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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, September 26, 2016

Most Meritorious Player: 1997 Ballot

For 1997, each voter should rank the top 14 players from all leagues combined.

Balloting is scheduled to close at 4pm EDT on 5 October 2016.

Anyone can vote, even if you do not normally participate in Hall of Merit discussions. If you have never participated in an MMP election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 4 October 2016.

For detailed rules see one of our previous ballots.

DL from MN Posted: September 26, 2016 at 10:15 AM | 16 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: September 26, 2016 at 04:35 PM (#5307350)
1997 Ballot

1) Roger Clemens

Best pitching seasons in the history of the MMP project by my point score

1985 Gooden 21.5
1995 Maddux 21.4
1971 Carlton 21.2
1994 Maddux 20.6
1997 Clemens 19.9
1968 Gibson 19.5
1902 Waddell 19.1
1963 Koufax 18.7
1972 Seaver 18.3
1971 Seaver 18.0

2) Mike Piazza - best position player BEFORE the catcher bonus. 1970 Johnny Bench is the only time I have had a catcher at the top of my ballot and this season blows away Bench in 1970.

3) Craig Biggio - strong baserunning
4) Pedro Martinez
5) Greg Maddux - strong postseason moves him up
6) Ken Griffey Jr
7) Randy Johnson
8) Barry Bonds - three stars in a row with poor postseason performances
9) Larry Walker - Piazza, Bonds, Bagwell and Thomas all had better bats
10) Jeff Bagwell - glove separates him from Thomas
11) Frank Thomas
12) Andy Pettitte
13) Curt Schilling
14) Raul Mondesi - great glove year

15-20) Todd Hundley, Mike Mussina, Tim Salmon, Kevin Brown, Scott Rolen, Jeff Blauser
21-23) Ivan Rodriguez, Justin Thompson, Edgardo Alfonzo
   2. MrC. Posted: September 27, 2016 at 10:28 AM (#5308077)
Preliminary Ballot

1. Roger Clemens 11.19 WARR
2. Craig Biggio 8.60 WARR
3. Pedro Martinez 8.37 WARR
4. Randy Johnson 8.18 WARR
5. Greg Maddux 8.03 WARR
6. Mike Piazza 7.65 WARR
7. Ken Griffey 7.54 WARR
8. Frank Thomas 7.42 WARR
9. Andy Pettite 7.34 WARR
10. Larry Walker 7.25 WARR
11. Tom Glavine 7.03 WARR
12. Jeff Bagwell 6.83 WARR
13. Jeff KIng 6.83 WARR
14. Barry Bonds 6.68 WARR

Rest of the top 20
Kevin Brown
David Cone
Ivan Rodriguez
Tim Salmon
Tino Martinez
John Olerud
   3. MrC. Posted: September 27, 2016 at 10:28 AM (#5308079)
Actually that is my final ballot!!!!
   4. ThickieDon Posted: September 27, 2016 at 12:55 PM (#5308280)
Top three were really tough... I've put pitchers at #1 before and couldn't not vote for Clemens, although Piazza was really close.

1. Roger Clemens: through 1997 (pre-peak Pedro, pre-peak Unit), this was one of the most dominant live-ball pitching seasons of all-time; up there with epic Gooden, Carlton, Blyleven, Gibson, Koufax, Seaver seasons
2. Mike Piazza: any other year, an easy #1; offensively, obliterates any non-Piazza catching season (his 1996 is a distant #2 on the list, through 1997); post-integration, it's one of the Top 50 hitting seasons, for any position
3. Larry Walker: about even (or possibly better, factoring in baserunning) than Piazza offensively; Piazza got a bump for position

Second tier - HOFers putting up HOF-caliber years...

4. Craig Biggio: outstanding all-around season; among the top 10 in offense, baserunning and defense
5. Ken Griffey, Jr.: eye-popping traditional stats (56 HR, 147 RBI, .304 AVG); still solid in the outfield
6. Barry Bonds: right up there with Griffey; good to great all-around
7. Pedro Martinez: best pitcher in the NL

#8 through 11 put up big offense but less value elsewhere...

8. Jeff Bagwell
9. Frank Thomas
10. Edgar Martinez
11. Mark McGwire

And rounding out the top 14...

