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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Wednesday, May 26, 2004

Negro Leaguers’ Home Page

Links to commentary on Negro League stars:

Newt Allen

Sam Bankhead

John Beckwith (elected in 1957)

Cool Papa Bell

Bob Boyd

Chet Brewer

Dave Brown

Ray Brown (elected in 1955)

Willard Brown

Bill Byrd

Pelayo Chacon

Oscar Charleston (elected in 1943)

Andy Cooper

Ray Dandridge

Leon Day

Bingo DeMoss

Martin Dihigo (elected in 1950)

John Donaldson

Luke Easter

Bobby Estalella

Rube Foster (elected 1932)

Willie Foster (elected in 1945)

Josh Gibson (elected in 1952)

Frank Grant (elected 1926)

Pete Hill (elected 1927)

Sammy T. Hughes

Monte Irvin (elected in 1963)

Sam Jethroe

Heavy Johnson

Home Run Johnson (elected 1925)

Judy Johnson

Slim Jones

Buck Leonard (elected in 1955)

John Henry Lloyd (elected 1935)

Dick Lundy

Jimmy Lyons

Biz Mackey

David Malarcher

Max Manning

Oliver Marcelle

Leroy Matlock

José Méndez

Bill Monroe

Dobie Moore

Diomedes Olivo

Alejandro Oms

Buck O’Neill

Satchel Paige

Bruce Petway

Spottswood Poles

Double Duty Radcliffe

Cannonball Dick Redding

Bullet Rogan (elected 1940)

Louis Santop (elected in 1932)

George Scales

George Shively

Chino Smith

Hilton Smith

Turkey Stearnes (elected in 1946)

Mule Suttles (elected in 1956)

Ben Taylor

Clint Thomas

Jules Thomas

Cristóbal Torriente (elected in 1937)

Quincy Trouppe

Willie Wells (elected in 1954)

Chaney White

Sol White

Marvin Williams

Smokey Joe Williams (elected in 1936)

Jud Wilson (elected in 1948)

Nip Winters

Bill Wright

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 26, 2004 at 07:46 AM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 26, 2004 at 08:11 AM (#644984)
Moving this on the radar of 'hot topics' . . .
   2. sunnyday2 Posted: May 26, 2004 at 01:38 PM (#645067)
Great idea. I would hope that Chris and Joe can team up to link certain info from the old Negro League threads and or the new eligibility lists etc. There are a lot of Negro Leaguers already eligible (Jap Payne, Walter Ball, etc. etc.) about whom little is known, but at least their names should be easily accessible somewhere just to stimulate everybody's curiosity. Thanks to Joe and Chris for helping to bring all these guys into the discussion.
   3. KJOK Posted: May 26, 2004 at 04:42 PM (#645372)
Frank Wickware is eligible also.

Spotwood Poles and Jimmie Lyons may be eligible in 1929?
   4. mbd1mbd1 Posted: May 27, 2004 at 04:02 PM (#647513)
Here's an interesting link I found at Sportsfilter. It's an aggregation of information on umpires in the Negro Leagues. While not exactly relevant to the HoM, I thought some might find it interesting.

Negro League umpires
   5. DanG Posted: May 27, 2004 at 05:27 PM (#647622)
KJOK,

Yes, Wickware is on the list for 1927. Poles and Bruce Petway come on in 1929. Lyons is new in 1931.

Check the new eligibles thread for Chris Cobb's complete list.
   6. OCF Posted: June 08, 2004 at 10:19 PM (#664945)
It's clear that there aren't very many electable new white candidates coming forth for the next several elections, and that we could be electing some other Negro League players before 1934. As one who doesn't feel like he has enough information to go on yet, could we start a few new threads off of this page, say for Poles, Petway, Santop, Mendez, and maybe collectively for the pitchers?
   7. TomH Posted: June 09, 2004 at 03:13 PM (#666497)
Glancing at the various 'experts' opinions, Bruce Petway seems to be clearly NOT one of the three best black league catchers, and consistently ranked behind his near-contemporary Louis Santop. While the NBJHA calls him a stellar defensive catcher, I can find no voice that suggests we honor Petway. Especially if we have trouble electing Bresnahan and Schang.
   8. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 11, 2004 at 04:38 AM (#670992)
I'll be disappointed if we have trouble electing Schang. Catchers with a heavily OBP laden 117 OPS+ don't grow on trees. Schang caught about 500 more games (50%) more than Bresnahan too.

