a job this year. Morgan/Lynn, Palmer/Seaver
   2. Chris Fluit Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4191069)
I was a hold-out on Joe Morgan for the last two elections (I voted for third basemen Darrell Evans and Mike Schmidt instead) but there's no question he'll be first on my ballot this time around. 1st in OPS+ and Runs Created by large margins while playing excellent defense at a demanding position. Right now, the gap between Morgan at #1 and the #2 player looks to be about as big as the gap between the #2 and the #7.

   3. Chris Fluit Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4191087)
Here's my prelim for 1975

1. Joe Morgan, 2B, Cincinnati Reds: leads MLB in OPS+ with 169 and in RC with 145. +14 in fielding runs. Huge gap between Morgan and everybody else.

2. Jim Palmer, P, Baltimore Orioles: leads MLB in ERA+ with 169 while also throwing 323 innings (which is 2nd to Hunter). Another huge gap between Palmer and the rest.

3. John Mayberry, 1B, Kansas City Royals: the best position player in the AL. I surprised myself with this result but Mayberry had one of the best defensive seasons of his career (+7) while leading the league in both OPS+ and RC.

4. Andy Messersmith, P, Los Angeles Dodgers: the best pitcher in the NL. 2nd in the league in ERA+ but first in innings by a wide margin.

5. Rod Carew, 2B, Minnesota Twins. 3rd in OPS+ and in RC. Above average defense (+4) at second.

6. Catfish Hunter, P, Oakland Athletics. 144 ERA+ in 328 innings. There's not a lot separating Mayberry at #3 from Hunter at #6.

7. Johnny Bench, C, Cincinnati Reds. Another outstanding year for Johnny, second only to his teammate Joe among NL position players. 140 OPS+ and +10 fielding runs from behind the plate.

8. Fred Lynn, CF, Boston Red Sox. Surprised he ranked this low. I would have guessed that Mayberry and Lynn would have been reversed before I ran the numbers. I can see how narrative (rookie of the year tears up the league) or postseason credit would push him ahead. But with a lower positional bonus than Carew and smaller offensive numbers than Mayberry, Lynn lands third among everyday AL players and 8th overall. Lynn's the only outfielder in my top 20 (Dave Parker is next at 24).

9. Randy Jones, P, San Diego Padres. An interesting counterpart to Messersmith, 1st in ERA+ and 2nd in innings. Normally, the rate stat would win out but Messersmith's advantage in innings is pretty big.

10. Rich Gossage, RP, Chicago White Sox. I feel like I'm underrating Gossage at 10. But I also know that I'm generally more generous with relievers than the average voter.

11. Ted Simmons, C, St. Louis Cardinals. It's a very good year for catchers.

12. Toby Harrah, SS, Texas Rangers. Narrowly beats Schmidt for the last ballot spot based on playing the more demanding defensive position (though not quite as well as one might like).

13. Mike Schmidt, 3B, Philadelphia Phillies.
14. Tom Seaver, P, New York Mets.
15. Al Hrabosky, RP, St. Louis Cardinals.
16. Jim Kaat, P, Minnesota Twins.
17. Thurman Munson, C, New York Yankees.
18. Ron Cey, 3B, Los Angeles Dodgers.
19. Gene Tenace, C, Oakland Athletics. The fourth catcher in my top 20. A fifth, Manny Sanguillen, just misses at 21.
20. Bobby Grich, 2B, Baltimore Orioles. Could have gone with Gaylord Perry, Sanguillen or Grich for this last spot. My gut (and homer bias) told me to go with Grich.
   4. OCF Posted: July 24, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4191152)
The usual RA+ equivalent pitching analysis. League runs per game were back to what they had been in 1973: 4.13 in the NL, 4.32 in the AL. AL managers continued to use the fact that they didn't have to pinch hit for pitcher to enable prodigious inning loads for some pitchers. Virtual 20 game winners were still commonplace. And free agency arrived with a splash, with Catfish Hunter jumping to the Yankes and having a great year for them. (But what does this have to do with Frank Tanana?)

NL:
Tom Seaver 21-10 (OK hitter)
Randy Jones 20-12
John Montefusco 17-10 (bad hitter)
Carl Morton 19-14
Jim Barr 16-11 (bad hitter)
Bob Forsch 15-10 (great hitter)
Phil Niekro 17-13
Al Hrabosky 8-3 (12-5 with inherited runner adjustment)
AL:
Jim Palmer 25-11
Catfish Hunter 24-13
Frank Tanana 19-10
Bert Blyleven 19-12
Jim Kaat 20-14
Steve Busby 18-11
Gaylord Perry 19-15
Rich Gossage 12-3 (19-6 with inherited runner adjustment)

Forsch batted .308/.341/.462 in 88 PA. On top of him being merely a good pitcher, that certainly doesn't make him Seaver. But he's worth looking at anyway.

Any other relief pitchers I should run through this system?

   5. OCF Posted: July 24, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4191158)
What was the greatest single season of the pre-closer era of relief pitching? We're in the middle of a run of candidate years. At the moment, I would rank Hiller's 1973 slightly ahead of Gossage's 1975. One of the distinctions: Gossage in '75 was very good against inherited runners at 27/99, but Hiller in '73 was out of this world against inherited runners at 13/84.
   6. OCF Posted: July 24, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4191190)
Correction/addition to post 4:

Andy Messersmith 24-12

Appears to be ahead of Seaver by this measure.
   7. Chris Fluit Posted: July 24, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4191192)
We're in the middle of a run of candidate years.