12. Nomar Garciaparra: excellent all-around; best SS in baseball
13. Ivan Rodriguez: lots of defensive value; 2nd best C in baseball
14. Jim Thome: not quite on the level of the other 1B/DH types (yet); WS performance gives him a bump into the top 14
   5. Chris Fluit Posted: September 27, 2016 at 01:43 PM (#5308355)
1997 Ballot

1. Mike Piazza, C, Los Angeles Dodgers
2. Roger Clemens, P, Toronto Blue Jays: I might be the only one not voting Clemens first but Piazza's offensive dominance as a catcher was more impressive than Clemens' dominance from the mound
3. Larry Walker, RF, Colorado Rockies: 2nd to Piazza in OPS+, 1st in RC, with +10 fielding
4. Pedro Martinez, P, Montreal Expos: 241 innings to go with eye-popping 219 ERA+
5. Ken Griffey Jr., CF, Seattle Mariners: best position player in the AL
6. Craig Biggio, 2B, Houston Astros: another great all-around season
7. Barry Bonds, LF, San Francisco Giants: 3rd in NL in OPS+ and RC, with +10 fielding
8. Jeff Bagwell, 1B, Houston Astros
9. Frank Thomas, 1B/DH, Chicago White Sox: Bagwell edges Thomas based on better fielding (and no DH time)
10. Greg Maddux, P, Atlanta Braves: 189 ERA+ in 232 IP
11. Randy Johnson, P, Seattle Mariners: 197 ERA+ in 213 IP
12. Darryl Kile, P, Houston Astros: 255 IP leads the NL
13. Edgar Martinez, DH, Seattle Mariners
14. Mark McGwire, 1B, Oakland/St. Louis: nabs the last ballot spot thanks to a combined 170 OPS+ and 144 RC

15. Andy Pettitte, P, New York Yankees
16. Nomar Garciaparra, SS, Boston Red Sox: would have loved for a 16-deep ballot so that I could include Pettitte and Nomar
17. Curt Schilling, P, Philadelphia Phillies
18. Todd Hundley, C, New York Mets
19. Kevin Brown, P, Florida Marlins
20. John Smoltz, P, Atlanta Braves
   6. EricC Posted: September 27, 2016 at 02:50 PM (#5308431)
1997 MMP ballot. See discussion thread for player comments.

1. Roger Clemens
2. Mike Piazza
3. Pedro Martinez
4. Ken Griffey Jr.
5. Greg Maddux
6. Frank Thomas
7. Randy Johnson
8. Barry Bonds
9. Craig Biggio
10. Tony Gwynn
11. Ivan Rodriguez
12. Larry Walker
13. Andy Pettite
14. Nomar Garciaparra
   7. OCF Posted: September 27, 2016 at 11:18 PM (#5308884)
My MMP ballot, spliced together from my written-in-1997 memo. More detail on the discussion thread.

1. Roger Clemens
2. Mike Piazza
3. Ken Griffey
4. Larry Walker
5. Frank Thomas
6. Pedro Martinez
7. Greg Maddux
8. Jeff Bagwell
9. Barry Bonds
10. Randy Johnson
11. Ivan Rodriguez
12. Craig Biggio
13. Nomar Garciaparra
14. Ray Lankford (just because I want to see him mentioned somewhere)
   8. bjhanke Posted: September 29, 2016 at 05:05 AM (#5309699)
Hi. This is Brock Hanke’s vote for 1997. As usual, I think that WAR has a couple of pitchers rated way too high, but what else is new? My method – listing the ordinals for Win Shares and WAR and then adding those ordinals together – did produce one oddity that I want to mention: There is reasonable consensus, better than usual, from the first to the 6th spots on the list. Then every claim to any real consensus just evaporates. Odd, but there. Apparently, Win Shares and WAR are in more or less agreement about the best six players in 1997, but not beyond that. OK, enough of this. I’m at the late end of convention season, which is why there are no comments; I have no time. So, here’s the list, without further ado (can’t help the Shakespeare reference; I have to moderate a panel on Fantasy in Shakespeare on Saturday).

1. Craig Biggio
2. Mike Piazza
3. Roger Clemens
4. Barry Bonds
5. Ken Griffey, Jr.
6. Larry Walker
7. Big Crank Thomas
8. Jeff Bagwell
9. Pedro Martinez
10. Greg Maddux
11. Raul Mondesi
12. Ivan Rodriguez
13. Edgar Martinez
14. Randy Johnson

And thanks to OCF for mentioning Ray Lankford, one of my favorite Cardinals of all time.
   9. caiman Posted: October 01, 2016 at 12:47 PM (#5311167)
Here is my RPA player values in terms of runs created above the median:

Note: DH is just another position. It is stupid to decrease the value of a DH based on a supposed defensive devaluation. The average player on defense AT ANY POSITION is equal on defense to a DH's defense. Both have ZERO value on defense. In other words, half the starting players at all the defensive positions carry a negative and half carry a positive value. You can only compare players at any position to players at that position. DH should never be evaluated based upon a supposed defensive comparison to players at other positions. Where would the Red Sox be without David Ortiz?

