Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Thursday, December 08, 2016

Most Meritorious Player: 1999 Discussion

The Yankees swept the Braves in the World Series.

Player Name		SH WS		BBR WAR
Derek Jeter		33.7		8.0
Manny Ramirez		33.1		7.3
Roberto Alomar		33.2		7.4
Robin Ventura		28.3		6.7
Ivan Rodriguez		28.6		6.4
Jeff Bagwell		33.3		7.4
Nomar Garciaparra	31.4		6.6
Edgardo Alfonzo		29.1		6.0
Randy Velarde		24.2		7.0	
Carl Everett		23.2		5.8
Brian Giles		26.6		6.6
Chipper Jones		33.6		6.9
Shawn Green		26.6		6.4
Barry Larkin		23.6		5.1
Bobby Abreu		26.6		6.1
Omar Vizquel		22.5		6.0
Jason Giambi		29.6		5.9
Andruw Jones		28.3		7.1
Luis Gonzalez		26.7		6.4
Alex Rodriguez		24.4		4.7
Brady Anderson		23.1		5.9
Mike Piazza		21.7		4.3
Bernie Williams		32.5		5.4
Sammy Sosa		27.5		4.8
Jeff Cirillo		24.2		4.8
Craig Biggio		29.3		5.1
Mike Lieberthal		21.4		3.4
Ken Griffey Jr		29.0		4.9
Jay Bell		23.0		4.9
Mark McGwire		29.1		5.2
Scott Rolen		17.3		4.6
BJ Surhoff		19.2		5.1
Jason Kendall		15.9		4.1
Kevin Young		20.2		5.6
Juan Gonzalez		24.4		3.9
Rafael Palmeiro		28.9		5.2
Larry Walker		23.2		5.1
John Olerud		25.2		5.6
Vladimir Guerrero	25.1		4.4
Jim Thome		24.8		4.5
Mark Grudzielanek	15.1		3.6
Johnny Damon		17.5		5.4
Kenny Lofton		20.4		5.6
Mike Bordick		17.5		4.7
Magglio Ordonez		18.4		5.8
Edgar Martinez		25.3		4.9
Jermaine Dye		17.3		4.7

Pitcher
Pedro Martinez		27.0		9.7
Randy Johnson		26.9		8.8
Mike Hampton		25.6		7.8
Kevin Millwood		23.2		6.0
John Smoltz		17.4		5.3
Brad Radke		17.3		6.5
Kevin Brown		19.6		5.5
Jamie Moyer		16.0		6.7
Freddy Garcia		14.3		5.5
Omar Daal		16.5		5.2
Pedro Astacio		17.4		6.0
Jose Lima		19.6		3.8
Curt Schilling		14.8		4.8
David Cone		15.2		5.1
Shane Reynolds		15.8		3.5
Bartolo Colon		15.8		5.1
Mike Mussina		16.6		4.5
Mike Sirotka		13.7		4.4
Greg Maddux		17.4		3.7
Darren Oliver		12.4		4.0
John Halama		11.4		4.8
Jose Rosado		13.8		4.0
Bret Saberhagen		11.9		3.7
Orlando Hernandez	14.6		4.4

Keith Foulke		16.8		4.4
Billy Wagner		20.0		3.8
Derek Lowe		18.7		3.5
Mariano Rivera		17.9		3.5
Armando Benitez		17.1		3.3
John Rocker		15.5		2.1
Jeff Zimmerman		14.6		3.9

 

DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2016 at 01:27 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2016 at 01:49 PM (#5365056)
1999 Prelim

1) Pedro Martinez - very good season but doesn't compare to 1997 Clemens
2) Derek Jeter - no postseason bonuses yet, -0.8 FWAA
3) Randy Johnson
4) Mike Hampton - lots of great offensive performances may be the reason pitchers are sorting to the top
5) Manny Ramirez
6) Roberto Alomar
7) Robin Ventura - 2.7 FWAA, outstanding glove season
8) Kevin Millwood
9) Ivan Rodriguez - Rates 1.5 FWAA, would need an additional fielding win to top the position players, which is plausible
10) Jeff Bagwell - best bat
11) Nomar Garciaparra - negative 1.0 FWAA
12) Edgardo Alfonzo
13) Randy Velarde
14) Carl Everett
15) Brian Giles

16-20) Chipper Jones, Shawn Green, Barry Larkin, Bobby Abreu, Omar Vizquel, Jason Giambi
21-25) John Smoltz, Andruw Jones, Luis Gonzalez, Brad Radke, Alex Rodriguez

Standard deviation adjustment is 0.98 for the AL and 0.9 for the NL this year.
   2. bjhanke Posted: December 08, 2016 at 05:49 PM (#5365269)
I know this is early, but can I get the voting deadline? I have four other baseball projects that I do that have deadlines right around Xmas and New Year's, plus holiday stuff. Thanks, - Brock
   3. OCF Posted: December 08, 2016 at 07:50 PM (#5365320)
My 1999 memos spent relatively little time on the 1999 all-star team and more time on an all-decade team for the 1990’s. But here was the 1999 one-season all-star team:

AL:

C: Ivan Rodriguez
1B: Rafael Palmero
2B: Roberto Alomar
3B: Derek Jeter (out of position)
SS: Nomar Garciaparra
LF: Bernie Williams (out of position)
CF: Ken Griffey, Jr.
RF: Shawn Green
DH: Manny Ramirez (out of position)
SP1: Pedro Martinez
SP2: Brad Radke
SP3: Mike Mussina
SP4: Jamie Moyer
SP5: Bartolo Colon
Closer: Mariano Rivera
Reserve C: Jason Varitek
Reserve IF: Alex Rodriguez
Reserve IF: Randy Velarde
Reserve OF: Albert Belle
Reserve bat: Jason Giambi
Reserve bat: Edgar Martinez
Reserve P: Bret Saberhagen
Reserve P: David Cone
Reserve P: Keith Foulke
Reserve P: Derek Lowe

NL:

C: Mike Piazza
1B: Jeff Bagwell
2B: Edgardo Alfonso
3B: Chipper Jones
SS: Barry Larkin
LF: Vladimir Guerrero (out of position)
CF: Brian Giles
RF: Sammy Sosa
DH: Mark McGwire (out of position)
SP1: Randy Johnson
SP2: Kevin Millwood
SP3: Mike Hampton
SP4: Kevin Brown
SP5: John Smoltz
Closer: Billy Wagner
Reserve C: Mike Lieberthal
Reserve IF: Robin Ventura
Reserve IF: Rich Aurelia
Reserve OF: Andruw Jones
Reserve bat: Luis Gonzalez
Reserve bat: Bobby Abreu
Reserve P: Curt Schilling
Reserve P: Jose Lima
Reserve P: Armando Benitez
Reserve P: Pedro Astacio

I have a note that says the following; I can’t find any more detailed listing, so I don’t have rankings.

AL MVP: Derek Jeter
NL MVP: Chipper Jones
AL Cy Young: Pedro Martinez
NL Cy Young: Randy Johnson

Actually, I do have more detailed rankings for the CYA, but not the MVP:
In the NL, my Cy Young vote would be: 1. Randy Johnson. 2. Kevin Millwood. 3. Mike Hampton. 4. Kevin Brown. 5. Billy Wagner.
In the AL, my Cy Young vote would be: 1. Martinez. 2. Radke. 3. Rivera. 4. Foulke. 5. Mussina.

I also had a note that if you made me pick an AL 3B, I’d go with Joe Randa.
   4. OCF Posted: December 08, 2016 at 07:53 PM (#5365321)
Now, what about that all-decade team? I’ve got it, one 25-man roster, with the starters arranged in a batting order. I was always balancing players who only played half the decade at a higher level versus those who played the whole decade at a lower level; I don’t think I got any real consistency with that. I also don’t think I adequately adjusted for the fact that the late 90s were a much higher offense time than the early 90s. The team, starting with the batting order:

1. Craig Biggio, 3B (out of position)
2. Roberto Alomar, 2B
3. Barry Bonds, RF (out of position)
4. Frank Thomas, DH
5. Mark McGwire, 1B
6. Ken Griffey, Jr., CF
7. Mike Piazza, C
8. Albert Belle, LF
9. Barry Larkin, SS

Greg Maddux, SP
Roger Clemens, SP
Randy Johnson, SP
Pedro Martinez, SP
Tom Glavine, SP
John Wetteland, Closer

Reserves:

Ivan Rodriguez, C
Jeff Bagwell, 1B
Cal Ripken, Jr., IF
Rickey Henderson, OF/PH/PR
Tony Gwynn, OF/PH
Edgar Martinez, DH/PH
David Cone, P
Kevin Brown, P
John Smoltz, P
Trevor Hoffman, RP

Then I have a note that says that the MVP of the decade is Barry Bonds and the Pitcher of the Decade is Greg Maddux. I don’t seem to have any more rankings than that.

A quote:

We’ve got 25 players here. How many of them belong or will belong in the Hall of Fame? At least 20 of them. Realistically (except for the relief pitchers), you’ve got to ask “Why not?” Of the 8 starting pitchers, 7 of them have won Cy Young awards, in some cases multiple awards. The one exception to that, Kevin Brown, should have won a Cy Young award in 1996. Among my 9 regulars, the worst Hall of Fame case is probably Belle’s, and Bill James estimates that Belle has a 90% chance to hit 500 career home runs and an 8% chance to hit 700 career home runs. (In this same set of projections, Bill James estimates an 87% chance that some active player will hit 756 home runs, with the best individual chances belonging to McGwire at 48%, Griffey at 44%, Sosa at 35%, Juan Gonzalez at 15% and Alex Rodriguez at 11%.)