I was thinking the same thing. We had sporadic support for relievers throughout the '60s but it's been pretty consistent in the '70s with McGraw, Marshall, Hiller and now Gossage likely receiving support.

I agree with you that I'd take Hiller's '73 as the best so far. The vote at the time bears that out with Hiller finishing 6th overall (no other reliever has cracked the top ten). Hiller had a 283 ERA+ (1.44 actual) in 125 innings. That beats Gossage's 212 (1.84 actual) in 141.

However, after an off-year in '76, we get a couple of great seasons in '77 from Gossage again and Sutter. Gossage's '77 is a 244 ERA+ in 133 innings (1.62 ERA). Sutter was 328 (1.34 actual) in 107.

I think I prefer Sutter's '77 to Hiller's '73, though BB-ref disagrees (they see Sutter as worth 6.5 WAR in '77, Hiller worth 7.9 in '73 and Gossage with 8.1 in '75).
   8. toratoratora Posted: July 25, 2012 at 05:13 AM (#4191593)
Billboard Top ten singles 1975
1 Captain and Tennille Love Will Keep Us Together
2 Glen Campbell Rhinestone Cowboy
3 Elton John Philadelphia Freedom
4 Freddy Fender Before The Next Teardrop Falls
5 Frankie Valli My Eyes Adored You
6 Earth, Wind and Fire Shining Star
7 David Bowie Fame
8 Neil Sedaka Laughter In The Rain
9 Eagles One Of These Nights
10John Denver Thank God I'm A Country Boy

(Kung Foo fighting gets an honorable mention at #14)
   9. DanG Posted: July 26, 2012 at 03:01 AM (#4192460)
Any other relief pitchers I should run through this system?
Not really.

Rk           Player WAR ERASV    WPA  WHIP GF GS    IP Age  Tm Lg  G  W L  ERA OPS+
1      Rich Gossage 8.1  212 26  6.980 1.193 49  0 141.2  23 CHW AL 62  9 8 1.84   56
2       Al Hrabosky 3.8  228 22  4.599 1.079 41  0  97.1  25 STL NL 65 13 3 1.66   55
3       Bob Apodaca 3.0  233 13  1.972 1.110 36  0  84.2  25 NYM NL 46  3 4 1.49   70
4       John Hiller 2.9  185 14  1.258 1.245 34  0  70.2  32 DET AL 36  2 3 2.17   70
5      Dave LaRoche 2.3  172 17  3.276 1.433 41  0  82.1  27 CLE AL 61  5 3 2.19   81
6     Dave Hamilton 2.2  118  6  0.873 1.443 27  5 105.1  27 TOT AL 41  7 7 3.25   99
7    Rollie Fingers 2.1  122 24  3.675 1.011 59  0 126.2  28 OAK AL 75 10 6 2.98   76
8          Jim Todd 2.0  160 12  2.374 1.123 31  0 122.0  27 OAK AL 58  8 3 2.29   65
9      Gary Lavelle 2.0  130  8 
-0.497 1.555 29  0  82.1  26 SFG NL 65  6 3 2.95   94
10    Dave Heaverlo 1.8  161  1 
-0.300 1.453 23  0  64.0  24 SFG NL 42  3 1 2.39   96
11   Rawly Eastwick 1.7  139 22  2.979 1.133 40  0  90.0  24 CIN NL 58  5 3 2.60   70
12   Danny Frisella 1.6  112  9  0.198 1.403 39  0  97.2  29 SDP NL 65  1 6 3.13  101
13    Paul Lindblad 1.6  134  7  2.866 1.210 20  0 122.1  33 OAK AL 68  9 1 2.72   81
14        Doug Bird 1.6  119 11  0.061 1.329 36  4 105.1  25 KCR AL 51  9 6 3.25   99
15       Tom Buskey 1.6  147  7  0.347 1.273 34  0  77.0  28 CLE AL 50  5 3 2.57   92 
   10. DanG Posted: July 26, 2012 at 03:11 AM (#4192462)
What was the greatest single season of the pre-closer era of relief pitching?
Most WAR for RP in a season. In the past 25 years, the best is 2006 Papelbon with 4.9 WAR.

