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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Sunday, February 19, 2006
Nellie Fox
Eligible in 1971.
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Reader Comments and Retorts
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Generally, I know, Davenport follows Dick Cramer in measuring league quality differences.
But I know that only where I know what it means; in principle, regarding interleague differences in offense and in defense. So I know that approach for interleague differences in batting quality and in pitching quality only if "batting" is offense and "pitching" is defense. In a more complex model, where batting and baserunning cooperate to score runs, pitching and fielding cooperate to prevent runs, I don't know the approach.
I suspect that Davenport has hacked his own path through the brush in order to infer both a fielding difference and a pitching difference from the data that bears pretty clearly only on defense, namely scoring data. (He leaves batting and baserunning conflated, I think, and that's fine by me.)
As to Nellie Fox, this could be argued either way. For those who uae RCAP, a nay-sayer might point out that RCAP overstates Nellie's value just because other second sackers happened to hit poorly in his career. OTOH, one could postulate his value as a smooth-fielding pivotman was enhanced because it was tougher to find a good 2Bman, and so his mediocre bat should be held less against him; hence, his many all-star and 'best 2Bman' accolades represent true value to his team.
Oh, and BTW, it's not as if there hasn't been a bit of discussion on this player.
Thanks!
True, but there is a lot of other stuff on this thread. Unfortunately I can't easily read what I wrote myself; it needs more study.
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from the 1997 Ballot thread
112. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: April 16, 2007 at 01:04 PM (#2336250)
I do find the support for Fox, a second baseman, over all-time great defensive shortstops with similar OPS+ like Concepción, Rizzuto, and Bancroft entirely inscrutable--given equal bats, the preference has to go to the player whose defensive value is overwhelmingly superior.
I suppose Fox supporters agree with that generalization about batting for Bancroft only, and he did not play every day like Fox. Many voters do value playing "every day" and Fox is in the second tier there, where the first tier is Gehrig, Ripken, and maybe Everett Scott.
BTW I rank Fox below those three. I thought he was a marginal choice for the Hall of Fame (As I thought of Rizzuto, whom I know how has the "lost peak" argument --a recognized argument for the Hall of Merit if not Fame-- that Fox does not have.)
I use OUTS (2662 for McGraw) as opposed to PA's for comparison, but here is McGraw vs. 'average' 3B:
McGraw
RC -1101
OWP - .727
PA - 4939
Average 3B
RC - 631
OWP - .493 (Note: WITH McGraw included)
PA - 4087
Thanks!
to bad there there all different players
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