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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Wednesday, January 02, 2013

Most Meritorious Player: 1978 Discussion

Hello to Ron Guidry and goodbye too early to Lyman Bostock.

A Yankees - Royals rematch in the ALCS and Dodgers - Phillies again in the NLCS. The Yankees beat the Dodgers the World Series in six games again as well.

MMP voting will end on February 6, 2012.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Parker, Dave		36.8		6.9
Rice, Jim		36.0		7.4
Simmons, Ted		28.3		5.3
Smalley, Roy		21.5		5.7
Otis, Amos		29.3		7.1
Clark, Jack		28.0		5.8
Cey, Ron		25.2		5.1
Madlock, Bill		23.4		4.6
Randolph, Willie	22.8		5.6
Rose, Pete		26.9		3.4
Concepcion, Dave	25.3		3.5
Lopes, Davey		25.5		4.8
Bowa, Larry		21.6		5.7
Fisk, Carlton		27.4		5.6
Smith, Reggie		24.1		4.4
Burroughs, Jeff		26.6		4.4
Schmidt, Mike		22.7		6.0
Nettles, Graig		26.1		5.3
Carter, Gary		23.6		5.6
Evans, Darrell		24.1		3.6
Winfield, Dave		28.0		4.1
Bando, Sal		22.7		5.3
Foster, George		29.2		4.7
DeCinces, Doug		26.6		6.5
Smith, Ozzie		19.0		3.0
DeJesus, Ivan		19.1		3.6
Yount, Robin		18.7		4.8
Thornton, Andre		24.7		5.0
Thompson, Jason		22.4		5.3
Brett, George		22.5		5.1
Murray, Eddie		27.6		3.9
Lynn, Fred		27.8		4.1
Maddox, Garry		21.2		4.9
Ken Singleton		27.5		4.3
Cruz, Jose		26.2		5.1
Sundberg, Jim		23.7		5.0
Baylor, Don		23.3		1.3

Pitcher 		SH WS		BBR WAR
Guidry, Ron		31.3		9.3
Niekro, Phil		29.5		10.1
Caldwell, Mike		28.0		7.8
Matlack, John		25.2		5.9
Eckersley, Dennis	23.8		7.0
Palmer, Jim		27.0		6.0
Goltz, Dave		19.2		6.3
Blue, Vida		22.6		6.0
Knepper, Bob		23.4		5.5
Jenkins, Ferguson	20.9		5.2
Swan, Craig		16.5		5.3
Gura, Larry		18.9		4.1
Hooton, Burt		19.0		5.1
Sorenson, Lary		19.9		4.7
Tiant, Luis		16.9		5.4
Seaver, Tom		19.5		4.3
Denny, John		16.2		5.4

Garber, Gene		20.7		3.7
Gossage, Rich		20.2		3.1
Tekulve, Kent		19.7		3.2
Stanley, Bob		17.4		4.0

 

DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2013 at 07:17 PM | 150 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4358502)
No, a style of music becomes significant when EVERYONE pays attention to it.



Which in the USA means "when the whites like it."


Well, if 88% or more of the population isn't paying attention, it's hard to call it significant. Is the MLS significant?
   102. SavoyBG Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4358507)
88% of the US population never paid attention to punk music, do you think it was significant?

88% of the population does not pay attention to Howard Stern, do you think he has been significant?

   103. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4358526)
88% of the US population never paid attention to punk music


Doubtful. More than 12% of the population is aware of punk rock.

Howard Stern, do you think he has been significant


No
   104. SavoyBG Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4358533)
Howard Stern, do you think he has been significant


No


So a guy who makes 100 million a year and has like 10 million fans is insignificant?

The guy has been the most influential broadcaster in the history of radio.

   105. SavoyBG Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4358538)
Doubtful. More than 12% of the population is aware of punk rock.



I doubt that, but even if so, being "aware" of something doesn't mean that people pay any attention to it.

More than 12% of people are aware of bestiality, but that doesn't mean that its practice is significant.
   106. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4358580)
So a guy who makes 100 million a year and has like 10 million fans is insignificant?


Yes. Kids are not going to be studying Howard Stern in the history books. He's had a successful talk show but I can't think of anything at all he's influenced.

I think we're sufficiently off topic now and I'm not interested in discussing Howard Stern in this forum. If we can't get back to 1978 somehow I think I'll close the thread.
   107. SavoyBG Posted: January 30, 2013 at 07:00 PM (#4358589)
He's had a successful talk show but I can't think of anything at all he's influenced.