Rk            Player WAR ERASV   WPA  WHIP GF GS    IP Year Age  Tm Lg  G  W  L  ERA   BA OPS+
1       Rich Gossage 8.1  212 26 6.980 1.193 49  0 141.2 1975  23 CHW AL 62  9  8 1.84 .201   56
2        John Hiller 7.9  283 38 8.410 1.021 60  0 125.1 1973  30 DET AL 65 10  5 1.44 .198   48
3      Mark Eichhorn 7.1  246 10 4.970 0.955 38  0 157.0 1986  25 TOR AL 69 14  6 1.72 .192   47
4       Bruce Sutter 6.5  328 31 5.149 0.857 48  0 107.1 1977  24 CHC NL 62  7  3 1.34 .183   31
5      Ted Abernathy 6.1  299 28 4.776 0.978 61  0 106.1 1967  34 CIN NL 70  6  3 1.27 .170   32
6           Jim Kern 6.0  264 29 4.738 1.126 57  0 143.0 1979  30 TEX AL 71 13  5 1.57 .198   49
7        Dick Radatz 6.0  170 29 3.732 1.025 67  0 157.0 1964  27 BOS AL 79 16  9 2.29 .186   62
8       Rich Gossage 5.9  244 26 5.895 0.955 55  0 133.0 1977  25 PIT NL 72 11  9 1.62 .170   38
9     Lindy McDaniel 5.8  195 26 5.690 0.937 47  2 116.1 1960  24 STL NL 65 12  4 2.09 .208   50
10      Doug Corbett 5.6  221 23 7.848 1.056 63  0 136.1 1980  27 MIN AL 73  8  6 1.98 .213   52
11       Dick Radatz 5.6  192 25 6.243 1.096 58  0 132.1 1963  26 BOS AL 66 15  6 1.97 .201   62
12         Sid Monge 5.5  178 19 4.039 1.221 53  0 131.0 1979  28 CLE AL 76 12 10 2.40 .209   67
13   Dan Quisenberry 5.4  210 45 4.388 0.928 62  0 139.0 1983  30 KCR AL 69  5  3 1.94 .229   52
14       Dick Radatz 5.4  185 24 2.870 1.083 53  0 124.2 1962  25 BOS AL 62  9  6 2.24 .211   68
15       Greg Minton 5.3  196 30 5.229 1.220 66  0 123.0 1982  30 SFG NL 78 10  4 1.83 .244   81 
   11. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: July 26, 2012 at 03:43 AM (#4192464)
Was it Smokey Joe Wood that said, of all the players he'd seen between Tris Speaker and Rickey Henderson, that Seventies Fred Lynn was the very best?
"Don't think much of him now" (mid-80's?), "but for a while there he was the best." Something like that.
   12. SOLockwood Posted: July 26, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4192588)
Wood was so quoted in one of Roger Angell's books.
   13. Mr. C Posted: July 28, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4194585)
1975 preliminary

1. Joe Morgan 9.85 WARR No on close to Morgan this year
2. Goose Gossage 7.55 WARR A great season as a reliever, but did so in front of a poor defense in a hitter's park
3. Tom Seaver 7.25 WARR
4. Mike Schmidt 7.20 WARR Excellent hitting; great fielding
5. Jim Kaat 7.05 WARR In the "battle" of the three Jim's, Kaat is certainly third best when you look at only the raw numbers. However, he pitched in front of one of the poorest fielding teams in a hitter's park; whereas Hunter and Palmer both pitched in front of one of the top three fielding teams in the AL in a pitcher's park.
6. Catfish Hunter 6.7 WARR Hunter and Palmer are basically the same. Will have to do some more thinking before the final ballot.
7. Jim Palmer 6.7 WARR
8. Randy Jones 6.65 WARR
9. Rod Carew 6.5 WARR
10. Bobby Grich 6.4 WARR
11. Toby Harrah 6.4 WARR
12. John Mayberry 6.35 WARR

The rest of the top 20
Bob Forsch
Fred Lynn
Frank Tanana
John Montefusco
Johnny Bench
Dave Parker
Ron Cey
Reggie Jackson

   14. Mr. C Posted: July 28, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4194634)
My comment about the three Jim's should say that Kaat is certainly the "third" best when you look at only the raw numbers.
   15. bjhanke Posted: July 29, 2012 at 02:25 AM (#4195014)
Hi. It's Brock Hanke. I know this is awfully early, but I need to post up my 1975 final ballot now. Convention season is about to start for me, and it consumes almost all my time in August, so I sincerely doubt I'll have any time to improve on this before the voting deadline. So please just copy this one over to the ballot thread when that one comes up.

This wasn't an easy ballot. I try to use, as a starting point, whatever consensus emerges from the discussion thread headers, listing Win Shares and WAR for the leading candidates. This year, consensus was nigh-impossible. WAR has several pitchers (Gossage, Seaver, Kaat, Tanana) ranked quite highly who Win Shares doesn't think are in the top twenty. On the other hand, Win Shares has Singleton, Rose, and Tenace all in the top ten, while WAR doesn't have them in the top twenty.

The tipping point for me was Pete Rose. I despised him as a player, calling him Charlie Hotdog, so if I have a bias, it would be against Rose. But I was forced to admit to myself that I agreed much more with Win Shares' placement of him as the #7 player for the year than I did WAR's placement of him at 36th (so low that I need to add that these rankings are only among players in the discussion thread header). I ended up ranking him above 12th only because he did play very very well in both rounds of the postseason, winning a deserved World Series MVP (if the Bosox had won, the MVP would have likely been Tiant).

Joe Morgan and John Mayberry also got extra credit for dominating their positions. Morgan hardly needs it; this may be the very best season we have voted upon so far in this entire project. Mayberry got moved up a couple of places because of the domination.

The highest-ranking player by WAR who did not get my vote was Jim Kaat (#6 in WAR, #32 in WS). The highest-ranking Win Shares player who did not get a vote from me was Gene Tenace (#10 WS, #29 WAR). THAT is lack of consensus.