I'll get on making the new links for the players you suggested OCF.
   9. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 11, 2004 at 04:46 AM (#671010)
OCF (or Chris) if you give me a list of pitchers, I'll make threads for them individually . . .
   10. KJOK Posted: July 03, 2004 at 10:43 PM (#715231)
Rankings of Best Negro League Players, 1999 
By The SABR Office 


Rk  Player                   Votes       %
1 Paige, Satchel         85  100.0%
1 Leonard, Buck          85  100.0%
3 Bell, Cool Papa        84  98.8%
4 Charleston, Oscar      82  96.5%
5 Foster, Rube           81  95.3%
5 Gibson, Josh           81  95.3%
5 Lloyd, Pop             81  95.3%
8 Dihigo, Martin         80  94.1%
8 Stearnes, Turkey       80  94.1%
8 Wells, Willie          80  94.1%
11 Dandridge, Ray        79  92.9%
11 Rogan, Bullet         79  92.9%
13 Suttles, Mule         77  90.6%
13 Williams, Smokey Joe  77  90.6%
15 Johnson, Judy         76  89.4%
16 Day, Leon             75  88.2%
17 Mackey, Biz           66  77.6%
18 Foster, Willie        65  76.5%
19 Irvin, Monte          63  74.1%
20 Torriente, Cristobal  59  69.4%
21 Redding, Dick         54  63.5%
22 Santop, Lou           53  62.4%
23 Posey, Cumberland     50  58.8%
24 Manley, Effa          45  52.9%
25 Wilkinson, J.L.       44  51.8%
26 O'Neil, Buck          43  50.6%
26 Wilson, Jud           43  50.6%
28 Smith, Hilton         41  48.2%
29 Lundy, Dick           40  47.1%
30 Doby, Larry           39  45.9%
30 Greenlee, Gus         39  45.9%
32 Radcliffe, Ted        38  44.7%
33 Taylor, Ben           36  42.4%
34 Mendez, Jose          35  41.2%
35 Allen, Newt           34  40.0%
35 Beckwith, John        34  40.0%
35 White, Sol            34  40.0%
38 Jethroe, Sam          33  38.8%
39 DeMoss, Bingo         32  37.6%
39 Petway, Bruce         32  37.6%
39 Trouppe, Quincy       32  37.6%

 
   11. OCF Posted: July 03, 2004 at 11:36 PM (#715270)
Note that Effa Manley and Gus Greenlee drew votes. That must mean that no distinction is being made between players and non-players. Given that, we can't really tell what the vote for Rube Foster means.
   12. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 04, 2004 at 12:25 AM (#715323)
Note that Effa Manley and Gus Greenlee drew votes. That must mean that no distinction is being made between players and non-players. Given that, we can't really tell what the vote for Rube Foster means.

I agree. BTW, J.L. Wilkinson is another name that indicates the survey includes non-players.
   13. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: July 04, 2004 at 02:17 AM (#715536)
I don't think Cum Posey did much playing either.
   14. Kelly in SD Posted: July 04, 2004 at 04:02 AM (#715686)
This may not be the right place for this comment, but I think people might see it here. Buck O'Neil and Dave Winfield were talking on the Padres broadcast about the Negro League HoF. They mentioned there are only about 250 former Negro Leaguers still alive out of about 2600 who played. Wow. That is an amazing living history resource that will soon be gone. All fans of the current game will lose something when the last one dies. Also, I want to thank all those involved with researching and publishing a more complete historical record of the Negro Leagues.
   15. yest Posted: November 25, 2004 at 09:16 AM (#981852)
can you please make a thread for
Oscar Charleston,Bill Foster, Judy Johnson, and Dick Lundy now.
   16. KJOK Posted: November 25, 2004 at 10:45 PM (#982498)
and Oms also?
   17. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 26, 2004 at 05:16 PM (#983034)
can you please make a thread for
Oscar Charleston,Bill Foster, Judy Johnson, and Dick Lundy now.