He influenced the entire evolution of radio from DJs just playing music to all of the "morning zoos" and every other guy doing comedy on the radio.


In October 1992, Stern became the first to have the number one morning radio show in New York and Los Angeles simultaneously. In the New York market The Howard Stern Show was the highest-rated morning program for seven consecutive years between 1994 and 2001. In 1994, Billboard magazine added the "Nationally Syndicated Air Personality of the Year" category to its annual radio awards based on entertainment value, creativity and ratings success. Stern was awarded the title from 1994 to 2002.

That's like 9 straight MVPs. He's the Gretzky of radio.



   108. bjhanke Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:32 AM (#4358756)
Savoy - Thanks for the essay on concept albums. I don't know the music of any of the people you listed before rock. I know the names, but not the music, except for Sinatra, whose music I don't like. Your comment on Sgt. Pepper was what I was channelling. I remember it coming out, and people calling it the first concept album, but, unless I and others have the timing wrong (which is possible), Volunteers of America was released, or recorded, or something, just ahead of Sgt. Pepper. Beatles fans were, at the time, acquiring a bad reputation for claiming that the Fab Four had invented practically everything. As far as I was able to ferret out, the only thing they invented (and they may have been late on this, too) was the idea of marketing albums to teenagers as the PRIMARY method of marketing, rather than focusing on singles, with albums as an afterthought. I remember The Ventures as "that guitar-driven band." They were known, to my teenage generation, simply for their guitar sound and how similar their songs sounded to each other (not a slam, BTW; the same is true of Buddy Holly and no one was giving his memory grief about it). Pet Sounds and Freak Out! (both of which I loved the first time I heard them) were considered, by my turning-20s contemporaries, as being sui generis. Pet Sounds was "that new, weird Beach Boys album that is getting all this critical acclaim, but which the Beach Boys themselves couldn't perform live without a recorded track or a small orchestra, and which is causing a split in the band between Brian and everyone else, especially Mike Love." Zappa was just considered to be Zappa. New and great, and nothing like anything else we had ever heard and unlikely to spread out into a genre because no one else could write like that.

The big argument about Rock Operas, when Tommy came out, was whether The Who had invented the genre with Tommy, or whether "A Quick One While He's Away" counts, although it doesn't occupy even one whole side of its album.

With regard to Chuck Berry, I'm probably talking past everyone else. I focus on the lyrics. Berry was the first artist I've ever heard who focused his lyrics on the troubles of being a teenager. That's culturally significant to what rock and roll was and still is. As far as the formal music, I would imagine that he was well versed in country, western, jazz, blues, and R&B. He was a professional musician; he almost had to be familiar with all that, and it all fermented together in his head to generate his music. But it's the importance of his lyrics that is most important, IMO, to developing what we now call "Rock."

I get exposed in my lack of older music knowledge when the term "rockabilly" comes up. The first time I ever heard the term was when the DJs here in STL attached it to Buddy Holly (with or without The Crickets), Eddie Cochrane's Summertime Blues, Buddy Knox's Party Doll, and Tommy Roe. Jim told me, years ago, that this was just an illusion caused by the times. We Baby Boomers were a huge audience, and Buddy Holly had many chart hits, while the earlier people you mentioned didn't have that exposure to us (as opposed to any other generation). I also have never even heard the name "Wynonie Harris" before, which may well be related to his(?) not being in the Hall.

There may be a geographical bias as well. I looked at your list of Alan Freed's 1952 songs, and, while I have heard music by many of the groups you list, I have NEVER heard ANY of the songs you listed. I only heard later stuff. I think that it would be no surprise to find out that STL was a year or two behind 1952 in terms of recognizing rock and roll. The version of the story of rock as presented by STL DJs was that the term itself was an old blues term for sex, and the genre got started by Bill Haley and the Comets in Blackboard Jungle. For all I know, the DJs didn't know any more than that. I was 13 years old and had almost no knowledge of music history. I took their word for it, until I started to read a little rock criticism, met Don Malcolm, who knows a lot about music, and met that friend I mentioned, Jim.

I, personally, am very glad you're taking the time to do these posts for a group of baseball analysts. You apparently have serious music history credentials. I'm learning stuff that, otherwise, I'd go to my grave without having any idea. So, thanks! - Brock
   109. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4358761)
Volunteers of America was released, or recorded, or something, just ahead of Sgt. Pepper.


Sgt. Pepper was the summmer of 1967, Volunteers was late 1969.