Anyway, without further ado, here's my list. If I don't correct it before the voting deadline, please consider it to be my final ballot. As I said, I have no idea whether I would find time to post up later at any time that I could be sure I would remember to do that, so here it is now:

1. Joe Morgan
2. Fred Lynn
3. Rod Carew
4. Jim Palmer
5. John Mayberry
6. Toby Harrah
7. Catfish Hunter
8. Tom Seaver
9. Ken Singleton
10. Charlie Hotdog
11. Johnny Bench
12. Goose Gossage
   16. Kiko Sakata Posted: July 30, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4195733)
Here's my preliminary ballot. I have created my own set of Player won-lost records. I calculate these records two ways: tied to team records and context neutral. I look at both sets of records, with a bit of a bias toward the records tied to team records (what I call pWins). I look at players relative to both average (what I call WOPA) and replacement level (WORL). I also give bonus points to players for being the best player in the majors at their position.

Here are top 25 lists for the 1975 major leagues. These numbers include postseason games - weighting postseason games the same as regular-season games: pWins, eWins.

Numbers shown below are pWins - pLosses, pWOPA, pWORL

1. Joe Morgan, 25.5 - 15.1, 5.3, 7.2 - Morgan in #1 on my ballot for the third year in a row. I'll repeat my comment from 1973: "best player in MLB no matter how I measure it".
2. Jim Palmer, 20.3 - 12.4, 4.1, 5.6 - best pitcher in MLB by any of the measures I looked at.
3. Toby Harrah, 21.0 - 16.3, 3.2, 5.0 - best SS in MLB, #2 in context-neutral wins above both average and replacement level.
4. Tom Seaver, 19.2 - 13.6, 3.5, 5.1 - a bit better than Harrah in pWOPA/pWORL, a bit below in eWOPA/eWORL. There's not a lot of separation between spots 2 - 4 on my ballot here, especially 3 & 4. I might flip Seaver and Harrah in my final ballot.
5. Fred Lynn, 23.6 - 17.5, 2.8, 4.8 - pretty decent choice for AL MVP, even though I'd have him 3rd on my (AL-only) ballot.
6. Randy Jones, 18.2 - 13.6, 3.0, 4.5
7. Catfish Hunter, 19.5 - 14.4, 2.7, 4.3 - Hunter's a bit better than Jones in eWOPA/eWORL; Jones is better in pWOPA/pWORL.
8. Mike Schmidt, 20.6 - 16.8, 1.7, 3.4 - best 3B in MLB; top 5 player in eWOPA/eWORL; fares quite a bit worse when his record is tied to his team's record. For some reason, he was particularly un-"clutch" in 1975 (overall OPS of .890, OPS w/ runners on of .826, OPS in "late and close" of .771). This was fairly unusual for Schmidt's career in general, but it really happened, so he slides down a couple of slots on my ballot for now. I might push him ahead of Jones and Hunter for my final ballot, though.
9. Reggie Jackson, 26.1 - 19.5, 2.8, 5.0 - best corner outfielder in the majors.
10. John Mayberry, 19.9 - 14.0, 2.3, 3.9 - best 1B in the majors.
11. Johnny Bench, 19.4 - 14.8, 2.2, 3.9 - best C in the majors.

I'm not entirely sure who I'm going to put in the last ballot slot. The candidates include the following (roughly in the order I'm considering them).

Goose Gossage, 12.6 - 7.1, 2.5, 3.7 - best RP in the majors. He's just off-ballot even in his best stat (13th in MLB in pWOPA). I'm leaning toward putting him in the last ballot slot based on the "best XX in the majors" standard and because he seems to score higher in other stats (e.g., WAR).
Bobby Grich, 19.5 - 15.8, 2.4, 4.1
Rod Carew, 18.5 - 15.7, 1.7, 3.3 - Carew/Grich would be best 2B in MLB if not for that Morgan fellow. Grich beats Carew in pWOPA/pWORL; Carew beats Grich in eWOPA/eWORL
Thurman Munson, 20.2 - 15.3, 2.7, 4.4 - top 10 in pWOPA/pWORL, well off-ballot (not top 25) in eWOPA/eWORL has him off-ballot for now; sort of the opposite of Schmidt.
Ron Cey, 23.0 - 17.0, 2.7, 4.6 - same story as Munson, top 10 in pWOPA/pWORL, off-ballot (~25th) in eWOPA/eWORL - I listed Munson ahead of Cey here because he's a catcher.
Andy Messersmith, 20.1 - 18.0, 1.9, 3.7 - reverse of Munson/Cey, top 10 in eWOPA/eWORL, outside top 20 in pWOPA/pWORL
Pete Rose, 22.9 - 17.5, 2.3, 4.2 - deserves a ballot slot based on pWOPA/pWORL (7th in the majors in pWORL, in fact); not based on eWOPA/eWORL.
John Montefusco, 16.9 - 12.8, 2.6, 4.1 - I first became a really big baseball fan just after this (around 1977); I love when guys show up in my consideration set who I only vaguely remember as being fairly mediocre players (Chris Speier a few years ago, Jim Rooker for me last year, now "the Count").
   17. DL from MN Posted: July 30, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4195907)
1975 prelim (no postseason credit yet)

1) Joe Morgan - he blows everyone away this year
2) Rod Carew
3) Toby Harrah
4) Johnny Bench
5) Jim Palmer - pitchers don't score that well in 1975 for Dan R
6) Gene Tenace - standard C bonus, will have to see if he deserves a full C bonus or not
7) Bobby Grich
8) Tom Seaver
9) Frank Tanana
10) Mike Schmidt
11) Randy Jones
12) Catfish Hunter
13-15) Ron Cey, Goose Gossage, Andy Messersmith
16-20) Ken Singleton, Jim Kaat, Thurman Munson, Fred Lynn, John Mayberry
21-23) Steve Busby, Darrell Evans, Phil Niekro