Of course, I was not anticipating that several of these players would be steroid-blackballed.
   5. DL from MN Posted: December 08, 2016 at 09:47 PM (#5365355)
Brock - always the first Wednesday of the month. 1/4/2017
   6. DL from MN Posted: December 09, 2016 at 05:04 PM (#5365919)
Tim Hudson has an argument for minor league credit this year with 67 stellar IP in AA and AAA before his terrific debut.
   7. OCF Posted: December 09, 2016 at 08:58 PM (#5366008)
You know what name doesn't appear on the fairly extensive lists placed at the top of this thread? Barry Bonds. Yeah, he was hurt some; yeah, his games and PA were the fewest of his career so far; yeah, his OPS+ was the lowest since his offensive breakout nearly a decade earlier and his WAR the lowest since his rookie year. It's just that without his name there there's something kind of unfamiliar about that listing.

It wouldn't have been crazy to think this: he's been great for a long time, one of the greatest - but now it's all winding down. It wouldn't have been crazy, but ...
   8. MrC. Posted: December 11, 2016 at 05:58 PM (#5366592)
1999 NL All Star team

C Mike Piazza Not the same dominance as previous year, but still solid enough offense to be all star. jason Kendall had best rate stats, but played only 1/2 season.
1B Mark McGwire and Jeff Bagwell had essentially the same offensive numbers, but McGwire's better defensive numbers, give him the edge as all star.
2B jay Bell's offensive advantage over Edgardo Alfonso was big enough to overcome his defensive shortcomings.
3B Chipper Jones was by far the best offensive 3B, but his -25 defensive runs made the competition between Jones and Ventura closer than I would have thought.
SS Barry Larkin No one else even in the conversation.

The outfielder's, when not switching outfield positions,
LF Larry Walker Best hitting numbers in most competitive position In NL. Bobby Abreu, Sammy Sosa and Vladimir Guerrero all may be worthy of an all star position,
CF Brian Giles best position player in the NL. carl Everett runnerup
RF Luis Gonzalez Solid season, but only the 8th best season for an outfielder.

I would use Abreu out of position as the RF.

SP Randy Johnson A dominant season in a high offense environment,
SP Mike Hampton Superior hitting numbers Bring him closer to Johnson than one would expect
SP Kevin Millwood
SP Kevin Brown
SP John Smoltz despite being a little light on innings, still rates as all star. Another pitcher whose hitting helps improve his rating.

RP Armando Benitez
RP Mike Remlinger

Closer Billy Wagner

AL all stars in a few days,

   9. OCF Posted: December 11, 2016 at 11:47 PM (#5366697)
Am I still an HoM voter? I guess so. I'm paying gradually less attention over the years, but I can still cobble together a ballot. The #1 principle is stare decisis - I'll start with the order from my last ballot, and not revisit any of those relative rankings. That means that for those who have been on the ballot and may now be on the "must comment" list - yes, I've seen them, and I've considered their cases, and I've commented in the past. I'm not moving them up or down.

Numbers with the pitchers are RA+ equivalent record with a big years bonus in brackets. New starting pitchers? Carpenter had three genuinely big years and a few other good years, but he’s too far short on career value to be worth considering all that seriously.

The toy system I’m playing with (basically WAR with some big year bonuses) winds up putting Manny Ramirez very close to Sosa and Vlad Guerrero very close to Bobby Bonds, with Sheffield in between the two clusters - but Sheffield is elected.. But I may be making too much of Sosa’s 2001 season - that is, I may be overdoing the big year bonus. And the system likes Lofton better than any of the corner outfielders, and I’m a little skeptical of that.

Posada didn’t look all that close.

1. Ivan Rodriguez I see him as a prime candidate - a lot years of 6-7 WAR strung together back to back. That puts him pretty far up on the list of catchers.

2. Manny Ramirez A hitter.

3. Jim Edmonds I'm also not sure of the right order between Edmonds and Sosa - I see them as very close.

4. Sammy Sosa A peak candidate. Was a wild swinger in the early part of his career, and he declined quickly once his peak was over. But that peak is enough to get him here.

5. Kenny Lofton OK, I've got a system for aggregating WAR with peak bonuses, and it likes Lofton better than it likes Edmonds. So what's going on? A significant part of it is that Lofton's peak lands right on the 1994-1995 strike seasons, and the system is projecting full seasons for Lofton for those - in particular a monster 1994 for him. Do I really think he should be ahead of Edmonds? Umm, no. So some hand adjustments have been made.

6. Luis Tiant 224-164 [35] Was #1 on my 2012 ballot.

7. Vic Willis 248-196 [44]

8. Frank Chance Betraying my career voter leanings. Didn't play much, but awfully good when he did play, and the best 1B of his own time. My new system gives him as much value above average as Palmiero.

9. Sal Bando

10. Buddy Bell

11. John Olerud

12. Bobby Bonds

13. Fred McGriff

14. Dale Murphy

15. Bob Elliott Resurfacing a favorite of my old system.

Others close to the ballot.