And those were not my comments, they came from wikipedia.
   110. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:48 AM (#4358764)
With regard to Chuck Berry, I'm probably talking past everyone else. I focus on the lyrics. Berry was the first artist I've ever heard who focused his lyrics on the troubles of being a teenager. That's culturally significant to what rock and roll was and still is. As far as the formal music, I would imagine that he was well versed in country, western, jazz, blues, and R&B. He was a professional musician; he almost had to be familiar with all that, and it all fermented together in his head to generate his music. But it's the importance of his lyrics that is most important, IMO, to developing what we now call "Rock."



I have no interest in lyrics other than phonetically.

That's probably one reason why I prefer James Brown to Bob Dylan, for instance.

   111. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:51 AM (#4358765)
I get exposed in my lack of older music knowledge when the term "rockabilly" comes up.


Here's a list I did of the greatest rockabilly records.

100 Greatest Rockabilly Songs
   112. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:55 AM (#4358768)
I think that it would be no surprise to find out that STL was a year or two behind 1952 in terms of recognizing rock and roll.


It's not St. Louis that was behind, it was white people who were behind. Believe me those records were huge in North City.

   113. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:58 AM (#4358769)
the genre got started by Bill Haley and the Comets in Blackboard Jungle.


Bill Haley had several big hits before The Blackboard Jungle came out. That's just when most of the unhip white kids finally discovered rock and roll.
   114. bjhanke Posted: January 31, 2013 at 05:55 AM (#4358794)
Savoy - Thanks for even more info! I didn't remember Sgt. Pepper and Volunteers as being that far apart, but I have no reason to doubt you (or Wikipedia), so I guess what I was hearing was just people who were getting disgusted with Beatles fans giving them credit for everything. Either that, or the Airplane was doing Volunteers live in 1967, but didn't record it until 1969. That I have GRAVE doubts about. It's true that some of the acid rock bands didn't get recorded until they'd been playing for 2-3 years, but the Airplane had already released albums, and Grace Slick didn't join the band until about 1967. I doubt that they were sitting on a concept album that they were playing live for over 2 years.

Comment #110 was particularly revealing to me. I'm a little tone deaf, so formal music analysis is beyond me, but I have, essentially, a Master's Degree in theater analysis (the label on the degree is "English", but that's a lie), so I gravitate towards weird noises, percussion, and lyrics. I am qualified to say things like Chuck Berry's lyrics changed or invented the cultural identity of rock and roll, to the point where people who didn't get into it until I did thought that he had invented the idea of teenager music (which, as far as I know, he did do, and I have checked that one out, looking for teenager lyrics in earlier artists and not finding any). Even swing and the Lindy Hop dance genre aren't overtly teenager music, although that's clearly the audience. A love song is a love song. A song about the frustrations of high school classes and the joy and release of putting a dime into a jukebox is teenager stuff, impossible to confuse with anything else. That's Chuck's contribution, as far as I'm concerned. But if you don't follow lyrics, you aren't going to see that any more that I can follow a key change.

It's worth saying that I've had this issue with people with real music talent before. I go to a lot of concerts with a woman called Fiondel, who was accepted into Julliard as a singer, but there wasn't money, so she couldn't go. She can't follow a drummer, because she is so distracted by melodies and harmonies. I can pick a drum line out of anything except that multi-guitar version of metal that sounds, to me, like a loud angry bee (Iron Maiden), but Fiondel assures me that there are layered guitar harmonies going on that I can't hear. So, I'll ask her if the singer can actually sing and she'll ask me if the drummer and bassist are any good and why. We both get to appreciate more of the music that way. So I can tell you with some assurance that the best-drummed Black Sabbath album is the one where they used Bev Bevan on drums, and you can tell me whether they could actually play their guitars and whether Ozzie Osborne can really sing, or if he's just really good at selling lyrics. (For those of you who don't know, Bevan was the drummer in The Move, which was Jeff Lynne's first band, and a very good one. Sabbath was without a drummer at the time, and Bevan was willing to do an album, although he wasn't interested in joining the band in general.) - Brock
   115. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 08:06 AM (#4358808)
all of the "morning zoos" and every other guy doing comedy on the radio


Boone and Erickson were doing that in the 60s. Vaudeville acts were on at the very beginning of radio. Stern is just a raunchier Steve Allen. That's it, I'm done discussing Howard Stern.
   116. Chris Fluit Posted: January 31, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4358833)
I know this thread has derailed a little (okay, a lot) but its not too late for new voters to post a prelim ballot and get in on the 1978 vote.
   117. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 09:51 AM (#4358859)
Thanks Chris, new voters have the whole weekend to post a prelim ballot.
   118. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4358962)
Boone and Erickson were doing that in the 60s. Vaudeville acts were on at the very beginning of radio. Stern is just a raunchier Steve Allen. That's it, I'm done discussing Howard Stern.