Dan R's numbers on Fred Lynn BWAA2 4.1, BRWAA2 -0.1, FWAA 0.5, Rep2 -1.6 WARP2 6.1 - top CF in the league but apparently CF replacement level was really high, not much different than corner OF. Examples of replacement CF in 1975 - Paul Blair, Cito Gaston, Mickey Stanley, Alan Bannister
   18. sunnyday2 Posted: July 30, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4196471)
Fred Lynn not in the top 20 gives sabremetrics a bad name. You wouldn't rate them thusly if you had seen him at the time. No question this year: Morgan, then Lynn, then everybody else.

Thank god for Philadelphia Freedom and One of These Nights. Otherwise it was the revenge of the nerds in terms of the billboard charts anyway. But one of the greatest records of all time came out: One Size Fits All by FZ. So all else is forgiven.
   19. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 31, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4197537)
Otherwise it was the revenge of the nerds in terms of the billboard charts anyway. But one of the greatest records of all time came out: One Size Fits All by FZ. So all else is forgiven.
One of my top 5 all-time records hit #1 on the Billboard 200.
   20. AndrewJ Posted: July 31, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4197645)
Fred Lynn was a huge story in 1975. That he chose MLB over the NFL (he'd played for John McKay at USC) was a feather in baseball's cap at a time when football was dominant.

Was it Smokey Joe Wood that said, of all the players he'd seen between Tris Speaker and Rickey Henderson, that Seventies Fred Lynn was the very best?
"Don't think much of him now" (mid-80's?), "but for a while there he was the best." Something like that.


Wood was so quoted in one of Roger Angell's books.

Actually, it's from Bill James' first Historical Abstract, and it was said by an anonymous elderly fan at Fenway in the early 1980s.


   21. Sunday silence Posted: July 31, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4197653)
I think you guys are underrating speed/alertness on the basepaths. Would probably put Lynn ahead of Mayberry on most of these tickets. Also Geo. Brett is excellent by this same measure and is almost certainly underrated on the WAR scale. I am unclear as to how exactly WAR converts runs to wins, so I hesistate to say by how much at this pt. Claudell washington w/ adequate credit given to speed might be on the same ranking as Brett.

Speaking of Dylan would be worth getting tickets for his fall tour? I went to see him at WOlftrap maybe 15 years ago and he was barely understandable. Is his voice listenable at this pt?

Also for Brock. I appreciate your historical take on the game, but why were so down on Rose? Why did you think his running full out stuff was an act? (which you mentioned in another thread). It seemed to me it set a good example and is also the kind of thing that would keep a player focused on his own game. I dont really see a down side but you have a different take and I'd like to hear more about it. .
   22. just plain joe Posted: July 31, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4197742)
Speaking of Dylan would be worth getting tickets for his fall tour? I went to see him at WOlftrap maybe 15 years ago and he was barely understandable. Is his voice listenable at this pt?


If you're a fan I would definitely go; I mean who knows how long he is going to keep performing. I saw Dylan a few years ago for the first time since the mid-seventies and, while his voice was "worse", it never was a great voice to start with. The chance to see an actual legend perform doesn't come around very often.
   23. Sunday silence Posted: August 01, 2012 at 12:24 AM (#4197771)
But was his voice recognizable? I guess I'd go if he sounds at least something like the guy we remember. What's clouding it is that I vowed not to pay to see him again because the first time was in the 70s; we saw him in Pittsburgh when he was doing the Saved tour. Which we didnt know he was going the born again rout for that entire show (we were kids) and so felt kinda gypped. I think he did everything from that album and nothing classic, it was probably pretty good if you liked that music which I think recieved critical praise. Perhaps I caught him on a bad night in the 90s? But if is like that, then I dont want any part of him.
   24. bjhanke Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:19 AM (#4197825)
Sunday -

Basically, I thought that what Pete Rose was doing was not really of any help to his team in winning ballgames, but was an enormous help to Pete Rose in getting on TV, and I don't think much of that. It looked like hot dogging taken to the absolute limit. I was aware that this might just be my bias, and maybe Pete really was getting some team value out of running out walks and running to the on-base circle, etc. So I focused, for a few games on TV and here in STL on which way he turned when running out a walk. He never turned left, nor looked back to see if he should turn left. He only turned right. Well, the only real help that running out walks provides to a team's winning ballgames is when, which probably happens about once a decade to a batter, ball 4 is a wild pitch and you might be able to take second. But, to do that, you have to turn left at 1B, not right. When Pete didn't even make an effort to see whether he could take second, I felt confirmed in thinking that what he did was shameless self-promotion at the level of REGGIE!, except that Rose had found a way to hotdog that the fans liked to watch. Good salesman. Not helping his team win ballgames. So I tend to think of Rose the same way I think of The Wave. A damned nuisance when you're trying to watch a ballgame. That's very harsh, but Pete's personality after his playing career does kind of shore up the idea that he's an attention hog.