When they are eligible, I'll create threads for them. Let's not rush things too quickly, yest. :-)

and Oms also?

No problem.
   18. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: November 29, 2004 at 10:59 AM (#986118)
You know what would be cool if someone wants to take on a project? Go through all of the year-by-year WS equivalencies that have been given for all of these guys, and list them year by year - it would kind of give us an idea of who the best players in each league were at any given time, etc. . . . I just don't have the time to do it, but it'd be neat to see!
   19. TomH Posted: November 29, 2004 at 02:44 PM (#986167)
weighing stats versus opinions

(not sure of the best place for this, but I decided here was a agood as any)

In the world of 2004, how much weight do I put in the numbers I can find in bb-ref.com, WARP, Win Shares, etc., versus what "other" information I know about a player? Offhand, I'd say in our info- and anaylsis-rich environs, it's about 95% hard data, 5% opinion.

My quandry is much bigger when it comes to guys like Beckwith. Not a 'consensus' Negro League great, but the numbers imply he could mash. Okay, so which is the better data source? On the one hand, we have data that suggest reasons WHY he doesn't appear on many "lists" - too much emphasis on defense, lack of single position he played; this helps in interpretation. On the other hand, how good are the numbers? What percentage of Beckwith's career do we have data for? How much "other" info is missing, which might clue us in to why Boom-Boom wasn't quite the player his stats suggest?

If I split my ballot 50-50 on facts/opinions, Beckwith is going to have trouble moving up my HoM ballot. But I way-less-than-sure about where he belongs. Part of it is I haven't made the time to digest all the info you all have generated; and it's troubling enough to me that I wonder if I can in good conscience submit a ballot that likely won't include Beckwith, simply because of my own lack of time spent in consderation.
   20. TomH Posted: December 01, 2004 at 06:09 PM (#989523)
Wow. 50+ hours of crickets chirping.
   21. Chris Cobb Posted: December 01, 2004 at 06:50 PM (#989620)
I'm posting a response on the Beckwith thread.
   22. sunnyday2 Posted: December 01, 2004 at 07:22 PM (#989687)
Tom, I know how you feel. Happens to me whenever I get too philosophical.

I think contemporary opinion is important even when we have lots of statistical evidence about a player. I mean, figgers lie and liars figger.

As for Beckwith specifically, I kinda disagree with Chris. Beckwith's reputation is not commensurate with his batting numbers, though I think the reasons for that are clear enough. Not just his attitude, but the fact that he did not have a single primary position, and the fact that he played with independent teams outside the NeL itself for several years.

I would say he is the anti-Pete Hill, Hill having the huge reputation and the numbers that just didn't add up.

But back to Beckwith, his numbers are impressive but I am inclined to give him more of a discount than some of the others. His value was not as well appreciated at the time, and so I appreciate it a little less today. He is #15 on my ballot this week.
   23. KJOK Posted: December 11, 2004 at 04:37 AM (#1012229)
Just in case someone could possibly miss it over on Primer, article on the hopefully forthcoming Negro League Encyclopedia/database:

Negro Leagues Stats Article in Denver Post
   24. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 11, 2004 at 03:57 PM (#1012910)
KJOK, thanks for that article, it was a good read. Man, can't wait for those numbers to make it to the bookshelves!
   25. KJOK Posted: December 23, 2004 at 03:57 AM (#1037383)
We're still a few years away from any worthy Japanese players, but wanted to capture this link now in case someone wants to think ahead:

Japanese Possibilities for HOM/HOF
   26. KJOK Posted: January 12, 2005 at 06:25 AM (#1074006)
The New ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia 2005 coming out in February advertises:

"Comprehensive Negro League records section (NEW)"

Not sure what 'comprehensive' means, but sounds interesting....
   27. Paul Wendt Posted: January 14, 2005 at 01:31 AM (#1078235)
KJOK:
Just in case someone could possibly miss it over on Primer, article on the hopefully forthcoming Negro League Encyclopedia/database

I don't think it is an encyclopedia or database yet, but research materials (5000 pages includes copies of boxscores?) and compilations that will be available to researchers at the HOF library.

cited article:
_ The research will be given later this month to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, N.Y.
_ Eventually, it will become part of the hall's statistical and narrative history of black baseball since the Civil War.
_ "This isn't just about baseball and numbers, it's about how this game related to society at the time, how baseball was such a rich part of black culture," says Jim Gates, the Hall of Fame's library director who wants the statistics published.


I don't believe the 5000 page "volume" is a candidate for publication. But I may be wrong. Who knows how many Total Baseball size pages that is.
   28. KJOK Posted: January 14, 2005 at 01:36 AM (#1078246)
Paul:

At one point, this project was SUPPOSED to produce an electronic database and an encyclopedia, see the bottom of the page at:

Out of the Shadows HOF/SABR Research Project

Of course, there's been no updates posted since about a year ago, so the output goals may have changed...
   29. Paul Wendt Posted: January 14, 2005 at 05:30 PM (#1079622)
(Re hot topics: I often post a wet blanket in order to have the last word.)

In 1943 Ballot Discussion #82 , Gary A describes the scope of box scores and game stories during the Negro Leagues era.

KJ,
No, that change in goals would be a big retreat and big news, given the prominence of the project: funded by MLB and administered by NBHOFM, plus other reasons within SABR. But I doubt that presentation of the 5000p volume means the project is nearly complete.

Gary A,
Are you involved in the project led by Larry Lester, et al?
If not, do you feel the pressure to publish quickly?
   30. Paul Wendt Posted: January 14, 2005 at 05:34 PM (#1079634)
Sincerely, I guess that with inferred bases on balls Gary A has more playing data than the big project does, for those games he is able to cover.
   31. Gary A Posted: January 15, 2005 at 12:09 AM (#1080658)
Paul, yes, I've worked for the Out of the Shadows project, but I'm not actively involved right now. They've recently finished inputting box scores, and Larry says "stay tuned" for news on the encyclopedia project. I'm not sure exactly what they're planning or what the time frame is, but my impression has always been that they intend a full, published encyclopedia. When it appears, it will transform the study of the Negro Leagues in much the same way that the Macmillan encyclopedia transformed the study of baseball in general.

Actually, for walks the Out of the Shadows project does pretty much the same thing I do. So the encyclopedia, however it appears, will have as much walk data as can be gotten out of the box scores.

I'm continuing independently compiling Negro League stats; I keep track of stats that Out of the Shadows won't have, notably fielding statistics (they have errors and games played at each position), pitchers' home runs allowed, and batters' hit by pitch.
   32. KJOK Posted: January 15, 2005 at 12:32 AM (#1080691)
but my impression has always been that they intend a full, published encyclopedia

Maybe I was just inferring this, but seems if there is going to be a full, published encyclopedia that you would almost HAVE to have first a database created from which to publish from?
   33. Paul Wendt Posted: January 15, 2005 at 03:51 AM (#1080990)
Certainly. Even in 1969, it wasn't economical to produce a full encyclopedia --as we understand it since 1969!-- without a computer database. Conversely, we had a full encyclopedia almost as soon as it was economically feasible to have one. Read about ICI and the 1968-1969 production of The Baseball Encyclopedia, MacMillan 1969, in the introduction to that first edition ("Mac1").