$100 million a year.

He makes much more money than any baseball player. If he's insignificant than so is baaseball.
   119. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:10 PM (#4358993)
Boone and Erickson were doing that in the 60s.


That's like saying that Babe Ruth was insignificant in 1919 because Ned Williamson had hit 27 HRs in a season many years before Babe did.

I never heard of Boone and Erickson before, but I just listened to some clips. Pretty lame.

   120. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4359021)
He makes much more money than any baseball player.


I don't vote for awards based on the size of a player's paycheck. I doubt your list of favorite records was based on units sold.
   121. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4359027)
I don't vote for awards based on the size of a player's paycheck. I doubt your list of favorite records was based on units sold.


No. but money = significance.

Why do you think that A-Rod gets more coverage than lots of players who are better than him now?

   122. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4359045)
Boone and Erickson were doing that in the 60s. Vaudeville acts were on at the very beginning of radio. Stern is just a raunchier Steve Allen.


This is absurd, it's like saying that Johnny Lydon was just an angrier Frank Sinatra
   123. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4359083)
Johnny Lydon was just an angrier Frank Sinatra


Sid Vicious sang on "My Way"
   124. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:14 PM (#4359092)
money = significance


Explain why Van Gogh died penniless.
   125. bjhanke Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4359104)
I want to emphasize what Chris said in #116 - If you're having fun watching us get ourselves educated by each other about rock and roll (I now want real bad to go to a rock show with Savoy (do you live anywhere near STL?)), imagine how much fun we can be discussing baseball players, which we all actually know something about. And all you have to do is post a prelim here if you haven't voted before, and then finally vote. BIG HELP NOTE, or at least it was to me. You have a weekend to post that prelim, and you can go over to the Ballot thread and find several fine final ballots already posted, with reasons for the choices, and get a general idea of who is saying what about whom. Helps your prelim a lot, to loot us for whatever we've been saying and then add your own agreements/disagreements. We do NOT consider that to be cheating in any way. It doesn't even take that much time; no one is expecting everyone to go through the laborious processes that Ileiam does. But, if you find his list very plausible, just say that you agree with him a lot and start composing that prelim, using his lists as a starter kit in the analysis. No one here minds if you base your analysis on culling and combining what is already there. You're not in for any plagiarism suits: Loot anything you can get from our ballots at will. Who knows, you may make a Big Discovery that has eluded us for years. We promise to be grateful, if not dead.

- Brock (Voting is FUN!) Hanke
   126. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4359109)
Sid Vicious sang on "My Way"


One of my favorite reviews described Sid's version of My Way as "an act of cultural terrorism"
   127. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4359120)
This is absurd, it's like saying that Johnny Lydon was just an angrier Frank Sinatra


This whole discussion is absurd. People, including me, should have stopped engaging Savoy when he said he was offended that some people didn't list list black musicians playing black music among their favorites. He seems to be pushing some sort of agenda, but it's unclear what he hopes to achieve by trying to get people to admit that anything good about modern pop music was first invented by the blacks.
   128. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4359139)
I'm glad the discussion continued if only to find out about Wynonie Harris. I thought we'd be talking more about Jim Rice.
   129. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:41 PM (#4359151)
(I now want real bad to go to a rock show with Savoy (do you live anywhere near STL?)


I'm in NJ.


I'm glad the discussion continued if only to find out about Wynonie Harris. I thought we'd be talking more about Jim Rice.


IMO the first rock and roll record came from Wynonie Harris early in 1948:

Wynonie Harris - Good Rockin' Tonight
   130. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4359154)
This whole discussion is absurd. People, including me, should have stopped engaging Savoy when he said he was offended that some people didn't list list black musicians playing black music among their favorites.


Would you say the same thing if I was offended that there were no black players in MLB in 1942?

   131. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4359183)
Would you say the same thing if I was offended that there were no black players in MLB in 1942?