Another part of it was what the media's take was on it. Everyone was quick to say that this was the way ballplayers SHOULD play ballgames. Well, that's true, if you want to run yourself out of gas by late August. Rose got away with it because of the same thing that allowed him to pile up career records: He had the constitution of a horse. He could run and run all day, play every day, and almost never get hurt, and I don't think was ever hurt in any way that diminished his skills for the rest of his career. I don't want to underrate that. Rose did have a fantastic constitution; he's a true outlier in that regard. If he hadn't had that, he would never have been able to catch Ty Cobb, because he'd have had to play until he was 50 to pay off the stays on the DL that shorten everyone else's careers. But he almost never went on the DL. That was his real superstar skill, not running everywhere as if he were trying to escape from the stadium. - Brock
   25. Sunday silence Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:47 AM (#4197826)
thanks for sharing.
   26. just plain joe Posted: August 01, 2012 at 08:28 AM (#4197845)
thanks for sharing.


No problem. I saw Dylan at an indoor venue, which likely makes a difference in the sound quality. I can remember attending outdoor concerts at which the sound quality, especially the vocals, were virtually unintelligible. The Dylan concert I saw back in the seventies was part of his tour with The Band, so it pre-dated the whole saved thing; at the one I saw a few years ago he played a good mixture of his classic "hits" and more recents songs. As always, YMMV.
   27. TomH Posted: August 01, 2012 at 09:30 AM (#4197892)
Big Red Machine, 1975, Pete Rose's value.
In 74, the Reds won 98 games; too bad LA won 102. Cinci had a great offense, good pitching+def.
Third base was a revolving door. Driessen could hit but not field. Bench started 30 (!) games there. Others played some 3B too.
George Foster was tryinig to break into an OF of Rose/Geronimo/Griffey.
In 75, they became The Machine. They scored so many runs it was silly. Why? Because Foster played eveyr day, and Driessen became the valuable sub at many spots. How did they do this? Rose moved to third base, at not a young age, a position he had not played before.

So who should get the credit for creating a way for the team to succeed?
   28. DL from MN Posted: August 01, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4197899)
who should get the credit for creating a way for the team to succeed?


Sparky Anderson
   29. DL from MN Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4198391)
Survey of postseason credit
NLCS

Player G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS 
Bench 3  13  1  1  0  0  0  0  1  6  .077  .143  .077  .220     1  0
Concepcion 3  11  2  5  0  0  1  1  1  2  .455  .500  .727  1.227  2  0  
Foster 3  11  3  4  0  0  0  0  1  2  .364  .417  .364  .780  1  0
Morgan 3  11  2  3  3  0  0  1  2  2  .273  .429  .545  .974  4  0
Rose 3  14  3  5  0  0  1  2  0  2  .357  .357  .571  .929  0  0  

Parker 3  10  2  0  0  0  0  0  1  3  .000  .167  .000  .167  0  0  
Sanguillen 3  12  0  2  0  0  0  0  0  0  .167  .167  .167  .333  0  0
Stennett 3  14  0  3  0  0  0  0  0  1  .214  .214  .214  .429  

Pitcher G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Reuss 1  1  13.50  0  1  0  0  2.2  4  4  4  1  3.000



Nobody from Pittsburgh is getting postseason credit...
   30. DL from MN Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4198395)
Survey of postseason credit
ALCS

Player G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS 
Lynn 3  11  1  4  1  0  0  3  0  0  .364  .364  .455  .818  0  0

Reggie 3  12  1  5  0  0  1  3  0  2  .417  .417  .667  1.083 0  0
Tenace 3  9  0  0  0  0  0  0  3  2  .000  .250  .000  .250  0  0

   31. DL from MN Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4198397)
Survey of postseason credit
WS

Player G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS 
Bench 7  29  5  6  2  0  1  4  2  4  .207  .258  .379  .637  0  0
Concepcion 7  28  3  5  1  0  1  4  0  1  .179  .200  .321  .521  3  0
Foster 7  29  1  8  1  0  0  2  1  1  .276  .300  .310  .610    1  1
Morgan 7  27  4  7  1  0  0  3  5  1  .259  .364  .296  .660  2  1
PRose 7  27  3  10  1  1  0  2  5  1  .370  .485  .481  .966  0  0
   32. DL from MN Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4198400)
Looking over Fred Lynn the only knock against him I can see is he only played 145 games. I can't justify Ken Singleton over Lynn, especially when you figure in the hot postseason. Was Lynn hurt or did his manager take a while to warm up to him?
   33. DL from MN Posted: August 01, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4198409)
On the postseason - Rose deserves some recognition but it isn't enough to get him on my ballot. Morgan doesn't need any more help at the top. Nobody else on my prelim really gets a boost other than Lynn and it's only enough to move him to 15th.
   34. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 01, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4198457)
Rose deserves some recognition but it isn't enough to get him on my ballot.


Between the postseason and the positional flexibility argument laid out in #27, I think I'm leaning toward giving Rose my last ballot slot.
   35. Chris Fluit Posted: August 02, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4198838)
I think you guys are underrating speed/alertness on the basepaths. Would probably put Lynn ahead of Mayberry on most of these tickets.


I took a look at baserunning numbers for Lynn and Mayberry. Lynn is better than Mayberry over the course of his career but neither player added much value on the basepaths in 1975. Lynn had 10 stolen bases and 5 caught stealing which is about the break even point. Mayberry had 5 stolen bases and 3 caught stealing which is a similar percentage in half the number of attempts (he'd have to be 5 and 2.5 to be completely even). Lynn was more likely to take an extra base as a runner, 47 to 38%, but he was also more likely to run into an out, 12 to 9. For 1975, BB-ref has Lynn as -2 baserunning and Mayberry as -1.