C: Gene Tenace
1B: Fred McGriff, Norm Cash, Orlando Cepeda (Note: for many previous years, I have not particularly seen the case for Ben Taylor. And the best 1B of the teens is still probably Sisler.)
2B: Jeff Kent, Larry Doyle
3B: Robin Ventura
SS: Phil Rizzuto
Corner OF: Rusty Staub, Jack Clark, Frank Howard, Ken Singleton.
CF: Cesar Cedeno, Hugh Duffy, George Van Haltren, Jimmy Ryan. I've supported the 1890's guys (particularly Van Haltren) for a long time, but I'm not all that sure any more that I'd take any of them over Cedeno and Murphy.
P: Lefty Gomez, Bucky Walters, Kevin Appier, Lon Warnecki, Jerry Koosman, Tommy Bridges, Ed Cicotte, Wilbur Cooper, Tommy John, Urban Shocker.
   10. ThickieDon Posted: December 13, 2016 at 07:40 AM (#5367390)
Bonds played in 102 games in 1999.

He hit 34 home runs, at least a 50 homer pace.

Similar ISO to his 1993 season.

Not much decline.
   11. ThickieDon Posted: December 13, 2016 at 07:41 AM (#5367391)
To be fair, he did put up his worst fielding numbers.
   12. ThickieDon Posted: December 13, 2016 at 10:47 AM (#5367482)
Still trying to narrow down the last two slots.

Luis Gonzalez, Bobby Abreu, Ivan Rodriguez, Mike Mussina, Sammy Sosa, Edgardo Alfonzo, Mike Hampton?

Tier 0 (G.O.A.T.)

1. Pedro Martinez - 313 K's and 37 BB; 1.39 FIP; best season of all-time

Tier 1

2. Derek Jeter - post-season bonus bumps him above Manny and Bagwell for top position player
3. Randy Johnson - 364 K's in 271 excellent innings; 12 CGs and 2 SHO
4. Jeff Bagwell - most offensive runs in MLB; 30 steals, too
5. Manny Ramirez - highest wRC+ in MLB
6. Chipper Jones - monster offense from 3B (65.3 offensive runs second-best all-time behind 1953 Al Rosen); solid base-running

Tier 2

7. Roberto Alomar - a top 50 all-time 2B season; .323/.422/.533 line pretty impressive
8. Brian Giles - overlooked gem; in top 10 for most offensive categories; played mostly CF
9. Nomar Garciaparra - 7th best slugging percentage ever for a SS

Tier 3

10. Mark McGwire - 65 HR and massive offense but horrible D brings him down
11. Robin Ventura - solid offense and HOF-level defense at 3B
12. Andruw Jones - another one of the best CF seasons of all time; offense just OK for a juiced ball era season
13. Larry Walker - somewhat one-dimensional in 1999; also knocked down a few pegs by Coors and injuries
   13. MrC. Posted: December 13, 2016 at 06:54 PM (#5367901)
AL All Star Team

C Ivan Rodriguez Solid offense, +20 Defense. No one really close. Runner up Brad Ausmus
1B Jim Thome Jason Giambi had a slightly better offensive year, but Thome was an average fielder whereas Giambi was a -14.
2B Robbie Alomar Outstanding offense and a +8 defense. Randy Velarde had a surprisingly good year to end up as runner up at 2B
3B Tony Fernandez Best of a rather pedestrian group. twenty-two year old Troy Glaus was runner up
SS Nomar Garciaparra Derek Jeter was 10 runs better offensively than Garciaparra, but his -20 defense rating left in second player.
RF Manny Ramirez Best offense in the AL and was still a +6 on defense.
CF Bernie Williams
LF Rusty Greer Very good offense, slightly below average on defense.
DH Raael Palmeiro Second best offense in the AL

Two Right fielders: Shawn Green (better offense) and Jermaine Dye (great defense) were both better as corner outfielders than Greer. My preference would be to use Shawn Green as the all star LF.

SP Pedro Martinez Amazing. In a league where the run environment was 5.3 runs/9, his RAA was 2,35.
SP Jamie Moyer
SP Brad Radke
SP Freddie Garcia
SP Bartolo Colon

relievers
Keith Foulke
Jeff Zimmerman
Derek Lowe

   14. Fridas Boss Posted: December 14, 2016 at 08:45 AM (#5368019)
When does the annual BBTF Mock Hall of Fame ballot go up? A holiday tradition like eggnog and mistletoe..
   15. DL from MN Posted: December 14, 2016 at 09:58 AM (#5368062)
I can run mock-HoF after HoM balloting ends
   16. Fridas Boss Posted: December 14, 2016 at 10:53 AM (#5368124)
TYVM
   17. MrC. Posted: December 16, 2016 at 12:35 PM (#5369615)
1999 Prelim Ballot