No, because being offended by institutional racism, and being offended by one's taste in music are two completely different things. That you seem to think they are the same, or even remotely similar, speaks volumes. I imagine most posters here have never attended an A.M.E. church service either. Does that offend you as well?
   132. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4359198)
No, because being offended by institutional racism, and being offended by one's taste in music are two completely different things.


Whites who only listen to white music have gotten that way from subtle institutional racism. They grew up listening to radio stations that would only play music by white acts (and Hendrix).

Can you tell me why it's okay for a so called "Rock" station to play records by the Kinks, but not play "In The Midnight Hour" by Wilson Pickett?

Soul music from the 1960s is just as much a part of rock as any white guitar oriented music from any era.

Check the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame, it jammed with soul artists from the 1960s.

Somewhere along the line white people decided that "Rock" music was mainly just played by "White guys with guitars."

That could not be further from the truth.

Run-DMC sounds much more like the origins of rock and roll (Bo Diddley) than Yes or ELP or Joni Mitchell, but those white acts are all acepted by whites as rock and roll while most whites deny that hip hop is part of rock.

Thankfully the Hall Of Fame knows better, and Run-DMC has ben inducted, as well as Public Enemy.

   133. DL from MN Posted: January 31, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4359266)
Can you tell me why it's okay for a so called "Rock" station to play records by the Kinks, but not play "In The Midnight Hour" by Wilson Pickett?


You're listening to the wrong station.
   134. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4359276)
You're listening to the wrong station.


Every so called "Classic Rock" station plays the Kinks but does not play Wilson Pickett.

I don't listen to the radio at all, but clearly the AOR stations of the 70s and 80s and 90s set the template that subtly said that "Rock" was played by white guys with guitars, and that black music of the day (Stevie Wonder, Earth, Wind and Fire, Kool and the Gang, etc...) was not part of rock.

When I was in high school (1971-1975) there were only 3-4 kids who liked black music, out of about 1300 in the all white school. It was all Led Zep, ELP, Tull, Elton John, The Who, Chicago, Cat Stevens etc. I know this because I surveyed the entire school for a class project.
   135. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: January 31, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4359311)
SavoyBG Posted: January 29, 2013 at 12:43 PM (#4357409)
...
By the way, the name SavoyBG comes from the Savoy record label, my grandfather, Herman Lubinsky was the owner.


"Many of the label's African-American artists begrudged label founder, Herman Lubinsky, feeling grossly underpaid for their work. Tiny Price, a journalist for the African-American newspaper, The Newark Herald News, said of Savoy and Lubinsky: 'There's no doubt everybody hated Herman Lubinsky.'" - Wikipedia

"Lubinsky was always on the prowl for new talent, but working for him was a double-edged sword that cut deeply into his stable of mostly African American artists. On the one hand Lubinsky offered the chance to record for a growing jazz label and the promise of national exposure; on the other hand, he grossly underpaid his artists and was (quietly) despised by his roster..." - Black and Blue: the Redd Foxx Story, by Michael Starr

"I was familiar with the infamous Herman Lubinsky ... He was notorious for stiffing his artists. In truth he simply underpaid them, and took advantage of their temporary needs in order to acquire their best work for the price of a quick fix (jazz) or a lapsed car note (gospel). ... A better revenge occurred when the albums began to sell in the millions, and Savoy's publishing company was obliged to finally pay up, even though in several cases it was the widows and orphans who benefited." - Anthony Heilbut, "The Fan Who Knew Too Much"

"Diligent young songwriter Clyde Otis, up from Mississippi, remembered pitching his first songs to Savoy: 'Herman recorded a couple of my songs ... For any song that I gave him, all I would get is the twenty-five dollars up front. That was it; I never got any royalties from him, not ever. I thought that was how it was supposed to be. He took the copyright, everything, oh yeah [laughs]." - Record Makers and Breakers, by John Broven

"The label's owner, Herman Lubinsky, is infamous for his underpayment, or even nonpayment, of everyone with whom he worked. ... Lee Magid, who worked for Lubinsky, calls him 'a horror story ... At a time when the business was run by cheap sons of #######, this son of a ##### made the others seem generous.'" - Faith in Time: the Life of Jimmy Scott, by David Ritz


SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4359027)

I don't vote for awards based on the size of a player's paycheck. I doubt your list of favorite records was based on units sold.

No. but money = significance.
   136. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4359321)
Yes, my grandfather was a scum bag. He stayed married to my grandmother, but he lived somewhere else with a girlfriend. I only saw him about 8 times in my life. He did not attend my bar mitzvah, he sent me a $25 bond. He did not even know who I was when I called him once, and I was his first grandchild.