   36. DanG Posted: August 02, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4198882)
Was Lynn hurt or did his manager take a while to warm up to him?
Part of this was the Red Sox played only 160 games; two rainouts were never made up. Actually, it took less than a week for Lynn to get going. After going 0-4 in the season's first two games he was benched for two games. Then he started hitting and played every Boston inning for the next 3+ weeks.

Lynn started 140 games in 1975. Only Burleson and Yaz started more games in the field for the Bosox. While Lynn never missed an extended period in 1975, with his all-out style of play he was always nursing some minor ache. With two other young CF on the team (Rick Miller and Juan Beniquez) it was easy to give Freddie a day off when necessary.

His longest inactive streak began on July 4, when Lynn was replaced after five innings in a 1-1 tie game. Then he did not start in
Boston's next five games, although he did play in two of those as a PR/CF and a PH. Lynn was also rested four times in September when the division race was well in hand.
   37. DL from MN Posted: August 02, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4198905)
Lynn was also rested four times in September when the division race was well in hand.


Based on that nugget it would be difficult to argue NOT giving him postseason credit. They gave him 4 days off so he could play 3 games in October.
   38. sunnyday2 Posted: August 03, 2012 at 07:12 AM (#4199507)
Prelim

1. Joe Morgan 44 WS 12 WART 168 OPS+
2. Fred Lynn 33 WS
3. John Mayberry 33 WS 167 OPS+ A surprise to me, I did not remember Big John ever being this good
4. Greg Luzinski 152 OPS+ I do remember Luzinski being this good
5. Jim Palmer 168 ERA+

6. Reggie Jackson 6.5 WAR
7. Ken Singleton 33 WS We had no idea at the time that he was this good
8. Randy Jones 7.7 WAR One hit wonder
9. Johnny Bench 30 WS
10. Rod Carew 8.2 WAR

11. Jim Rice A buddy of mine told me in 1975 that Rice would have a better career than Lynn, seemed like a radical idea at the time
12. Pete Rose The hits just keep on comin'
13. Andy Messersmith 149 ERA+
14. Ted Simmons 28 WS
15. Dave Parker 148 OPS+
   39. sunnyday2 Posted: August 03, 2012 at 07:25 AM (#4199509)
I have seen Dylan twice--the Budokan tour in '79 (A+) and again in the early '80 (D). I have no expectation that he is ever going to play an A+ concert again. I would expect something closer to a D. And of course he plays these gigantic venues. I'm planning on missing his fall tour. And trust me I am a big big fan including of Blood on the Tracks. I just (last Saturday night) saw a group of very very solid Minneapolis musicians who did a 2-night stand as the Blood on the Tracks Band Live Tribute to Dylan, which was terrific.
   40. DL from MN Posted: August 07, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4202367)
Looking over the 1975 awards voting leads to some strange results.

1) Why did that many people think Fingers was better than Gossage in both MVP and CYA voting? Gossage had more innings, more strikeouts, more saves and his ERA was run lower. What was the background story that made Fingers look that much better than his numbers to all those voters? Fingers somehow scored two 1st place MVP votes and two 1st place CYA votes.

2) George Brett above Toby Harrah? Harrah outhit Brett and played SS.

3) Mike Schmidt leads the league in HR and finishes 16th. Luzinski hits about the same and finishes 2nd. Batting average trumps defense.
   41. Chris Fluit Posted: August 07, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4202682)
1) Why did that many people think Fingers was better than Gossage in both MVP and CYA voting? Gossage had more innings, more strikeouts, more saves and his ERA was run lower. What was the background story that made Fingers look that much better than his numbers to all those voters? Fingers somehow scored two 1st place MVP votes and two 1st place CYA votes.



I suspect the answer is in the standings. Fingers' A's finished 1st with the best record in the AL. Gossage's White Sox finished next to last, 22 and a 1/2 games out of a playoff spot.
   42. DL from MN Posted: August 08, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4203738)
I think coming off a World Series MVP has something to do with the results for Fingers also.
   43. DL from MN Posted: August 14, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4208003)
I'm going to open the balloting thread early and go on vacation all of next week.
   44. DL from MN Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4209705)
1975 Albums of note

Blood on the Tracks - Bob Dylan
Basement Tapes - Bob Dylan and the Band
Red Headed Stranger - Willie Nelson
Radio-Activity - Kraftwerk
Nighthawks at the Diner - Tom Waits
Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
Young Americans - David Bowie
Physical Graffiti - Led Zeppelin
Horses - Patti Smith
The Who By Numbers - The Who
TNT - AC/DC
Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd
Another Green World - Brian Eno
Pieces of the Sky - Emmylou Harris
Expensive #### - Anikulapo Kuti & Africa '70
Welcome to my Nightmare - Alice Cooper
Tonight's the Night - Neil Young and Crazy Horse
Neu! '75 - Neu!
Dreamin My Dreams - Waylon Jennings
One Size Fits All - Frank Zappa & the Mothers of Invention
Tommy - Soundtrack
Sabotage - Black Sabbath
Why Can't We Be Friends - WAR
Metal Machine Music - Lou Reed
Alive! - KISS
   45. lieiam Posted: August 17, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4211186)
1975 is another poor year of music for me... but i do have a favorite and I'm glad to see it on your (DL from MN) list above:
Patti Smith- Horses
   46. Rob_Wood Posted: August 18, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4211672)
Here are the starting pitcher leaders in Win Values for 1975. Win Values is a stat I developed to evaluate starting pitchers on a game-by-game basis based upon how many runs they gave up and how many runs their team scored relative to a league-average starting pitcher.