1. Pedro Martinez 9.55 WARR An amazing season; especially considering the run scoring environment of the tome.
2. Randy Johnson 8.70 WARR
3. Mike Hampton 8.66 WARR rates several spots higher because of hitting ability
4. Manny Ramirez 8.29 WARR
5. Robbie Alomar 7.82 WARR
6. Brian Giles 6.49 WARR
7. Bernie Williams 6.45 WARR
8. Mark McGwire 6.36 WARR
9. Jeff Bagwell 6.24 WARR
10. Kevin Millwood 6.24 WARR
11. Rafael Palmiero 6.18 WARR
12. Nomar Garciaparra 6.16 WARR
13. jamie Moyer 6.03 WARR
14. Chipper Jones 5.95 WARR
15. Derek Jeter 5.90 WARR

Rest of the top 20

16. Shawn Green
17. Larry Walker
18. Kevin Brown
19. Randy Velarde
20. Ivan Roriguez

I did a very rough translation of Hudson's minor league numbers and he came out just below the top 20. If I can find a good explanation of how to do MLEs for pitchers, I will try it again for the final ballot.
   18. Chris Fluit Posted: December 18, 2016 at 10:13 AM (#5370320)
1999 Prelim Ballot

1. Pedro Martinez, P, Boston Red Sox: one of the greatest seasons of all-time- 243 ERA+ plus top ten in IP
2. Randy Johnson, P, Arizona Diamondbacks: 184 ERA+ to go with MLB leading 271 IP
3. Chipper Jones, 3B, Atlanta Braves: the year's best position player with a 169 OPS+ and 165 Runs Created
4. Derek Jeter, SS, New York Yankees: best position player in the AL; 4th in AL in OPS+ as a SS
5. Manny Ramirez, RF, Cleveland Indians: 174 OPS+ and 158 RC lead the AL
6. Jeff Bagwell, 1B, Houston Astros
7. Mark McGwire, 1B, St. Louis Cardinals: poor defense and (-9 fielding) and baserunning (-4) drops Big Mac below Bagwell
8. Nomar Garciaparra, SS, Boston Red Sox: 5th in AL in OPS+ but only 135 games played separates him from Jeter above
9. Roberto Alomar, 2B, Cleveland Indians: great all-around play; just outside the top ten in OPS+ (140) while adding +5 baserunning and +8 defense from the keystone
10. Rafael Palmeiro, DH, Texas Rangers: 2nd in AL OPS+ (160) and 3rd in RC (152)
11. Kevin Millwood, P, Atlanta Braves: the fourth man in the Braves rotation has the best season
12. Larry Walker, RF, Colorado Rockies
13. Brian Giles, RF, Pittsburgh Pirates: Walker and Giles are essentially tied
14. Mike Hampton, P, Houston Astros: great combo of rate (155 ERA+) and bulk (239 IP)
15. Ivan Rodriguez, C, Texas Rangers: the writers' MVP sneaks onto the bottom of my ballot

16. Robin Ventura, 3B, New York Mets
17. Kevin Brown, P, Los Angeles Dodgers
18. Bobby Abreu, RF, Philadelphia Phillies
19. Luis Gonzalez, RF, Arizona Diamondbacks
20. Edgardo Alfonzo, 2B, New York Mets
21. Jason Giambi, 1B, Oakland Athletics
22. Sammy Sosa, RF, Chicago Cubs
23. Shawn Green, RF, Toronto Blue Jays
24. Edgar Martinez, DH, Seattle Mariners
25. Bernie Williams, CF, New York Yankees

Edit: Forgot to look at NL relievers. Billy Wagner is my top reliever (287 ERA+ in 74 IP) and although that's not good enough for this year's ballot, he would slot in at 24th just ahead of Edgar Martinez.
   19. OCF Posted: December 18, 2016 at 10:31 PM (#5370538)
Tier 0 (G.O.A.T.)

1. Pedro Martinez - 313 K's and 37 BB; 1.39 FIP; best season of all-time

While I'm happy to acknowledge that it was a great season, I'm quite a bit more skeptical of making G.O.A.T. claims for it.

The issue starts with IP. Martinez, like all pitchers of his time, pitched many fewer innings in a season than did the top pitchers of the 60's and 70's. That happened because by the 1990's, starting pitchers very seldom pitched complete games; they were usually lifted after about the 7th in favor of defined-role relief specialists. Of course you can argue that that was a condition of the times and he should be compared to his contemporaries. But I have also noticed that the statistics of starting pitchers started to decentralize sharply just as their workloads decreased.

One way to see this is to look for starting pitchers with extreme ERA+, say > 190. How common are those? The established tendency has (somewhat counterintuitively) been that they are more common in low-offense eras. You'll find a lot of super ERA+ in the deadball era, some of them by pitchers whose names you may not immediately recognize. But in the high-scoring late 20's and 30's, they're quite rare (except for Lefty Grove). But they pick up again in the "little deadball" 60's. That had been the pattern - but such super seasonal ERA+ then got a lot more common in the high-offense 90's. And that has to have a different cause - and the different cause is the reduced workload. That made it easier to record an extreme ERA+, or any other rate statistic you care to name.