   137. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4359327)
Herman was not unique in not paying his artists. Read Tommy James book about Morris Levy. And it wasn't a black/white thing either. One of the worst of all label owners was black gangster Don Robey in Houston, who owned Duke-Peacock.

Jackie Wilson was dangled out of a window by Brunswick owner Nat Tarnapol's men to force him to resign with the label.

The "Hesch" character on "The Sopranos" was based on Morris Levy.

   138. SavoyBG Posted: January 31, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4359619)
Check out my avatar, it's a picture of my grandfather with Joe DiMaggio:

Herman & Joe D.
   139. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 31, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4359628)
Every so called "Classic Rock" station plays the Kinks but does not play Wilson Pickett.

Wholly inaccurate

I don't listen to the radio at all,
'
and that explains that.

   140. lieiam Posted: February 01, 2013 at 01:27 AM (#4359810)
@SavoyBG:
From your list of black arists in... whatever post that was, I think my favorites would be:
Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Temptations, Smokey Robinson & Miracles, and Public Enemy.

@BJHanke:
Like DL from MN, my intro to Wire and The Jam (and pretty much all music from the late 70s) came years later, as I was quite young back then. And agreed with DL's recommendation on Wire to start with Pink Flag. They've got quite a number of albums in 3 distinct periods, as they made 3 (Pink Flag, Chairs Missing and 154), then broke up, got back together in the mid 80s and made a number of albums (This is my least favorite of their eras) and broke up again, then came back in early 2000s and have now made 3 more albums (Send, Object 47, and Red Barked Tree). For The Jam, I think albums 3-5 (All Mod Cons, Setting Sons, Sound Affects) out of the 6 they made are the ones that stand out.
   141. SavoyBG Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:36 AM (#4359821)
The Jam, I like "Town Called Malice" a lot, probably because it was just a rewrite of some Motown hit like "I'm Ready For Love" by Martha & the Vandellas.

   142. bjhanke Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:07 AM (#4359828)
Savoy - The classic rock stations in STL play music from artists of all colors, certainly including Wilson Pickett. On the other hand, STL may be unusual. Chuck Berry is still alive (he lives in a town about an hour out of STL called Wentzville, where my brother also lives). What's more, he still plays. Regular as clockwork, once a month, at the Duck Room in the Blueberry Hill bar with the occasional holiday show somewhere a little bigger. His Blueberry Hill shows sell out the day they are announced, even though everyone knows he plays every month. Blueberry Hill is an odd bar, at least for STL. The owner, Joe Edwards, is still living in the 1950s-1960s. The walls are covered with posters, album covers, assorted knicknacks from Howdy Doody puppets on through to about 1969, and a big display of old 1950s-1960s comic books, which always makes me sad to see, because he didn't know to get polarized glass, so the sun has bleached out almost all the red colors.

Blueberry Hill is in an area of town (actually mostly in a suburb called University City) that is, essentially, the shopping district / student ghetto for Washington U. Edwards has worked hard for decades to improve what was once a declining slum, and has largely succeeded. The shopping strip is now much safer and more upscale, and has extended east of Skinker Blvd., which was a hardcore slum 20 years ago. His current project, which has been funded and will be soon built, is to put a streetcar line from the U. City part of The Loop down Delmar Blvd. east of Skinker and into Forest Park. Edwards is amazing, and The Loop has become a serious tourist trap, for those whose taste runs back to the 1950s. If you're ever in STL, give me an email or something, and I'll take you there. I imagine you'll enjoy it, especially when I take you to Vintage Vinyl.

And I'm sorry your grandfather was a jackass. You still know more about old music than I ever will. - Brock
   143. fra paolo Posted: February 01, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4359953)
OK, this is a demonstration of how it takes me a long time to do a proper job at this analysis.