But look at how much S.C. Thompson did in The Official Encyclopedia of Baseball (1951, etc) and in All-Time Rosters of Major League Baseball (1967).
It's mind-boggling and hand-cramping

Will the database be guarded and leased to such players as the publishers of encyclopedias, web and print? I guess so, but I'm guessing.

My original point was that delivery of 5000 pages to the Hall of Fame sounds to me like delivery of intermediate findings, and hence a substantial progress report --$op for a big research grant?

So I think John Murphy has a better chance of seeing Deadball Stars of the American League in his Christmas stocking.
   34. KJOK Posted: January 15, 2005 at 04:56 AM (#1081084)
My original point was that delivery of 5000 pages to the Hall of Fame sounds to me like delivery of intermediate findings, and hence a substantial progress report --$op for a big research grant?

So I think John Murphy has a better chance of seeing Deadball Stars of the American League in his Christmas stocking.


Good point Paul. I was probably being overly optimistic thinking something might be available in either electronic or published form this year.
   35. KJOK Posted: February 04, 2005 at 03:28 AM (#1123728)
More info on what will be in the new ESPN BASEBALL ENCYCLOPEDIA 2005 regarding Negro League stats:

Comprehensive Negro League records section, including:

Top 100 Negro League player list with extensive biographical information, years and teams played for, and capsule biographies

Ex Post Facto MVP, Pitcher of the Year, and Rookie of the Year Awards for black baseball from 1910-1950

Year-by-year standings for all eight Negro major leagues

Details of every East-West All-Star Game

Game scores for Negro League postseason series

Home ballparks for all Negro League teams
   36. Paul Wendt Posted: February 04, 2005 at 03:54 PM (#1124294)
Maybe Jim Furtado can get a review copy for BaseballThinkFactory and Gary A can identify and assess the statistical base!
   37. Gary A Posted: February 05, 2005 at 05:18 AM (#1125778)
I'd love to do that.
   38. Paul Wendt Posted: February 05, 2005 at 08:46 PM (#1126801)
This info may be generally educational regarding baseball biographical, employment and playing data, both contemporary practices and modern editorial decisions. I'm sure it pertains to some Negro League seasons and some NeL reference books.

W.C. Madden, The Women of the AAGPBL: a Biographical Dictionary (McFarland 2005). From the 2-page "Brief History":
>>
The league kept good statistics only on players who played more than 10 games in a season. So statistics on some players are unavailable.
[contempory game records not researched or don't exist?]
While MLB considers only players who played in a game, the AAGPBL Players Association considers anyone who signed a contract as a player in the league.
[what defines a "player" elsewhere?]
Some 700 players signed contracts with the league, but no complete record has been compiled on those contracts.
[common, I'm sure]
The league did not keep accurate records on all players who played or were signed to contracts.
[which leagues did so? which league records are available?]
This book does not include information on players in which only partial names were uncovered during research.
[not even a list! unusual decision? What about the Record Book?]
This book does account for more than 600 of the players who signed contracts.
[why no precise count of who signed & who played?]
<<


W.C. Madden is also the co/author of The AAGPBL Record Book (2000), Baseball's First-Year Player Draft (2001), The Western League (2002), and The College World Series (2004). I don't know any of these books and in each case I am interested to know, in general terms, the problem of incomplete contemporary data and the decision about what to publish today. --Paul Wendt (pgw@theworld.com)

Bill Madden leads the Indianapolis "Oscar Charleston" Chapter, SABR.
   39. Paul Wendt Posted: February 05, 2005 at 09:03 PM (#1126823)
related to some blacball themes discussed here!

Jerrold Casway, Ed Delahanty and the Emerald Age of Baseball (U Notre Dame Press 2004). From the slip cover:
>>
Delahanty's career spanned the last decades of the [19c] during a time when the sons of post-famine Irish refugees dominated the sport and changed the playing style of America's national pastime. Irish-American players comprised [30-50%] of all players, managers, and team captains. Baseball for Delahanty and other young Irishmen was a ticket out of poverty and into a life of fame and fortune.
<<
   40. KJOK Posted: February 24, 2005 at 12:28 AM (#1162071)
Don't know how I missed this originally, but the I9 site actually did have SOME info on how their MLE's were produced:

Background Information
This entry is designed to give additional information about the methodology used to arrive at the i9's projections.