One other thing specific to Martinez's 1999: yes, he lapped the field of other AL pitchers by a ludicrous margin in many measurements. But examining the years around it tends to lead one to the idea that the rest of the league's top pitchers were having a collective bad year. Certainly I can't see voting for any other AL starting pitcher on the MMP ballot. It's a little like Babe Ruth lapping the field in 1920-1921; partly that's about the greatness of Ruth, but it's also partly about what the rest of the league wasn't doing yet.

Because I continue to take IP into account, I happen to think that it is essentially impossible for any pitcher under current usage to measure up to Gooden '85 or Gibson '68. Is that unfair? If you try to assign G.O.A.T. value to Martinez 1999 and then scale that to what it would mean for a typical 2nd or 3rd starter, you would arrive at giving more value to all pitchers than was true 20 or 30 years earlier.

I don't yet know how I'm going to splice my own 1999 memo together into an MMP ballot - but I will note that in 1999, I called Jeter (and not Martinez) the AL MVP.
   20. OCF Posted: December 18, 2016 at 11:28 PM (#5370545)
A quote from MrC.:
3B Chipper Jones was by far the best offensive 3B, but his -25 defensive runs made the competition between Jones and Ventura closer than I would have thought.

Since placing Chipper accurately will be of considerable importance in this election, what do people think?

Was Chipper really an awful defensive 3B? Or were his low RF and other poor defensive measures more the result of some statistical illusion? Maybe Glavine and other Brave pitchers spent so much time pitching away that they changed the distribution of GB? I'd like to hear the various defensive experts around here weigh in on this.

(Side note to MrC., about the post I'm quoting: did you perhaps reverse LF and RF?)
   21. OCF Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:12 AM (#5370554)
I went looking to see if we have a Chipper Jones HoM thread. We don't, because he's not eligible until 2018. But it seems that such a thread should be posted soon, and that the issue of how to evaluate his fielding will have to be a topic of conversation there.
   22. MrC. Posted: December 19, 2016 at 11:13 AM (#5370671)
OCF

Yes, on the NL All Star team, it seems, I reversed LF and RF on my post.

I agree with OCF that defensive numbers can have a major effect on a person's rating (Chipper Jones and Derek Jeter both are an example of this with my ballot for 1999). But I am certainly not a defensive expert; I only use what others have done to help with my thinking.

Like OCF, I encourage those experts to give their thoughts on Larry Wayne Jone's fielding abilities.



   23. MrC. Posted: December 19, 2016 at 11:14 AM (#5370672)
I mean "Larry Wayne Jones' fielding abilities.
   24. DL from MN Posted: December 19, 2016 at 11:36 AM (#5370696)
Chipper Jones v Robin Ventura is a great contrast for this ballot
   25. dlf Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:16 PM (#5370748)
Was Chipper really an awful defensive 3B? Or were his low RF and other poor defensive measures more the result of some statistical illusion? Maybe Glavine and other Brave pitchers spent so much time pitching away that they changed the distribution of GB? I'd like to hear the various defensive experts around here weigh in on this.


FWIW, in the middle of Jones' career, he was moved to LF for two seasons while the Braves played Vinny Castilla at third. Castilla's rField the year before going to ATL was +6 as was the year after he left. The two years in Atlanta, he was +2.
   26. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 02:23 PM (#5372850)
Chipper Jones has a thread now
   27. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 03:13 PM (#5372941)
1999 NLDS Mets 3 Diamondbacks 1
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E  
Edgardo Alfonzo  4  16  6  4  1  0  3  6  3  2  .250  .368  .875  1.243  0  0  0  
John Olerud  4  16  3  7  0  0  1  6  3  2  .438  .526  .625  1.151  0  0  0
Mike Piazza  2  9  0  2  0  0  0  0  0  4  .222  .222  .222  .444  0  0  0
Robin Ventura  4  14  1  3  2  0  0  1  4  2  .214  .389  .357  .746  0  0  0

Jay Bell  4  14  3  4  1  0  0  3  1  0  .286  .353  .357  .710  0  1  1
Luis Gonzalez  4  10  3  2  1  0  1  2  5  1  .200  .500  .600  1.100  0  0  0

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Armando Benitez  2  0  0.00  0  0  0  0  2.1  2  0  0  1  2  1.286

Randy Johnson  1  1  7.56  0  1  0  0  8.1  8  7  7  3  11  1.320
Omar Daal  1  1  6.75  0  1  0  0  4.0  6  3  3  3  4  2.250
   28. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 03:47 PM (#5372996)
1999 NLDS Braves 3 Astros 1
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Andruw Jones  4  18  1  4  1  0  0  2  1  3  .222  .263  .278  .541  0  0  0
Chipper Jones  4  13  2  3  0  0  0  1  5  2  .231  .421  .231  .652  0  0  1

Jeff Bagwell  4  13  3  2  0  0  0  0  5  4  .154  .421  .154  .575  0  0  0
Craig Biggio  4  19  1  2  0  0  0  0  1  5  .105  .150  .105  .255  0  0  0
Carl Everett  4  15  2  2  0  0  0  1  2  8  .133  .263  .133  .396  1  0  0