You may recall, many music posts ago, I said I'd look at Jim Rice's fielding in 1978. Here's how he stacks up under several popular systems:

TotalZone +7 (not his best year with the glove, which comes in 1983, but his third-best; Fangraphs FRAA converts this to a +8)
BPro FRAA +2.8 (not his best year, which comes in 1984, and not even his third-best)
WSAB Fldg +1.7 (which is his second-best year, after 1984)
Humphreys 0 (not his best year, which is a tie between 1977 and 1986; and not even his third-best)

What I did next was to look at the following:

What was the average percentage of Balls in Play Outs that were Outfield Put Outs at the league level and at Boston's level from 1969 to 1978? What perecentag of all Outfield Put Outs were made by the leftfielder. I found the results surprising, given the likelihood that the Wall curtails the number of chances available to a Fenway Park left-fielder. I also compared the league percent of RH PA against that of Boston's, to see if Boston left-fielders were possibly facing an unusally high number of opportunities, given the propensity of batters to pull the ball. Finally, I threw in the total number of put outs by Boston leftfielders.
Year    Lg% OF    Bos% OF    Lg% LF    Bos% LF    Lg% RH    Bos% RH    Bos LF
1969      31        28         31        31         63        60         285
1970      30        31         28        29         64        63         288
1971      32        33         29        29         64        64         321
1972      31        30         28        29         65        62         278
1973      32        33         29        28         65        69         306
1974      33        35         29        24         65        66         288
1975      33        36         31        28         61        63         337
1976      34        35         30        28         61        59         339
1977      32        32         30        33         57        52         357
1978      33        32         30        30         57        53         344

Something important to note is the sudden jump in put outs in 1975. What happened was that the number made by the centrefielder (Lynn) fell below league norms, after his predecssors had tracked the league rate fairly closely from 1969 through 1974. The interesting thing is that the additional put outs are going to the rightfielder. As a result, the jump in the quantity of put outs is not reflected much in the percentages, where the rate remains around the league norm with the exception of 1977.

Apart from 1969, 1974 and 1975, Boston teams did not have an unusually high or low number of Outfield Put Outs, being within a percentage point of the league average. However, it was only in 1974-7, that Boston leftfielders departed from league Put-Out rate norms. Nonetheless, I anticipated more of an effect from Fenway's wall than is actually seen here.

Rice's bump, in TotalZone and in Humphreys, comes from his arm. Under Humphreys, he'd be a negative fielder but for his success in holding or throwing out runners. And it does seem to be in throwing runners out. Boston LFs led the league in assists in 1978. What's also interesting is that all of their outfield positions do well in assists in 1978. CF and RF are both tied for 3rd in the league. Looking at TotalZone Rof, which is their measure of arm, Rice and Evans both are at +4. Lynn is a 0. Evans and Lynn have exactly the same Hold% according to BB-ref. Evans has the advantage in Kill% 3.6 to 2.2. (Rice leads both of them, 58.9 and 8, respectively.)

Based on all this, it is my suspicion that TotalZone may overrate Rice's range a bit. It also seems to give a lot of value to the ability to kill baserunners, something it shares with Humphreys' system. I have no idea whether this is 'right' or not, if one can use such a term in talking about fielding metrics, but it would make an interesting discussion in the context of 2012's AL MVP election.
   144. SavoyBG Posted: February 01, 2013 at 12:34 PM (#4359973)
The classic rock stations in STL play music from artists of all colors, certainly including Wilson Pickett.


Keep in mind, I'm not referring to "oldies" stations. I'm referring to "Classic Rock" stations. the ones that play what is known as "Album Rock."

They are two different and distinct radio formats.
   145. bjhanke Posted: February 01, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4360527)
fra - That's an interesting analysis. I'd have assumed that Bosox LF had lower rates of fly balls caught than RF, because of the Monster. What your data suggests is different. I'm not quite sure what o make of it yet, but it is certainly worth knowing.

Savoy - I see the distinction you're making, and I would suppose that it's true. It certainly is in STL, but there's a timing issue here. The big Classic Rock station here is KSHE, a FM station that got started in 1967 as one of the first FM acid rock stations in the country (I've seen rock historians rank it as early as second in the country to adopt the format, although I have no idea if this is true). But in any case, the station simply doesn't have any material from earlier than about 1966 to play. They weren't playing oldies in 1967, they were playing all the new acid rock, because their business model allowed them to play all 17 minutes of In-A-Gadda-Da_Vida without a commercial break. As time passed, they held on to that acid rock audience through the horrors of the disco decade, and then have slowly branched out into things like grunge and the pop versions of metal. The actual oldies station (103.3, I've forgotten the call letters) plays a lot of black music from the 1960s, but almost no acid rock at all. So your distinction certainly holds here, but it doesn't really have anything to do with race; it has to do with the timing of FM radio. Before 1967, FM stations were either talk shows or played classical and opera. KSHE was breaking new ground, and then they tried to hold onto that ground. What they never did have was a collection of black songs to play, except for people like Hendrix and Richie Havens. They don't even have any Motown. We do have a "weird music" station, KDHX, 88.1, that will play anything, including whole 4-hour shows of 1940s blues, DJ'd by black guys who actually have serious collections of 1940s blues. I know the guy who used to do their Salsa show before his life got too complicated for him to give that much time. If I were to try to actually hear some of those songs that you listed in your big list, I'd try to find out if they have a R&B show, which would probably include those. I would imagine that there are many cities with stations like KSHE, which play "classic rock" and have very few black artists because acid rock doesn't have many. I have no idea, really, whether there is a race issue there, or just the timing. - Brock
   146. Yardape Posted: February 03, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4361109)
I spent a lot of time this week trying to decide how to properly weight FIP-based pitching and RA-based pitching, which indirectly led to me considering how to handle fielding in general. I think I've struck a balance that I like, and I'm happy with my ballot, although the two Dodger infielders rank a lot higher for me than they do in the consensus. Oh well. For defense I try to look at a combination of the available metrics, but my final ratings tend to be more conservative (ie, within a narrower band with fewer outliers). I also give credit to defenders on good defensive teams, although there can obviously be good defenders on bad teams.