As you may guess, this is, at best, an inexact science. The projections are the result of much hard work, much inference, and much guesswork. The primary factors used include:




Available Statistics. These are available, in various snapshots, from many sources. Careful attention was paid to small sample sizes, and to consistency across sources.

Biographical Data. Player's reputations are built on something. Often, by close reading of multiple sources, it is possible to separate the rose colored glasses of history from true ability.

Secondary Data. All of the other info we have. For example, Louis Santop was, for a time in the 'teens, the highest paid NeL player. That is indicative--especially considering the structure of the leagues at the time--of his being among, if not the best player in the league. Good hitters would bat, most often, in the 2nd through 5th spot of the lineup. If a guy hit 7th and 8th for most of his career in the NeL, he probably couldn't hit acceptably in MLB.



There are several underlying assumptions that guide the modeling process. Some of these (I will add to this list as I have conversations with folks that remind me of them) are:




The quality of NeL play increased over time, with position players ahead of the pitching talent, at least until the early 1920's.

The quality of NeL and Cuban League play was inferior, overall, to MLB play. As a rule, NeL statistics have to be reduced--sometimes quite drastically.

The best NeL players would be among the best MLB players.

The lower end NeL players would not make the cut to play in MLB



Note that, from the beginning, our goal is not to claim we somehow know what these players would have done. If, at the end of the day, we can look at the projections and say that we have gotten the shape of their careers correct, that, yes, Pete Hill and HR Johnson were great players, regardless of whether we are correct that Hill hit .322 in 1907, that, at the close of day, Johnson was a legitimate MVP candidate a few times in his career and a borderline HoF candidate, that will be success.
08.27.2003
   41. KJOK Posted: April 21, 2005 at 06:59 AM (#1275525)
The 2005 ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia has rankings for the Non-HOF Negro Leaguers in 4 categories as Follows:

HALL OF FAME-CALIBER CAREERS
1. Biz Mackey
2. Pete Hill
3. Dick Lundy
4. Christobal Torriente
5. Jud Wilson
6. Louis Santop
7. Mule Suttles
8. Willard Brown
9. Dick Redding
10. Spot Poles
11. Ben Taylor
12. Newt Allen
13. John Beckwith
14. Ray Brown
15. Bingo DeMoss
16. Bill Wright
17. Sammy Hughes
18. Oliver Marcelle
19. Bill Byrd
20. Home Run Johnson

SHORT BUT BRILLIANT CAREERS
1. Roy Campanella
2. Dave Brown
3. CHino Smith
4. Dobie Moore
5. Slim Jones
6. Artie Wilson

OTHER ALL-TIME GREATS
1. Double Duty Radcliffe
2. Piper Davis
3. Alex Radcliffe
4. John Donaldson
5. Jose Mendez
6. Nip Winters
7. Clint Thomas
8. Vic Harris
9. George Scales
10. BIll Monroe
11. Buck O'Neil
12. Sasm Bankhead
13. Rap Dixon
14. Andy COoper
15. Fats Jenkins
16. BRuce Petway
17. Frank Duncan
18. Larry BRown
19. Frank Warfield
20. Jimmie Lyons
21. Chester Brooks
22. Alejandro Oms
23. Neil Robinson
24. Henry Kimbro
25. Gene Benson
26. Chaney WHite
27. Jimmie Crutchfield
28. Jelly Gardner
29. Dizzy Dismukes
30. Ted Trent
31. George Shively
32.Verdell Mathis
33. Dave Barnhill
34. Chet Brewer
35. Frank Wickware
36. Luis Tiant
37. Barney Brown
38. Roy Parnell
39. George Carr
40. Ted Strong
41. Tommy Sampson
42. Howard Easterling
43. Frank Earle
44. Heavy Johnson