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Tom Glavine  1  1  3.00  0  0  0  0  6.0  5  2  2  3  6  1.333
Greg Maddux  2  1  2.57  0  1  0  0  7.0  10  2  2  5  5  2.143  
Kevin Millwood  2  1  0.90  1  0  1  1  10.0  1  1  1  0  9  0.100
John Rocker  2  0  0.00  1  0  1  0  3.1  0  0  0  2  5  0.600  
John Smoltz  1  1  5.14  1  0  0  0  7.0  6  4  4  3  3  1.286  

Mike Hampton  1  1  3.86  0  0  0  0  7.0  6  3  3  1  9  1.000  
Jose Lima  1  1  5.40  0  1  0  0  6.2  9  4  4  2  4  1.650  
Shane Reynolds  2  2  4.09  1  1  0  0  11.0  16  5  5  3  5  1.727
   29. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 03:56 PM (#5373011)
1999 ALDS Yankees 3 Rangers 0
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Derek Jeter  3  11  3  5  1  1  0  0  2  3  .455  .538  .727  1.266  0  0  0
Bernie Williams  3  11  2  4  1  0  1  6  1  2  .364  .462  .727  1.189  0  0  0

Juan Gonzalez  3  11  1  2  0  0  1  1  1  3  .182  .250  .455  .705  0  0  0
Rafael Palmeiro  3  11  0  3  0  0  0  0  1  1  .273  .333  .273  .606  0  0  
Ivan Rodriguez  3  12  0  3  1  0  0  0  0  2  .250  .250  .333  .583  1  0  0

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Roger Clemens  1  1  0.00  1  0  0  0  7.0  3  0  0  2  2  0.714
Mariano Rivera  2  0  0.00  0  0  2  0  3.0  1  0  0  0  3  0.333

Jeff Zimmerman  1  0  0.00  0  0  0  0  1.0  1  0  0  0  1  1.000
   30. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 04:07 PM (#5373035)
1999 ALDS Red Sox 3 Indians 2
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Nomar Garciaparra  4  12  6  5  2  0  2  4  3  3  .417  .563  1.083  1.646  0  0  0

Roberto Alomar  5  19  4  7  4  0  0  3  2  3  .368  .409  .579  .988  2  0  1
Kenny Lofton  5  16  5  2  1  0  0  1  5  6  .125  .333  .188  .521  2  0  1
Manny Ramirez  5  18  5  1  1  0  0  1  4  8  .056  .261  .111  .372  0  0  0
Jim Thome  5  17  7  6  0  0  4  10  4  5  .353  .476  1.059  1.535  0  0  0
Omar Vizquel  5  21  3  5  1  1  0  3  2  3  .238  .304  .381  .685  0  0  0

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Derek Lowe  3  0  4.32  1  1  0  0  8.1  6  7  4  1  7  0.840
Pedro Martinez  2  1  0.00  1  0  0  0  10.0  3  0  0  4  11  0.700
Bret Saberhagen  2  2  27.00  0  1  0  0  3.2  9  11  11  4  2  3.545

Bartolo Colon  2  2  9.00  0  1  0  0  9.0  11  9  9  4  12  1.667
   31. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 04:13 PM (#5373040)
NLCS Braves 4 Mets 2
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Andruw Jones  6  23  5  5  0  0  0  1  4  3  .217  .333  .217  .551  0  1  0
Chipper Jones  6  19  3  5  2  0  0  1  9  7  .263  .517  .368  .886  3  0  2

Edgardo Alfonzo  6  27  2  6  4  0  0  1  1  9  .222  .250  .370  .620  0  0  1
John Olerud  6  27  4  8  0  0  2  6  2  3  .296  .345  .519  .863  0  0  2
Mike Piazza  6  24  1  4  0  0  1  4  1  6  .167  .192  .292  .484  0  0  3
Robin Ventura  6  25  2  3  1  0  0  1  2  5  .120  .185  .160  .345  0  0  0

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Tom Glavine  1  1  0.00  1  0  0  0  7.0  7  0  0  1  8  1.143
Greg Maddux  2  2  1.93  1  0  0  0  14.0  12  3  3  1  7  0.929
Kevin Millwood  2  2  3.55  1  0  0  0  12.2  13  6  5  1  9  1.105
John Rocker  6  0  0.00  0  0  2  0  6.2  3  2  0  2  9  0.750
John Smoltz  3  1  6.23  0  0  1  0  8.2  8  6  6  0  8  0.923

Armando Benitez  5  0  1.35  0  0  1  0  6.2  3  1  1  2  9  0.750
   32. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 04:32 PM (#5373064)
1999 ALCS Yankees 4 Red Sox 1
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Derek Jeter  5  20  3  7  1  0  1  3  2  3  .350  .409  .550  .959  0  0  2
Bernie Williams  5  20  3  5  1  0  1  2  2  5  .250  .318  .450  .768  1  0  0