1. Ron Guidry Best pitcher, best player. Great season.
2. Jim Rice A very good season, but I have Guidry comfortably ahead (including postseason).
3. Davey Lopes Includes his strong postseason. Best NL player; best 2B.
4. Ron Cey Best 3B.
5. Carlton Fisk Best C.
6. Mike Caldwell
7. Dave Parker
8. Jon Matlack He may be the biggest surprise to me from the MMP project. I think this is the third (fourth?) year he's been on my ballot, which is enough that I may have to take a look at him in HoM voting next year.
9. Ted Simmons Close in hitting but I have Fisk as stronger defensively.
10. Phil Niekro Obviously my pitching weight doesn't value innings as highly as some systems, or Knucksie would be closer to the top. Nice season, though.
11. Graig Nettles
12. Greg Luzinski
13. Gary Carter Good season for catchers; three on the ballot.

Next five: Otis, Garvey, Smalley, Bowa, Foster
   147. EricC Posted: February 05, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4362917)
1978 MMP Prelim.

I've participated in many HoM elections in the past. For MMP, the
methodology uses primarily Win Shares, with WAR as a tiebreaker,
and uses positional adjustments, which especially helps catchers.
Please excuse the lack of detailed comments.

1. Guidry
2. Parker
3. Fisk
4. Rice
5. Caldwell
6. Niekro, Phil
7. Matlack
8. Simmons
9. Palmer
10. Otis
11. DeCinces
12. Foster
13. Madlock
   148. Chris Fluit Posted: February 05, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4363083)
Keep in mind, I'm not referring to "oldies" stations. I'm referring to "Classic Rock" stations. the ones that play what is known as "Album Rock."

They are two different and distinct radio formats.


I'll back Savoy up on this one. The only black artist played on classic rock stations in Detroit when I was growing up was Jimi Hendrix. No Wilson Pickett or Sam Cooke or anything like that. Not even Ray Charles. That was the oldies station, not classic rock.
   149. EricC Posted: February 06, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4364596)
As I am apparently Bill Madlock's best friend, I took a closer look why his season did so well in my system,
and find the placement reasonable.

Basically, his rate stats and 2B position more than made up for his significant lack of playing time.

To my surprise, his offensive winning percentage was 8th in the majors, behind CF Amos Otis and 6
corner outfielders.

   150. lieiam Posted: February 09, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4366064)
@DL from MN:
This thread got so long I don't think I ever looked through it all and I was skimming through it now to see what I missed and I wanted to reply to your post #65 regarding third basemen and how you have quite a few higher than Doug DeCinces (you also talked about 2B but I haven't looked at that... at least not yet).
My system simply uses various "uber-stats" so I thought I'd compare the leading 3B you mentioned to see how each does in the various systems I use.

Using DeCinces as the focus:
He is tops in brWAR, fgWAR, Win Shares, & WSAB.
In bgWAR he is topped by Schmidt, Brett, & Nettles (and tied with Cey)
In drWARP1 he is topped by Cey, Nettles, & Bando

My rank of the players you mentioned (DeCinces, Cey, Schmidt, Evans, Nettles, Bando, & Brett:
9 DeCinces
15 Nettles
17 Cey
19 Schmidt
30 Brett
33 Bando
45 Evans

Anyway... that's my two cents to offer on comparing them. (I'm always intrigued to see the differences in various systems).
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