LONG AND DISTINGUISHED CAREERS
1. Leroy Grant
2. Rev Cannady
3. Dick Seay
4. Dave Malarcher
5. William Bell
6. Hurley McNair
7. BIll Holland
8. Nat Rogers
9. Steel Arm Davis
10. BIll Francis
11. Frank Duncan
12. Jerry Benjamin
   42. sunnyday2 Posted: April 21, 2005 at 03:16 PM (#1275948)
Faxcinating. I would have to say that ESPN has done a hell of a job here. Not that there aren't nits and nats. On the top list, they may have underrated Torriente, Wilson, Suttles and Santop, not to mention Beckwith, but OTOH perhaps we are underrating Mackey and Lundy.

I feel fairly sure they are underrating HR Johnson.

Interesting that at 2B they come up with Allen over DeMoss with Hughes a close third (and all three very close).

On the second list, Campy is an anomaly and Dave Brown is a pitcher/murderer. That leaves Smith, who only played 5 years of elite ball, and Dobie Moore, who played 10 or more. Moore's career, IOW, was brilliant, but not that short.

On the third list, they clearly miss on the old-timers for the same reason they miss on HR Johnson. Mendez and Monroe clearly belong higher up on that list. And probably Chet Brewer.

On the fourth list, one would like to know more about Leroy Grant and Rev Cannady.
   43. sunnyday2 Posted: April 21, 2005 at 03:17 PM (#1275954)
PS. Kevin, did they say how or WHO came up with the lists?
   44. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: April 21, 2005 at 03:55 PM (#1276031)
I don't know much about Pee Wee Butts, but I would have thought he would have been on these lists (didn't see his name, doesn't mean I didn't miss it). Also, no mention of Bonnie Serrell which seems odd, but maybe that's because he was in Mexico so long.

The great thing about these lists, though, is that it's just getting those names out there for some much-belated recognition!
   45. KJOK Posted: April 21, 2005 at 08:13 PM (#1277095)
PS. Kevin, did they say how or WHO came up with the lists?

They mention that Mr. Riley contributed to the Negro League section, so I would probably assume it's primarily his rankings.
   46. Carl G Posted: April 21, 2005 at 09:09 PM (#1277296)
'I don't know much about Pee Wee Butts, but I would have thought he would have been on these lists (didn't see his name, doesn't mean I didn't miss it).'

I don't know how you'd miss a name like PeeWee Butts.
   47. KJOK Posted: May 22, 2005 at 12:31 AM (#1353114)
I now have files that list all the major negro league teams plus their primary stadium AND information on those parks. I will post it to the HOM yahoo egroup.
   48. KJOK Posted: June 15, 2005 at 04:57 AM (#1405422)
I can't find which thread, but somewhere recently someone asked about "independent" Negro League teams, contraction, etc. in the 1930's, so below is a list of all the major Independent/Other League teams by year:

1930 IND BBSBBS Baltimore Black Sox
1930 INDBRGBRG Brooklyn Royal Giants
1930 INDCOKCOK Columbus Keystones
1930 INDCSECSE Cuban Stars East
1930 INDGUGGUG Gilkerson's Union Giants
1930 INDHGHG Pittsburgh Homestead Grays
1930 INDHGHG Pittsburgh Homestead Grays
1930 INDHILHIL Philadelphia Hilldale Giants
1930 INDNLGNLG New York Lincoln Giants
1930 INDPCPC Pittsburgh Crawfords
1930 INDPRCPRC Pennsylvania Red Caps of NY
1930 INDWQGWQG Wilmington Quaker Giants
1931 INDACAC Atlantic City Bacharach Giants
1931 INDBBBBBB Birmingham Black Barons
1931 INDBBSBBS Baltimore Black Sox
1931 INDBRGBRG Brooklyn Royal Giants
1931 INDCBLCBL Chattanooga Black Lookouts
1931 INDCGCG Chicago Giants
1931 INDCIGCIG Cincinnati Giants
1931 INDCLBCLB Columbia CAG
1931 INDCSWCSW Cuban Stars West
1931 INDDSPS Detroit Giants
1931 INDHLSHLS Harlem Stars
1931 INDHODHOD Cuban House of David
1931 INDKCMKCM Kansas City Monarchs
1931 INDKXGKXG Knoxville Giants
1931 INDNBNB Newark Browns
1931 INDNBYNBY New York Black Yankees
1931 INDNLGNLG New York Lincoln Giants
1931 INDPCPC Pittsburgh Crawfords
1931 INDPRCPRC Pennsylvania Red Caps of NY
1931 INDSABSAB Santop's Broncos
1931 INDWQGWQG Wilmington Quaker Giants
1932 INDACAC Atlantic City Bacharach Giants
1932 INDBRGBRG Brooklyn Royal Giants
1932 INDCCGCCG Cole's CAG
1932 INDCSWCSW Cuban Stars West
1932 INDFMGFMG Foster Memorial Giants
1932 INDGUGGUG Gilkerson's Union Giants
1932 INDHBGHBG Harrisburg Giants
1932 INDHODHOD Cuban House of David
1932 INDKCMKCM Kansas City Monarchs
1932 INDNBYNBY New York Black Yankees
1932 INDPCPC Pittsburgh Crawfords
1932 INDPRCPRC Pennsylvania Red Caps of NY
1933 INDABCABC Indianapolis ABCs
1933 INDABTABT Akron Black Tyrites
1933 INDACAC Atlantic City Bacharach Giants
1933 INDBASBAS Baltimore Stars
1933 INDBBBBBB Birmingham Black Barons
1933 INDCLGCOT Cleveland Giants
1933 INDCSECSE Cuban Stars East
1933 INDCSWCSW Cuban Stars West
1933 INDHGHG Pittsburgh Homestead Grays
1933 INDKCMKCM Kansas City Monarchs
1933 INDLRCLRC Louisville Red Caps
1933 INDMRSMRS Memphis Red Sox
1933 INDNBYNBY New York Black Yankees
1933 INDNDND Newark Dodgers
1933 INDNOCNOC New Orleans Crescent Stars
1933 INDPRCPRC Pennsylvania Red Caps of NY
1933 INDPSPS Philadelphia Stars
1934 INDBBBBBB Birmingham Black Barons
1934 INDCSECSE Cuban Stars East
1934 INDCTCT Cincinnati Tigers
1934 INDHGHG Pittsburgh Homestead Grays
1934 INDJRCJRC Jacksonville Red Caps
1934 INDKCMKCM Kansas City Monarchs
1934 INDMRSMRS Memphis Red Sox
1934 INDNBYNBY New York Black Yankees
1934 INDNOCNOC New Orleans Crescent Stars
1934 INDPCGPCG Padrone's Cuban Giants
1934 INDPILPIL Washington Pilots
1934 INDPRCPRC Pennsylvania Red Caps of NY
1934 INDZLUZLU Zulu Cannibal Giants
1935 INDACAC Atlantic City Bacharach Giants
1935 INDCTCT Cincinnati Tigers
1935 INDDECDEC Detroit Cubs
1935 INDHACHAC Havana Cubans
1935 INDKCMKCM Kansas City Monarchs
1935 INDZLUZLU Zulu Cannibal Giants
1936 INDACAC Atlantic City Bacharach Giants
1936 INDBBBBBB Birmingham Black Barons
1936 INDBRGBRG Brooklyn Royal Giants
1936 INDCTCT Cincinnati Tigers
1936 INDKCMKCM Kansas City Monarchs
1936 INDMRSMRS Memphis Red Sox
1936 INDSLSSLS St. Louis Stars
1936 INDZLUZLU Zulu Cannibal Giants

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