1. Frank Thomas 61.50 runs
2. Jeff Bagwell 54.38 runs
3. Craig Biggio 53.30 runs
4. Barry Bonds 50.77 runs
5. Mike Piazza 49.76 runs
6. Jim Thome 47.57 runs
7. Mark McGwire 46.69 runs
8. Larry Walker 45.67 runs
9. Edgar Martinez 42.94 runs
10. Roger Clemens 42.65 runs
11. Mo Vaughn 41.12 runs
12. Pedro Martinez 40.34 runs
13. David Justice 39.13 runs
14. Ken Griffey, jr. 37.84 runs
15. Greg Maddux 37.49 runs
16. Ray Lankford 35.83 runs
17. Manny Ramirez 34.88 runs
18. Tino Martinez 31.98 runs
19. Randy Johnson 30.96 runs
   10. bjhanke Posted: October 03, 2016 at 02:59 AM (#5311948)
Caiman, do you use Pete Palmer's Linear Weights? It's the only analytical system that I know of that places its zero point at the league average. Every other system has its zero point much much lower. WAR uses a Replacement Rate, which is it's zero point, of somewhere close to a winning percentage of .300. Bill James' Win Shares uses a zero point that is even lower (literally half the league average). The WAR zero point, much less Win Shares, is set so low that the only players who have seasons below them are cup of coffee guys or #3 backup shortstops or catchers. Well, the one thing that is certain about DH defense is that it can't very well be higher than the zero point (and there are people who argue that it should not be even that high). If you use WAR or WS' zero points, a DH will be among the very worst defenders in the league, because there are no real players above the zero point. DH is only "just another position" in the sense that a #3 backup catcher is "just another position." - Brock
   11. DL from MN Posted: October 03, 2016 at 09:50 AM (#5311996)
I certainly don't feel it is "stupid" to think any fielder has more of a defensive contribution than a strict DH. Try playing David Ortiz at catcher for an inning and see what happens.
   12. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 04, 2016 at 10:14 AM (#5312881)
Official 1997 MMP Ballot (no postseason bonuses):

1) Mike Piazza: Best ML player and catcher.
2) Craig Biggio: Best ML second baseman.
3) Tony Gwynn: Best ML right fielder.
4) Frank Thomas: Best AL player and ML first baseman.
5) Ken Griffey, Jr.: Best ML center fielder.
6) Roger Clemens: Best ML pitcher.
7) Jeff Bagwell: Best NL first baseman.
8) Larry Walker
9) Barry Bonds: Best ML left fielder.
10) Greg Maddux: Best NL pitcher.
11) Ivan Rodriguez: Best AL catcher.
12) Pedro Martinez
13) Nomar Garciaparra: Best ML shortstop.
14) Randy Johnson
   13. DL from MN Posted: October 05, 2016 at 09:58 AM (#5314280)
Ballot closes today. Voted recently, not yet this election

Michael Binkley
neilsen
Tubbs
   14. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: October 05, 2016 at 12:13 PM (#5314469)
Final ballot, no postseason credit but some small credit for playing for a Division-contender
1. Clemens amazing rebound season & one of the best ever
2. Piazza one of the most dominant seasons for a catcher
3. Griffey seemed poised to break Maris' record
4. Walker downgraded some due to Coors
5. Biggio grounded into ZERO double plays
6. Pedro 1.90 ERA in midst of Teh Steroid Era
7. Bonds being overshadowed by sluggers, almost time for head to grow & show them who's the best
8. Bagwell
9. Thomas
10.Maddux
11.Johnson
12.McGwire not so fast Griffey, a healthy Mac could break the record first
13.Garciaparra
14.Schilling 300+ K's
   15. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: October 05, 2016 at 01:44 PM (#5314605)
1997 MMP ballot

1. Roger Clemens
2. Mike Piazza - MMPosition Player and NL MMP
3. Larry Walker
4. Pedro Martinez - NL MMPitcher
5. Ken Griffey Jr. - AL MMPosition Player
6. Randy Johnson
7. Greg Maddux
8. Craig Biggio
9. Barry Bonds
10. Andy Pettitte
11. Jeff Bagwell
12. Frank Thomas
13. Curt Schilling
14. Kevin Brown

15-20. Edgar Martinez, John Smoltz, Raul Mondesi, Tom Glavine, Ray Langford, Nomar Garciaparra.
   16. DL from MN Posted: October 05, 2016 at 04:01 PM (#5314819)
Ballot closed

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