NL
1. Tom Seaver 4.7 wins
2. Andy Messersmith 4.5
3. John Montefusco 4.3
4. Randy Jones 3.8
5. Jerry Reuss 3.7
6. Don Sutton 3.0
7. Don Gullett 2.8
8. Burt Hooton 2.5
9. Doug Rau 1.9
10. Bob Forsch 1.9

AL
1. Jim Palmer 7.1
2. Jim Kaat 3.4
3. Catfish Hunter 3.4
4. Steve Busby 3.1
5. Frank Tanana 2.9
6. Bert Blyleven 2.4
7. Dennis Eckersley 2.3
8. Mike Torrez 2.2
9. Roger Moret 2.1
10. Ed Figueroa 1.9
   47. OCF Posted: August 19, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4211716)
Rob: I suppose it's worth looking through your list and then through my list in post 4 (corrected 6) above. There are some broad similarities. I'm not all that sure that Palmer should have quite that large a gap to everyone else.

One question (possibly relevant only to Forsch): did you do anything at all with the pitcher's own hitting?
   48. TomH Posted: August 20, 2012 at 07:43 AM (#4212319)
Rob's method may assume all defenses are created equal; endowed by their managers with certain unalienable qualities; that among these are range, hands, and the pursuit of baseballs.
   49. Rob_Wood Posted: August 20, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4212823)
My win values method does not consider a pitcher's own hitting and, as Tom mentions, assumes average defenses.
   50. sunnyday2 Posted: August 31, 2012 at 10:48 AM (#4223501)
Best LPs of 1975

1. One Size Fits All--Frank Zappa. FZ is my all-time favorite musician and this is my all-time favorite Zappa record. Inca Roads and the 2 Sofas are among his finest songs.

2. Born to Run--Bruce Springsteen. Seems like a long, long time ago that Bruce was the future of rock 'n' roll. But seriously, he was that good.

3. Blood On the Tracks--Bob Dylan. One of his top 4-5.

4. Still Crazy After All These Years--Paul Simon
5. Jesse’s Jig and Other Favorites--Steve Goodman. A great, totally underrated talent.
6. Prisoner in Disguise--Linda Ronstadt
7. The Koln Concert--Keith Jarrett
8. Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy--Elton John. And I am not particularly an Elton John fan. But this record hit the spot.
9. Abandoned Luncheonette--Darryl Hall and John Oates
10. Modern Times--Al Stewart

11. Good Ole Boys--Randy Newman
12. Will O’ the Wisp--Leon Russell. Back to the Island remains a classic.
13. Beautiful Loser--Bob Seger
14. The Last Record Album--Little Feat
15. Katie Lied--Steely Dan
16. The Stamp Album--Climax Blues Band
17. Crisis? What Crisis?--Supertramp
18. Home Plate --Bonnie Raitt
19. Physical Graffiti--Led Zeppelin
20. Breezy Stories--Danny O’Keefe

Best Songs

1. Sofa No. 2--Frank Zappa
2. Dance with Me--Orleans
3. Inca Roads--Frank Zappa
4. Born to Run--Bruce Springsteen
5. Back to the Island--Leon Russell
6. Lily Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts--Bob Dylan
7. Thunder Road--Bruce Springsteen
8. Prisoner in Disguise--Linda Ronstadt
9. Doctor Wu--Steely Dan
10. Mr. President, Have Pity on the Working Man--Randy Newman. A song that ought to be resurrected in the 21C.

11. Philadelphia Freedom--Elton John
12. Silver Blue--Linda Ronstadt
13. The Dark and Rolling Sea--Al Stewart
14. Tenth Avenue Freezeout--Bruce Springsteen
15. Simple Twist of Fate--Bob Dylan
16. Birmingham--Randy Newman
17. Spoon River--Steve Goodman
18. Tangled Up In Blue--Bob Dylan
19. The Spirit Returning--Climax Blues Band
20. Kashmir--Led Zeppelin


   51. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 03, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4225714)
Prelim (no extra credit for postseason efforts):
1) Joe Morgan
2) Jim Palmer
3) Ken Singleton
4) Catfish Hunter
5) Rich Gossage
6) Gene Tenace
7) Toby Harrah
8) Johnny Bench
9) Rod Carew
10) Andy Messersmith
11) Fred Lynn
12) Bobby Grich
   52. DL from MN Posted: September 04, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4226249)
Just so people don't wonder - only people who didn't vote last year are required to post a prelim.
   53. Chris Fluit Posted: September 04, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4226260)
In other words, "Get those ballots in, guys."
   54. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 05, 2012 at 09:14 AM (#4226893)
Just so people don't wonder - only people who didn't vote last year are required to post a prelim.


I know, Dan, but since I use the stats above, I like to make a prelim first here and then move it to the ballot thread.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Darren
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.9056 seconds
68 querie(s) executed