Nomar Garciaparra  5  20  2  8  2  0  2  5  2  2  .400  .455  .800  1.255  1  0  4

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP  
Roger Clemens  1  1  22.50  0  1  0  0  2.0  6  5  5  2  2  4.000
David Cone  1  1  2.57  1  0  0  0  7.0  7  2  2  3  9  1.429
Mariano Rivera  3  0  0.00  1  0  2  0  4.2  5  0  0  0  3  1.071

Derek Lowe  3  0  1.42  0  0  0  0  6.1  6  3  1  2  7  1.263
Pedro Martinez  1  1  0.00  1  0  0  0  7.0  2  0  0  2  12  0.571
Bret Saberhagen  1  1  1.50  0  1  0  0  6.0  5  3  1  1  5  1.000
   33. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 04:45 PM (#5373071)
1999 World Series Yankees 4 Braves 0
Player Name  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Derek Jeter  4  17  4  6  1  0  0  1  1  3  .353  .389  .412  .801  3  1  0  
Bernie Williams  4  13  2  3  0  0  0  0  4  2  .231  .412  .231  .643  1  0  0

Andruw Jones  4  13  1  1  0  0  0  0  1  3  .077  .143  .077  .220  0  0  0
Chipper Jones  4  13  2  3  0  0  1  2  4  2  .231  .412  .462  .873  0  1  0

Pitcher Name  G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
Roger Clemens  1  1  1.17  1  0  0  0  7.2  4  1  1  2  4  0.783
David Cone  1  1  0.00  1  0  0  0  7.0  1  0  0  5  4  0.857
Mariano Rivera  3  0  0.00  1  0  2  0  4.2  3  0  0  1  3  0.857

Tom Glavine  1  1  5.14  0  0  0  0  7.0  7  5  4  0  3  1.000
Greg Maddux  1  1  2.57  0  1  0  0  7.0  5  4  2  3  5  1.14
Kevin Millwood  1  1  18.00  0  1  0  0  2.0  8  5  4  2  2  5.000
John Rocker  2  0  0.00  0  0  0  0  3.0  2  0  0  2  4  1.333
John Smoltz  1  1  3.86  0  1  0  0  7.0  6  3  3  3  11  1.286
   34. DL from MN Posted: December 22, 2016 at 04:56 PM (#5373077)
Jeter was terrific but Pedro was better so he can't gain any ground on my ballot. Chipper and Millwood move up. Alomar and Alfonzo and Nomar move up.
   35. DL from MN Posted: January 01, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5376056)
Ballot should end this Wednesday. I am having trouble posting in the ballot thread. If you have a ballot and want it copied over feel free to post here.
   36. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: January 03, 2017 at 11:05 PM (#5377085)
No postseason bonus but some small credit for playing for a Division-contender

1. Pedro Martinez--amazing season, one of the best ever for a pitcher. It's hard to believe he never won an actual MVP
2. Jeter--also hard to believe he never won an MVP
3. Pudge Rodriguez--catcher bonus
4. Chipper Jones--edges out Bagwell
5. Bagwell
6. Roberto Alomar
7. Manny Ramirez--RBIs! It's kinda surprising no one came close to challenging Hack Wilson's RBI record or Earl Webb's doubles record during the Steroid Era
8. Randy Johnson--I was a big fan of Mike Hampton in '99 but myself & the CY voters correctly valued Unit's ERA, SOs, & IP over Hamptons excellent 22-4 record
9. Garciaparra--too bad he didn't maintain this HOF level play
10.Ventura--slick glove
11.Hampton
12.McGwire--hard to believe Big Mac hits 60+ bombs & barely makes the top 15, the game was chock full of 40 HR/400 OBP guys. Sosa was a near miss but his OBP wasn't anything special & his fielding was subpar
13.Larry Walker--easy top 5 if not for injuries
14.Giles
15.Giambi

Honorable mention--Randy Velarde-this was his best season-when the Mitchell Report came out, the name that I was most disappointed to see was Velarde's
   37. Yardape Posted: January 04, 2017 at 12:54 AM (#5377112)
Based mostly on gWar, small postseason credit when applicable.

1. Pedro Martinez - The peak season from one of the all-time great peak pitchers. Eye-popping.
2. Randy Johnson - Not quite as amazing as Martinez, but part of a really dominant run by Johnson.
3. Derek Jeter - Probably his best season. Best position player in MLB.
4. Mike Hampton - Best season by a mortal pitcher?
5. Roberto Alomar - Best 2B
6. Nomar Garciaparra
7. Jeff Bagwell
8. Chipper Jones - Best 3B
9. Manny Ramirez
10. Randy Velarde
11. Edgardo Alfonzo - Two career seasons by two good but not great 2B.
12. Andruw Jones
13. Jamie Moyer - It's always fun to see Moyer on a ballot.
14. Kevin Millwood - The Braves really did have some amazing pitching in the 90s.
15. Robin Ventura

Honorable mention: Luis Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez (best C), Brian Giles.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Guts
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.7745 seconds
60 querie(s) executed